And what's the point? One guaranteed CC tab target skill, makes action focused builds for DDs completely useless. Action is all about "Don't get CC'd, or you die. Never stop moving, time your iframes and super armor with the right counter-skills to stay standing" "Hit without getting hit".
Sounds like Street Fighter to me.
And it kind of feel like it too! A brawler within an MMO - not everyones cup of tea, but for me BDO is without a doubt the best combat in any MMO to this date.
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MeowsedMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You'll notice that most good action-combat games tend be lacking in other areas, and for good reason.
This is a point I have been making here for years.
BDO has an ok combat system (it's not great, honestly). Thing is, that combat system simply wouldn't work on a real end game PvE encounter - and BDO has no such content. A pure action combat system is great in a PvP setting though.
On the other hand, you have a game like WoW. The combat system is as bland and boring as it is possible to make, yet some of the content makes the game at least interesting, even if not challenging. PvP in a game like this is literally pitting a bland combat system up against a bland opponent. The results are, unsurprisingly, bland.
There is a point in between where the combat system itself is interesting and enjoyable, yet still allows for the content to add even more to that. This is what I am hoping Ashes strives for.
I think we will find that when the game has matured 9 - 12 months post launch, almost all PvP players will be running an action combat build, and almost all PvE players will be running a tab target build - as these are the combat systems that are better suited to each content type - both in terms of effectiveness and enjoyment.
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MeowsedMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Tera had the best combat in any mmorpg I have played. I dont think there will be a better combat than that again. Both PvE and PvP.
Not over the top visual effects like bdo or ffxiv.
No boring rotations like eso, but rather a true action/reaction combat, with a good number of great abilities to be used against appropriate enemies.
However the game soon became an eyesore and I am glad I quit due to time issues before I saw any of the new crap.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The only class in BDO that I actually liked was the Brawler tbh. The class had a near flawless combo system, that i truly enjoyed.
The problem is, that all classes are designed for mobbing in some extend, which does not correlate with most PvE combat.
I agree that the combat system is more important when it comes to determining how good PvP is, because like you said, PvP just pits two versions of the general combat system against each other, with minimal extra mechanics.
Agreed.
To me, this is why PvE is more interesting.
In PvP, players are generally only going to do what is logical with their classes tool set. With PvE though, content designers can decide what they want the encounter to do, and then give them a toolset to achieve that.
While each encounter may be the same (or generally the same) every time you take it on, there are far more logical possibilities of PvE encounters in general than there are logical possibilities for PvP encounters. But that is a whole different discussion.
Following that, I agree that a combat system is only half of what makes for good PvE - you need to also have good content and that is an ongoing, perpetual thing for developers to maintain (players need an average of one encounter every 2 weeks to maintain interest, from what I have seen).
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
BDO has an ok combat system (it's not great, honestly). Thing is, that combat system simply wouldn't work on a real end game PvE encounter - and BDO has no such content. A pure action combat system is great in a PvP setting though.
I believe a pure action system could work in high end game PvE content, but it would require genuine innovation instead of just blindly copying games like WoW and FFXIV that are designed around tab target combat. This was the mistake GW2 made with its raids. The core gameplay and combat was never designed for WoW-style raids, but they ham-fisted them in anyway and it turned into a complete mess.
For me, the biggest problem I have with games like BDO and TERA isn't the combat itself, but the enemies we face. The mobs you fight are so bland and boring and die in 2 hits that it isn't worth using any of the combos on.
One of the reasons why Dark Souls games are remembered so fondly is because the enemies are so interesting to fight. Each type of mob acts and fights differently, which keeps the gameplay engaging for the player. In most mmorpgs you have 2 types of mobs - melee and ranged. Nothing more.
I believe a pure action system could work in high end game PvE content, but it would require genuine innovation instead of just blindly copying games like WoW and FFXIV that are designed around tab target combat. This was the mistake GW2 made with its raids. The core gameplay and combat was never designed for WoW-style raids, but they ham-fisted them in anyway and it turned into a complete mess.
[/quote]I agree in principle, but I also believe the amount of work it would take would need to be done via iteration over many games, rather than a single massive shift in a single MMO. based on that, I don't expect to ever see it.
There are many aspects of action combat that simply don't gel well with large numbers of players all attacking a single target.
It is perfectly possible to make an action game with enjoyable single target or small group content - but I can't even picture 15 melee classes all standing around a single target trying to make use of an action combat game system on it all at the same time.
To me, one of the key things a game would need to do if it wants to combine action combat with large scale PvE fights is ensure that very few players need to be in melee range of the target. It isn't the only thing, but to me it is the most obvious and potentially hardest for players to accept.
A game like Dark Souls is good at pitting a somewhat average combat system against interesting targets. This makes for as good a game as one with an interesting combat system against somewhat average targets.
For me though, I tend to only really focus on the top end content in terms of encounters. A game like EQ2 does pit a good combat system against interesting enemies, but only at that top end. The encounters at the bottom end (basically all solo content, group content other than bosses, and most raid trash population) are all somewhat boring in terms of content - which would be one of that games biggest faults.
A game with an interesting combat system and interesting content at every level of the game has yet to be made, in my opinion.
Sadly, with the current seeming limit of 12 abilities at a time, I don't think Ashes will break that - but that is just more of my opinion.
Combat is very smooth and quick, are the algorithms working behind the scenes? Which system(s) are being used to calculate hitpoints/attack/damage? Dungeons and Dragons uses the 3.0/5.0 system by Gygax (the creator), is Intrepid using their own system? Or is it just some basic mold dependent on level and/or weapon +armor? Just a quick run-down would be nice, I don't expect anyone to post the entire rules set they are using. Just a number everytime it hits (15, 75, 2,000) is really vague, imho.
Edit: Forgot to add graphics, environmental details + lighting, and mayor system as well as township options all look great. Especially the ambience of the Underrealm particle effects surrounding the fauna.
I think pure Action Combat MMO and pure tab-target MMO are two different genres. It does not make sense to compare them. They appeal to different people and it is basically like comparing a pure Third Person Shooter with a pure First Person shooter.
These small things makes a huge difference.
I think pure Action Combat MMO and pure tab-target MMO are two different genres. It does not make sense to compare them. They appeal to different people and it is basically like comparing a pure Third Person Shooter with a pure First Person shooter.
These small things makes a huge difference.
One is not necessarily better, just different.
Ah, interesting. Hmmm might have to get used to this. Maybe t'will unearth in time.
I think pure Action Combat MMO and pure tab-target MMO are two different genres. It does not make sense to compare them. They appeal to different people and it is basically like comparing a pure Third Person Shooter with a pure First Person shooter.
These small things makes a huge difference.
One is not necessarily better, just different.
Oh, it is absolutely true that they are different and are for different people - but imo it's fine to compare them when you are talking about their differences.
@noaani Sure thing - I just don't know how much value it actually brings.
I can compare first person shooter with third person shooter. I am not sure why I would do that. If I wanted to change a first person shooter to be more like a third person, then it would just cease to be a first person shooter.
People that prefer tab-targetting are not gonna get convinced to like action-combat more if I compare the two.
It is like trying to convince someone to like banana more than apple.
I can compare first person shooter with third person shooter. I am not sure why I would do that.
Only real reason I can think of for doing this is if a game developer was developing a game where players could chose to be either first or third person.
I'm not really trying to convince people to like one over another - though I am always happy to point out when people have misgivings about tab target, since it is the system of these two that I know more about.
I also get somewhat annoyed when people pit the best example of one combat system up against the worst of another to point out why they like one over the other - I am not necessarily trying to change their mind, just trying to point out that they may not be aware that their tab target experiences in games are below par for tab target experiences (not that this has happened in this particular thread).
The other thing that I do often - and have done in this thread - is point out that while people may have their own preferences, there absolutely are situations or game types where one is generally better than the other. A lot of players that enjoy action combat have absolutely no idea what action combat against a difficult raid encounter would be like in comparison to tab target (understandable, as there are no games with action combat and difficult raid encounters), just as players that like tab targeting have no idea how that kind of PvP compares to action combat PvP (understandable, as these players seem to be the type to generally avoid PvP).
This isn't a hard and fast kind of rule - but it absolutely is the case if we are speaking in general terms.
I can compare first person shooter with third person shooter. I am not sure why I would do that.
The other thing that I do often - and have done in this thread - is point out that while people may have their own preferences, there absolutely are situations or game types where one is generally better than the other. A lot of players that enjoy action combat have absolutely no idea what action combat against a difficult raid encounter would be like in comparison to tab target (understandable, as there are no games with action combat and difficult raid encounters), just as players that like tab targeting have no idea how that kind of PvP compares to action combat PvP (understandable, as these players seem to be the type to generally avoid PvP).
This isn't a hard and fast kind of rule - but it absolutely is the case if we are speaking in general terms.
I disagree, I like both PvE and PvP and I prefer Action Combat - for both of those aspects.
But hey we are all different.
Anyway my initial comment about pitting Action and Tab-target combat up against each other was not aimed to anyone in particular - just my own personal opinion on the subject.
I disagree, I like both PvE and PvP and I prefer Action Combat - for both of those aspects.
Can you point me to a game that has action combat as well as top end PvP raids?
Not raids like BDO, where they are very basic encounters designed to encourage PvP, or TERA, where the end game PvP is limited to 5 people (considered a small group in Ashes).
I'm talking about 20 - 40 people at a time, on an encounter that has an actual script with at least a dozen components to it.
I mean, if you enjoy PvE with action combat, that's fine. We're obviously talking about top end 20 - 40 man MMO raid content here, and you seem to have experience with these encounters and action content that I can't seem to find - so just point me to the game that combines top end 20 - 40 man MMO raid content with action combat and maybe I will share your view on it.
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MeowsedMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
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I think action-combat should work just fine with large battles, as long as there is space for all the melee characters. You just need a big enough boss/hitbox or a lot of adds. I don't see how large-raid problems (mostly surrounding communication and co-ordination, right?) would be any different with action-combat. I suppose players might be more focused on the action, and less able to look around and coordinate, but that can be addressed by tuning the fight differently.
The draw of action combat is the "skill" needed.
If you want to hit your target, you have to actually *hit* your target.
That isn't exactly hard to do when your target is towering over everyone.
Take action combat, but then remove the need to aim. What do you have left other than an uninteresting version of a tab target combat system?
You either have a massive target so that everyone can get around but that leaves no need to aim, or a small target that require people to aim, but means melee classes are essentially useless.
There are a few gimmicks that could be employed on occasion to attempt to bridge that, but these would need to be used infrequently enough to be considered the exception rather than the rule.
If you want to hit your target, you have to actually *hit* your target.
That isn't exactly hard to do when your target is towering over everyone.
Action combat is for me a lot more than just hitting the target. I don't care if it is Easy or not, I just want to physically hit in order for my swings and spells to actually matter. It adds to the suspension of disbelief.
Take action combat, but then remove the need to aim. What do you have left other than an uninteresting version of a tab target combat system?
I am sorry mate, but it feels like you are trying to do exactly what you said you didn't like people doing. You are trying to pit up the "worst" case of action combat with tab targetting.
Can you point me to a game that has action combat as well as top end PvP raids?
Not raids like BDO, where they are very basic encounters designed to encourage PvP, or TERA, where the end game PvP is limited to 5 people (considered a small group in Ashes).
I'm talking about 20 - 40 people at a time, on an encounter that has an actual script with at least a dozen components to it.
I mean, if you enjoy PvE with action combat, that's fine. We're obviously talking about top end 20 - 40 man MMO raid content here, and you seem to have experience with these encounters and action content that I can't seem to find - so just point me to the game that combines top end 20 - 40 man MMO raid content with action combat and maybe I will share your view on it.
In case you meant Top end PvP - it would probably be BDO sieges.
In case you meant PvE 40 man raids - not sure I have experienced that, but I don't see why I would prefer such a raid being tab-target when I like another type/genre of combat in the MMO's i play.
Not trying to convince you to share my point of view, we like two different "genres" of MMO, I like mine with Action Combat and you prefer yours with tab-target from what I understand. Both preferences are absolutely fine.
I am sorry mate, but it feels like you are trying to do exactly what you said you didn't like people doing. You are trying to pit up the "worst" case of action combat with tab targetting.
Sort of, but remember I am also saying that tab target is worse in PvP than action combat. So rather than pitting the best of one vs the worst of the other, I am (at least attempting to) point out the strengths and weaknesses of each.
The whole point of what I am saying in regards to a large target being easy is essentially the reverse of the comments made a while ago in regards to dwarves - if they are significantly smaller than other player races, they will be harder to hit with action combat abilities, and thus harder to kill purely by virtue of the race the player selects.
The reverse of that is that if something is significantly larger, it is easier to hit in action combat, and thus is easier to kill in action combat.
In case you meant Top end PvP - it would probably be BDO sieges.
In case you meant PvE 40 man raids - not sure I have experienced that, but I don't see why I would prefer such a raid being tab-target when I like another type/genre of combat in the MMO's i play.
Not trying to convince you to share my point of view, we like two different "genres" of MMO, I like mine with Action Combat and you prefer yours with tab-target from what I understand. Both preferences are absolutely fine.
I absolutely meant top end PvE - good examples of action combat in PvP are easy to find, good examples of action combat in top end PvP don't currently exist.
There are no really good PvP MMO's with pure tab target combat. There are no really good PvE MMO's with pure action combat.
This is not a coincidence.
Look at all of the abilities that action combat from your favorite game has in relation to movement - either jumping the player character to the mob, or pulling the mob to the player character. Along with aiming, abilities like this are kind of a hallmark of action combat.
Many of them won't work in a raid setting with player collision.
You can't have a raid mob attempt to dodge a projectile either, unless that mob has a dodge that pushes players out of the way (an ok gimmick for the occasional encounter, but any more than 1 in 10 encounters having it will be tacky).
Again, this isn't about preference, this is about what each system can do. Arguably, it could be about preference with each system in regards to different content types if you prefer. You say yourself that you understand I prefer tab target combat - and you're right. Chances are though, if I am going out with the intention of PvP'ing, I'll have an action combat heavy build running, because as I see things right now, that will be more suited to PvP, even if it is not my preference.
I can see the same happening with large scale PvE and tab target.
Edit to add; I'm not specifically saying this is how things absolutely will be in Ashes. Intrepid may well come up with an action combat system where movement and aiming are significantly less important (I won't even pretend to have an idea what that could look like). Or they may come up with something totally different on the content side of things (again, no idea at all what that could look like).
All I'm saying is that all of the action combat systems we have in games to date are not very good at handling a large scale PvE raid encounter - which logically is probably why there are no games currently mixing these two things.
Wanting action combat on raids is fine, people can want it as much as they, well, want. What wanting doesn't do though, is make it fit. Just as me wanting really good PvP with tab targeting is a fine thing to want - but that doesn't mean it will happen.
It's a case of round peg is a square hole - there has to be compromises to either the peg or the hole to make it fit.
I like the progress a lot. The graphics look really nice, but the animations need a lot of work. Again, I like the progress, but they need to be significantly cleaner. Animations should be quick, but impactful.
The whole point of what I am saying in regards to a large target being easy is essentially the reverse of the comments made a while ago in regards to dwarves - if they are significantly smaller than other player races, they will be harder to hit with action combat abilities, and thus harder to kill purely by virtue of the race the player selects.
The reverse of that is that if something is significantly larger, it is easier to hit in action combat, and thus is easier to kill in action combat.
I believe your two points were:
1. Hitting large objects in action combat is boring.
2. Being small gives an "advantage" in action combat (Solution to this: see games like Apex Legends - smaller frame lower healthpool etc. etc.)
Those two statements are not antithetical to one another.
There are no really good PvP MMO's with pure tab target combat. There are no really good PvE MMO's with pure action combat.
This is not a coincidence.
I really do believe this is entirely a coincidence if it is the case.
If you compare the amount of Action Combat MMO's with tab target, my guess is that tab-target outweighs action combat with about double the amount if not more.
Out of all those tab-target MMO's, how many have 40 man raid that use the WoW formula? a handful or less?
If my presumption is anywhere near correct and if the amount of MMO's exceed a couple of hundreds, I would say that the chance of it being a coincidence, is pretty darn high.
The whole point of what I am saying in regards to a large target being easy is essentially the reverse of the comments made a while ago in regards to dwarves - if they are significantly smaller than other player races, they will be harder to hit with action combat abilities, and thus harder to kill purely by virtue of the race the player selects.
The reverse of that is that if something is significantly larger, it is easier to hit in action combat, and thus is easier to kill in action combat.
I believe your two points were:
1. Hitting large objects in action combat is boring.
2. Being small gives an "advantage" in action combat (Solution to this: see games like Apex Legends - smaller frame lower healthpool etc. etc.)
Those two statements are not antithetical to one another.
You got the first statement right, but not the second.
In this discussion, we are not overly concerned with the smaller target - it was mentioned simply to point out that it is not me that is claiming the larger a target, the easier it is to hit in action combat.
In this discussion, we are only concerned with the large target, and the implications that has with action combat.
There are no really good PvP MMO's with pure tab target combat. There are no really good PvE MMO's with pure action combat.
This is not a coincidence.
I really do believe this is entirely a coincidence if it is the case.
If you compare the amount of Action Combat MMO's with tab target, my guess is that tab-target outweighs action combat with about double the amount if not more.
Out of all those tab-target MMO's, how many have 40 man raid that use the WoW formula? a handful or less?
If my presumption is anywhere near correct and if the amount of MMO's exceed a couple of hundreds, I would say that the chance of it being a coincidence, is pretty darn high.
You are free to believe that, if you wish.
However, I will go over what we have.
First of all, we have a theory that action combat is a challenge to implement in regards to large scale, high end PvP encounters. This is just a theory.
Then we have a complete lack of current action combat games that have any such content in them, despite such content still being extremely popular in MMO's - both by people participating in that content, and in such content keeping people in a given game to attempt to participate in.
Lastly, we have the singular example of an attempt in an action combat based game. It was introduced to the game as a 30 person encounter, then removed from the game soon after. Then it was re-released as a 20 man encounter, and again removed from the game soon after.
So, we absolutely have circumstantial evidence to back up the theory that we have, but literally nothing at all to refute it.
That means that right now, on the preponderance of evidence, the best theory that we have is that action combat and large scale, high end PvP encounters don't mix well. Ashes may well provide evidence in the opposite direction, but as of right now, that is what the evidence that we have says.
Again, you can believe what you want, but just be aware of what it is you are denying.
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MeowsedMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
First of all, we have a theory that action combat is a challenge to implement in regards to large scale, high end PvP encounters. This is just a theory.
I love when I get to post this video! Despite the "controversial" title, I recommend watching it despite it being older - it still is relevant today Why MMO Combat Sucks!
Again, you can believe what you want, but just be aware of what it is you are denying.
I don't deny anything - other than trying to change the view of someone prefering action combat or tab target is not gonna have an effect. I were specific and careful in the way I worded my sentences.
Lastly, we have the singular example of an attempt in an action combat based game. It was introduced to the game as a 30 person encounter, then removed from the game soon after. Then it was re-released as a 20 man encounter, and again removed from the game soon after.
To be fair, I can explain why Harrowhold was removed without citing action-combat at all. TERA has, for a while now, operated with a revolving content schedule. Every so often they throw out old dungeons, introduce a new one (and sometimes re-introduce an old one), and do a bunch of re-tuning for the existing dungeons. At the same time they release a new tier for gear treadmill, of course.
Harrowhold, like many dungeons before it, simply played out it's usefulness and was eventually discarded because it was old. (Very slash-and-burn design. Not ideal, but it keeps things fresh and minimizes maintenance costs.)
Also, it's a dying game, with a dwindling population. It makes no sense for them to support really high-end/niche content, just for the sake of a dozen guilds.
Yeah, Tera does it's content a bit weird - but all that specific fact does is open us up to look at a few other things.
The first of these things is the timeline.
The 30 man raid was live for around 6 months, and then switches immediately to it's 20 man version which was open for 18 months before beings closed.
To me, this says the 30 man version caused issues. Issues big enough to warrant redoing the zone. It also says that the key thing that solved those issues was dropping the 30 players down to 20.
The fact that the zone was open for a year and a half as a 20 man zone says a lot to me.
Then we can look at the videos of it that are available. Player videos of the 30 man version are rare (I didn't have an exhaustive look, but the only video I saw of the 30 man version was the developers showing the zone off).
There are, however, a number of videos of the 20 man version.
Again, this suggests to me that the 30 man version caused issues, but the 20 man version didn't.
I'd be more than happy to use this to suggest that somewhere between 20 and 30 players is about the most an action combat raid encounter can really support - though I would suggest it is closer to the low end.
While this is anecdotal at this point, I also want to point out that of the few videos I did see of players killing the encounter, melee classes seemed to be under-represented from what I would expect to see in a 20 man raid - which also happens to be a thing I said would happen in a PvE raid with an action combat system.
I'm still saying this is just a theory, but all the evidence so far is pointing towards it being correct.
First of all, we have a theory that action combat is a challenge to implement in regards to large scale, high end PvP encounters. This is just a theory.
I love when I get to post this video! Despite the "controversial" title, I recommend watching it despite it being older - it still is relevant today Why MMO Combat Sucks!
Again, you can believe what you want, but just be aware of what it is you are denying.
I don't deny anything - other than trying to change the view of someone prefering action combat or tab target is not gonna have an effect. I were specific and careful in the way I worded my sentences.
I'm not sure what that video was for - a lot of what he talked about is outdated now. Most of the MMO's released since that video were action combat. I actually agree with most of what he says in regards to how things were in 2013 when he made the video (this is rare for me - I tend to disagree with almost all MMO YouTubers, as most of them try to pass off their opinion as fact). I will say that he didn't mention skill queues at all, which go a long way to dealing with latency issues due to geographical distance in conjunction with a GCD - I was disappointed with this omission since everything else was fairly complete.
However, nothing in that video has any real relation to action combat against large scale PvE encounters.
It does bring up the question as to what Intrepids plans are for latency mitigation - it's totally off topic, but is not something I've seen anyone ask before.
Comments
And it kind of feel like it too! A brawler within an MMO - not everyones cup of tea, but for me BDO is without a doubt the best combat in any MMO to this date.
BDO has an ok combat system (it's not great, honestly). Thing is, that combat system simply wouldn't work on a real end game PvE encounter - and BDO has no such content. A pure action combat system is great in a PvP setting though.
On the other hand, you have a game like WoW. The combat system is as bland and boring as it is possible to make, yet some of the content makes the game at least interesting, even if not challenging. PvP in a game like this is literally pitting a bland combat system up against a bland opponent. The results are, unsurprisingly, bland.
There is a point in between where the combat system itself is interesting and enjoyable, yet still allows for the content to add even more to that. This is what I am hoping Ashes strives for.
I think we will find that when the game has matured 9 - 12 months post launch, almost all PvP players will be running an action combat build, and almost all PvE players will be running a tab target build - as these are the combat systems that are better suited to each content type - both in terms of effectiveness and enjoyment.
Not over the top visual effects like bdo or ffxiv.
No boring rotations like eso, but rather a true action/reaction combat, with a good number of great abilities to be used against appropriate enemies.
However the game soon became an eyesore and I am glad I quit due to time issues before I saw any of the new crap.
BDO combat sucks. AoC will not have it, thank all that is holy.
The problem is, that all classes are designed for mobbing in some extend, which does not correlate with most PvE combat.
To me, this is why PvE is more interesting.
In PvP, players are generally only going to do what is logical with their classes tool set. With PvE though, content designers can decide what they want the encounter to do, and then give them a toolset to achieve that.
While each encounter may be the same (or generally the same) every time you take it on, there are far more logical possibilities of PvE encounters in general than there are logical possibilities for PvP encounters. But that is a whole different discussion.
Following that, I agree that a combat system is only half of what makes for good PvE - you need to also have good content and that is an ongoing, perpetual thing for developers to maintain (players need an average of one encounter every 2 weeks to maintain interest, from what I have seen).
I believe a pure action system could work in high end game PvE content, but it would require genuine innovation instead of just blindly copying games like WoW and FFXIV that are designed around tab target combat. This was the mistake GW2 made with its raids. The core gameplay and combat was never designed for WoW-style raids, but they ham-fisted them in anyway and it turned into a complete mess.
For me, the biggest problem I have with games like BDO and TERA isn't the combat itself, but the enemies we face. The mobs you fight are so bland and boring and die in 2 hits that it isn't worth using any of the combos on.
One of the reasons why Dark Souls games are remembered so fondly is because the enemies are so interesting to fight. Each type of mob acts and fights differently, which keeps the gameplay engaging for the player. In most mmorpgs you have 2 types of mobs - melee and ranged. Nothing more.
There are many aspects of action combat that simply don't gel well with large numbers of players all attacking a single target.
It is perfectly possible to make an action game with enjoyable single target or small group content - but I can't even picture 15 melee classes all standing around a single target trying to make use of an action combat game system on it all at the same time.
To me, one of the key things a game would need to do if it wants to combine action combat with large scale PvE fights is ensure that very few players need to be in melee range of the target. It isn't the only thing, but to me it is the most obvious and potentially hardest for players to accept.
A game like Dark Souls is good at pitting a somewhat average combat system against interesting targets. This makes for as good a game as one with an interesting combat system against somewhat average targets.
For me though, I tend to only really focus on the top end content in terms of encounters. A game like EQ2 does pit a good combat system against interesting enemies, but only at that top end. The encounters at the bottom end (basically all solo content, group content other than bosses, and most raid trash population) are all somewhat boring in terms of content - which would be one of that games biggest faults.
A game with an interesting combat system and interesting content at every level of the game has yet to be made, in my opinion.
Sadly, with the current seeming limit of 12 abilities at a time, I don't think Ashes will break that - but that is just more of my opinion.
Edit: Forgot to add graphics, environmental details + lighting, and mayor system as well as township options all look great. Especially the ambience of the Underrealm particle effects surrounding the fauna.
These small things makes a huge difference.
One is not necessarily better, just different.
Ah, interesting. Hmmm might have to get used to this. Maybe t'will unearth in time.
Oh, it is absolutely true that they are different and are for different people - but imo it's fine to compare them when you are talking about their differences.
I can compare first person shooter with third person shooter. I am not sure why I would do that. If I wanted to change a first person shooter to be more like a third person, then it would just cease to be a first person shooter.
People that prefer tab-targetting are not gonna get convinced to like action-combat more if I compare the two.
It is like trying to convince someone to like banana more than apple.
I'm not really trying to convince people to like one over another - though I am always happy to point out when people have misgivings about tab target, since it is the system of these two that I know more about.
I also get somewhat annoyed when people pit the best example of one combat system up against the worst of another to point out why they like one over the other - I am not necessarily trying to change their mind, just trying to point out that they may not be aware that their tab target experiences in games are below par for tab target experiences (not that this has happened in this particular thread).
The other thing that I do often - and have done in this thread - is point out that while people may have their own preferences, there absolutely are situations or game types where one is generally better than the other. A lot of players that enjoy action combat have absolutely no idea what action combat against a difficult raid encounter would be like in comparison to tab target (understandable, as there are no games with action combat and difficult raid encounters), just as players that like tab targeting have no idea how that kind of PvP compares to action combat PvP (understandable, as these players seem to be the type to generally avoid PvP).
This isn't a hard and fast kind of rule - but it absolutely is the case if we are speaking in general terms.
I disagree, I like both PvE and PvP and I prefer Action Combat - for both of those aspects.
But hey we are all different.
Anyway my initial comment about pitting Action and Tab-target combat up against each other was not aimed to anyone in particular - just my own personal opinion on the subject.
Not raids like BDO, where they are very basic encounters designed to encourage PvP, or TERA, where the end game PvP is limited to 5 people (considered a small group in Ashes).
I'm talking about 20 - 40 people at a time, on an encounter that has an actual script with at least a dozen components to it.
I mean, if you enjoy PvE with action combat, that's fine. We're obviously talking about top end 20 - 40 man MMO raid content here, and you seem to have experience with these encounters and action content that I can't seem to find - so just point me to the game that combines top end 20 - 40 man MMO raid content with action combat and maybe I will share your view on it.
If you want to hit your target, you have to actually *hit* your target.
That isn't exactly hard to do when your target is towering over everyone.
Take action combat, but then remove the need to aim. What do you have left other than an uninteresting version of a tab target combat system?
You either have a massive target so that everyone can get around but that leaves no need to aim, or a small target that require people to aim, but means melee classes are essentially useless.
There are a few gimmicks that could be employed on occasion to attempt to bridge that, but these would need to be used infrequently enough to be considered the exception rather than the rule.
Action combat is for me a lot more than just hitting the target. I don't care if it is Easy or not, I just want to physically hit in order for my swings and spells to actually matter. It adds to the suspension of disbelief.
I am sorry mate, but it feels like you are trying to do exactly what you said you didn't like people doing. You are trying to pit up the "worst" case of action combat with tab targetting.
Anyway to answer your previous question:
In case you meant Top end PvP - it would probably be BDO sieges.
In case you meant PvE 40 man raids - not sure I have experienced that, but I don't see why I would prefer such a raid being tab-target when I like another type/genre of combat in the MMO's i play.
Not trying to convince you to share my point of view, we like two different "genres" of MMO, I like mine with Action Combat and you prefer yours with tab-target from what I understand. Both preferences are absolutely fine.
The whole point of what I am saying in regards to a large target being easy is essentially the reverse of the comments made a while ago in regards to dwarves - if they are significantly smaller than other player races, they will be harder to hit with action combat abilities, and thus harder to kill purely by virtue of the race the player selects.
The reverse of that is that if something is significantly larger, it is easier to hit in action combat, and thus is easier to kill in action combat. I absolutely meant top end PvE - good examples of action combat in PvP are easy to find, good examples of action combat in top end PvP don't currently exist.
There are no really good PvP MMO's with pure tab target combat. There are no really good PvE MMO's with pure action combat.
This is not a coincidence.
Look at all of the abilities that action combat from your favorite game has in relation to movement - either jumping the player character to the mob, or pulling the mob to the player character. Along with aiming, abilities like this are kind of a hallmark of action combat.
Many of them won't work in a raid setting with player collision.
You can't have a raid mob attempt to dodge a projectile either, unless that mob has a dodge that pushes players out of the way (an ok gimmick for the occasional encounter, but any more than 1 in 10 encounters having it will be tacky).
Again, this isn't about preference, this is about what each system can do. Arguably, it could be about preference with each system in regards to different content types if you prefer. You say yourself that you understand I prefer tab target combat - and you're right. Chances are though, if I am going out with the intention of PvP'ing, I'll have an action combat heavy build running, because as I see things right now, that will be more suited to PvP, even if it is not my preference.
I can see the same happening with large scale PvE and tab target.
Edit to add; I'm not specifically saying this is how things absolutely will be in Ashes. Intrepid may well come up with an action combat system where movement and aiming are significantly less important (I won't even pretend to have an idea what that could look like). Or they may come up with something totally different on the content side of things (again, no idea at all what that could look like).
All I'm saying is that all of the action combat systems we have in games to date are not very good at handling a large scale PvE raid encounter - which logically is probably why there are no games currently mixing these two things.
Wanting action combat on raids is fine, people can want it as much as they, well, want. What wanting doesn't do though, is make it fit. Just as me wanting really good PvP with tab targeting is a fine thing to want - but that doesn't mean it will happen.
It's a case of round peg is a square hole - there has to be compromises to either the peg or the hole to make it fit.
1. Hitting large objects in action combat is boring.
2. Being small gives an "advantage" in action combat (Solution to this: see games like Apex Legends - smaller frame lower healthpool etc. etc.)
Those two statements are not antithetical to one another.
I really do believe this is entirely a coincidence if it is the case.
If you compare the amount of Action Combat MMO's with tab target, my guess is that tab-target outweighs action combat with about double the amount if not more.
Out of all those tab-target MMO's, how many have 40 man raid that use the WoW formula? a handful or less?
If my presumption is anywhere near correct and if the amount of MMO's exceed a couple of hundreds, I would say that the chance of it being a coincidence, is pretty darn high.
In this discussion, we are not overly concerned with the smaller target - it was mentioned simply to point out that it is not me that is claiming the larger a target, the easier it is to hit in action combat.
In this discussion, we are only concerned with the large target, and the implications that has with action combat. You are free to believe that, if you wish.
However, I will go over what we have.
First of all, we have a theory that action combat is a challenge to implement in regards to large scale, high end PvP encounters. This is just a theory.
Then we have a complete lack of current action combat games that have any such content in them, despite such content still being extremely popular in MMO's - both by people participating in that content, and in such content keeping people in a given game to attempt to participate in.
Lastly, we have the singular example of an attempt in an action combat based game. It was introduced to the game as a 30 person encounter, then removed from the game soon after. Then it was re-released as a 20 man encounter, and again removed from the game soon after.
So, we absolutely have circumstantial evidence to back up the theory that we have, but literally nothing at all to refute it.
That means that right now, on the preponderance of evidence, the best theory that we have is that action combat and large scale, high end PvP encounters don't mix well. Ashes may well provide evidence in the opposite direction, but as of right now, that is what the evidence that we have says.
Again, you can believe what you want, but just be aware of what it is you are denying.
Why MMO Combat Sucks!
I don't deny anything - other than trying to change the view of someone prefering action combat or tab target is not gonna have an effect. I were specific and careful in the way I worded my sentences.
The first of these things is the timeline.
The 30 man raid was live for around 6 months, and then switches immediately to it's 20 man version which was open for 18 months before beings closed.
To me, this says the 30 man version caused issues. Issues big enough to warrant redoing the zone. It also says that the key thing that solved those issues was dropping the 30 players down to 20.
The fact that the zone was open for a year and a half as a 20 man zone says a lot to me.
Then we can look at the videos of it that are available. Player videos of the 30 man version are rare (I didn't have an exhaustive look, but the only video I saw of the 30 man version was the developers showing the zone off).
There are, however, a number of videos of the 20 man version.
Again, this suggests to me that the 30 man version caused issues, but the 20 man version didn't.
I'd be more than happy to use this to suggest that somewhere between 20 and 30 players is about the most an action combat raid encounter can really support - though I would suggest it is closer to the low end.
While this is anecdotal at this point, I also want to point out that of the few videos I did see of players killing the encounter, melee classes seemed to be under-represented from what I would expect to see in a 20 man raid - which also happens to be a thing I said would happen in a PvE raid with an action combat system.
I'm still saying this is just a theory, but all the evidence so far is pointing towards it being correct.
I'm not sure what that video was for - a lot of what he talked about is outdated now. Most of the MMO's released since that video were action combat. I actually agree with most of what he says in regards to how things were in 2013 when he made the video (this is rare for me - I tend to disagree with almost all MMO YouTubers, as most of them try to pass off their opinion as fact). I will say that he didn't mention skill queues at all, which go a long way to dealing with latency issues due to geographical distance in conjunction with a GCD - I was disappointed with this omission since everything else was fairly complete.
However, nothing in that video has any real relation to action combat against large scale PvE encounters.
It does bring up the question as to what Intrepids plans are for latency mitigation - it's totally off topic, but is not something I've seen anyone ask before.