Dev Discussion #18 - Class Demarcation

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Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.

Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!


Dev Discussion #18 - Class Demarcation
Should all classes be able to perform all roles expected of their archetype, or should there be clear demarcation of different categories?

Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding dungeon scaling!
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Comments

  • CM PatriotCM Patriot Member
    i think classes should be able to fill multiple roles that you can slot in and a fill when needed. it works well for wow.
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  • NarysNarys Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    edited May 6
    I believe they should be able to specialise specifically to perform different roles e.g. tank, healer, cc, support and have the capability, but it comes at the cost of neglecting other areas of their class. This was a part I really liked about RIFT as it allowed a lot of variety and playstyles.
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  • MetsunieMetsunie Member
    edited May 6
    I personally do not think EVERY 64 classes should do everything. I do not think it should be as restricted than most MMO although (like WoW) but giving everything removes some kind of flavor to each races. Like I do not think a duelist should heal, or a knight, or a trickster should not tank. There should be some "common sense" but other than that, variety is always good. Just not too much.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    edited May 6
    More weird and vague questions as part of the dev discussion series....

    I'm honestly not sure what you are asking here Toast, sorry.

    EDIT: For anyone else who is also confused here is an example from Toast from the discord:
    the question is more about - say you're a cleric, and clerics can tank/heal. should you be expected to do both if you play that character, or do you want to specialize?

    When I play a hybrid class that can fulfil multiple roles in a group, I make sure that I am able to fill all the available roles and be able to swap between them at a moment's notice. Obviously you are going to get some people who only ever want to play one role regardless of what their class can do.

    I guess the real question here is how easily should you be able to swap between the different roles should you choose to. Should you have to travel back to town and pay some gold, etc to swap roles like in WoW Classic, swap between 2 different roles/builds in the field like in WoW WotLK, or be able to change your role and load-out to whatever you like whenever you like outside of combat, like in modern WoW.

    Personally I think the dual talent system that was implemented into WoW WotLK is a good compromise but it kinda depends on the gameplay and what you'll be facing out in the field.
  • JahlonJahlon Member
    No.

    All classes should not be able to perform all roles. Tanks should be tanks, Healers should be healers and Damage Dealers should be the primary source of damage.

    As they said in Kingdom of Heaven:

    "A knight should be a knight, a monk... a monk, but not both"

    When you let everyone do everything you end up with meaningless classes.

    I still think Intrepid missed a golden opportunity when they locked Primary Classes. There is a reason why Archeage and FFXI/FFXIV are so popular in that you really connect with your character by not needing alts for combat classes, where you could change primary and master everything, but you had to do it independently.

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  • GaldreyiceGaldreyice Member
    Mains roles should be more defined than off roles. a cleric/cleric should be able to heal more than a summoner/cleric. in my opinion at least
  • Alpha SoulAlpha Soul Member, Phoenix Initiative, Avatar of the Phoenix
    edited May 6
    Personally I don't think all classes need to be able to perform all roles even within their archetype, they begin to lose their meaning and more importantly I think it takes away from the customization option

    Performing more than 1 role to me is fine, but I think there needs to be a reason to go down another specialization route allowing you to do more things from within your role, that's essentially the essence of choice.

    For Example: As a Tank you may be able to DPS to some extent , but you shouldn't be anywhere near as effective as a Tank who has put all his choices into DPS roles... that tank wouldn't fill the tank role as well, but could output more damage. If they all did dps well and tanked well.. where's the choice? Where's the differentiation?
  • smoovsmoov Member
    Main roles with sub roles that compliment said spec
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited May 7
    A good MMO class system should be similar to a good heist team.

    In order to rob the bank, you need:
    The Shot Caller
    The Driver
    The Safe Cracker
    The Hacker
    The Muscle
    And the Guy Whose a Last Minute Addition to Fill In.

    Each person serves their role, to make the heist run smooth, each person has a specialty that makes them important and valuable to the team. Everyone working together towards the same goal, empty that safe.

    The Safe doesn't get cracked without all these people working together, because their specialties each bring something to the table..

    And that's what at good MMO will do with their classes, in my opinion. You have each class specifically excel at what they should. If everyone is an individual, and not part of a team, then they act like an individual, and team play is only incidental.

    No one likes putting together a puzzle with perfectly square pieces. Each piece should be unique and fit into the total picture in a specific and meaningful way.
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  • Magic ManMagic Man Member
    No, classes should be what they represent. If you let all classes do everything then your choices simply have no meaning. I fully agree with jahlon till here
    Jahlon wrote: »

    All classes should not be able to perform all roles. Tanks should be tanks, Healers should be healers and Damage Dealers should be the primary source of damage.


    About changing the primary classes...It comes down to the same point; choices should matter. One shouldn't be able to do everything with one character.
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  • I think they way it should is if some people build/choose their class to be in one specific role then they should be really good at it. This means they would have a very narrow niche and high peak in terms of their effectiveness in their given role. However some players may decide to have multiple roles but be limited in how effective they can be in that role. This means they have a wide niche and a relatively low peak in terms of their effectinvess in their given roles. For balance reasons there should be limit in how wide they can spread out their niche/how many roles they can have. For ashes it might be that the niche that a class can have is relatively very narrow compared to other games. This is because too many games these days have classes that can do everything, meaning no classes feel unique. This also stops people grouping up as there is no need to have other players in the group to fill out missing roles. Every class should have strength and weakness and a specific role/s to fill (within a limited range or roles).
  • SeloSelo Member
    Each Archtype should ONLY be able to do their thing.
    If you pick a healing archtype, you should be a healer.
    If you pick a tank archtype, you should be a tank.

    As a raiding guild, we have had alot of problems in games where all archtypes could do everything.
    We recruit players based on their class to fill spots needed.
    Problems occur when down the line, people that were previously tanks or healers, all of a sudden only wants to play DPS.
    You end up with 99% DPS players and no tanks or healers.
    It has not happened in games where classes are restricted to their archtype, then players sticks to the class they initially picked much more.
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  • AntVictusAntVictus Member
    No. This was an issue we ran into in ESO, nightblades (rogues essentially) could tank, sorcs could tank, templars could tank, every damn class can tank. Same with healing, same with dmg. The whole concept of a role ie: tank, healer, dps, support encompasses a class and gives it an identity. So when you let every class do the same stuff, there is no class identity...might as well not even have classes at that point and just call everyone rocks.

    Feel free to say i'm wrong or whatever but, there should never be a situation in which any class can do everything, or two things equally. This comes down to the skills that are given to those classes, as well as other underlying factors, aggro generation and the ability to retain it or mitigate it, etc. So no, a rogue with a secondary as tank should not be able to tank, neither should a mage with the second of tank. The only tanks, should be tank primaries.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    Karthos wrote: »
    A good MMO class system should be similar to a good heist team.

    In order to rob the bank, you need:
    The Shot Caller
    The Driver
    The Safe Cracker
    The Hacker
    The Muscle
    And the Guy Whose a Last Minute Addition to Fill In.

    Each person serves their role, to make the heist run smooth, each person has a specificity that makes them important and valuable to the team. Everyone working together towards the same goal, empty that safe.

    The Safe doesn't get cracked without all these people working together, because their specialties.

    @Karthos You are...surprisingly knowledgeable about this kind of thing. Is there something you aren't telling us? :P
  • beyond89beyond89 Member
    My opinion is that you can be what class you desire by changeing bethween them. A good system Final Fantasy 14 has. You can play what you whant with 1 caracter with out the need of alts, and it`s working so good.
    We need to think about the time play that we are able to spend in the game, and from many years so far playing MMORPG when an alt is created to play a diferent class, it makes you feel burn out, like youre tired to play and just whant something else.
    Alt`s need to be a choise of pleasure, not a need to create them just because you whant to play a diferent class.
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  • Your primary archetype should dictate your role in whatever content you are playing. If you are a tank primary you should be thanking wether that's as the main or off tank roles. Your secondary archetype should be what helps you specialize how you play your role. Decisions should matter and if you give people a way to easily switch roles you lose the interdependency between players to build groups capable of completing all kinds of content.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    Kind of vague and my opinion varies depending on the role.

    For the damage archetypes, I'm assuming we are talking about things like AoE dps vs single target and possible magic vs physical. For Aoe vs single target, I think every damage class should be able to do both but some classes excel at one or the other. I'd expect mage to be better range aoe then ranger but ranger still to have something like volley or explosive arrow to contribute to AoE damage. Maybe an exception for ranger/mage only being outclassed by mage/mage. For magic/physical, I'd want primary archetype to play a big role but gear and secondary archetype to be able to augment it a little more.

    For healing/support, I think it should be a little more specialized. Not 100% what that looks like but I'm not sure if I'd have every class with the same access to hots/single target/aoe heals/buffs/support skills.

    For tanks, I guess my opinion is similar to dps with where they can do it all but certain combinations excel at certain mitigations/threat generating. The exception might be tank/ranger and maybe tank/mage would be the only ones that can effectively do range tanking if that's a thing.
  • xilodonxilodon Member
    It would have been helpful to give some examples for this question, because it looks like it's being interpreted a few different ways.

    When Steven mentioned that the party size would be 8 to represent an expectation that an 'ideal' party would strive to have one of each archetype, my main concern was that each one would be too uniquely suited to its role and make a more mixed party composition less viable.

    While we obviously don't want to see a situation where everybody can do everything and party comp doesn't matter beyond having enough tanks and healers, I'd rather not be in a situation where group content gets stalled constantly because parties are struggling to fill every unique sub-role (IE only Bards can provide X essential buff, only rogues can provide Y essential crowd control, etc).

    If you're defining 'role' as simply the tank/heal/dps trinity, I'm not too concerned about only the 'tank' and 'cleric' primary archetypes being able to fill those roles (but if certain classes can take them as a secondary archetype and be viable off tanks/healers, I'm ok with that too). If it's going to end up more granular with certain buffs or utility spells being essential for progress, I'd rather see each of those things available to a decent variety of archetypes/classes so we don't end up with excessively picky group compositions. A party of 8 for any given content should always have 1-3 'open' slots that can be filled with whatever player you have available without feeling like you're missing some essential utility because you brought multiple players of the same archetype/class.
  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member
    I want specific roles and I don't.
    Why? Because I mostly play healers. In Rift I was able to heal any raids/dungeons with my spec for healing. Then I could switch to DPS to do some solo content, farm, etc.

    This game has PvP. If I go out on my own to farm or do some quest, I need some protection. If a DPS is gonna come and kill me in 2 shots, then my healer has no reason to leave town.

    I always had this feeling than being a healer/tank just makes you roll an alt when you want to do random pvp or quests in zones that require PvP.
    You're either un-killable as healer/tank, or you just die.

    I understand the need and flavor of single roles, but there must be a way. I don't enjoy carrying 40 pieces of armor to switch specs, but I also don't enjoy not being able to kill anyone.

    This is not a tabletop game like Pathfinder where you're expected to always be with your party. There you can surely take the approach of the pure healer/support, zero damage character, that on its own can't do much damage-wise.

    Many will say "but that is your role, to heal". Then why would I leave town if I'm defendless on my own?
  • PendragxnPendragxn Member
    edited May 8
    Should all classes be able to perform all roles expected of their archetype or should there be clear demarcation “the action of fixing the boundary or limits of something” of different categories?

    According to the Ashes of Creation Wiki as well as this comment from Steven. “As a player progresses with their primary archetype (primary class), they will have the opportunity to choose a secondary archetype to augment their primary skills with effects from their secondary archetype (secondary class). The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a Class.”

    Archetype' combination and 'Class System this is the result of combining two of the 8 Primary Classes or Archetypes, this presents players with (8x8 = 64) combinations and hybrid playable classes.

    Traditional Role and Trinity System Tank, DPS and Support/Healer

    This gives us 4 Primary Roles 4x4 = 16 hybrid roles.
    • Tank
    • DPS
    • Support
    • Healer

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    In my personal experience of previous MMO’s it's been that the 'Primary Class' or 'Main Archetype' establishes what will be its 'Core Role' referring to the 'Trinity System', then by giving players the choice of combining this with a 'Secondary Class' supposedly from what Steven has mentioned will provide additional utility or augments by enhancing and, specialising the kit of a primary class making it a ‘Hybrid or Pure Build’. If I was to put myself in the shoes of the company my main concern of demarcation for the overall player base in terms of the MMO's longevity would be ‘Content Accessibility’. This logically requires a more flexible approach by reviewing ‘Role & Class Usability’ assessing ‘Play-style and Class Mechanics’. There is a possibility by adding further limitations to classes through demarcation this will run the risk of limiting player choices and, secondly it could lead to groups requiring a specific and niche class composition that easily creates a stagnant ‘Meta’ for content whilst reducing the overall simplicity of forming parties quickly.

    Class Role and Usability This has already been established that each class will have its own unique role or passive abilities, e.g. the ranger possessing the ‘Track’ skill “Use this skill to show nearby tracks, leading to unknown adventures.” This is a very niche role so keep in mind this will have limitations as putting a strain on group content accessibility if said role is unavailable or not in reach due to content scaling i.e. level-gaps or the range of a player’s acquaintances.

    Hybrid and Pure Class Balancing An example for this could be that a Paladin - Tank/Cleric would be able to tank as well as heal but won't be as strong at healing as say a class with a Cleric as its ‘Primary Class or Archetype’. Though in comparison to this I would expect a Templar - Cleric/tank also capable of healing and tanking but wouldn’t be as strong as a class with a tank for its Primary Class or Archetype’ in groups. This is not to say that either one is necessarily better than the other, yet this could be determined by a players personal choice of play-style as well as class mechanics.

    E.g. take for instance a ‘Fighter’ VS ‘Ranger’ VS ‘Mage’ all of which are DPS classes in nature but should have very different elements or feeling in their unique play-styles. A fighter is typically a close-range Melee DPS, Ranger long-range Ranged DPS and Mage medium-range Magic DPS.

    Fighters could make it potentially difficult once they've closed the gap between their enemy with swift close-range melee skills for say a ranger class to be able of fully executing their long-range skills accurately, this is generally because a ranged class relies on their ‘Play-style or Class Kit/Mechanics’ which in order for them to do damage from a distance requires positioning as well as kiting the enemy or getting off early damage, but if needed can be capable of switching to said melee-range weapons to finish off nearing opponents. Though what if you then take a player who then decides to use a Hybrid Class Build aka Spellsword – Fighter/Mage this allows them to acquire a mages teleport or blink ability from their secondary archetype and augment it to a fighters short dash or roll skill, which enables that mechanism of closing the gap in a blink, which then would effectively reduce the rangers class mechanics giving the ability to counter providing an advantage. Mages generally in games have higher-cast time or higher-mana dependencies but if able to position themselves or pull off a skill that could present more personal risk would then reap more reward doing large amounts of AOE damage if they’re successful.

    Pure Class Build High Priest – Cleric/Cleric It would also logically be expected that pure builds would be exceptionally strong in terms of their defined role, but would lack a wider utility in terms of class mechanics while mastering or gaining some special skill related to having two of the same combined Archetypes. Then even so it should be that a player is capable in completing the same content with a High Priest + Templar = High Priest + Guardian sacrificing the extra tank qualities of a pure build but gaining increased healing capabilities from both classes to fill that gap.

    Content Accessibility for all Classes and Flexibility in filling Roles Personally, aside from the before mentioned I think having added flexibility as well as simplicity is the best way to go about it, but propose what if the secondary class or Archetype was able to be changed thus allowing the player to reshape their play-style to fit different scenarios, this could come at a price or cost of sacrificing what you’ve already put into the previous class, such as levels as well as skill points maybe even in-game funds or re-specialising builds. In the end there needs to be a balance between the choice of picking a primary class or primary role if they’re locked, whilst also giving players a sense of choice to combine the secondary class allowing additional augments without too narrowly limiting freedom or usability of player roles. Overall it all comes down to how you ‘Lock Primary Archetypes’ while making sure that choice is not overbearing and allows players to experience all the different types of content you’ll be making available. Consider the consequences of people being forced to pick classes that are too niche and overtime become unusable for a variety of content due to people wanting Meta or particular compositions, this would mean someone who wants to experience say how it feels to be competitive in DPS roles using for example a Cleric as a primary class would be required multiple characters and investing 2-3 times the amount of time, which is kind of tedious for people playing on a time schedule to level or gain progression on a character if the hybrid classes aren't balanced to allow multiple roles.

    The worst things in my own opinion that make an MMO game bad are dead player bases due to lack of immersive content, lack of social interactions or accessibility of massive multiplayer content, stagnant meta compositions and removing a player’s flexibility along with freedom. I’ll be honest I don’t want to have to pour hours of my time into a character to then have to re-roll it or make alts because of not being needed or useful in group or guild activity and, then it shouldn’t be limited to what I can do because of my ‘Primary Archetype’ not having a flexible ‘Secondary Archetype’ that doesn’t allow me to experience that content. Lastly there’s always the choice to allow classes to completely change or re-roll such as mentioned in earlier comments and in MMO’S like FFXIV. Observantly it seems from the comments this idea is very split, yet it also provides a more flexible approach, higher access to groups or for finding players to then be able to fill roles. If there was a way for instance to fix this such as balancing the hybrid classes to not limit players by forcing them to make multiple alts, but also still making their ‘Primary Archetype’ viable in all group role compositions such as flexible secondary archetypes and augments for hybrid trinity roles it might work.
  • jakutajakuta Member
    edited May 12
    Personally i guess it depends on the variations of skills that come in the game.

    For example. In another game my class was a Warrior, a Dps class by nature, my skills are considered to be doing damage and dodging attacks. However, through a Skill allocation/Glyph/Tome System, i'm able to learn the ability to Block and taunt. i'm now an off-tank. I've lost around 50% of my damage to gain the ability to now hold Monster Aggro/Block and be a filler role tank. Am i the ideal pick for the role? no, But the option was there.

    Now on Ashes, Do i think every Archetype should be able to be versatile and swap roles on the fly?
    (Absolutely not).
    Do i think that with players having the freedom to allocate points and gem/socket/imbue/enchant armor to be able to fill a role otherwise not filled would be okay?
    (Yes but do not consider them a main tank/dps/healer if their initial role was not that to begin with).

    As others have said above, Tanks should be Tanks and Vice versa.
    But how would that work when i would like to play something such as a Rogue/Cleric (Cultist)?
    Without knowing currently how exactly sub classes will effect main class abilities it is hard to determine the direct outcome of a Main and Sub class.

    (My hopes for the near future)
    I hope within the next few months with Alpha 1 opening up and new things being opened up to the backers, That within one of the livestreams they go over the Types of Augments we would see from sub classes and how they would effect your main role in alittle more detail. This would also help players determine how they would ultimately feel about the initial Question above and how to confidently speak knowing what to expect from each class and sub class with their respective augments.

    (Personal Thoughts and mindset)
    I'd like to say that i fit in the category of people who usually like to play the obscure picks and or try to build differently than others. There will always be some backlash and complaints in terms of optimal performance in PvP/PvE because i'm not a *Meta pick*, But i personally have more fun doing so. Being able to explore a game at my pace, my way, with a build that i put together and skills chosen that i would feel are the most fun to use. This (to me) is the most rewarding part about playing a MMO with so many options, Having more freedom and enjoying a class how i'd like to enjoy it.

    (Unpopular opinion and final note.)
    As an Example. If i play a Tank because i like the abilities, however i want to do everything possible Enchant/Imbue/Reforge wise to make me deal more damage at the cost of now being paper thin in terms of Tanking ability, Am i still a tank? Yes, however i've made a freedom of choice decision and feel more immersed playing the class as a scuffed higher dmg, paper thin noddle arm *Tank*. My main role isn't changing in the end, But the happiness i would have because i've been able to pick and chose how i wan't to play would be a great improvement over playing a *Meta Tank*.
  • JamationJamation Member
    More weird and vague questions as part of the dev discussion series....

    I'm honestly not sure what you are asking here Toast, sorry.

    EDIT: For anyone else who is also confused here is an example from Toast from the discord:
    the question is more about - say you're a cleric, and clerics can tank/heal. should you be expected to do both if you play that character, or do you want to specialize?

    Thank you @Wandering Mist because I was a little confused by what the question was asking as well.





    I prefer games that have a clear line between class "types". When any class can do "any job" it starts to feel a little muddled and like there's no real point to go with any one class over the other other than aesthetic.

    Using the example of Cleric if a cleric was expected to Tank and Heal, then what's the purpose of having a tank in a party? If a tanking cleric can not only heal, but also tank effectively then it would make more sense to bring 2 healing tanks rather than any fighting tanks.

    Now I also don't think a class should be "only" their type though. Sticking with the cleric example, I know many people (*cough* who don't play support *cough*) think that healers should only heal, but in order for a class to feel fun and useful in all situations they need a little bit of utility. In FFXIV for example there are 3 primary healing classes, while some classes give up DPS skills in exchange for more healing skills, others utilize less potent healing skills but more powerful shields etc etc. However, each healing class has the ability to not only perform their primary role as a healer, but when their party is in a "safe" spot, provide some DPS or buffs of some kind.

    This is all for the Primary Class.
    For the Secondary class this is where things become a little more complicated I think. For the sake of fluidity and cohesiveness lets just stick with the Cleric for this entire example.

    So we level up and do the work as a Cleric to achieve a Secondary class. At this point we should (in my opinion) be 80-85% Healing/Support abilities with 15-20% other utility skills as the primary class that heals.

    Let's say our cleric goes with the Tank role. Should the cleric have enough abilities that it could tank for a party? No. In a pinch if the primary tank falls or perhaps as a secondary tank for certain mechanics? Absolutely. So our Cleric/Tank should have the ability to tank -BUT- not for a long duration compared to their primary tank counterparts.
    Or if the person chooses, the Cleric/Tank should still primarily be a healer, but adding the "Tank" role on now gives them the ability to use "Tankish" buffs on their party like shields, damage mitigation, etc.

    But let's say our Cleric goes with a DPS role. Could you potentially swap out a dps for a Cleric/DPS? Probably, but you'd be in the dungeon for a much long duration that cost/benefit probably wouldn't be worth it. And if it's a boss type situation if they have anything like FFXIV's "enrage" then the party shouldn't be able to hit the DPS check (unless they just have some god like DPS in their party).




    -TLDR-

    The primary class should always be the main focus of the class, regardless of which secondary class the player picks. A Tank should be the tank, a support should be the healer, and DPS should be dead most of the time *cough* I mean provide damage.

    The secondary class should compliment the primary class in a unique way based on the second class chosen, but should never have the potential to overpower or replace the primary classes role in a party.

    When any class can do anything the classes lose their uniqueness and everything seems too similar and a touch boring.
  • wiccanwiccan Member, Pioneer
    No
    That will just make the feel of class identity like every mmo today.
    Stale and cookie cutter, most mmo now a days classes are the same thing with a different animation and core gimmick.
    Classed should have clear defined strengths and weaknesses where they can feel that in their moment of strength its their time to shine.
  • ZekethephoenixZekethephoenix Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited May 6
    One of my biggest turn offs of many MMOs is that they tend to let you do most things on a single character or class. Those types of games lose my interest quickly as when you let all classes or a single character do everything it becomes less social because now you'd only be looking out for yourself. When the game sterilizes the social aspect of an MMO down to just who's better at performing all the roles at once you no longer rely on each other to accomplish something. There's a reason the Holy Trinity exists!

    Just in case my commentary isn't clear: an example would be a Cleric/Tank being able to perform as a true tank, even with tank as its secondary class. Or a Rogue/cleric being able to fill a healer slot. I have made videos on how I'd prefer it and how Jeff explained it to me a few years ago at pax.

    Quoting Syndrome from The Incredibles: "When everyone's super... No one will be..."
  • zenniazennia Member, Braver of Worlds
    I can totally understand the convenience and flexibility of wanting to do this, but I really hope you don't.

    So much of Ashes of Creation is geared towards the game being a memorable experience, that the last thing you want is generic gameplay systems. Having multiple roles for your classes inarguably makes your game more adaptable, but it saps the individuality and character out of your classes.

    Especially if you want to encourage roleplay and a sense of "place" in the world, so much of that is tied into the connection you're able to forge with your character. That is, in turn, tied into how solidly you are able to define a real identity for them in the game world. Class is integral to the character's identity and needs to be as rich, nuanced, and distinctive as you can possibly make it. Multiple roles kill the ability to do that. World of Warcraft has its place and I enjoy it, to an extent, but I don't want Ashes of Creation to emulate it in this case.
  • botbot Member
    I think every class should be able to fulfill every aspect of their role, just not all at the same time. Some sort of respeccing should be required. For example, if I'm a mage and I'm doing a dungeon with a lot of mobs I might spec a pure damage, aoe mage build. If I decide to go do some 1v1 pvp I might respec into a single target damage, high mobility build. A class being able to do everything at once makes gameplay feel suffocating. It hurts the power in differing builds and makes the game stale rather than a game of options. However, being stuck to a single specific role is also suffocating and makes the game stale since you're always doing the same thing.
  • valkyrienvalkyrien Member
    I think that each class should have its own healing ability. This will make the gameplay in pvp more diverse. For example, we can play pvp solo or two. We will kill 1vX, 2vX. Otherwise, players will begin to take the second cleric archetype. This will destroy the whole variety of classes. Moreover, in PvE and PvP the cleric will not be useless. This class can heal stronger and give useful buffs. And I want to have some way to get out of control effects like in ESO (endurance).
  • SzoloSzolo Member, Founder
    "Pure" classes along the topleft-bottomright diagonal of the class combinations should be highly effective in their main role, while being really weak in other roles. Kind of like a "professor" of their field with many unique skills at their disposal.
    "Mixed" classes are a bit harder situation, because its not possible to make such a clear demarcation line between 56 different class, that can't be bypassed with certain gear/skill combo. Some of the skills will ultimately become a "mirror" of a skill from another class, just named differently. Mixed classes should be classified according to their main playstyle, and only the classes in the same subtype could be made different at their approach to execution. Its ok, if a melee Shadowblade and a ranged Scout also utilizes the same brewed poisons for damaging, but the difference between a Paladin and a Spellshield should be more, than just using Holy enhancement vs. Arcane enhancement.
    You ride that fine line of like everyone is about to die and you shall keep on casting, keep going, it awesome. Thats the best part of healing.
  • NeojahNeojah Member
    edited May 6
    A few things to consider for the different game modes.

    Multi-Role
    -There will be less specialization as most players will develop a single role fully and the others will be as needed.
    -There will be a need to create gear that is multifaceted instead of specialized.
    -The developer will have to be able to foresee the impact on the game world, of characters that can switch roles on the fly.
    -Systems have to be developed that will determine when it is possible to switch roles that will not allow exploitation.
    -Easier to fill and find groups based on needs rather than role.
    -Players will have far fewer characters overall reducing the load on the servers.
    -Overall reduced playtime from the player base due to having to develop less characters to play the different roles and classes.

    Single Role
    -Players tend to specialize more and can fine tune their gear, skill usage, talent points and game play.
    -The developer can implement "talent trees" with limited "skill points" that are specialization based, that cannot be as precise when you can switch roles.
    -You can create a more personalized character through a "talent tree" instead of picking jack of all trade generic perks.
    -The developer can create a more detailed "talent tree" providing unique perks per role that would not be balanced properly should it be applied to all roles.
    -Gear sets can be created that have specific benefits for one role or another.
    -When you specialize you tend to be better at that role, because it is what you focus on.
    -Obtaining better gear becomes a more pivotal aspect of the game, as you have to gear properly for endgame content based on your role.
  • valkyrienvalkyrien Member
    I do not agree with other players. If you reduce the effectiveness of mixed classes too much, then only pure roles will play in PVE raids because of their too strong effectiveness. Some class will surely become meta, and other players will no longer be taken into groups, and assemblies, new equipment will lose their relevance. Now this is the situation in ESO. Mixed classes should be just as effective or should have some unique differences that would make mixed classes useful and relevant in groups.
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