I think each class should be able to fulfill their expected roles with proper gearing meaning that gear should be important for their role that way you don't end up with an OP cleric that can tank and heal, rather you end up with one that can either tank or heal until they switch out some of their gear.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think each class should be able to fulfill their expected roles with proper gearing meaning that gear should be important for their role that way you don't end up with an OP cleric that can tank and heal, rather you end up with one that can either tank or heal until they switch out some of their gear.
Agree.
As long as the individual classes have an ability to self heal, and have a standard self defense buff and self damage increase, that the actual tank and healers clases could increase through unique increases to those via mitigation modifiers and mass healing specializations then the devs can do what they want tbh lol
I'll use tank as an example.
Argent: buff/debuff tank
Warden: tank who gains mobility buffs, bow passives, and some melee now work with bow
Knight: 2h wpn passives, control tank.
Nightshield: Gains DW perks, abilities grant stealth but rather than dropping threat, increased evasion. Evasion Tank.
Keeper: Tank with offtank pet. Augments cause interplay between tank and pet.
Spellshield: gains element damage, added effects like aoe to something like lacerate. Aoe spell dmg Tank.
Paladin: Self heal, gains holy/shadow dmg options. Self sustain tank.
Guardian: block tank.
Tank is in the name. That's the job.
Cleric will have damage builds, but people will always assume they are healing.
Role is your primary archetype. Output is your gear.
Summoner gets to be the exception as a jack of all trades. Summoner/tank should have one impressive tank pet, but the limit wouldn't be the pets stats or ability to hold aggro, but rather can the summoner manipulate his pet well enough to move the boss, get out if fire ect.
Ok so what about Fighter/tank= Dreadnought?
Easy, he can get a larger health pool, cc augments and spec into shield passives.
Suppose the Dreadnought puts on the best tank gear in the game?
Eh it generally not a good idea to go down this road. Not in pve anyway. Why not just play a tank in the first place?
Dreadnought: gains control tank perks
Knight: Gains 2h dps, becomes the control tank.
Choosing tank as a second class should give you extra cc and health/mitigation. Not the ability to main tank a raid boss, at least not full time.
Conversely a Dreadnought and a Knight in the same dps gear, the Knight would have more base health, but the Dreadnought would have a rotation better suited for burst/aoe damage.
Since any class can wear any gear, but only tanks cans put points into plate, why not include that passive skill tree as a benefit of tank secondary class?
This could be done with weapons as well.
Ranger: Bow
Rogue: dual wield/daggers
Fighter: 2hand
Tank: Shield combo
And so on.
Not all weapons will be considered as valuable if there isn't a method for min/max
Since there are 15 weapons a primary archetype should have the choice of putting passives into at least 4-5
Secondary should add 1-2 more from that base of 4-5
This way a battlemage can justify using a wand, since he got the passives from mage secondary, and role play their little heart out without punishing the rest of his raid. 😁
I think that using one name a character should be able to master every one of the 64 classes in the game given enough time without having to play alts to achieve this. This would allow classes to be different and balanced with diversity so that everything is fun and powerful but doesn't necessarily need to fill every role. This way when you inevitably find that the class you are is not what you want to be you can learn new classes and master different styles that give you the freedom to evolve into the class you truly love and eventually after years fill role depending on the needs of your community or your personal taste at the time
Personally I think that classes should come with certain clear style boundaries.
But that doesn't mean there can't also be a limited selection of roles available in each archetype depending on the secondary to allow for some flexibility. That could be fun to change things up.
I just think you shouldn't be able to change things *too much* on the fly (with an out of combat macro for example), it should be a somewhat conscious and careful decision.
A lot of players naturally want to do it all at once, like an anime superhero, but it doesn't make an interesting character or story arc if you can. Weaknesses are an important part of a personality.
But more on the gameplay side of things too much flexibility can actually hurt diversity rather than help it (in my own experience with high level gameplay). It gives a lot of accessibility to stuff like flavor of the month switching and puts pressure against players asking for changes in less viable classes ('why don't you just switch'), and also makes pvp less strategy based - the focus is on gaining the advantage before the fight by countering the class, rather than in the fight based on skill.
One thing to note though, even when two archetypes have the same role they can still approach that role differently and that's ok. Just because two classes have the same role doesn't mean they aren't each adding something new to the game.
A classic paladin-like class, for example, might use self heals and high armor to mitigate damage, while a hexblade/mage-tank might use things like high evasion or shield spells. Even in the same class a necromancer based dps might do it with several horde-like minion pets paired with dots/debuffs/diseases while the more classic summoner might do it with a single majestic avatar-like pet and direct dmg channeled through their pet rather than on their own. Regardless of roles, there should be some unique style differences between classes in how they accomplish them.
man i know I'm really late to the conversation here but i really do think its important you guys keep people committed to their original archetype. Giving people the flexibility to change their class by allowing them to change between different secondary archetypes seems more than fair to me. Your main archetype should be a part of your identity as a character and people should take pride in having that reputation, not be able to change it on a whim.
If you are one of the only master blacksmith on your server than people will know you for that
If you want to be a mage that specializes in fire magic and sorta suck at other elements than it should matter that you made those sacrifices to be good at one thing, and ultimately people will begin to recognize you as that master fire mage and you will be able to build a reputation for yourself
If all mages get to be great at all types of elemental magic than it undermines the sacrifices that fire mage was willing to make to be the best. Likewise that mage should feel invested in that identity and shouldn't be allowed to switch to being a tank simply because its convenient.
Many people have referenced FF14 in this discussion and in my opinion the biggest mistakes that game made revolved around choosing player convenience over immersion. I understand the convenience of being allowed to fulfill any role but this ultimately results in the community suffering because instead of relying on your relationships with other players you can simply choose to adopt that role for the moment you need it.
Personally I have always enjoyed playing support and to me this is a selfless role. You sacrifice your ability to be able to solo effectively and pvp for a greater value as a party member. Having a healer present is almost always essential in MMOs but if you can simply change your main archetype whenever its convenient it undermines all the hardship I may have had to endure trying to solo and avoid pvp at lower levels. These are challenging aspects of gameplay i am willing to accept as a healer because I can recognize they are unappealing to most players and will eventually put me in a position where I'm a valuable asset to dungeon raid parties and world bosses.
The current primary/secondary class system looks for me very boring. Switching from a Beastmaster to a Necromancer just because both are Summoner doesn't make any sense. So, before I can be a Rexxar style Beastmaster, I have to play the typical Summoner with Fire/Water/Earth/Wind Elemental for a while till I can choose my secondary class? It doesn't sounds cool.
With reading the class names it also looks like the secondary class give us something it has nothing to do with this class.
If I play a mage who studied the complete life in a mage tower and now I would like to be a little bit more darker, why I should go to Rouge? What can he teach me?
I would prefer if I can choose a setting, maybe Nature. And one by one I get the options to became Melee or Range. Physical bow or spell damage. DPS or Healer. Alone or with pet. Or Shapeshifting - as tank or DPS. But all the time I'm a tree hugger.
With respec or not. Or just in safe zones. Or with a questline. It doesn't matter.
Not matter what you do the min/maxers will screw it up for everyone. There will be that one required class for tanking (or hybrid class) that one required class for heals (no holy priest only disp priest) et cetera. The more options there are the longer the spreadsheets will be but the result will be just the same.
I prefer to role a class to become the Master as a tank, healer or dps.
It's an MMO you should rely on other players to use there mastery so your team becomes as one.
Not a solo effort, so why should you be able to tank, heal, and dps using the same character.
Also i like the fact that players get mentioned " Oh is chopalot on today, should have seen him tank that boss lastnight, bloke's a legend" " yer but it was healalot who was the real star "
As in " good raid, we all did a good job at tanking and healing ourselves lastnight "
Comments
Agree.
As long as the individual classes have an ability to self heal, and have a standard self defense buff and self damage increase, that the actual tank and healers clases could increase through unique increases to those via mitigation modifiers and mass healing specializations then the devs can do what they want tbh lol
Argent: buff/debuff tank
Warden: tank who gains mobility buffs, bow passives, and some melee now work with bow
Knight: 2h wpn passives, control tank.
Nightshield: Gains DW perks, abilities grant stealth but rather than dropping threat, increased evasion. Evasion Tank.
Keeper: Tank with offtank pet. Augments cause interplay between tank and pet.
Spellshield: gains element damage, added effects like aoe to something like lacerate. Aoe spell dmg Tank.
Paladin: Self heal, gains holy/shadow dmg options. Self sustain tank.
Guardian: block tank.
Tank is in the name. That's the job.
Cleric will have damage builds, but people will always assume they are healing.
Role is your primary archetype. Output is your gear.
Summoner gets to be the exception as a jack of all trades. Summoner/tank should have one impressive tank pet, but the limit wouldn't be the pets stats or ability to hold aggro, but rather can the summoner manipulate his pet well enough to move the boss, get out if fire ect.
Ok so what about Fighter/tank= Dreadnought?
Easy, he can get a larger health pool, cc augments and spec into shield passives.
Suppose the Dreadnought puts on the best tank gear in the game?
Eh it generally not a good idea to go down this road. Not in pve anyway. Why not just play a tank in the first place?
Dreadnought: gains control tank perks
Knight: Gains 2h dps, becomes the control tank.
Choosing tank as a second class should give you extra cc and health/mitigation. Not the ability to main tank a raid boss, at least not full time.
Conversely a Dreadnought and a Knight in the same dps gear, the Knight would have more base health, but the Dreadnought would have a rotation better suited for burst/aoe damage.
Since any class can wear any gear, but only tanks cans put points into plate, why not include that passive skill tree as a benefit of tank secondary class?
This could be done with weapons as well.
Ranger: Bow
Rogue: dual wield/daggers
Fighter: 2hand
Tank: Shield combo
And so on.
Not all weapons will be considered as valuable if there isn't a method for min/max
Since there are 15 weapons a primary archetype should have the choice of putting passives into at least 4-5
Secondary should add 1-2 more from that base of 4-5
This way a battlemage can justify using a wand, since he got the passives from mage secondary, and role play their little heart out without punishing the rest of his raid. 😁
But that doesn't mean there can't also be a limited selection of roles available in each archetype depending on the secondary to allow for some flexibility. That could be fun to change things up.
I just think you shouldn't be able to change things *too much* on the fly (with an out of combat macro for example), it should be a somewhat conscious and careful decision.
A lot of players naturally want to do it all at once, like an anime superhero, but it doesn't make an interesting character or story arc if you can. Weaknesses are an important part of a personality.
But more on the gameplay side of things too much flexibility can actually hurt diversity rather than help it (in my own experience with high level gameplay). It gives a lot of accessibility to stuff like flavor of the month switching and puts pressure against players asking for changes in less viable classes ('why don't you just switch'), and also makes pvp less strategy based - the focus is on gaining the advantage before the fight by countering the class, rather than in the fight based on skill.
One thing to note though, even when two archetypes have the same role they can still approach that role differently and that's ok. Just because two classes have the same role doesn't mean they aren't each adding something new to the game.
A classic paladin-like class, for example, might use self heals and high armor to mitigate damage, while a hexblade/mage-tank might use things like high evasion or shield spells. Even in the same class a necromancer based dps might do it with several horde-like minion pets paired with dots/debuffs/diseases while the more classic summoner might do it with a single majestic avatar-like pet and direct dmg channeled through their pet rather than on their own. Regardless of roles, there should be some unique style differences between classes in how they accomplish them.
If you are one of the only master blacksmith on your server than people will know you for that
If you want to be a mage that specializes in fire magic and sorta suck at other elements than it should matter that you made those sacrifices to be good at one thing, and ultimately people will begin to recognize you as that master fire mage and you will be able to build a reputation for yourself
If all mages get to be great at all types of elemental magic than it undermines the sacrifices that fire mage was willing to make to be the best. Likewise that mage should feel invested in that identity and shouldn't be allowed to switch to being a tank simply because its convenient.
Many people have referenced FF14 in this discussion and in my opinion the biggest mistakes that game made revolved around choosing player convenience over immersion. I understand the convenience of being allowed to fulfill any role but this ultimately results in the community suffering because instead of relying on your relationships with other players you can simply choose to adopt that role for the moment you need it.
Personally I have always enjoyed playing support and to me this is a selfless role. You sacrifice your ability to be able to solo effectively and pvp for a greater value as a party member. Having a healer present is almost always essential in MMOs but if you can simply change your main archetype whenever its convenient it undermines all the hardship I may have had to endure trying to solo and avoid pvp at lower levels. These are challenging aspects of gameplay i am willing to accept as a healer because I can recognize they are unappealing to most players and will eventually put me in a position where I'm a valuable asset to dungeon raid parties and world bosses.
With reading the class names it also looks like the secondary class give us something it has nothing to do with this class.
If I play a mage who studied the complete life in a mage tower and now I would like to be a little bit more darker, why I should go to Rouge? What can he teach me?
I would prefer if I can choose a setting, maybe Nature. And one by one I get the options to became Melee or Range. Physical bow or spell damage. DPS or Healer. Alone or with pet. Or Shapeshifting - as tank or DPS. But all the time I'm a tree hugger.
With respec or not. Or just in safe zones. Or with a questline. It doesn't matter.
I prefer to role a class to become the Master as a tank, healer or dps.
It's an MMO you should rely on other players to use there mastery so your team becomes as one.
Not a solo effort, so why should you be able to tank, heal, and dps using the same character.
Also i like the fact that players get mentioned " Oh is chopalot on today, should have seen him tank that boss lastnight, bloke's a legend" " yer but it was healalot who was the real star "
As in " good raid, we all did a good job at tanking and healing ourselves lastnight "
Very little