Giving PVP a Skill Gap

Lazyactor

I dont think anyone should have an advantage over someone else because of the very first thing they did in the MMO. Choose a class to play. What an un fun anti competitiveness mindset would that make. How boring would it be to know I can win a fight against that dude as long as I am semi competent at my own class because it counters him....The system should never be what determines if you win or lose. That should be decided by you and your opponents.

That being said builds that sacrifice some advantages to perform well for a purpose seem fine to me. Like being a melee stacking every mobility debuff and gap closer they can find so they can pin mages and other ranged characters down is fine. A ranged character stacking every mobility buff and movement skill they can find to prevent such a scenario is fine. But in no way should a fight be decided because tank beats rogue or other such nonsense.

Every class should be able to build in such a way as to give themselves advantages over other archetypes but not so much that its basically a game of rock paper scissors. Who in their right minds would want a contests decided by luck. Boring as hell.

Cold 0ne FTB

Arsan wrote: »

I know this game is going to have rock paper scissors pvp. On top of that, stuns are going to have diminishing returns, and with there being a low number of skills, if the game wants to have genuine competitive PVP, there has to be some kind of mechanic that separates skilled players from unskilled players, allowing them to win regardless of whatever rock paper scissors effect is in play.

Some games utilize animation cancelling to achieve this.(mostly Asian MMOs, like Black Desert Online, Blade and soul.)

Blade & Soul - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz2bFMqeg6Q @0:14

Black Desert Online - https://youtu.be/R179Zu_9vNM?t=131 @2:11

This mechanic basically works when a few skills can be cancelled into each other, but requires an extremely strict, almost frame perfect rythm to not break the chain and end it almost completely. The skill gap came from players with high APM being able to master the rythm and perform it faster and faster to fit as much damage into a stun as possible.

There should never be a moment where a worse skilled player kills a better skilled player when they both play to the best of their ability simply because one guy plays a class.

With this game including 1v1 arena's and planning on having a ranking system based on it. What are you planning in order to ensure that skilled players are allowed to strive besides just choosing the class that has the least counters and praying you down queue into one of those counters?

I agree with OP skill should be a big part of this game. I like the animation canceling of ESO and BDO. Would this necessarily work for AoC, maybe not but there are other ways to in corporate a greater level of skill to game play. They way combos work or the way CCs work could lead to a similar skill ceiling.

Jexz

I'm not sure i'm speculating but the rock paper scissors has the potential to be from itemization. Via physical and elemental damages. It's balanced XvX and you will be able to see at a glance what defenses the enemy has geared themselves for. So an aspect of the skill factor will be target acquisition , positioning and pealing for team mates.

BDO has a terribly broken ani-cancel system. The game is balanced around 60 fps. Yet you can unlock your frames and make your warrior teleport around like a sorc. Other classes like sorc and ninja take substantially less damage just by unlocking their frames and spamming I frames. Unlocking frames is P2W there is no skill factor involved just a good computer. Look at a game like for honor. There are no ani-cancels in puts are rather simple yet it has a great skill gap. Through reads reactions and positioning. They combat zerg fighting through a revenge system. Forcing team co-ordination even on a 1vX

Beateerr

First i wanna say hi to all of you, it's my first post in here.

I'm a huge PvP fan in MMOs and especially the open world PvP. I hate arenas, 1v1 ones the most but i respect that mode too. I'll be talking all of this as for open world PvP. The skill gap should of course exist and there will be a skill gap that is naturally in the game especially considering there are 64 playable combinations of classes so every build will have it's own advantages and flaws against some other builds/class combinations. Getting the information about ur enemy, positioning, managing your skills.. Those are all extremely important things in PvP. So 1st thing you should do is learn as many class abilities (from all class combinations).The 1st thing you need to do before fightng someone is get some basic info (lvl of ur enemy, gear, weapon and their basic skills from primary class) so you know how to approach that fight. Steven also talked a bit about augmenting ur skills or smthin like that and that will play a big role too. You'll have to choose those wisely, depending on what you wanna do in game (open world ganking/PvE/raids etc.) and choosing good ones is also "skill". And also those augments can make your skills coordinate with each other in a way so you actually need to use your skills in appropriate order (which means you need to time them right too) for a max dps output.

P.S: Sorry for my bad English, it's not my native language

CaptnChuck

In the wiki, its clearly mentioned that there will be NO animation cancelling. I personally love this, as I want combat to be combo-based, and not based on who can cancel animations the best. GW2 is a great example of this.

Animation cancelling based combat was the main reason I disliked ESO.

Songcaller

CaptnChuck wrote: »

In the wiki, its clearly mentioned that there will be NO animation cancelling. I personally love this as I want combat to be combo-based, and not based on who can cancel animations the best. GW2 is a great example of this.

Animation cancelling based combat was the main reason I disliked ESO.

Not just ESO, many MMOs have suffered with Combo Skipping (Animation Cancelling). I still call it combo skipping because of Age of Conan and the combo system.

CaptnChuck

Neurath wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

In the wiki, its clearly mentioned that there will be NO animation cancelling. I personally love this as I want combat to be combo-based, and not based on who can cancel animations the best. GW2 is a great example of this.

Animation cancelling based combat was the main reason I disliked ESO.

Not just ESO, many MMOs have suffered with Combo Skipping (Animation Cancelling). I still call it combo skipping because of Age of Conan and the combo system.

Yea but I was only alive for ESO lol.

Songcaller

Have no fear, Ashes culminates many older iterations, after Ashes you'll be familiar with systems from UO, AA, L2, SWG...the list could probably grow

Solonthebandit

I think having head damage apply increased critical hit percentages on action skills is a very clear example of AoC giving skill players a clear path to gain an edge. I like that they are mindful of how much of an edge that gives to more skilled players and will be designing with somewhat of a balance in mind between tab targeting and skill shot combat.

I believe they have also stated that 1v1 arena's might have class specific ladders. I dont think a high priest (cleric/cleric) should have any chance against an equally skilled weapon master (fighter/fighter).

Team based arenas will likely develop meta's like virtually every competitive game does. meta's go hand in hand with competitive pvp. If someone doesn't like that reality they shouldn't pursue competitive pvp in my opinion.

Hillefuego

Animation cancelling falls under the category of mechanical skill (increasing APM) and although I do really like it in BDO and BnS, I don't think its necessary for creating a skill gap (which is the original point of this discussion). However, I do think that there should be enough freedom in using skills so that you can let the player create that gap. For example I am not a fan of skills that have animations that lock you in place (besides casting) because it takes away that freedom.

I think burst damage and hard CC options usually clearly show the skill gap between players (WoW) and generally makes it more enjoyable to watch. I also prefer this combat style over GW2 where it is buff/debuff oriented and longer fights. A skill gap will be inevitable but I don't think it should be created by upping mechanical skill needed.

BlackBrony

Animation cancelling is depending on Ping, which favors people with less latency.
Gap should be about what skills you use and when you decide to use them.
Steven has said several times that some kills that do heavy damage will lock you in place (Risk vs Reward).

Skill is about assessing the situation, knowing when to blow your cooldowns.
At least it shouldn't be around being able to press 1000 buttons in 10 seconds, that's why there are other games like FPS and Mobas

Arsan

Animation canceling is somewhat dependent on ping, yes. But so is every other aspect of the game. Bad 2 mbps connections are a thing of the past, as well as shitty 500 dollar pc builds. The servers are locally based, most players actually playing their area will probably have 90 ping at most.

Warhog53

Skill gap is ok. Gap due to weaving around game mechanics that you have to learn from a YouTube video is not. That is how you get people extremely frustrated, labeling you a hacker, while you reply "Haha git gud bro."

NelsonRebel

The problem with Ani cancelling is that it favors melee by far, just because of the ease of animations on physical weapons

And also because ani canceling creates a toxic atmosphere because people cant see what the hell killed them.


People should have a REAL chance to act and counter instead of being killed by invisible abilities that only show up on death screens later.

Now if you had ani cancelling only a LITTLE of the animation, we could talk. But outright cancellations NO. Not even going to entertain a conversation because it's obviously broken

Arsan

To clarify, animation cancelling doesn't remove the animation, only lets you cut it off with another input, a good example is a game that allows you to jump in a direction and then change direction mid jump with a dash, it also requires you to input all the commands in order for it to work. @nelsonrebel

@Warhog53 as for your comment, YouTube videos will always be made, but one of the things that comes with an active community is an active information web, especially if the game has open world proximity voice chat. I'm extremely excited for that particular feature.

PlagueMonk

I'm sorry but no. You say you aren't asking for animation canceling BUT you really are (or something very much like it that basically gives players with better twitch skills the win). You want an exploit (look up the word, yes it is).

I've seen BS like this in other games. Instead of becoming actually better at the game, players become good at exploiting poor game mechanics. Example of this was DAoC where duelers would exploit the fact that there were no collision boxes and literally run through you, turn and hit you. Total crap.

If you can't beat your opponent because you can dodge faster, aim more accurately or use your class skills more effectively then forget it......imho

Arsan

@PlagueMonk This is not asking for exploits, it's asking for example for a couple of skills to have no cooldown if they hit a stunned player, also that they cancel into each other. So in the instance you outplay somebody and stun them after they've blown their escape, a skilled player has the ability with massive dpm and skill requirement, to deal a lot of damage.

Arsan

Not to mention that a stun would be like 2 seconds at most probably, and multiple stuns will have diminishing returns, so you'd really have to perfect your rhythm and dpm to make it effective, messing up an input would probably make it deal less damage than a regular option.

NelsonRebel

not having a cooldown is ok

I just do not want invisible attacks casted that cant be seen until the death recap.


As long as the attack is visible without a way to cancel the visuals of it, Im down with no cooldowns except for ultimate skills

Arsan

Yeah of course, I mean with insanely fast dpm they won't be invisible but definitely a blur. It'd also just be like two or three skills with some auto attacks weaved into that. So for example in BDO on kung fu master you have to rhythmically input 3 r f 3 r f 3 r f incredibly fast, and messing up the rhythm basically completely ends it all because there's only a couple of frames where you can cancel them into each other. @nelsonrebel

NelsonRebel

So long as the attack has a visual associated with an animation with a corresponding resource cost (similar to eso) I dont see a issue with that specific scenario

The part where eso screwed it up is you could definitely cancel animations to almost nothing but the damage applied and the visuals showed after the damage hits. The damage should always register only with a corresponding animation has always been my issue

Luthienstorm

Arsan wrote: »

Communication is definitely key, but someone who fully understands the combat system should always come out on top of three people pressing 1, 2, 3, over and over.

To answer that question. The answer is no, you're wrong. In war, life, or gaming there are five major factors.
1. Vision (The answer to how do you enjoy the game and how can you meet your objective, this includes computer, internet, a gaming mouse with more buttons, and more in the case of gaming) Life isn't fair and someone thinking they are just better because they won a duel is a narrow point of view.
2. Mission ( The important goals to achieve your objective) Also, some pvp will be objective base
3. Strategy (Resources, alliances, gear, denial of resources, archetypes, ect...)
4. Tactics (What abilities, distance, passives, movements, synergy, and allies you'll use for victory)
5. Execution (Your ability to react, combo abilities. time investment, and the perception others have of you as a community member. If you plan to run a guild you may need to be a people person that other gravitate to. Execution is important)

This is why the billionaire can hire the body guards because he has vision. I challenge you to think bigger.

The only consideration you are considering is execution. Is a piano better who writes the music better than the dancer who dances? No. They're just better at different things.

There will always be a skill gap in vision, mission, strategy, tactics, and execution. It sounds like you want the developers to cater towards one part.

Demonhunter1

It's going to be interesting to see among 64 classes, how many are going to be eliminated due to the sheer fact that most people are going to gravitate towards maximizing either (tank, dps, healz) or hybrid if it's viable.

It's been already stated that within the 64 classes, you will keep your general role as a tank, dps or healz. So, this might create some classes not to be viable when it comes to combat. Maybe that's why some classes have utility skills so it can be attractive to play it.

When people start posting their builds, lots of classes won't make the cut when it comes to combat. For example, a tank and a rogue which makes it a Nightshield, will it be more DPS or Tank? Even though it's primary role is a tank? Perhaps it's somewhere in the middle? Like average tank and dps, so it's combat performance will be just ok. Compare to say a tank and a cleric which makes it a Paladin, could be more tanky then a Nightshield?

If a Nightshield can't beat the Paladin in 1vs1 which it's been already stated that it could be the case since some classes will just do poorly vs others. Then why choose a Nightshield in group combat either? What would it add to the game? The only thing that comes to mind is resource management or buff, maybe the Nightshield can last longer within a group setting since he generates resources (e.g stamina,magicka) much faster then a Paladin?

Warhog53

valerian wrote: »

It's going to be interesting to see among 64 classes, how many are going to be eliminated due to the sheer fact that most people are going to gravitate towards maximizing either (tank, dps, healz) or hybrid if it's viable.

It's been already stated that within the 64 classes, you will keep your general role as a tank, dps or healz. So, this might create some classes not to be viable when it comes to combat. Maybe that's why some classes have utility skills so it can be attractive to play it.

When people start posting their builds, lots of classes won't make the cut when it comes to combat. For example, a tank and a rogue which makes it a Nightshield, will it be more DPS or Tank? Even though it's primary role is a tank? Perhaps it's somewhere in the middle? Like average tank and dps, so it's combat performance will be just ok. Compare to say a tank and a cleric which makes it a Paladin, could be more tanky then a Nightshield?

If a Nightshield can't beat the Paladin in 1vs1 which it's been already stated that it could be the case since some classes will just do poorly vs others. Then why choose a Nightshield in group combat either? What would it add to the game? The only thing that comes to mind is resource management or buff, maybe the Nightshield can last longer within a group setting since he generates resources (e.g stamina,magicka) much faster then a Paladin?

I see your point here, but I think the objective of Ashes is to diversify beyond the traditional norm. We have 8 person groups, why sit around and wait for 6 "optimal" dps when you can grab the lfg nightshield and roll as dps off tank?

Secondly, while you may not be the "optimal" choice for the pve dungeon or raid run, you may be the primary choice for the upcoming node siege.

This is my inference based on what I have seen of the game so far. Hopefully it holds true

Arsan

valerian wrote: »

It's going to be interesting to see among 64 classes, how many are going to be eliminated due to the sheer fact that most people are going to gravitate towards maximizing either (tank, dps, healz) or hybrid if it's viable.

It's been already stated that within the 64 classes, you will keep your general role as a tank, dps or healz. So, this might create some classes not to be viable when it comes to combat. Maybe that's why some classes have utility skills so it can be attractive to play it.

When people start posting their builds, lots of classes won't make the cut when it comes to combat. For example, a tank and a rogue which makes it a Nightshield, will it be more DPS or Tank? Even though it's primary role is a tank? Perhaps it's somewhere in the middle? Like average tank and dps, so it's combat performance will be just ok. Compare to say a tank and a cleric which makes it a Paladin, could be more tanky then a Nightshield?

If a Nightshield can't beat the Paladin in 1vs1 which it's been already stated that it could be the case since some classes will just do poorly vs others. Then why choose a Nightshield in group combat either? What would it add to the game? The only thing that comes to mind is resource management or buff, maybe the Nightshield can last longer within a group setting since he generates resources (e.g stamina,magicka) much faster then a Paladin?

I talked about this a bit in the discord, how if the game is solely based around group pvp, and no balancing is done by a 1v1 aspect, pvp will not be trinity based, it will be holy trinity based. Where there will only be a composition of meta classes that when combined have the least amount of counters. I hope that decision is changed to be based on 1v1 balance instead since they made it pretty clear by disallowing dps meters they wanted to avoid a toxic meta grabbey community.

Arsan

Oh also Steven if you read this. PLEASE I'M BEGGING YOU. Don't put in a stat that improves your resistance to a stun, allowing you to escape from it quicker. If it's 1 second long Please just have it be 1 second long unless they use like a 1 time 30 seconds CD skill to escape it. I'm begging you that one single stat will completely destroy pvp.

Arsan

Except for the multiple stun diminishing return thing.

Luthienstorm

valerian wrote: »

It's going to be interesting to see among 64 classes, how many are going to be eliminated due to the sheer fact that most people are going to gravitate towards maximizing either (tank, dps, healz) or hybrid if it's viable.

It's been already stated that within the 64 classes, you will keep your general role as a tank, dps or healz. So, this might create some classes not to be viable when it comes to combat. Maybe that's why some classes have utility skills so it can be attractive to play it.

When people start posting their builds, lots of classes won't make the cut when it comes to combat. For example, a tank and a rogue which makes it a Nightshield, will it be more DPS or Tank? Even though it's primary role is a tank? Perhaps it's somewhere in the middle? Like average tank and dps, so it's combat performance will be just ok. Compare to say a tank and a cleric which makes it a Paladin, could be more tanky then a Nightshield?

If a Nightshield can't beat the Paladin in 1vs1 which it's been already stated that it could be the case since some classes will just do poorly vs others. Then why choose a Nightshield in group combat either? What would it add to the game? The only thing that comes to mind is resource management or buff, maybe the Nightshield can last longer within a group setting since he generates resources (e.g stamina,magicka) much faster then a Paladin?

I'm afraid you are extremely oversimplifying the difficulty in how to measure maximizing your role. There is solo play, a few, several, and many. Support classes are more valued in bigger groups. The bigger the group the more one can specialize. Hybrid classes do very well in solo play because of their versatility.

When people start posting their builds a lot of classes won't make the cut? Nonsense, this is a brand new game with 64 combinations. It takes years of gameplay to understand gear/archetype/talent/buffs/movement/execution maximization. What you are going to see and hear is the "Meta". What a few people at the top "thought" was the best and then with time others figured out it just wasn't true. People do this so they don't have to take the rigorous undertaking of improving their skills, trying new builds, item combinations, and changing their computer setup to make them faster. It's actually a lot of work.

Rogue/tank vs Cleric/tank: Lets assume for a moment you're right . The Cleric/tank has an advantage (not always beats) against the Nightshield tank. Then why choose the Nightshield tank? The Nightshield tank will have advantages against classes the cleric tank doesn't have. Clerics are known for healing and tanks are known for taking damage or mitigating by pulling threat, or pulling mobs to the tank. Rogues are known for dealing damage. So a rogue would have an advantage against a ranger/mage character. It's give and take. At least that's the idea of paper/rock/scissors. Plus the nightshield might be better at mitigating damage so it requires less healing so your can stack your dps higher and require less healing. There are hundreds of reasons I could imagine choosing a Nightshield over a cleric/tank. Stealth is a very powerful mechanic and I wouldn't underestimate it. For instance in world of warcraft not bringing a druid to capture the flag is like hamstringing yourself. In Classic World of Warcraft druids are the best flag runners in the warsong gluch battleground. Great in PvE and ok in solo PvP. However, there is a very high skill cap to make them ok in grp pvp. Great leveling. No class will be the best in all areas. The idea is every class has its season.

The game isn't coming out in a few years and you're concerned that after people "figure out" the game which will take several years about classes not being fair or balanced? I wouldn't worry about it so much.

Jexz

Arsan wrote: »

Yeah of course, I mean with insanely fast dpm they won't be invisible but definitely a blur. It'd also just be like two or three skills with some auto attacks weaved into that. So for example in BDO on kung fu master you have to rhythmically input 3 r f 3 r f 3 r f incredibly fast, and messing up the rhythm basically completely ends it all because there's only a couple of frames where you can cancel them into each other. @nelsonrebel

BDO is the best example of why they should not use animation cancels. Not to say animation cancels can not be done right. BDO does not do it right ( I still enjoy BDO combat but it is so broken its not even funny). Your statement of they won't be invisible but defiantly a blur is false in this case. Because BDO is Client side if you unlock your frame rate you can cancel earlier and skip even more frames while doing more damage. Warrior is the easiest class to view this. You can visually see the difference of a warrior who has frames locked at 60fps vs one who has 250+fps the 250fps warrior appears to teleport around while the 60fps warrior dashes around. As well if you compare the damage between the two the 250fps warrior does significantly more damage in the same combo chain.

This is why some ninjas and sorcs seem so OP and able to Iframe all damage and others you have no problems catching in a CC.

edit: I think we are talking about different BDO's
also not even sure why I bothered its already been stated no animation cancels

Arsan

@Jexz Oh, my incredibly huge mistake, I mean't Blade & Soul, Not BDO. I know bdo has massive issues with people just macroing the animation cancel stuff.