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Gold Farmers/Botters/Cheaters (Report System)

In AoC will cheaters face partial bans/perma bans? If so will their names will be public? if not, will there be a system in which "scores" a players "reputation " in AoC? - this score scales a players social status in the games community in terms of "reports".

My main concern is when players are reported by other players, its impossible to know if players have been punished for their behavior. Will there be feedback from AoC to the player who reported the other player?
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    Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Public Naming and Shaming is generally a bad idea, resulting in witch hunts that are unnecessary. Why do you need to know the names of people who get punished?
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    KohlKohl Member
    I'd just make it so profanity adds corruption to players. No banning or muting.
    But that's me.
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    BeekeeperBeekeeper Member
    edited July 2020
    eXsZhen wrote: »
    In AoC will cheaters face partial bans/perma bans? If so will their names will be public? if not, will there be a system in which "scores" a players "reputation " in AoC? - this score scales a players social status in the games community in terms of "reports".

    My main concern is when players are reported by other players, its impossible to know if players have been punished for their behavior. Will there be feedback from AoC to the player who reported the other player?

    If you report someone, trust that the report goes somewhere and don't concern yourself with hounding other players for perceived wrong-doings. If it's not something that can be resolved via in-game mechanics, you can report it, but beyond that, it's honestly none of your business.
    Kohl wrote: »
    I'd just make it so profanity adds corruption to players. No banning or muting.
    But that's me.

    I'm definitely against that but it's a hilarious thought for sure.
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    eXsZheneXsZhen Member
    edited July 2020
    Cheaters must shamed, end of story - or at least for a certain a mount of time...then record clears, because this mechanic is EXTREMELY important in further reducing such behavior. In fact, "public shaming" or i like to call this "reputation score" must be mandatory, players always looking for short cuts/scam/cheat/steal etc in a game. This includes paying other players to play on their accounts. For example, the demand for "leveling services" is so high that "professional power levelers" have been developed. These power levelers are paid to play on players accounts, giving astronomical advantage, such as two power levels farming an account 24/7 for months...For example when a player killing mobs in one area for days on end "without sleep" aka two paid powers leveler from different IP address etc and then another real honest players comes along notices the pattern decides to report that player, they should be notified if this was or wasn't the case and if it was the case, the cheating account name and "reputation score" must be publicly published.
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    First of all, if someone breaks TOS, there are obviously punishments attached. But beyond that, if a *PLAYER* gets shamed, that record can never be taken back. It opens the gates for all KINDS of abuse. You can't contain that in a worldwide community. How many hundreds of thousands of strangers do you want to see harass everyone on that list?
    "Reputation score" is a nightmarish concept that goes way beyond what a game should ever enforce.
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    Beekeeper wrote: »
    First of all, if someone breaks TOS, there are obviously punishments attached. But beyond that, if a *PLAYER* gets shamed, that record can never be taken back. It opens the gates for all KINDS of abuse. You can't contain that in a worldwide community. How many hundreds of thousands of strangers do you want to see harass everyone on that list?
    "Reputation score" is a nightmarish concept that goes way beyond what a game should ever enforce.

    Its not a nightmarish concept when its dealing with a non-cheater. If a cheater wants to cheat, they risk such publicity. Also in this day and age gaming is becoming profitable,therefor cheating increases.
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    MosephMoseph Member
    edited July 2020
    Maybe add a way to reduce the duration of the ban or suspension. Like have a pillory in the middle of town that you can put your character in, where every real life hour of being in the pillory reduces the length of your suspension by like a minute.
    Also have baskets of rotten tomatoes around that observers can throw at the players.

    Even just having baskets of tomatoes sitting around might inspire a La Tomatina type event!
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    I had an idea for a novel form of 'punishment' for those the run macros/bots/etc. Any player caught doing that should not be allowed to trade any items they have for days X. X would depend on severity and number of times caught and such
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    NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I feel sorry for the silver farmers to be honest. they spend days out in the sun only to be outclassed buy the gold farmer. what a hard life :'(
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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    Then punishment and detection should be handled with more care, not outsourced for the community to take care of. Imagine you stole a car, and the police put letters all around the city to shame you. For the rest of your life, people will harass you over it, not caring that you were already adequately punished, that you were falsely prosecuted, that you were rehabilitated.

    Imagine some forum staff misspells the name. "eXsZhen used wallhacks" the post says, except it wasn't you, it was "eYsZhen". Whoops, now it's on you for as long as the internet exists.
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    Moseph wrote: »
    Maybe add a way to reduce the duration of the ban or suspension. Like have a pillory in the middle of town that you can put your character in, where every real life hour of being in the pillory reduces the length of your suspension by like a minute.
    Also have baskets of rotten tomatoes around that observers can throw at the players.

    Even just having baskets of tomatoes sitting around might inspire a La Tomatina type event!

    Of course, anything to publicly shame the cheaters. Many gamers do cheat.. and its becoming a taboo to claim someone is. Therefore, we MUST place a "reputation score" of some sort, because cheating in general is getting OUT OF CONTROL no matter how "advanced" the anti-hack software is...
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    MosephMoseph Member
    @Nagash Every time i see your signature it looks like it's rubbing it's belly until i look closer.
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    NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Moseph wrote: »
    @Nagash Every time i see your signature it looks like it's rubbing it's belly until i look closer.

    Well the cat is in my ribs ^^
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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    Beekeeper wrote: »
    Then punishment and detection should be handled with more care, not outsourced for the community to take care of. Imagine you stole a car, and the police put letters all around the city to shame you. For the rest of your life, people will harass you over it, not caring that you were already adequately punished, that you were falsely prosecuted, that you were rehabilitated.

    Imagine some forum staff misspells the name. "eXsZhen used wallhacks" the post says, except it wasn't you, it was "eYsZhen". Whoops, now it's on you for as long as the internet exists.

    Knowing my name will be forever tied down to as a "car thief" will most likely deter me from stealing it in the first place.

    Also, since you used a real life example... lets look at drunk drivers and when they are caught. After court if found guilty, the person has DUI on their record for 10 years then its wiped off their record..thus affecting their life... But lets focus on the game and not get distracted/ off topic please...
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    eXsZheneXsZhen Member
    edited July 2020
    Nagash wrote: »
    I feel sorry for the silver farmers to be honest. they spend days out in the sun only to be outclassed buy the gold farmer. what a hard life :'(

    I talked/interviewed several Gold farmers,power levelers/farmers - mostly from the Philippines, they claimed its a booming industry. Its better pay than a general low end job there. Also majority of these farmers are full time employed through a company or self employed.

    I am not making this up, do your own investigations, its all out there.
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    NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    eXsZhen wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    I feel sorry for the silver farmers to be honest. they spend days out in the sun only to be outclassed buy the gold farmer. what a hard life :'(

    I talked/interviewed several Gold farmers,power levelers/farmers - mostly from the Philippines, they claimed its a booming industry. Its better pay than a general low end job there. Also majority of these farmers are full time employed through a company or self employed.

    I am not making this up, do your own investigations, its all out there.

    I was making a joke but I can believe that's its a lucrative business
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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    eXsZheneXsZhen Member
    edited July 2020
    Nagash wrote: »
    eXsZhen wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    I feel sorry for the silver farmers to be honest. they spend days out in the sun only to be outclassed buy the gold farmer. what a hard life :'(

    I talked/interviewed several Gold farmers,power levelers/farmers - mostly from the Philippines, they claimed its a booming industry. Its better pay than a general low end job there. Also majority of these farmers are full time employed through a company or self employed.

    I am not making this up, do your own investigations, its all out there.

    I was making a joke but I can believe that's its a lucrative business

    Majority of the farmers are kids, aging low as 10 year olds to 30's. I have seen companies group photos and work areas, which was roughly 20 fully highly custom pc builds 1,500 usd with 50cent plastic chairs.

    If a player highers these farmers, they must be made public if caught. Unless if its LEGAL, then just close this topic...
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2020
    eXsZhen wrote: »
    Majority of the farmers are kids, aging low as 10 year olds to 30's. I have seen companies group photos and work areas, which was roughly 20 fully highly custom pc builds 1,500 usd with 50cent plastic chairs.

    If a player highers these farmers, they must be made public if caught. Unless if its LEGAL, then just close this topic...

    I do not like the suggestion at all. In OSRS all Venezuelans were hunted down and killed in game across multiple servers because Venezuelans were supplementing their meagre existence with Bots and as Gold Sellers. This public shaming then caused ALL Venezuelans to be targeted irrespective of whether they were botting or Gold Selling, simply playing the game and being Venezuelan got you constantly killed.

    Edit: There is a Corruption System in Ashes, but, I still think Public Name and Shames will bring nothing but toxicity.
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    Neurath wrote: »
    eXsZhen wrote: »
    Majority of the farmers are kids, aging low as 10 year olds to 30's. I have seen companies group photos and work areas, which was roughly 20 fully highly custom pc builds 1,500 usd with 50cent plastic chairs.

    If a player highers these farmers, they must be made public if caught. Unless if its LEGAL, then just close this topic...

    I do not like the suggestion at all. In OSRS all Venezuelans were hunted down and killed in game across multiple servers because Venezuelans were supplementing their meagre existence with Bots and as Gold Sellers. This public shaming then caused ALL Venezuelans to be targeted irrespective of whether they were botting or Gold Selling, simply playing the game and being Venezuelan got you constantly killed.

    Edit: There is a Corruption System in Ashes, but, I still think Public Name and Shames will bring nothing but toxicity.

    Thank you for pointing this out.. Thats how it should be and the purpose behind the "reputation system" leave the community to decide. Now I will ignore few things you mentioned ........."This public shaming then caused ALL Venezuelans to be targeted irrespective of whether they were botting or Gold Selling, simply playing the game and being Venezuelan got you constantly killed" .....now that is somerhing different I'm talking about. That system is based on the "corruption system" or the "pvp" aspect of the game which this post is NOT about... but I do see your point. You mean the individual will be targeted and attacked in some way shape or form... what's the problem with that? If you cheat and steal you think there shouldn't be any social consequences, only the horrifying "report" button will put them in their place? Give.me.a.break.

    I will say this...in real life everyone has a credit score. This score is important for multiple reasons...if you want to buy a house or a car better have a good credit score. If you have bed credit, have no fear it's possible to bring it up... the same goes for "reputation score" If a player wants to be a mayor of the town but is known to be a botter and a cheater, do you think they qualify to lead the town? Do you think that individual will also help other people to be just like him? Is this the type of community you wish to prolong from game to game? The same old "privacy for cheaters" slap on the wrist, are you kidding me? You cheat, you get smacked with what you did, period.
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    Cold 0ne FTBCold 0ne FTB Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nagash wrote: »
    Moseph wrote: »
    @Nagash Every time i see your signature it looks like it's rubbing it's belly until i look closer.

    Well the cat is in my ribs ^^

    That's a cat?! Man, I have been trying to figure that signature out for a while now.
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    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    My Credit Score is not public information. My charities are not public information. My Financial Situation is not public information.

    I do not want Jealous Little Pricks having the ability to affect my characters reputation. Report functions can be abused and there is no way to stop it once it starts.

    A personal Reputation will be built through actions and interactions, not because someone clicks a report button.

    It is perfectly acceptable for players to report other players and GMs to look into the matter. It is not acceptable to have public name and shames. This isn't Ancient Greece where we get to vote on whether someone should be banished. It's a social networking game with social interactions.

    I do not think Naming and Shaming is very social, even if at times one must report someone else (Have done it to some posters on these forums myself) but, those who were dealt with were not named and shamed, they were dealt with through discretion. Discretion is the better part of valour.
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    Cold 0ne FTBCold 0ne FTB Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't know what game you come from and I am not going to presume to know but we have a trend in ESO were players with less experience will accuse veteran players of "cheating". Now most calculations in ESO are done server-side, there exists GCD that cannot be surpassed and there can be quite a bit of lag. Now I am not saying that there hasn't been people have cheated in the pass with ESO, there are instances where people go through walls or fly above keeps but when it comes to rotations and killing people there are no cheats. This comes from a hardcore pvper that has pvped in this game for years. I cannot help but wonder how such a reputation system could get abused with these less skilled players had access to this. Further what is stopping people from getting salty and ruining somebody's reputation.

    Now I don't like cheating, I don't support it but if it happens I hope that it is a matter of submitting ticket with a screenshot/video and then either a suspension or a ban. In a game where you have to invest upwards of 200-300 hrs just to get to level cap, this will be more than enough motivation to not cheat. If it becomes a more wide pressing issue, the Devs just need to invest more security into the system.
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    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
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    eXsZheneXsZhen Member
    edited July 2020
    Neurath wrote: »
    My Credit Score is not public information. My charities are not public information. My Financial Situation is not public information.

    I do not want Jealous Little Pricks having the ability to affect my characters reputation. Report functions can be abused and there is no way to stop it once it starts.

    A personal Reputation will be built through actions and interactions, not because someone clicks a report button.

    It is perfectly acceptable for players to report other players and GMs to look into the matter. It is not acceptable to have public name and shames. This isn't Ancient Greece where we get to vote on whether someone should be banished. It's a social networking game with social interactions.

    I do not think Naming and Shaming is very social, even if at times one must report someone else (Have done it to some posters on these forums myself) but, those who were dealt with were not named and shamed, they were dealt with through discretion. Discretion is the better part of valour.

    Thats perfect! You hit the spot where its most critical for people to understand what I'm suggesting. I'll explain it like this...

    If a player was "found" to cheat (not by the number of times a player was reported by other players through the report button) by the game developers who investigated through AoC data logs, that is only when a players "reputation score" is affected. So let's say before the violation the player has 100 score, after the violation -5, which will make the repuation score of 95. When a player is looked up the score will show up for others to see, but the details of what is it I'm not too concerned out..... because honestly I don't care. If a player has a reputation score of 50 out of 100 then I do care because that player continues to violate the games rules. Also that player shouldn't have access to certain aspects of the game. Again I personally don't care about the specific violations made to the public, it should be recorded privately, but I do care about the game developers punishing botters, cheaters and hackers ALSO such a system will help provide feedback to the community that game developers are doing their job.

    I have seen so many posts on forums such as.... 12000 players have been banned for botting, out of those players 6000 were speed hackers, 3000 gold farmers, and 3000 other rule breaking violations... do you really know for sure if those numbers are REAL?? Placing a repuation system will provide ACTIVE FEED BACK.

    Also reputation system will PREVENT ACCOUNT SELLING.
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    If you don't think you can trust the devs of the game with appropriately punishing the cheaters, why do you trust them to handle this kind of Orwellian social score system? That's as stupid as people who want dps meters to "double check the balancing of the classes bc the devs can't be taken at face value".

    When a person cheats, they are banned. That's it. Or suspended, because it wasn't deemed serious enough for a ban. You don't need the wider public to look into the gm files. They ban cheaters. If you think a cheater is slipping through, report the cheater. Apply for a gm position and hunt down cheaters. But don't ever think mob rule has any merit.
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    Beekeeper wrote: »
    If you don't think you can trust the devs of the game with appropriately punishing the cheaters, why do you trust them to handle this kind of Orwellian social score system? That's as stupid as people who want dps meters to "double check the balancing of the classes bc the devs can't be taken at face value".

    When a person cheats, they are banned. That's it. Or suspended, because it wasn't deemed serious enough for a ban. You don't need the wider public to look into the gm files. They ban cheaters. If you think a cheater is slipping through, report the cheater. Apply for a gm position and hunt down cheaters. But don't ever think mob rule has any merit.

    I fully, truly, completely understand your concerns.....However if you wish to attack me instead of helping me to better refine my idea or to improve the idea then I must conclude you are one of many cheaters who are currently planning on transferring the gold farming/cheating/botting community over to Ashes of Creation. Your just another business man making sure nothing will stand in the way. I get trust me, its your way of living and everyone needs to eat. But throwing a trantrom isn't helping, its just waisting time.

    Ask your self, when you play MMO what do you look for?
    1. Quality of combat
    2. Graphics
    3. Pay 2 Win

    There's another thing but no one wants to talk about and that's cheaters.

    4. Active Ban List with player Repuation Score

    I personally will be very surprised if my idea will be implemented even slitly...because cheaters want to cheat and game developers want money. Applying an active ban list with names daily or even weekly isn't good for business BUT we can't talk about that because... well because we just don't talk about it... lmaooo
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    eXsZheneXsZhen Member
    edited July 2020
    I don't know what game you come from and I am not going to presume to know but we have a trend in ESO were players with less experience will accuse veteran players of "cheating". Now most calculations in ESO are done server-side, there exists GCD that cannot be surpassed and there can be quite a bit of lag. Now I am not saying that there hasn't been people have cheated in the pass with ESO, there are instances where people go through walls or fly above keeps but when it comes to rotations and killing people there are no cheats. This comes from a hardcore pvper that has pvped in this game for years. I cannot help but wonder how such a reputation system could get abused with these less skilled players had access to this. Further what is stopping people from getting salty and ruining somebody's reputation.

    Now I don't like cheating, I don't support it but if it happens I hope that it is a matter of submitting ticket with a screenshot/video and then either a suspension or a ban. In a game where you have to invest upwards of 200-300 hrs just to get to level cap, this will be more than enough motivation to not cheat. If it becomes a more wide pressing issue, the Devs just need to invest more security into the system.

    I did mention this concern from another post... Devs will look into suspected account data logs. Just because a pro player who was reported by a 100 noob army will NOT affect the reputation score, only when the devs did find it so or the auto detections system then the "repuation score" will be affected.
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    GodsThesisGodsThesis Member
    edited July 2020
    Beekeeper wrote: »

    There's another thing but no one wants to talk about and that's cheaters.

    But have you seen the fifty multibox threads?
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    Maybe I can make my objection clearer with a specific example.

    - Let's say I cheat. I exploit some system, shimmy myself through a hole in the terrain, I get all the gold, whatever else. I make some kind of ramshackle business out of it.

    - Next step, I get caught. A player or a gm catches me cheating.

    - Final step, my account is banned. I no longer have my account. All the effort and money I invested is gone, the gold is gone that I cheated. It's gone, forever.

    Where exactly would you attach your social score? To an account that no longer exists? To the real person's name and billing info? Where would it ever actually connect if the cheater in question makes a new account?

    And if it's not a bannable offence, I get a slap on the wrist or suspension for being a naughty player who said a bad word or something, how does that deserve to have its own list of unmentionables?
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    AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2020
    eXsZhen wrote: »
    Cheaters must shamed, end of story - or at least for a certain a mount of time...then record clears, because this mechanic is EXTREMELY important in further reducing such behavior. In fact, "public shaming" or i like to call this "reputation score" must be mandatory, players always looking for short cuts/scam/cheat/steal etc in a game. This includes paying other players to play on their accounts. For example, the demand for "leveling services" is so high that "professional power levelers" have been developed. These power levelers are paid to play on players accounts, giving astronomical advantage, such as two power levels farming an account 24/7 for months...For example when a player killing mobs in one area for days on end "without sleep" aka two paid powers leveler from different IP address etc and then another real honest players comes along notices the pattern decides to report that player, they should be notified if this was or wasn't the case and if it was the case, the cheating account name and "reputation score" must be publicly published.

    And the 1st time you publicly name someone you will likely be banned as games hate being sued. There are resasons and laws why you don't go around publicly accusing people of stuff. Most games are very clear about publicly naming people being one of the fastest ways to get yourself banned.
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    Beekeeper wrote: »
    Maybe I can make my objection clearer with a specific example.

    - Let's say I cheat. I exploit some system, shimmy myself through a hole in the terrain, I get all the gold, whatever else. I make some kind of ramshackle business out of it.

    - Next step, I get caught. A player or a gm catches me cheating.

    - Final step, my account is banned. I no longer have my account. All the effort and money I invested is gone, the gold is gone that I cheated. It's gone, forever.

    Where exactly would you attach your social score? To an account that no longer exists? To the real person's name and billing info? Where would it ever actually connect if the cheater in question makes a new account?

    And if it's not a bannable offence, I get a slap on the wrist or suspension for being a naughty player who said a bad word or something, how does that deserve to have its own list of unmentionables?

    Great question! OK so first, your social media account, personal details, email etc isn't shared under banned account list publicly, only your in-game characters name will be under the list of banned accounts. If not banned "reputation score" will be affected. Second the GM will determine how sever the punishment will be aka slap on the wrist for the "bad words" and the severity will affect the reputation score. So for example I would get a deduction of -.5, half a point for cusing like a sailor at everyone I saw the entire week 7 days straight.The repuation score would be 99.5, again the GM will determine this but the general public will report. Then let's say you knew the cusing sailor had repuation score of 100 last week now you look it up its 99.50, you have active feedback the report system is working... unlike previous times in games ZERO notices of any kind.
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