Multiboxing input and why its p2w

So I watched the AMA and heard multiboxing is acceptabl. Now I dont know much about the game itself, but not allowing macros etc. i dont know how that will be implemented. What i'm aware of is that it is supposed to not be P2W and here is where i believe multiboxing is pretty much pay to win. You get a crafter set up and have 10 different crafters, now you send all those 10 differenct crafters to different locations and since nodes are time based you can set up a rotating system to gather those nodes and move the characters on each box to different locations, if there is auto run that makes things easier. This p2w, people are paying for multiple accounts to gather at multiple locations to gather and mine resources. PvP exists, but now people have to punish themselves to stop a multiboxer. You are paying for multiple accounts to gather or do things at different locations. Simply alt tabing through the different boxes takes little to no effort. Now you are multi boxing different auctions at the same time working the economy left and right. How did this person get these advantages? They paid for them. Its P2W. You dont need a macro to do these specific things and im pretty sure there will be numerous ways to manually abuse the system by paying to have multiple characters.

This to me is the biggest contradiction to P2W I can see so far. FF14 essentially removed the need to multibox because you could be everything, but when you allow a small amount this is how you create a p2w environment. People with money have no need to care about restrictions. There are 4 categories of a player. People with time, people with money, people with skill and people with both time, money, and skill. However you want to wage the whom can beat whom in these categories, there is one that will always win no matter what. Time skill and money. Those people you can never over come with either time or skill alone as money is the single determining factor.

This all encompasses crafting as well. What can crafting benefit? All aspects of the game. What can abusing the economy by conducting auctions in multiple locations through trading resources etc.? People that can multibox multiple accounts. The person with time, money, and skill now is capable over being better then any player without money.

TLDR; Multiboxing is p2w 2 EX. crafting/gathering multiple locations at once and abusing auctions/economy through numerous accounts at once that require 0 macros.

Edit: Please excuse my ignorance if I dont understand something, but this is simply my take and why multiboxing can be bad.

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DontTouchMyHoHos

phdmonster wrote: »

I feel like a lot of people don't know the difference between multi-boxing and botting/scripting.

What I described in my first post requires zero botting and scripting to achieve.

Songcaller

It would not be botting to control 5 at the same time. Botting is non player interaction gameplay. The arguments are so entwined at this point it's silly. I've seen people claim family gamers would be penalised if multiboxing is dealt with. Multiboxing happens when multiple clients are open and a third party software synchronises key presses, thus all clients operate at the same time. Having two clients open with two keyboards isnt multiboxing because there is no synchronised key presses, each one is operated manually. The confusion and fear is valid but misinformation runs rife.

Undead Canuck

Read all of my posts. You cannot control them at the same time, so what bonus do you get?

DontTouchMyHoHos

Undead Canuck wrote: »

Read all of my posts. You cannot control them at the same time, so what bonus do you get?

Being at 5 different locations at the exact same time to gather from 5 different locations. Being at 5 different auctions to manipulate the market. This was all explained in the first post.

Songcaller

Multi accounts is a different problem. Multiboxing is literally 20 or more accounts on follow doing group content. It is not 5 separate accounts doing separate things - that would be multi accounting. We will never resolve this issue if three separate issues are rolled under an umbrella term.

DontTouchMyHoHos

Here is another thing I can add, if there is a follow feature you can essentially drag around multiple accounts to a location and gather in those areas. You are paying to have this advantage.

Undead Canuck

And you specified that you cannot control all of them at the exact same time. So there goes your whole discussion.

Tell you what. You run 5 instances on your 1 computer (and pay for all). I will get 4 friends, and we will all see who can manipulate the market the best.

DontTouchMyHoHos

Neurath wrote: »

Multi accounts is a different problem. Multiboxing is literally 20 or more accounts on follow doing group content. It is not 5 separate accounts doing separate things - that would be multi accounting. We will never resolve this issue if three separate issues are rolled under an umbrella term.

multiboxing is multiaccounting. Multiboxing is having multiple instances of the client running, how does that happen? By having multiple accounts.

DontTouchMyHoHos

Undead Canuck wrote: »

And you specified that you cannot control all of them at the exact same time. So there goes your whole discussion.

Tell you what. You run 5 instances on your 1 computer (and pay for all). I will get 4 friends, and we will all see who can manipulate the market the best.

I dont need to control them all at the same time. You learn where the resource nodes spawn and move the character to that location. Eventually through time people are going to learn the respawn rotations and timers for the nodes and will set up timed routes. FF14 does it and you dont have access to that information. It was created by the players. There is an entire website dedicated to timers/locations of each nodes and its easy to set up routes. If you have multiple characters at different locations all I have to do is log on. You require 4 additional people to make this happen and I simply can do this by myself. You pay to be the equivalent of 5 people by your logic. It doesnt take a whole lot of effort to log in when nodes spawn mine and log off so they dont die. You also require 4 friends to be on at the same time every time you log on to do this.

You seem to forgot money isnt an issue for some people and they dont really care what others think when they drop 10k on a video game. That's where it comes into the area of people paying to win. They spend money and gain an advantage a single person cannot.

Songcaller

Multiboxing requires third party software to regulate all accounts at a time with one key press. It does require multi accounting but multi accounting is a completely different operation than multiboxing. Multiboxing isnt even botting. Check out the interview with a multiboxer on youtube if you dont understand the terminologies because all of this hysteria isnt good.

DontTouchMyHoHos

To add to this even further. A Game like FF14 makes it easy to run routes because you can fast travel everywhere. A game where fast travel is super limited. If there are resources on the other side of the map. I can have multipl characters spread out across the land to gather these resources without the need for fast travel at all.

DontTouchMyHoHos

Neurath wrote: »

Multiboxing requires third party software to regulate all accounts at a time with one key press. It does require multi accounting but multi accounting is a completely different operation than multiboxing. Multiboxing isnt even botting. Check out the interview with a multiboxer on youtube if you dont understand the terminologies because all of this hysteria isnt good.

Multiboxing requires that if you want to control them at the same time, but what im talking about you simply just alt+tab through the multiple clients. Forgot the controlling them at the exact same time, you just simply tab through the clients. Its immensely less effort to multibox multiple accounts than to simply log off, log on, log off, log on. You can have all accounts logged on at the same time tabbing through the clients.

Undead Canuck

Neurath wrote: »

Multiboxing requires third party software to regulate all accounts at a time with one key press. It does require multi accounting but multi accounting is a completely different operation than multiboxing. Multiboxing isnt even botting. Check out the interview with a multiboxer on youtube if you dont understand the terminologies because all of this hysteria isnt good.

That is botting, and it is already on the radar to be policed. Multiboxing is being at multiple computers (even if they are virtual) and controlling each by yourself.

DontTouchMyHoHos

Undead Canuck wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Multiboxing requires third party software to regulate all accounts at a time with one key press. It does require multi accounting but multi accounting is a completely different operation than multiboxing. Multiboxing isnt even botting. Check out the interview with a multiboxer on youtube if you dont understand the terminologies because all of this hysteria isnt good.

That is botting, and it is already on the radar to be policed. Multiboxing is being at multiple computers (even if they are virtual) and controlling each by yourself.

You dont even need a virtual environment to run multiple instances. isboxer is software that allows multiple instances in one environment.

Marscelllo

Undead Canuck wrote: »

You said multiboxing is P2W. I can verify it isn't.
Multiboxing is running 2 computers at the same time without running scripts. Logging off and on is just using multiple accounts. Not boxing. That is the same as logging in all your alts. No problem.

Edit:
Can nobody actually use the search function? There are multiple threads of the same things popping up by the hour.

Multiboxing has multiple meanings, you can use multiple computers or you can set up a virtual environment on your ONE computer running the game on both. I used to do it with Perfect World International (it was permitted), it is definitely a P2W feature, If you can do multiple things at one time to save you time and money being in 2(multiple) places at once how is that not p2w? Now only the Virtual environment or multiple clients running on the ONE computer should not be allowed, the first i don't view as P2W in any sense.

Now Steven has stated "My position is that launching multiple applications on a single computer will be prohibited, but multi boxing from separate computers is acceptable, as long as the client that's running is not under any 3rd party program or macros. " - 7/26/2020 11:13 am (Discord, news-aoc).

so from what his opinion is, if someone wants to use multiple computers and have one account on each that is allowed and it should be, it would be almost impossible without asking personal questions if you're using multiple accounts or is your roommate (used in a broad sense to cover anyone living with you family or not) also playing the game with you in the same or another room. So if they want to pay a subscription fee for multiple accounts on different computers they should be allowed to, and that shouldn't be considered p2w, but if they want to use a third-party program or complex (up to AOC how they define complex) macro that should not be allowed.

phdmonster

Alright, so what's your solution to the problem?
Like, the developers have already aknowledged that it is one.

I get wanting to voice a concern, but just saying 'x is bad' is not really helping anyone.

DontTouchMyHoHos

Marscelllo wrote: »

Undead Canuck wrote: »

You said multiboxing is P2W. I can verify it isn't.
Multiboxing is running 2 computers at the same time without running scripts. Logging off and on is just using multiple accounts. Not boxing. That is the same as logging in all your alts. No problem.

Edit:
Can nobody actually use the search function? There are multiple threads of the same things popping up by the hour.

Multiboxing has multiple meanings, you can use multiple computers or you can set up a virtual environment on your ONE computer running the game on both. I used to do it with Perfect World International (it was permitted), it is definitely a P2W feature, If you can do multiple things at one time to save you time and money being in 2(multiple) places at once how is that not p2w? Now only the Virtual environment or multiple clients running on the ONE computer should not be allowed, the first i don't view as P2W in any sense.

Now Steven has stated "My position is that launching multiple applications on a single computer will be prohibited, but multi boxing from separate computers is acceptable, as long as the client that's running is not under any 3rd party program or macros. " - 7/26/2020 11:13 am (Discord, news-aoc).

so from what his opinion is, if someone wants to use multiple computers and have one account on each that is allowed and it should be, it would be almost impossible without asking personal questions if you're using multiple accounts or is your roommate (used in a broad sense to cover anyone living with you family or not) also playing the game with you in the same or another room. So if they want to pay a subscription fee for multiple accounts on different computers they should be allowed to, and that shouldn't be considered p2w, but if they want to use a third-party program or complex (up to AOC how they define complex) macro that should not be allowed.

Virtual environments remove the multiple computer feature. Albeit it consumes more resources.

DontTouchMyHoHos

phdmonster wrote: »

Alright, so what's your solution to the problem?
Like, the developers have already aknowledged that it is one.

I get wanting to voice a concern, but just saying 'x is bad' is not really helping anyone.

Steven wanted people like me to come to the forums and post my thoughts. Im not well versed in how to design a solution. Saying X is bad is exactly what Steven said in his AMA. To come here and talk about experiences. You dont discuss bugs and say, "Well if you dont know how to fix the bug why did you post." Im not paid to create solutions, but I do know as a consumer what I do and dont like, which is what Stevens wanted me to voice.

Loyheta

In my opinion there is zero legitimately good reason to multibox. There is only profit at the cost of more subs (literally paying to profit).

The negatives far outweigh the positives, if there are any. Negatives include fundamentally ruining any pvp you are involved with. If you can target the same character and obliterate them, I don't see how that isn't unfair/p2w. If you can farm resources with multiple accounts, how isn't that p2w? If you can set up your freeholds next to each other and fully collect, process, and craft items without having to worry about others dictating prices, how is that not p2w?

Multiboxing removes the social aspect of the game which is one of the most important parts. With MBers collecting and flooding the market, it ruins the economy.

I think the only way it should be even allowed is as long as they aren't controlled at the same time. If you want to tab between windows and perform actions separately, I'm still annoyed but at least it will be more inconvenient for them. I still don't like it. I've been harassed by way too many MBers over the past decade to think this is acceptable. I will never think it is acceptable to be targeted by 5 copies of the same character and one shot.

DontTouchMyHoHos

loyheta wrote: »

In my opinion there is zero legitimately good reason to multibox. There is only profit at the cost of more subs (literally paying to profit).

The negatives far outweigh the positives, if there are any. Negatives include fundamentally ruining any pvp you are involved with. If you can target the same character and obliterate them, I don't see how that isn't unfair/p2w. If you can farm resources with multiple accounts, how isn't that p2w? If you can set up your freeholds next to each other and fully collect, process, and craft items without having to worry about others dictating prices, how is that not p2w?

Multiboxing removes the social aspect of the game which is one of the most important parts. With MBers collecting and flooding the market, it ruins the economy.

I think the only way it should be even allowed is as long as they aren't controlled at the same time. If you want to tab between windows and perform actions separately, I'm still annoyed but at least it will be more inconvenient for them. I still don't like it. I've been harassed by way too many MBers over the past decade to think this is acceptable. I will never think it is acceptable to be targeted by 5 copies of the same character and one shot.

What's the point of limiting crafting on a single character if multiboxing is a thing? If they are not allowing multiboxing on a single computer. My only question is, does virtual environment circumvent this? If so than that statement is moot.

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