Dev Discussion #18 - Class Demarcation

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Comments

  • I think not having a class identity really takes away from being attached to a certain character. Along with making your class decision at any given time not have much weight. With primary archtypes being locked, we would have a bit of that, but then we would still have the sub class to think of.

    I can think of two ways that the hybrids could work in that system. Either they would have flexibility yet be inferior in the specific, like being able to off tank or off heal, but be inferior compared to someone who chose to specialize in one, Or if i chose Tank as my primary archtype, i do so with the understanding that in some way, tanking will be my goal throughout that characters lifetime. And however that is accomplished will depend on what sub class i choose. Of those two i prefer the second.
  • AnvilAnvil Member
    edited May 22
    No, All Classes should not be able to do all things in their class. Specialization is the one thing I (personally) look forward to in Ashes of Creation. Whether as a Straight-up Class (Tank/Tank) or a Hybrid of two (Tank/Cleric). Each should have it's own Strengths, and Weaknesses. Each should have it's own Abilities, Damage Mitigation, and, Skillset. I.E. Paladin (Tank/Cleric) Holy Warrior, Heavy Armor, Good Mitigation, Excellent Aggro, Self Heal, Okay AOE, Some Magic or "Holy Spells".
    The Truth has 3 sides, Your Point of View, Their point of View, and The Actual Truth, so, Be careful How you wield the Sword of Truth, It Cuts 3 ways!
  • OnaldOnald Member
    edited May 23
    If every primary-secondary class combination is able to fulfill all roles, you will lose class identity. Therefore
    I agree with the posts by Damokles and ravnodaus that primary classes should have their own roles and that the description of these roles are not just limited to trinity: tanking, healing and dps. Every class could have a one or two of i.e. the following strengths: CC (could even be further split into, slow, stun, sleep etc.), buffs, debuffs, mobility, single target, AoE, sustained dps, burst dmg, ranged, healing (Cleric), tanking (Tank).
    Secondary classes would then modify or add skills to your character related to the strengths of that class. Players can then choose which strengths given by the primary and secondary class they want to specialize into using, talents, augments and gear. Like Caeryl mentioned I would expect a cleric with a secondary tank class to at least off-tank, if prepared with the appropriate gear, talents and augments, but then not being able to heal as effectively unless respecced/regeared. I would expect a rogue/mage to never be able to heal or tank, but maybe build more towards either AoE or single target damage or even CC. A Fighter-Tank would be able to dps or (off-)tank depending on the build. This way not every primary-secondary class combination can do everything, but you still have freedom to build your character in various ways depending on the needs of the content. I think respeccing should be relatively easy / unpunished (like just going to a town) and in my opinion class swapping should then be impossible. (Aside from that you might be able to try a few secondary classes for a short time before locking them in)

    The usefulness of the primary-secondary class combinations also depends on the content, like some people already mentioned. For bosses that does a lot of magic damage you might want a Cleric with Mage or Bard as their secondary class or for a boss fight that consists of two individual bosses a character with the secondary Tank class could be great as an off-tank. Also for doing quests with some friends you might not need a full tank or healer but a Summoner-Cleric would be able to heal your friends if needed.

    Just my opinion, let me know what you think or if I missed something that might be a problem with this approach. Cheers.










  • AuronAuron Member, Founder
    Since we can't swap our main archetype on-the-fly, it would be frustrating to cancel a dungeon run because you don't have a Guardian (Tank+Tank) online. You should give possibility of tanking to Fighter or Mage class for example. If they augment their secondary archetype into tanking, they should be able to semi-decently tank an average difficulty boss/dungeon. Let them add another healer to the party and go.

    Although there should be a limit on what they can and cannot tank. You should require a real tank (Guardian) for a dragon boss for example.

    Quite some time ago you've mentioned unique tricks for each archetype. For example Ranger could cover tracks and Mage could make invisible paths come to light. These unique tricks should stay unique to that class. However, don't make it so that you cant continue a dungeon because you don't have a Ranger. Having one should give ~small extra rewards after you find the secret path and open an extra chest for example.

    This was all PvE focused suggestions. Now if we get to the PvP part... It's more of a teamplay. Every 64 class should have something unique to bring to a raid... Somehow...
    Auronsyg.png
  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds
    The only thing I have to state in this is that, if you make a player sacrifice some aspect of power/time/fun to be able to do something that only they can do if they make that choice, and then make that choice irrelevant later, its going to frustrate them, and make them resent you, but not only that it will make them resent the trust they gave you, and your new direction or focus will to them mean more opportunities for betraying trust or effort they think they earned doing something...
  • MosephMoseph Member
    In my opinion (and everyone has one), I would like to see the primary classes locked, while the secondary classes would be switchable but with a cost. As in you would have to go to a class trainer or something to unlearn your secondary, and the cost would be either the ingame currency, rabbits asses, troll tongues or whatever. If it's not the ingame currency, the items required should be available for purchase from either a vender or player via a market stall or auction house or be craftable.

    A primary tank should be a better tank than any other class who's secondary is a tank. A Paladin(tank/cleric) should be a better tank than an Apostle(cleric/tank), while the Apostle should be a better healer than the Paladin. Could an Apostle tank for a party doing quests or missions... sure why not. Should they be able to tank for a flashpoint or instance... I don't think so. Now could a Dreadnought (fighter/tank) tank for a flashpoint or instance? Sure. Should a Dreadnought be able to tank for a raid or nightmare/hardcore version of a instance or flashpoint? No. Now you could "off tank" for crowd control or be used briefly when tank switching is required, but your primary is a fighter, not a tank. I believe a Dreadnought in full plate might be even with a Paladin in lets say half plate, mitigation and health wise, but they just wont have the same skills and abilities so wont be able to keep aggro as a tank does.

    As a tank, I shouldn't be able to deal as much damage as the typical DPS class. Does that mean leveling will take me longer than other classes due to the XP time to kill ratio... yup. Because of this, I would secondary into a DPS class while leveling and then switch to a different secondary for end game content or as needed by my guild.

    I think the primary and secondary classes are a great idea, but being able to swap between classes (as in FF) basically made my character no more or less valuable than any other character. The only difference between everyone was the visible appearance.
  • eroenneeroenne Member
    I hate the idea every class can do everything. I would say up until level 20 or so and classes start to settle into their roles. I like the idea of guilds being important. Forces community upon the game. Make people play together and forge new friendships. Healers shouldn't be able to solo. Nor should any other class. Find some friends, find a guild, terrorize Vera together!!
  • daryldshdaryldsh Member, Braver of Worlds
    I think being unique is most important aspect of all classes. Even within the same class I want to be different than other players. Outfits are not what separates me but the stats those outfits give me. My playstyle might be a preach that runs really fast so I get to where I need to for rescue, while others focus on magic damage or heal. And to make that unique aspect to the character I think point system will help. Players will be choosing points to add on their VIT, STR, DEX, MANA, Wisdom, Speed, etc. I'm sure there will be a meta that dominates, but this gives the freedom to the player to create their unique class character.
  • TanerlornTanerlorn Member, Pioneer
    Okay so I'm of two minds with this.

    In an ideal world, everyone would perform as the class and role they're supposed to. Tanks would tank, etc. But in reality, MMOs never have even class distribution. You always have more Warriors or Mages than you do Priests or Shamans. The desirable classes for Raids and other group content are desirable because you can't find any bugger playing that class. Unless someone in your group volunteers to do it. Which means potentially levelling a character they don't find fun just because they need to fill a role in their guild.

    MMOs often remedy this by allowing classes to perform multiple roles, ie Warriors can spec into Fury for DPS, Prot for Tanking, etc. So another class can fill a role if needs be but won't be as good as the specific class that specialises in that.

    An MMO I absolutely fucking hate is FFXIV because it just pigeon holes you into your class and you can't do anything but one thing. It's pretty bland And that thing gets dull after a while. But also, you can swap to any class you want provided you level it. Which also takes out a necessary social element of MMOs because you can just do everything except group content yourself. And group content in FFXIV is pretty lackluster as is. You can't ask around the forums or in game chat for a guy to fill that niche you need because you can just fill that niche yourself. More convenient but far less social. You never meet anyone new playing FFXIV. Nearly all the social aspects of an MMO are absent.

    I think the thing to remember is that MMOs should not be too convenient. Back in the EQ days, downtime was such a long, horrific time. But you passed it by socialising and meeting new people. Having experiences you wouldn't normally have in a themepark MMO with a rush towards loot. I'm not saying downtime should be as long as EQ but it should exist even though it's an inconvenience because it forces a player to try new things they wouldn't normally do. Such as fishing, housing, interacting with towns and such. And the same goes for classes too. Don't make it too convenient.

    I've waffled on, my tl/dr is this: Allow flexibility in Class makeup, but also make Roles matter so Players don't feel the need to wander. But also make the choices a player makes in their class matter too. Don't allow easy ways out.
  • Usually I prefer to just lurk on these forums, but this topic actually really interests me. I personally believe strongly in having designated roles for each class. As mentioned by many other people here if every class can perform every role then they all blend together and become uninteresting.

    That being said I do like the idea of having flexibility inside of each primary archetype. The primary archetype should determine your primary focus in the party. The secondary should give you slight flexibility in how you benefit the group. I view it as each of the trinity roles getting broken down into 3 variants (Full, Major, & Minor) of their initial design.

    For example Cleric/Cleric (High Priest) would be a full support class, but a Cleric/Tank (Apostle) would be a major support class, but also a minor tank class. This would let somebody who chose Cleric at the beginning have the flexibility to branch slightly out of playing pure support and give more of a distinct difference from a Tank/Cleric (Paladin).

    This allows for potential expansion later on down the line to give new class option to each archetype without stepping on the toes of already existing classes in that archetype. For example through DLC or expansions a mage may gain access to a new class such as a runemancer that is not tied to the class combination system. This one could be unique and allow them to become a major support class/minor dps class that would currently be unavailable to them in the base system.
  • ValfurValfur Member
    From what ive seen in all this, id have to agree with most, your first class should be your primary, but what most dont seem to understand, if one is great at healing, then taking a secondary class should give you an offset of that class and medic fields. What most seem to forget medics are not just good at healing but have extensive knowledge when it comes to poisons as well, so why not a cleric who has a secondary role as said rogue be able to use poisons a bit better then normal, after all they spent all that time learning to heal which means they know the vitals well enough to inflict the poison better.
  • RefletReflet Member, Braver of Worlds
    Valfur wrote: »
    From what ive seen in all this, id have to agree with most, your first class should be your primary, but what most dont seem to understand, if one is great at healing, then taking a secondary class should give you an offset of that class and medic fields. What most seem to forget medics are not just good at healing but have extensive knowledge when it comes to poisons as well, so why not a cleric who has a secondary role as said rogue be able to use poisons a bit better then normal, after all they spent all that time learning to heal which means they know the vitals well enough to inflict the poison better.

    I think that's the archetype rogue/cleric is meant for. 😉
  • vordanvordan Member
    Call me old fashioned, although i am very old, keep it simple.
    The more you mess about with creating different variations in archetypes for every class the more unbalance the classes become.
    In many Lores with elves,dwarves and wizards ..... etc Everyone has there place you dont get healers which cause huge damage and knights firing fire balls ... You get the idea.
    I'm in favour of saying turning your white wizard into a dark one, diffrent skill set up but im not in favour of having a wizard with both healing and damage.
    I like having a Tank to tank and a healer to heal, anyway just having my say
  • RefletReflet Member, Braver of Worlds
    Rift is the game (or one of them if others) where your character mix classes.
    The main class is called "soul tree" (can be fighter, mage, rogue, ranger,...) and buy leveling up you unlock "roots" which are secondary and third class you get skills/powers from, but different from the same class has primary class/tree.
    So if you want to get an idear of how the system may look like (from an other point of view but with years of uses).
    https://www.trionworlds.com/rift/en/game/classes/ascended-class-system/
  • RefletReflet Member, Braver of Worlds
    vordan wrote: »
    Call me old fashioned, although i am very old, keep it simple.
    The more you mess about with creating different variations in archetypes for every class the more unbalance the classes become.
    In many Lores with elves,dwarves and wizards ..... etc Everyone has there place you dont get healers which cause huge damage and knights firing fire balls ... You get the idea.
    I'm in favour of saying turning your white wizard into a dark one, diffrent skill set up but im not in favour of having a wizard with both healing and damage.
    I like having a Tank to tank and a healer to heal, anyway just having my say

    From my point of view, having classes fulfilling a single role, in long fights such as bosses, if the tank dies, everyone have to or will die.
    Mixing classes, even if the secondary class is lighter, may leave a chance (even a small one) to the group/raid to make it.
  • brothermaynardbrothermaynard Member, Leader of Men
    No. Each class (and specialisations within them) should feel and play very different from the others and have their own specific niche and scenarios at which they will excel. Many games these days either completely neglect the RPG aspect for the sake of homogeneous, 'balanced' classes that can fulfil almost any task - including WoW of the past 10 years - and suffer for it.

    It's fine to have a class or specialisation perform some tasks that would normally not be its main business; but that should nevertheless be only possible within the given archetype and only to a limited degree. A class should excel in a couple of specific tasks, be fairly incompetent (but still manage to produce something) in other archetype tasks and be completely hopeless in anything outside its archetype.

    For example an elementalist would perform at (somewhat arbitrary numbers) 100% in anything related to its primary element, 60% in other elementalist trees, 10% in other caster stuff and 0% in everything else.

    Or sticking to what we know about the AoC system, a Shadow Disciple might be able to produce a healing spell, but it will be nowhere near the levels of a High Priest (significantly higher cost, much longer cooldown, fraction of the full healing effect of a priest, etc.) - and will be completely unable to summon, conjure or enchant.

    Using secondary skills to boost your primary abilities would mix it up a little, of course, and give you a wider toolset, but not to an extent that you can now perform any role or replace other classes that are more suited to it.

    Assassins should excel in sneaking in and taking out critical targets without being noticed; adding secondary skills should give them more options to achieve that (e.g. overcome target's resistances, assassinate at a distance, etc.) - but not make them able to tank mobs, heal / bandage party, summon stuff or run to its targets with guns blazing.

    Keep the RPG element the core of this game.
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member
    I will state this once again.

    Class Identity is the key here, and by class I mean Tank, Cleric, Summoner, etc the 8 basic primaries. Everything else is just a flavor of that class/role. Games like ESO for instance, have spoiled people into thinking that they should be able to do everything. (ESO is also trash and is broken in more ways than I would like to write down.) When a class can do everything...it has no identity, it makes it bland and boring.

    When a class can do everything, everything is worthless.

    It follows the same concept as "When everyone is special no one is special."

    Tanks (as in TANK PRIMARIES) should be the only viable tanks.
    Clerics (CLERIC PRIMARIES) should be the only viable healers.

    I don't say this without extensive knowledge on the issues at hand. Hell WoW has Hybrids for a couple classes, but guess what, they don't get to do everything. WoW Paladin you're either a tank healer or dps...no matter what you are still one of those. Hell even it's basic warrior is either Tank or dps. But allowing you to be all three at once ( in the case of Paladin here) would severely take away from the class and the lore of it as well....throwing it's identity to the wind.

    I do not want this in Ashes.
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