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Multiboxing input and why its p2w

edited July 2020 in General Discussion
So I watched the AMA and heard multiboxing is acceptabl. Now I dont know much about the game itself, but not allowing macros etc. i dont know how that will be implemented. What i'm aware of is that it is supposed to not be P2W and here is where i believe multiboxing is pretty much pay to win. You get a crafter set up and have 10 different crafters, now you send all those 10 differenct crafters to different locations and since nodes are time based you can set up a rotating system to gather those nodes and move the characters on each box to different locations, if there is auto run that makes things easier. This p2w, people are paying for multiple accounts to gather at multiple locations to gather and mine resources. PvP exists, but now people have to punish themselves to stop a multiboxer. You are paying for multiple accounts to gather or do things at different locations. Simply alt tabing through the different boxes takes little to no effort. Now you are multi boxing different auctions at the same time working the economy left and right. How did this person get these advantages? They paid for them. Its P2W. You dont need a macro to do these specific things and im pretty sure there will be numerous ways to manually abuse the system by paying to have multiple characters.

This to me is the biggest contradiction to P2W I can see so far. FF14 essentially removed the need to multibox because you could be everything, but when you allow a small amount this is how you create a p2w environment. People with money have no need to care about restrictions. There are 4 categories of a player. People with time, people with money, people with skill and people with both time, money, and skill. However you want to wage the whom can beat whom in these categories, there is one that will always win no matter what. Time skill and money. Those people you can never over come with either time or skill alone as money is the single determining factor.

This all encompasses crafting as well. What can crafting benefit? All aspects of the game. What can abusing the economy by conducting auctions in multiple locations through trading resources etc.? People that can multibox multiple accounts. The person with time, money, and skill now is capable over being better then any player without money.

TLDR; Multiboxing is p2w 2 EX. crafting/gathering multiple locations at once and abusing auctions/economy through numerous accounts at once that require 0 macros.

Edit: Please excuse my ignorance if I dont understand something, but this is simply my take and why multiboxing can be bad.
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Comments

  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Right, this is literally the third thread made in the last 2 hours regarding this topic, and so far nobody has offered a solution. Give us a solution or stop making threads over and over and over please.
    volunteer_moderator.gif
  • edited July 2020
    The point of feedback isnt to "give" a solution. I dont have a solution. If I could create solutions like this, I would be a game designer since creating solutions for a game would then be my passion. You dont tell someone you arent allowed to voice your opinion unless you have a solution to give me.

    There are people working on this game far better at creating solutions, but stephen explicitly said he had no problem with multiboxing and stated this game isnt p2w.
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I have multiboxed in the past. I have 2 computers, and I had 2 keyboards and 2 mice. I did everything manually (including moving). I did it badly, but I did it. Was it worth it? Not really. I just wanted to see what the hoorah was about.

    Now, the people who use scripts are botting, which should be banned. But IP blocking is not going to work.

    But a lot of people say that multiboxing is P2W, and I can verify that it is not really worth the effort.
  • edited July 2020
    I have multiboxed in the past. I have 2 computers, and I had 2 keyboards and 2 mice. I did everything manually (including moving). I did it badly, but I did it. Was it worth it? Not really. I just wanted to see what the hoorah was about.

    Now, the people who use scripts are botting, which should be banned. But IP blocking is not going to work.

    But a lot of people say that multiboxing is P2W, and I can verify that it is not really worth the effort.

    There will be no lifers that do think it is worth it. I.E logging off characters specifically at rare nodes and only logging them on to gather the nodes. People will learn rare node rotations unless they have like 1000s of different rotating locations for the nodes. You dont need to put a whole lot of effort into moving a character to a location to simply gather and log them off till the node spawns or just leave them there till it spawns.
  • tugowartugowar Member, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    unknown.png

    Virtue is the only good.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The point of feedback isnt to "give" a solution. I dont have a solution. If I could create solutions like this. I would be a game designer since creating solutions for a game would then be my passion. You dont tell someone you arent allowed to voice your opinion unless you have a solution to give me.

    There are people working on this game far better at creating solutions, but stephen explicitly said he had no problem with multiboxing and stated this game isnt p2w.

    Steven literally acknowledged that multiboxing is a problem. You coming on here saying it as well is NOT helpful feedback, especially when there are already

    1. https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44902/some-feedback-from-todays-ama#latest
    2. https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44890/multiboxing-is-p2w#latest
    3. https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44407/bots-and-multibox#latest

    threads on the subject already on the first page of these forums.
    volunteer_moderator.gif
  • So you can not multibox with 3 different accounts on 3 different monitors?
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2020
    You said multiboxing is P2W. I can verify it isn't.
    Multiboxing is running 2 computers at the same time without running scripts. Logging off and on is just using multiple accounts. Not boxing. That is the same as logging in all your alts. No problem.

    Edit:
    Can nobody actually use the search function? There are multiple threads of the same things popping up by the hour.
  • tugowartugowar Member, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The point of feedback isnt to "give" a solution. I dont have a solution. If I could create solutions like this. I would be a game designer since creating solutions for a game would then be my passion. You dont tell someone you arent allowed to voice your opinion unless you have a solution to give me.

    There are people working on this game far better at creating solutions, but stephen explicitly said he had no problem with multiboxing and stated this game isnt p2w.

    Steven literally acknowledged that multiboxing is a problem. You coming on here saying it as well is NOT helpful feedback, especially when there are already

    1. https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44902/some-feedback-from-todays-ama#latest
    2. https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44890/multiboxing-is-p2w#latest
    3. https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44407/bots-and-multibox#latest

    threads on the subject already on the first page of these forums.

    Steven literally asked them in the call to action to come and make these threads. You’re gonna have to just calm down and get used to the new norm.

    Virtue is the only good.
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You do know that you can have multiple characters on a single account? We don't know the final number yet, just that it will be a "comfortable amount." Nothing stopping me from have characters parked at gatherable node spawns on the map (beyond of course the fact that resources once depleted spawn randomly somewhere on the world map from their last announced plan). No need to multibox, can do it all with just one account.
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  • edited July 2020
    You said multiboxing is P2W. I can verify it isn't.
    Multiboxing is running 2 computers at the same time without running scripts. Logging off and on is just using multiple accounts. Not boxing. That is the same as logging in all your alts. No problem.

    I can run multiple accounts of ff14 on one computer in a virtual environment. You dont need multiple computers to multibox.
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Technically, virtual computers are still considered different computers...
  • edited July 2020
    You do know that you can have multiple characters on a single account? We don't know the final number yet, just that it will be a "comfortable amount." Nothing stopping me from have characters parked at gatherable node spawns on the map (beyond of course the fact that resources once depleted spawn randomly somewhere on the world map from their last announced plan). No need to multibox, can do it all with just one account.

    I did not know this. That does change things and puts me a little at ease, is there a character limit? If so multiboxing still can be used and abused by having 30 characters etc. spread across the world. Having multiple characters on account kinda makes it even easier to multibox on a larger scale.
  • Technically, virtual computers are still considered different computers...

    You still dont need to do it on a virtual either. You can multibox with one computer.
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  • Tsukasa wrote: »
    Anyone defends multi-boxing needs to shut their mouth. There is literally nothing good about it. Ruins every game!

    Any small advantage is an advantage, therefore P2W.
    Also when Steven said "it'a like second account" instead of alt for primary account. He said the same in 2017 to alts in the same account making the owner self-sufficient. This mentality could kill the game!

    "We don't know how to stop it" is not an excuse to allow it. Simple as that.

    It just needs to be bannable, so a lot less people will abuse it. Then the rest is up to the community to report suspicious activities for investigation.

    I dont know about the hostility, but if people can do it, they will find a way to abuse it. Gathering/Crafting and Auctions abuse though in this case are the biggest offenders and will outright have the potential to destroy the economy.
  • 0rio0rio Member
    tugowar wrote: »
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    Based off this, is Steven's interpretation of multiboxing running one client on multiple computers? When I think of multiboxing (and I think a lot of other people) is one computer running multiple clients. If it's Steven's interpretation, and not the latter, I'm ok with it - I intend to play with the gf, so it's almost mandatory. However, if it does in fact include the latter, I am against it.
  • JahlonJahlon Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If you get caught running bots, scripts, or macros say goodbye your 10 accounts.

    Its just that simple.
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    Make sure to check out Ashes 101
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  • GenaroGenaro Member
    Yeah, it can be very very bad for the health of the economy ingame to allow multibox WITH script/macros at the same time, in which you can manage multiple clients pushing only one button and all of them obey the same command. If you don't allow the use scripts and macros, or at least making them a bannable reason, forcing multi boxers to play manually, I don't it as a great problem. In fact, I would be impressed by such skill.
  • JahlonJahlon Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tsukasa wrote: »
    Jahlon wrote: »
    If you get caught running bots, scripts, or macros say goodbye your 10 accounts.

    Its just that simple.

    Botting != Multi Accounting

    I didn't say it did.

    I will be running 2 accounts. I do it old school. Two keyboards, two mice, two PCs.

    hpsmlCJ.jpg
    Make sure to check out Ashes 101
  • MrScrewtapeMrScrewtape Member
    edited July 2020
    Basing comments on definition of
    -Multi-boxing as = Someone is physically at the desktop manually inputting commands (maybe assisted with macros/scripts, though that is a slippery slope).
    -Botting = 100% unattended play requiring zero input.



    The time investment to go after Multi-boxing would be a massive cost to intrepid for very little return. The amount of effort to try and identify someone at the machine interacting with both/all clients is near impossible. GM shows up, starts asking questions, and the HUMAN sitting there replies and responds, very easy to pretend to be two people, can even spoof different IPs for each client.

    Botting on the other hand can be detected easier by first automation monitoring (pretty slick open source pattern recognition stuff is out there that could be monitoring client behaviors). Then when/if a GM shows up to challenge botters they can easily detect if it's a Bot. I think 99% of us who've played MMOs with Bots all can easily identify them without much issue.

    Now Multi-boxing won't break the game, but Botting 100% will. I've quite several MMOs simply due to Bots running the server, along with many others.

    Botting / Gold Sellers / (companies/groups using 3rd party tools to play the game for money) will kill the game very quickly if people see 100's of bots running around killing everything and harvesting all the resources. I would rather 110% of effort be put into dealing with this type of stuff than wasting any time having a GM talk to a guy running two accounts with some fancy scripts trying to figure out if he is breaking terms of services while 100's of bots are ruining zones.
  • KaenKaen Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Most people aren't going to want to pay for two accounts and go through the effort of multi-boxing, and in a game like this it might not even have any real advantages. Anyway, people who run two accounts do not bother me. I've done this in UO, EQ, and DAoC for various reasons (out of group buffs, transportation, crafting during mana recovery, etc...). I don't know if I'll care enough or want to do this in AoC even if it is beneficial.

    My problem with multiboxing is one person running a team of characters that is essentially controlled via one input source (one keyboard). I've seen farmers in DAoC take out dragons by themselves through multiboxing. I've seen AoE multibox groups for dungeon farming/pvp. In WoW I've seen multiboxers running 5 or 6 shamans or mages or whatever, even in battlegrounds. That's the kind of thing that really bugs me.

    If someone wants to run an extra account for whatever reason, whatever. It's more money for the game, makes the server feel a little more full, and very likely will not have a significant impact on anything (since most people won't bother with it in the first place). But even a single player who is controlling 5 active accounts at the same time can be extremely disruptive to all players in an area and provides a tremendously unfair advantage in PvP. Imagine PKer controlling 5 naked mages running around killing people... Also, I would consider controlling multiple characters with one keystroke "botting", which should be an immediate ban imho.
  • traveler674traveler674 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I already posted that in discord but I believe it is good be seen here as well. I really hate to see AOC accepting multiboxing, it destroys immersion in-game, gives an advantage to solo players (soloing group quests for example), and gives an unfair advantage to people trying to avoid social interaction, that's my opinion, its only good to make extra money for the company and nothing good for the community, as well it promotes motivation for sellers of characters leveling service and game currency selling for real money... If a person is using multiple computers and manually inputting the commands for all his/her characters it is fine, but then you see a group of almost same dressed characters casting same skills on the mobs in perfect synchronicity and movement it should be banned because there is no way it is controlled by simple macros and looks like scripts. So far that is the only thing I don't like about the game, other than that I'm looking forward to play this game.
  • NiraadaNiraada Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2020
    Jahlon wrote: »
    Tsukasa wrote: »
    Jahlon wrote: »
    If you get caught running bots, scripts, or macros say goodbye your 10 accounts.

    Its just that simple.

    Botting != Multi Accounting

    I didn't say it did.

    I will be running 2 accounts. I do it old school. Two keyboards, two mice, two PCs.

    You can save yourself a headache with a KVM switch for the keyboard and mouse. Connect Keyboard and mouse to the KVM, connect KVM to both pcs, and then all you need to do is toggle the KVM to determine which computer receives the inputs.

    Really makes managing your desk space a lot easier x.x
  • StevenSharifStevenSharif Member, Avatar of the Phoenix, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Based on today’s feedback I have directed the community team to post the next dev discussion on the subject of multi boxing.
  • Based on today’s feedback I have directed the community team to post the next dev discussion on the subject of multi boxing.

    its definitely a sore spot for most people. While it wont be possible to satisfy everyone on this topic I think a compromise we can all accept is quite possible. The only question I have from a design perspective really is it even possible to develop useful administrator tools to combat those who take it to far with botting?
  • edited July 2020
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  • Honestly, if you value a game so much, that you are willing to buy like 10 subs, a PC that can run the game 10 times and are able to do it without botting...
    Seriously, just go for it, at this point it seems being ahead of everyone else be the only thing that brings you joy in your life, which is kinda sad...

    I am pretty sure that Multiboxing will stay a Problem forever since there isnt anything you can really do against it, but I hav eyet to see it become a big problem...

    I mean, lets be honest, how is Multiboxing worse than lets say be a successfull Streamer and have your sheeps flodd you with ressources? And since the Streamers Sheeps are literally just in the game to support their Senpai/Waifu, isnt it basically the same as someone p0laying on multiple accounts at the same time with the goal to make his main account stronger?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Based on today’s feedback I have directed the community team to post the next dev discussion on the subject of multi boxing.

    Please make sure that the question differentiates between multiboxing and botting.
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