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How to Overcome the Learning Curve

tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2020 in General Discussion
Hi,

When you first play a new game, the learning curve can be overwhelming. It’s especially true if you don’t have a strong friend group, which I would say is most players.

One feature I believe would be beneficial for intrepid to introduce is that a new player has a special indicator, maybe a gold star, for the first 10 hours on a new server (10 account hours on server). This allows people who have extremely helpful personalities to reach out to those new players, offer them gear and bags, and even try to recruit them, which is a good thing. The more connections you can form with the player, the better the retention.

If you think someone’s suggestion has validity, like it.

What else?

Virtue is the only good.
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Comments

  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    For me when it came to open world mmorpgs, newstart servers were the only answer.
    Even with the help of others, people always feel behind, be it solo-loneliness behind, or our group is not relevant (competitive) behind.
  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    For me when it came to open world mmorpgs, newstart servers were the only answer.
    Even with the help of others, people always feel behind, be it solo-loneliness behind, or our group is not relevant (competitive) behind.

    I hear what you are saying, but eventually, that gap will always open up. It highlights another important issue, which is that the endgame cannot just be a race. There has to be different compelling objectives and different ways to balance the competition. That sounds like a new thread to me ;)

    Virtue is the only good.
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    FFXIV does this...and I absolutely hate it. Mostly hate it because of the mentor system in that game as 98% of mentors do not need to be mentors, they only do it for the little icon they get which is a crown symbol indicative to whatever they are a mentor in. Back to the point though, even if they have already started on another server should they get this too? Who gets to see it? Everyone? idk even with the corruption system I just see that leading to a lot of needless griefing....which in the end if it happens enough loses players.

    I do agree that there should be something at some point that does help vets interweave with newbies, but not right now and not like that. Maybe...maybe only allow mentors to actually see it, in which case we need mentors...and to become a mentor needs to be more than just "having x amount of stars and having done this many dungeon runs, with every class to 50+"
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    The last thing a new player needs on a game that features open world PvP is to have a giant "I'M A NEW PLAYER COME KILL ME" mark over their head.

    Mentor schemes generally don't work either, because the vast majority of "mentors" only do it for the rewards (see FFXIV and GW2 as examples).

    On a side note, I don't understand this mindset a lot of players have of needing to know everything before they start. You see it all the time on discussions:

    "What is the best class to play?"
    "What is the best build for my class?"
    "what is the fastest way to [insert goal here]"

    Can people not think for themselves anymore? Or is the fear that you aren't playing the most "optimal" way so strong that you need to be told everything before you even begin? I don't get it.
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  • The last thing a new player needs on a game that features open world PvP is to have a giant "I'M A NEW PLAYER COME KILL ME" mark over their head.

    Mentor schemes generally don't work either, because the vast majority of "mentors" only do it for the rewards (see FFXIV and GW2 as examples).

    On a side note, I don't understand this mindset a lot of players have of needing to know everything before they start. You see it all the time on discussions:

    "What is the best class to play?"
    "What is the best build for my class?"
    "what is the fastest way to [insert goal here]"

    Can people not think for themselves anymore? Or is the fear that you aren't playing the most "optimal" way so strong that you need to be told everything before you even begin? I don't get it.

    yeah. I dont like asking or answering that because I either have no clue or it takes the fun out of the game for everybody to be doing the same thing.
  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    To Wandering Mist's comment, why not just make someone PvP immune for the first 10 hours of their account?

    Virtue is the only good.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    tugowar wrote: »
    To Wandering Mist's comment, why not just make someone PvP immune for the first 10 hours of their account?

    You could, but then you're getting into a situation of finding solutions to problems that shouldn't exist in the first place.
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  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    It doesn't matter if the problem shouldn't exist. Ganking new players can be a problem. Why not give them protection if it means creating less bad experiences?

    Virtue is the only good.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    tugowar wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if the problem shouldn't exist. Ganking new players can be a problem. Why not give them protection if it means creating less bad experiences?

    Because PvP-immune bots aren’t something any game needs even if it’s just for 10 hours.

    New players shouldn’t be highlighted with “Help me I’m a noob” icons, they’re perfectly capable of asking for assistance if they need it.
  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ok, so this forum thread so far:

    "How do we help retain new players? here's one idea"
    "that's a super shit idea, I hate it!"

    Virtue is the only good.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Player retention is easy if your game doesn’t get stale by design. If nothing changes except on patch day, your retention is gonna stink. The world of Ashes will be in a state of constant change, which will have a rather steep demand on entry to get used to it, but once someone does it keeps things fresh and keeps players returning.

    Adding in gimmicks to be abused does not aid in player retention.
  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Player retention is easy if your game doesn’t get stale by design. If nothing changes except on patch day, your retention is gonna stink. The world of Ashes will be in a state of constant change, which will have a rather steep demand on entry to get used to it, but once someone does it keeps things fresh and keeps players returning.

    Adding in gimmicks to be abused does not aid in player retention.

    You're right. I changed the subject.

    Virtue is the only good.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Provide a role and a purpose for newer players in relation to more experienced and visa versa.

    inclusion rather than exclusion..

    could be as simple as rather than go gather/kill 100 X for leveling a town building, go train a new citizen (group and kill 100 X mobs, a bit of power leveling and cross level partying)

    not all areas but perhaps some so there is a handing down of knowledge and help as part of the roles in the game..

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Caeryl wrote: »
    tugowar wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if the problem shouldn't exist. Ganking new players can be a problem. Why not give them protection if it means creating less bad experiences?

    Because PvP-immune bots aren’t something any game needs even if it’s just for 10 hours.

    New players shouldn’t be highlighted with “Help me I’m a noob” icons, they’re perfectly capable of asking for assistance if they need it.

    This is the reply I was going to give to this point as well.

    My general thought process with suggestions like this is "what would I do to exploit that situation?".

    If I can find something - in this cause using a new account to transport as much material in 10 hours as I can possibly manage - then I have to assume that others can find other things.

    A character - any character - immune to PvP in Ashes is a bad idea.

    What I would do if it were me, is lean heavily on the games official forums. Ensure forum mods are able to give individual posters permission to do what ever is required (post movement, removal, and even poster bans if absolutely needed) as long as they are fostering a thread that is helping a specific segment of the community (a specific class as an example).

    Then, I'd implement an in client browser, so that players can access the game forums without having to alt-tab out of the game. I'd then also have an in client option to set notifications for replys from forum posts, so that players can post in the forums, and then recieve an in game notification if they get a reply.

    What I wouldn't ever want to see in any MMO is the game telling players how to play their chosen class. Most of the time, the developers don't actually completely understand how players actually play any given class (this is why develoeprs in most games need top end content play tested by players, rather than just getting developers to test it out). Due to this, any information on how to play the game should come from other people that play the game.

    There may be a way to do similar with Discord, and if so it would be worth doing similar there as well.

    While this may not be the absolute most efficient way to get information to new players, it is a way to get information to those that actually want that information. It also have few negative side effects in the game itself, which is an obvious bonus.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    tugowar wrote: »
    Ok, so this forum thread so far:

    "How do we help retain new players? here's one idea"
    "that's a super shit idea, I hate it!"

    Well, the reason why I haven't posted a suggestion myself here is because I don't see a problem. As long as there is a short (optional) tutorial that explains the basic controls to new players, I don't feel the need to add anything else. Sure you could put in forum or discord integration into the in-game client as @noaani suggests, but at the end of the day it's up to the players to use that resource, not have it forced upon them by the developers.

    I've said this before, it's pretty much a given that the players will come up with their own strategies and gameplay, and with the power of the internet, share that with others. The information is there and these days it's pretty easy to find. If a new player chooses not to use those resources, they shouldn't complain about the learning curve.
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2020
    I think it would be good if there is no level barrier to the chats. Some MMOs force you to reach a certain level before you can use the chat. I believe most of those are P2W Models. I don't think we need invulnerable new players or flagged new players. I rate immersion quite high in terms of gameplay and differentiating new players doesn't add immersion, it separates the new players from everyone else.
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Neurath wrote: »
    I think it would be good if there is no level barrier to the chats. Some MMOs force you to reach a certain level before you can use the chat. I believe most of those are P2W Models. I don't think we need invulnerable new players or flagged new players. I rate immersion quite high in terms of gameplay and differentiating new players doesn't add immersion, it separates the new players from everyone else.

    Chat restrictions are to help stop gold sellers spamming the chat channels on level 1 characters.
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2020
    Chat Restrictions don't stop Gold Sellers. Dedicated Gold Sellers are seen regardless of chat restrictions. What chat restrictions do is limit the connectivity in a game which is all about connectivity. IS have a pragmatic approach to Gold Sellers and in Everquest they managed to filter out Gold Sellers without limiting the chat for normal players.

    I don't believe a chat restriction should apply based on level. There are better ways to apply chat restrictions.

    Edit: While I can accept few people want level 1's spamming the chat, the level filters i referred to were the level 15 limitations seen in some games. I don't condone Gold Selling, Gold Buying or Third Party Levelling.
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  • MeowsedMeowsed Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2023
    .
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  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    I think it would be good if there is no level barrier to the chats. Some MMOs force you to reach a certain level before you can use the chat. I believe most of those are P2W Models. I don't think we need invulnerable new players or flagged new players. I rate immersion quite high in terms of gameplay and differentiating new players doesn't add immersion, it separates the new players from everyone else.

    Chat restrictions are to help stop gold sellers spamming the chat channels on level 1 characters.

    This is done in Ashes by having no global chat. Guild chat is as close as it’ll get, but no sensible guild is gonna waste a spot on a lvl1, played-for-two minutes character.

    Sure some bots could spam a starter area, but I don’t see a world in which at least one GM isn’t managing those areas on their server to stamp them out.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    leonerdo wrote: »
    I actually think the sprout icon (indicating a new player) is one of the biggest reasons for FFXIV's friendly community.

    How long does the sprout icon remain? I wasn't aware that the sprout icon still applies at max level (I've assumed it does because you mentioned groups and people complaining people can't play their classes).

    We won't know how toxic Ashes community is until we go live. Some people won't accept sprouted players at all, some people would assist sprouted players and obviously some groups will be full of sprouted players at first. You've made valid points and appreciate the in-depth analysis.
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  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    @leonerdo your post is great. I’m just reminding people of brevity with that signature. ;)

    Virtue is the only good.
  • MeowsedMeowsed Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2023
    .
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  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    tugowar wrote: »
    Ok, so this forum thread so far:

    "How do we help retain new players? here's one idea"
    "that's a super shit idea, I hate it!"

    Welcome back to the forums did you miss us :D
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2020
    leonerdo wrote: »
    In any case, it lasts a decently long time. In a way, I suppose it's a double-edge sword, because once you lose the sprout icon, people assume you've been playing long enough to know what you're doing.

    It is good one can end the sprouted icon. I'd prefer something like a Title which goes along with progression. I do like titles. I would love to see funny titles, not just high profile titles, like The Bumbler, The Wanderer, The Fool etc. I think it would add flavour to the levelling process and heighten proficiency at the same time. Though this isn't the title thread lol. I'm not one for stats and titles being mixed.

    I'm rather shocked that you have to complete so much before the sprouted Icon disappears naturally. The beauty of Ashes should be groups of people will progress together so people should be able to play a class in group dynamics.

    I'm not sure where we are up to in terms of progression but I heard a while ago you can't solo to max level or if you do it will take a very long time. It would be better if the sprout icon appeared when you are new to an encounter rather than just playing through the standard material. However, in my old Raids people were always asked if they've done it before and when people reported they were new, the tactics were honed and reiterated and the new players managed the content. I've died many times in new encounters but its the learning curve with the ultimate punishment. I've also done well and not died in new encounters.

    It depends how complex the encounter is and a sprouted Icon won't always dictate when I will die or not. Even with a wealth of experience we all died at tier 4, 5 and 6 raids at first. Its all about nailing the tactics and strategies. I do love to be a pathfinder and I do love funny titles. In terms of Raid progression it is easier to fight new encounters with the relevant armour sets, but again, deaths were frequent on tier 1 raids before tier 1 armour was gleaned. I get excited by the thought. In Ashes much of the Armour will be crafted though so we may see gateways where Armour will dictate who will be allowed to raid and who will be shunned, rather than experience.
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  • tugowar wrote: »
    To Wandering Mist's comment, why not just make someone PvP immune for the first 10 hours of their account?

    what if someone creates an account, but then has work or school?
  • tugowar wrote: »
    To Wandering Mist's comment, why not just make someone PvP immune for the first 10 hours of their account?

    what if someone creates an account, but then has work or school?

    Make it the first 10 hours of online activity then.
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