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A Long Time MMO Player's Fears About Ashes

A little about myself, I have been playing WoW since vanilla and have played many MMOs during my time playing WoW. Some examples are Wildstar, Old Republic, Runescape, BDO, Rift, Archage, Guild Wars 2, Blade and soul, Albion online, Age of Conan, Lost Ark (Through a VPN), Firefall, Maplestory 1 and 2, and Midwinter.

I also have done some of the harder content in these games i have listed, in most of them i have atleast reached End game to a extent. In WoW i have ran about 5 top 100 US guilds and at one time ran 2 at a time with alts i also was in the world first race in early MoP with a guild called TM, in Runescape i attempted to get one of the first quest capes when old school came out and i managed to get one of the first ones, in BDO managed to level multiple characters to soft cap and got most of my boss gear and was able to put the grind in to have a decent about of money in the game and dabbled in its pvp.

Safe to say i probably have left some out, but in general i have tried a lot of MMOs and have been let down many times or have experienced MMOs that play really great and have many great core systems but completely miss the mark on what i enjoy the most in a MMO and why i always go back to WoW over anything else.

For the sake of trying to make this not to long formed ill list my fears first.

Fear 1: The PvE its going to end up being very watered down.

Fear 2: The sacrifice for having pvp in pve content is going to encourage a lot of gate keeping play style over world bosses

Fear 3: By not having meaningful dungeons or raids that can be logged or kept track of through dps meters or other addons the replay value will go away quickly after obtaining whatever item you are looking for.

So ill go over my first fear, that the pve will be watered down. Reason i say this is because from most of what i have heard so far about ashes it is is going to be 40 man content for the harder bosses. On paper more people has always made ppl say its harder content but i have always experienced that the hardest bosses come from well tuned fights and with 40 ppl you start getting into the realm of hyper class stacking and almost always the fights are super easy or just really long bc the Devs in hopes of having a harder fight just add on more HP instead of having meaningful mechanics. A good Example of 40 mans failing would be current classic wow where now that ppl went into it class stacking the content falls over quickly and really anyone could kill all of BWL on a fresh toon with blues bc the bosses are designed for 40 and lack any real mechanics, btw in BDO almost all of the open world bosses are like this too if you go and just tag the boss and no nothing you are still very likely to get loot and the boss itself is a joke and un-fun.

So with that being said what do i consider a meaningful and hard boss to kill, almost always i gravitate to WoW for these meaningful boss encounters and a few examples i have to give are, KJ in legion, Helya in legion, LK in ICC, Unaut in BFA, Mekka in BFA, and Black Hand in WoD. there is many more bosses but for sake of trying to keep this short will go over these.

KJ, Helya, LK, Unaut all require you to keep all 20 of your raiders alive throughout the fight or it is most likely a wipe because of how well tuned these bosses were, and all of them were Extremely satisfying to defeat because of this challenge. And really this challenge only comes from how well tuned the bosses are and i dont see 40mans doing that because in a 20man raid if you mess up your usually really important to the fight no matter what class you are playing, but in a 40man it has to be tuned in a sense that a guild can even get 40 ppl together and because of that the skill requirement has to be lower and therefore on the design side the boss has to be more one dimensional. And its important to add that in 40man raids in Classic or open worlds bosses in almost any game i have played it really feels like a i do not matter at all and what i do will not change the outcome of the fight, which means i could go afk and i probably will still get the same reward that the ppl that stayed trying got.

Its easy to say that the loot master wont give you a item if your afk or not trying on the boss BUT if there is no dps meter or no logs to tell how well i was performing during the fight while others were focused on what they were doing how will anyone really know i was not trying on the kill?

Fear 2: pvp and pve together will force pve to take massive sacrifices for gameplay and encourage gatekeeping.

Important that i explain what i mean by gate keeping, what i mean by it is that people that started out the game grinding first or did there research on the game and leveled faster and geared faster than others can then use there guild to lock down important spawns of bosses and keep others from getting these items and can inflate prices on items that they took control of and either force a player base to join them or be at a permanent dis advantage.

A bad example of this would be devilsuar mafia in WoW classic, which most would say would line up with exactly what i am talking about but it does not because at the end of the day the pants and gloves were only 2 slots of gear and did not matter that much because there was better gear in the game from MC already or gear very close to as good.

But in ashes from what i have seen these bosses will drop complete legendaries or components to legendaries that will not be obtained through other means and with just a little bit of data mining and having ppl take shifts camping spawns and a big enough guild you can make it so that you will get 90% of the kills and have a gear lead to muscle out anyone else that trys to beat your guild on the spawn camp.

Which the most likely outcome like in most others MMOs that have a tag able world boss the 2 or 3 best guilds on the server will have a agreement that they will not kill each other to maintain complete control over the spawns not allowing for any other guild to really catch up.

IMO this game play is considered gate keeping and for a lot of people they want to feel like they are reaching a goal and for many that goal is to make your character as strong as possible but want to achieve that goal playing with there friends or else the game will feel un-fun and sadly this style of world boss design encourages the idea of having to join whatever is the strongest guild on your server just to get tags and that guild is not always likely to take all your friends with you.

Fear 3: By not having meaningful dungeons or raids that can be logged or kept track of through dps meters or other addons the replay value will go away quickly after obtaining whatever item you are looking for.

So in WoW one of the biggest things that have made it a massive success for many years is there raids, and part of that is the competition within the boss itself as you compete in dps against others in your guild to show that you deserve your raid spot or to show others around you that you are improving you also use Logs to compete on a much larger scale.

For example lets say i have all of my BiS gear on my character but i dont enjoy PVP and crafting and gold is not a big thing i care about, so what content do i do besides the same raid bosses the answer is simple i just do those bosses again and again. But as a dps player i dont know how much dmg my gear is really giving me i dont know how much im improving i dont know how well i did this kill of the boss vs my last because both times i lived and death is the only metric to judge how well i am doing. At this point i have no reason to continue to play this game after i got the best gear for my character until more content comes out and if the answer is that the content will just come out fast enough that the player wont out pace the content, i will just say that i have yet to see any MMO out pace the player.

Best part is that this problem has a VERY simple solution, just let the players compete against eachother in PvE, because to a lot of players we love PvE in games way more than PVP and really enjoy the sense of mastering a boss fight and mastering a class on that fight and trying to beat the other people playing your class in other guilds that in some cases are on the other side of the world. ANY MMO can give a sandbox pvp experience with some Bosses to kill but only a FEW can make those bosses meaningful outside of the loot that drops on them and PVE competition is a completely unique experience to MMOs, PVP is not.


I will say this i do look forward to what Ashes has and i just hope that the game comes with some instanced content that is tuned to a very difficult level that rewards the correct gear for its level of difficulty and that there is a system that allows players to compete with other players in a pve setting.
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Comments

  • sorry if any major grammar issues, and just want to say this is my opinion and im not trying to shit on ashes or anything like that i am just giving my opinion i am completely open to others opinions i just wanted to get mine out there because i truly do think the devs on the ashes of creation project are reasonable and listen to what players say.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The biggest concern for me is in trying to make everyone happy they will accidently end up in to many inbetween areas making noone happy. All the things sound great...but also shows lack of focus to wear it can really end up off on some tangent.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I will try to be brief:

    1. PvE Content is planned to be difficult, and will increase in difficulty through expansions. We are in test phases at present and have not seen all classes. It is impossible to state at this time how difficult an encounter will be, to be blunt though, the GMs had to boost their health to 100,000 to complete the 40 Man Dragon, so it would have been much harder without the GMs. The Lore is hidden until launch but I imagine the dungeons will be varied and linked to Lore. There are definitely masses of options that the devs can use. I don't think PvE will be watered down. It has been stated it will take 45 days to reach max level (4-6 game hour sessions a day) so I believe the PvE sounds strong.

    2. There will be so many options available that it is difficult to see how Guilds will be able to bottleneck progression. The reason being, if they are committing their PvPers to block access to PvE, who will be defending the castle or the nodes? Tactics can easily be used to avoid the gateblocked area and just siege down the node. I wouldn't hesitate to hit them where it hurts. I'm not saying either the fight at the gateblocked area or the Node would be simple but it is always fun to catch people when they are distracted. No Guild will be strong enough alone, to match an Alliance of Guilds who decided they've had enough of gateblockers. The World PvP will be a challenge and so too will the PvE. Diplomacy and Trade could also assist you to gain access to restricted areas. If guilds cannot restrict their foes then you would say the PvP was weak and the PvE too strong. It is a delicate balance to be sure. If i had to commit 250 players to attack a Node, I could still have 50 players who could do the 40 man instance.

    3. With no Parser you will watch actual damage numbers, not randomly hit buttons to max out a Parser. While you can gauge where your main damage comes from after a fight with a parser, without a parser you will have to be actively engaged in what your skills are doing. It increases immersion. Items will break in Ashes so you won't be in a situation where you have no reason to repeat some aspects of the game. If you want to repair an item or replace an item you will have to be dedicated at that point. While it does mean you won't have to farm so much, it does mean you will have to partake. You sound addicted to Parsers when you claim the content will be hollow without parsers. Make no mistake, if you slack in a raid people will notice and people do report slackers to the raid leader. It would be up to the raid leader whether to replace a slacker.
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  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Neurath wrote: »
    I will try to be brief:

    1. PvE Content is planned to be difficult, and will increase in difficulty through expansions. We are in test phases at present and have not seen all classes. It is impossible to state at this time how difficult an encounter will be, to be blunt though, the GMs had to boost their health to 100,000 to complete the 40 Man Dragon, .

    They increased their health because noone was over level 10 and most were only level 2-3
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2020
    Aardvark wrote: »
    They increased their health because noone was over level 10 and most were only level 2-3

    Can you glean how difficult the content is by that? I certainly can't. However, we've seen the dragon nuke the 4 GMs without the boost to health, we've seen the team down the Dragon with boosted health. The Point of the matter is that it is not a final rendition or the standard practice. A player will never have 100,000 health irrespective of whether they zerg the Dragon with level 1's. For all I know you might have to be max level to kill the Dragon in the live game.
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  • Many things:

    1- items break down. This mean you will need "raw resources" to repair them
    Raw resources are GATHERABLES
    Processed items are for example ingots made of raw resources (smelting iron ore to iron ingot)

    If you have an epic item, I bet you will need a rare resource to repair it. What does it mean? That more people will farm bosses because either they want to sell the loot or repair their own gear

    2- Steven talked about bosses having a some sort of governing AI, which responds to the party. Let's say you face Boss 1 and kill it super fast. Then Boss will have a different drop table and different mechanics. This means that the encounter will sort of reward you for killing bosses faster but it will also be different and harder because you're clearing content faster.
    This means that the same boss can have a variety of mechanics that are unlocked as you improve your performance, and this also improved your chances are getting better resources.

    3- Completed items, from what I understand, are a rare thing. Bosses will drop materials to funnel the crafting system. This is not Wow where you get a Sword from a boss, or gold from animals. Complete items will happen but are a small % drop.

    4- DPS meters. Yeah, you can do 100000 DPS. Can you do that and be a competent PvPer as well? 80% EIGHTY of the content is OPEN world, this means you can be chilling in your dungeon and an enemy guild comes to take your boss.
    Now your DPS matters, yes, but suddenly your glass cannon build is useless because you're getting one shot by something you can't avoid, people.

    Now, you need to understand that AoC is NOT a PvE game, it's a PvX game. And you won't be able to avoid PvP or the consequences.
    Do you want just to raid endlessly? Well, the raids are getting unlocked through Node progression, and if you're tired of doing the same raid again and again you might have to destroy another Node to get new dungeons unlocked, but that requires PvP!
  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    1. something that came off the back of Asmongold's interview for say dungeon content was: the better you perform as a team in the run, e.g the better you perform boss mechanics and the faster you kill it, the HARDER the next boss is and the better the loot.
    SO - if you are not getting the top loot tables etc. its because your performance, determined by the system, isn't good enough to earn them.
    THUS - PvE for these types of content scale with the ABILITY OF THE PLAYER!
    if you're an elite team, you'll smash out the trash bosses cleanly and get a hard clear!

    2. its a PvX game. Gate keeping is an entirely viable and fair stratergy. Restriction of weaker players is entirely viable and an option.
    you do not have to go to the world boss.
    the world boss is not your ONLY access to top rated gear.
    if you REALLY want that boss, kill them. for them to stop you, they're going to be red or purple. earn your boss.

    3. Neurath put it cleanly, the only thing parsers do is save you some time working the numbers out yourself. you talk of being from past top-rated guilds so you should bew more than equipped to handle something so simple.
    I personally think people have become lazy and reliant of addons. get your head down and crunch some numbers!

    i say that but im 100% not going to do it myself... its monday..
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    300 Players is max guild size, alts would count towards this. So 300 Dedicated Players with no alts would outmatch 250 Players with 50 Alts.

    Multi-accounting is a problem and Mega Guilds are a problem. Mega Guild would be required to be focussed down such as Olympus in WoW (Connected to Devilsaur Mafia). I'm not sure how substantial the buffs would be, however, I'd even fight a larger guild with less players if I knew my players could handle the strain. I love to fight outnumbered but I also seek Allies. You encroach on server balance and server balance will be different on each server.

    Multi-Boxers could also be a problem but time will tell.
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  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    Neurath wrote: »
    300 Players is max guild size, alts would count towards this. So 300 Dedicated Players with no alts would outmatch 250 Players with 50 Alts.

    Multi-accounting is a problem and Mega Guilds are a problem. Mega Guild would be required to be focussed down such as Olympus in WoW (Connected to Devilsaur Mafia). I'm not sure how substantial the buffs would be, however, I'd even fight a larger guild with less players if I knew my players could handle the strain. I love to fight outnumbered but I also seek Allies. You encroach on server balance and server balance will be different on each server.

    Multi-Boxers could also be a problem but time will tell.

    mega-guilds will indeed be an issue, however being too strong, the only people left to fight would be your own people. other people might just set up a new account and join another server and ignore your **** so they can enjoy the game as its intended.
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yeah, I do agree Lafi. The good news is there are no set factions in Ashes so we won't get issues of 99.99% Horde and 00.01% Alliance or similar servers in WoW. I merely use WoW as an example because the OP mentioned WoW. I could use BDO but I did that in a different thread ;)
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  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    Neurath wrote: »
    Yeah, I do agree Lafi. The good news is there are no set factions in Ashes so we won't get issues of 99.99% Horde and 00.01% Alliance or similar servers in WoW. I merely use WoW as an example because the OP mentioned WoW. I could use BDO but I did that in a different thread ;)

    bdo is a bad example, its large-scale pvp dies more and more by the day lol.
    jokes aside, 100% happy with factionless gameplay.
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • hansen22hansen22 Member
    edited July 2020
    My main concern is character movement and combat related to the corrupted and bounty hunter system with Ultima Online. And some us enjoyed Darkfall in 2009 closed beta like Shroud.
    Besides you can block another character path and movement like in the recent Ashes of Creation live video from Twitch, and that is really bad in large scale massive mmo with sieges. So they need to consider ESO style character movements which should be fluid like in Cyrodil battleground. The Ashen of Creation PvP system is much better than faction and Clasic WoW since retail WoW PvP is entirely optional and can be turned on/off by the player. However still really restricted for PvP focused guilds.

    I also listen to Asmongold youtube interview some days ago that 10 flying mounts out of 10k players is a really horrible idea based on rariety or requirement to even own a flying mount, Steven!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0LQSMT83L0&t=2799s

    Because flying mounts is fun and almost everyone want to fly a mount. And risk vs reward system where the risk drop one item while being corrupt is fine. The old fashion risk vs reward system is difficult in an open world sandbox mmo to balance it correctly, but being a bounty hunter now is a huge advantage based on their current pvp system.

    Anyway Ashes of Creation devs should not consider a flying mounts to be that unique, because everyone enjoy a flying mount. Im looking forward to a corrupted PvP challenge for sure.
  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member
    edited July 2020
    hansen22 wrote: »
    My main concern is character movement and combat related to the corrupted and bounty hunter system with Ultima Online, Shadowbane, and Darkfall background in 2009 closed beta like Shroud.
    Besides you can block another character path and movement like in the recent Ashes of Creation live video from Twitch, and that is really bad in large scale massive mmo with sieges. So they need to consider ESO style character movements which should be fluid like in Cyrodil battleground. The Ashen of Creation PvP system is much better than faction and Clasic WoW since retail WoW PvP is entirely optional and can be turned on/off by the player. However still really restricted for PvP focused guilds like LoD, Sinister, Winterblades, Sugoi to mention a few old murder/ PvP foucsed guilds like 250k players who signed for hardcore PvP open world siege war game with inventory drop on death.

    I also listen to Asmongold youtube interview some days ago that 10 flying mounts out of 10k players is a really horrible idea based on rariety or requirement to even own a flying mount, Steven!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0LQSMT83L0&t=2799s

    Because flying mounts is fun and almost everyone want to fly a mount in that fucking carebear faction WoW game with no loot drop on death risk vs reward, where is the risk drop one item while being corrupt? In Crowfall the entire 260k memberbase will be corrupted in Ashes of Creation focus on PvP combat, because that is what the old fashion risk vs reward system is all about in an open world sandbox mmo. WoW Classic start a new character the whole beginner zones are emtpy and barren, and cool downs is so fucking bad that you dont bother with World of Warcraft in 2020. Blizzard are literally miling their old playerbase for garbage mmo that came out in 2004, jebuz fucking christ! I was busy in Shadowbane in a strategic siege war game in 2003 with meaningful PvP and a risk vs reward system in an open sandbox world!

    Anyway steven Ashes of Creation devs should not consider a flying mounts to be that rare or unique, because everyone who play that gimp fuck game with a fuck company like Blizzard want a flying mount, Steven. So no one who will bother with Ashes of Creation will not be happy that flying mounts is so hard to aquire after Ashes launch.

    Flying sucks. In every single game.
    Flying as it exists in AoC it's a great idea.
    Status
    Prestige
    Reverence
    Raining the power on the plebs.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You can also get legendary mounts which will let players fly. You will receive them in egg form and watch them grow - An online Tamagotchi!

    WoW players collect all mounts - I've seen the Mount Offs. WoW players will most likely be some of the first with Legendary Mounts. You can't seem to stop WoW players grabbing mounts!
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  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    hansen22 wrote: »
    My main concern is character movement and combat related to the corrupted and bounty hunter system with Ultima Online, Shadowbane, and Darkfall background in 2009 closed beta like Shroud.
    Besides you can block another character path and movement like in the recent Ashes of Creation live video from Twitch, and that is really bad in large scale massive mmo with sieges. So they need to consider ESO style character movements which should be fluid like in Cyrodil battleground. The Ashen of Creation PvP system is much better than faction and Clasic WoW since retail WoW PvP is entirely optional and can be turned on/off by the player. However still really restricted for PvP focused guilds like LoD, Sinister, Winterblades, Sugoi to mention a few old murder/ PvP foucsed guilds like 250k players who signed for hardcore PvP open world siege war game with inventory drop on death.

    I also listen to Asmongold youtube interview some days ago that 10 flying mounts out of 10k players is a really horrible idea based on rariety or requirement to even own a flying mount, Steven!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0LQSMT83L0&t=2799s

    Because flying mounts is fun and almost everyone want to fly a mount in that fucking carebear faction WoW game with no loot drop on death risk vs reward, where is the risk drop one item while being corrupt? In Crowfall the entire 260k memberbase will be corrupted in Ashes of Creation focus on PvP combat, because that is what the old fashion risk vs reward system is all about in an open world sandbox mmo. WoW Classic start a new character the whole beginner zones are emtpy and barren, and cool downs is so fucking bad that you dont bother with World of Warcraft in 2020. Blizzard are literally miling their old playerbase for garbage mmo that came out in 2004, jebuz fucking christ! I was busy in Shadowbane in a strategic siege war game in 2003 with meaningful PvP and a risk vs reward system in an open sandbox world!

    Anyway steven Ashes of Creation devs should not consider a flying mounts to be that rare or unique, because everyone who play that gimp fuck game with a fuck company like Blizzard want a flying mount, Steven. So no one who will bother with Ashes of Creation will not be happy that flying mounts is so hard to aquire after Ashes launch.

    Flying sucks. In every single game.
    Flying as it exists in AoC it's a great idea.
    Status
    Prestige
    Reverence
    Raining the power on the plebs.

    even asmongold, that WoW guy with 10,000+ viewers regularly in the WoW scene agrees that restricting flying mounts to the select few is a cool idea.
    regarding your point about pvp guilds, the only thing that is restricted, is flagging.
    there is MORE than enough pvp content for hardcore pvp guilds to consume.
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    No mounted combat at present either. While a flying mount would be cool for scouting and battle tactics, it will be timed too. So I think everything will work out.
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  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    Neurath wrote: »
    No mounted combat at present either. While a flying mount would be cool for scouting and battle tactics, it will be timed too. So I think everything will work out.

    this isn't entirely correct. the recent interviews have shared that the mounts given to LEADER ROLES - mayors and castle owners - will posess combat ability. e.g huge breathes of fire raining upon your foes.
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Hmm. It will be weird seeing my flying mount shooting fire...I don't like incongruence. Might have to not use a cosmetic which has been bought in falsified circumstances...
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  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    Neurath wrote: »
    Hmm. It will be weird seeing my flying mount shooting fire...I don't like incongruence. Might have to not use a cosmetic which has been bought in falsified circumstances...

    going to see an articuno-styled bird shoot lightning with it's fire-infused talons!
    FeelsGoodMan
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    @Seethrowwar

    Hey bud, welcome.

    When you are coming out of the wow mindset, the focus is on raids for the sake of better gear and the challenge of the raid itself. It’s a little bit different in AoC. No doubt, getting a legendary items - which are truly legendary/unique - and finishing content is going to be a big part of the endgame, but it’s a means to an end. The end is on the social side. You get better gear, you do the content, so that you are more effective at punishing enemy player factions through sieges and PVP.

    The world can have up to five metropolises at a time, but getting any one area to a metropolis will require conquest and determination, while others are attacking you to get their own metropolis up. Even being able to experience some of that content is gated behind getting your metropolis leveled up. (Perhaps the area where you leveled your node doesn’t even have access to a particular best in slot item? Idk; that’s me speculating).

    Layer in the castle system and the economy on top of that, and there become a bunch of dynamics that have to be managed to allow you to get best in slot gear and items. It’s not as simple as beat the raid.

    Hugs and tugs,
    - tugowar

    Virtue is the only good.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Lafi wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Hmm. It will be weird seeing my flying mount shooting fire...I don't like incongruence. Might have to not use a cosmetic which has been bought in falsified circumstances...

    going to see an articuno-styled bird shoot lightning with it's fire-infused talons!
    FeelsGoodMan

    Doesn't Articuno do frost damage? Inverted Aricuno for the win!
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • hansen22hansen22 Member
    edited July 2020
    I also listen to Summit1g & Shroud who talked to Steven like yesterday on Twitch live - so consider fluid character movements without options to block character paths and movements, and look into that issue and solve it early as possible in Ashes of Creation in massive combat scale it is really important, Steven.

    I`m truely excited for Ashes of Creation future development even though it is a carebear PvP system and bounty system, but it`s fine since I really like the Node concept and other major systems within the Ashen of Creation the whole mmo package, well done!
    But remember to add respec character options for (end game/max character level), because combat meta will be important in such large mmo open world sandbox for experienced strategic PvP war guilds, and some are original from the old Ultima Online days in 97.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't think you can call it a care bear PvP System. Node Sieges will be frequent and if you lose a Node Siege you could lose weeks of work. I take the corruption system for what it is and its worked in other games. Games with fond memories. Death Penalties are also present which a lot of care bear MMOs don't implement. There is no toggle for PvP (Unless its changed because the tests had them trying to unflag) so WoW is more care bear than Ashes.
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  • Neurath the issue i see with that dragon example is not that its tuned really good or bad that obviously is not something to debate, the issue on something like that is just the lack of any interesting mechanics it had basic dragon mechanics i think we all have seen 100s of times now and spawned some simple adds. There was not follow the leader style of mechanic or any bullet hell styles or any deal with 6 different debuffs and each one do a different thing. It was just a simple dragon fight that lacked any sense of challenge besides well it may have really good number scaling, thats not fun imo.
  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    edited July 2020
    hansen22 wrote: »
    I also listen to Summit1g & Shroud who talked to Steven like yesterday on Twitch live - so consider fluid character movements without options to block character paths and movements, and look into that issue and solve it early as possible in Ashes of Creation in massive combat scale it is really important, Steven.

    I`m truely excited for Ashes of Creation future development even though it is a carebear PvP system and bounty system, but it`s fine since I really like the Node concepts and other major systems within the Ashen of Creation the whole mmo package, well done!

    blocking characters is intentional, its not a bug or an issue. you won't be stacking a 250 man zerg in a 5m space. This is VERY important for large scale content as it reduces the impacts of zerg play.
    your healer's AOEs are not going to cover every single member in your zerg.
    Your stragglers are going to get spiked and killed.
    BUT
    you'll do that to my guys too.
    and that'll happen while both our lines of shield slaves slash at eachother and act as a wall to protect the backline.

    carebear?
    wait, what, how?
    because it's not a full loot mmorpg?
    FL doesn't work within a PvX game.
    well, FL can't work within PvX games from an open world perspective.

    its not a hardcore mmo ^^
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2020
    Edit: @Seethrowwar

    I haven't been impressed by the lizard-boss, the dragon or the Brood Queen. I've seen so many mushrooms I could get higher than a kite. The main difference between us is to me PvE means I can PvP better but PvP is my focus. I can't speak for the live dungeons and raids. I assume they will be better.

    Ashes has a lot of unfinished applications at present. It is advised to wait until NDA is lifted and more of the game can be seen. I don't advise you to buy any packages at present unless you have already. If you have massive doubts then I wouldn't want to force you into a wrong move.
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  • Lafi to the last thing you said i have raided before logs were big and such and tbh content is easy its really who you are playing against, to assume that i rely on logs to see how to play is just odd. I look at logs so i can beat others and compare its more of a collaborative effort to challenge yourself to do better. For anyone that looks a logs to get a cheat sheet on how to play a game they are already behind the curve in theorycrafting and parsing always.

    To the first note you said thats dungeon content and not raid content that just sounds like a redesign of mythic + its not exactly new content or ground breaking. And to the gatekeeping thing most games that have heavy gate keeping on world content dont promote good play it only promotes good control of logistics and recruiting it becomes a battle of numbers and not of skill, the ideal world is that all guilds will run really cool and interesting tactics but even in wow classic that has millions of ppl playing there is only 1 or 2 guilds that even try world pvp tactics on a massive scale and all the others just zerg pvp with numbers and remove all sense of skill.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2020
    WoW is an unbalanced game. It was at inception. Horde Racials were better for PvP and Alliance racials were better for PvE. A game with two factions is really poor design on paper. You need at least three factions if you're doing factions, but more factions is preferred. The reason being 1v1 people get bored, 1v1v1 means 2 factions can ally against a 3rd, but more factions mean multiple alliances.

    More alliances, more fights, more fun.

    Edit: I left World PvP Heaven in SWG (2 Factions) when the combat upgrade 2 happened. WoW couldn't hold me longer than a year. People don't play WoW to World PvP, most play WoW for the PvE, for the RP, for the progression and for the constant updates.
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  • hansen22hansen22 Member
    edited July 2020
    @Lafi I read about Ashes of Creation combat system years ago, and right now many will go grey and bounty hunting, because they can PvP without much risk to lose items vs corruped like players from Darkfall & Crowfall which is mainly small PvP focused mmos.
    And Bounty hunters can track corrupted guilds and players and that is a huge advantage being grey like in Ultima Online PvP system with murders and Gordon Walton from Star Wars Galaxies who are now busy in Crowfall.

    Yeah I know it is not a hardcore mmo and it is fine, but many old PvP guilds who are consider hardcore in mmo or pvp focused guilds are watching the development of Ashes of Creation as well.

    Yes about character movement it depends on character powers and spell/power distant/range on each class in AoC if you consider player stacking would be an issue. It would be blocking tactics with really large scale combat events and siege wars in narrow terrain and inside cities with building structures and streets, or inside a forest which could be narrow as well or a narrow Dale entrance.
    So I see character movement an issue how it is right now so you can active coordinate to block out your enemies in narrow passage ways inside a city for example.
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