Giving PVP a Skill Gap

Arsan

I know this game is going to have rock paper scissors pvp. On top of that, stuns are going to have diminishing returns, and with there being a low number of skills, if the game wants to have genuine competitive PVP, there has to be some kind of mechanic that separates skilled players from unskilled players, allowing them to win regardless of whatever rock paper scissors effect is in play.

Some games utilize animation cancelling to achieve this.(mostly Asian MMOs, like Black Desert Online, Blade and soul.)

Blade & Soul - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz2bFMqeg6Q @0:14

Black Desert Online - https://youtu.be/R179Zu_9vNM?t=131 @2:11

This mechanic basically works when a few skills can be cancelled into each other, but requires an extremely strict, almost frame perfect rythm to not break the chain and end it almost completely. The skill gap came from players with high APM being able to master the rythm and perform it faster and faster to fit as much damage into a stun as possible.

There should never be a moment where a worse skilled player kills a better skilled player when they both play to the best of their ability simply because one guy plays a class.

With this game including 1v1 arena's and planning on having a ranking system based on it. What are you planning in order to ensure that skilled players are allowed to strive besides just choosing the class that has the least counters and praying you down queue into one of those counters?

wArchAngel

as someone who plays mmos since 2003, i am gonna go with a strict no. Played all kinds of games, and gotta say that the most cancer i've ever had with a skill system was in aion, where everything was tied strictly around animation canceling, jump casting, jump shoting, weaving animations, queueing animanitions... The funny thing is that most of those were considered bugs in early development, but were just left as-is since they were too complex to deal with apparently.
Since Aion i despise any work-around an intended skill mechanic or system in the game. One of the most fluid combats i've actually experienced was in GW2, and that one barely has any animation cancel, if you can even call teleporting mid-animation for reposition as an "animation work-around".

All that is stated above is my personal experience, treat it as such please.

Arsan

I'm not stating the game NEEDS animation canceling. I'm simply stating it NEEDS some kind of skill gap if they want PVP players to take it seriously, and there should never be moments where queuing up for a 1v1 and getting matched against a certain class just means "You lose this one, go next."

wArchAngel

I know what you mean, archeage has this type of system where you are screwed if you dont know who you are against before the match starts.
But we barely know anything about the current situation of the pvp, heck, we dont even know 4 of the classes skill sets and playstyles, and the current 4 that we do know are in constant motion, i believe its way too early to talk about any applicable mechanics that will keep skill in-check in pvp.
The rock-paper-scissors is way too vague right now, since we have only 1 "rock". And Steven said that their goal is not to work around a 1v1 balance, but around a group balance.

Arsan

Yeah, this question is mostly based towards the development team. It's to ask a question where if they can't answer it, they think about it at the very least. The game should be balanced as a group work around. The game is being balanced as a group game, but then why have a 1v1 arena? Why play any combination of PVP characters except for the three classes that are considered the "holy trinity." This game is attempting to remove meta, and i believe that's amazing, but that genuinely means that there needs to be moments where a single skilled player is able to outplay one or even two-three unskilled players. This is especially important since tab targeting will be an implemented system.

wArchAngel

The 1v1 is there... Well... Because its there, nothing much to say, people love arenas, and 1v1 is probably the most popular format there is.
Lineage2, which AoC took massive chunk of inspiration from was and is still a highly social, strictly group/clan aimed game, where more than half of the classes cant even 1v1 properly(speaking of classic iteration, not main or essence), yet there is an olympiad system of 1v1, go figure...

Noaani

Arsan wrote: »

I'm not stating the game NEEDS animation canceling. I'm simply stating it NEEDS some kind of skill gap if they want PVP players to take it seriously, and there should never be moments where queuing up for a 1v1 and getting matched against a certain class just means "You lose this one, go next."

They don't want PvE players to take it seriously, so why should they want PvP players to take it seriously?

SepiDN

Working as a team usually shows the skill gap and I don't personally see any reason to boost the individual skill cap too high. I'd like to see RPG combat and not a competetive moba style combat where individual pin point accuracy makes all the difference. I mean I like competitive style but I think it's for different games.

Not to say I want it dumbed down to a point where you just click and hope for the best but there should be a nice middleground. WoW is a good example where skill matters but it's not too overboard as is L2.

Arsan wrote: »

I'm not stating the game NEEDS animation canceling. I'm simply stating it NEEDS some kind of skill gap if they want PVP players to take it seriously, and there should never be moments where queuing up for a 1v1 and getting matched against a certain class just means "You lose this one, go next."

I'm fairly certain this will be the case as the game will be so much balanced around group PvP. There is certain classes that are doomed to lose.

Arsan

"Take it seriously" as in "actually want to put in effort."

Over1ander

Specific Ani-cancels are usually not intended by developers too my knowledge, so far the strongest influence I've seen on development so far a has been ArcheAge and there's definitely a couple ani-cancels (berserk cancel, whirlwind cancel, Gods whip combo, etc.) but the combat in AA was fairly smooth with room for skill gaps.

I don't think it should reach the levels of BDO and BnS due to the reach of AoC and the amount of players it intends to have.

Noaani

Arsan wrote: »

"Take it seriously" as in "actually want to put in effort."

Yeah, they don't seem to want this from their top end PvE players, so why should they want it from their top end PvP players?

The top end of both of these groups seem to not be at all what this game is targeted at.

SepiDN

noaani wrote: »

Arsan wrote: »

"Take it seriously" as in "actually want to put in effort."

Yeah, they don't seem to want this from their top end PvE players, so why should they want it from their top end PvP players?

The top end of both of these groups seem to not be at all what this game is targeted at.

Are you really that sore about damage bar? You can show how serious you can get when you start calculating that stuff without a damage bar looking at combat logs and not keep whining about it.

Arsan

Yes, there's definitely a way that groups can shine and create a skill gap, but usually 90% of it comes with communication. Even if they're god at communication, they generally shouldn't be able to outperform players with extremely high individual skill with worse off communication by all at the same time pressing 3 a whole lot.

Noaani

SepiDN wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Arsan wrote: »

"Take it seriously" as in "actually want to put in effort."

Yeah, they don't seem to want this from their top end PvE players, so why should they want it from their top end PvP players?

The top end of both of these groups seem to not be at all what this game is targeted at.

Are you really that sore about damage bar? You can show how serious you can get when you start calculating that stuff without a damage bar looking at combat logs and not keep whining about it.

What is a damage bar?

Arsan

@SepiDN It's clear he's either trolling or angry. Please attempt to try and keep it on topic, I'd like to avoid fighting in here.

Noaani

Arsan wrote: »

It's clear he's either trolling or angry. Please attempt to try and keep it on topic, I'd like to avoid fighting in here.

Not at all, to both of the above.

I'm simply a realist.

Look at the game, tell me what there is about it that appeals - in it's current state - to a hardcore PvP player or a hardcore PvE player.

The answer, right now, is absolutely nothing.

SepiDN

Arsan wrote: »

Yes, there's definitely a way that groups can shine and create a skill gap, but usually 90% of it comes with communication. Even if they're god at communication, they generally shouldn't be able to outperform players with extremely high individual skill with worse off communication by all at the same time pressing 3 a whole lot.

I understand how you see it but I'd rather it be the opposite. I'd rather give the win to the good communication. I just think creating these niche mechanics that you need some content creator to point out to you are not a good thing. It's just different view of what you want determines the winner of the fight.

Arsan

Communication is definitely key, but someone who fully understands the combat system should always come out on top of three people pressing 1, 2, 3, over and over.

wArchAngel

In its current itiration and its future vision the game appeals massively to large pvp guilds, mostly because of the systems from Archeage and Lineage, where the mpvp was really shining, the game however does not aim(mainly) to appeal to 1v1 pvp's or hardcore pve's, and in my opinion that is good, that is great actually, its about time for a new mmo that concentrates on structured mpvp.

Arsan

Even if it's done consecutively.

Arsan

Archage had insanely rewarding animation canceling that still allowed skilled players to shine no matter what, which was even more insane than most other Asian MMOs. Example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9Quma6q_l4

Noaani

SepiDN wrote: »

Arsan wrote: »

Yes, there's definitely a way that groups can shine and create a skill gap, but usually 90% of it comes with communication. Even if they're god at communication, they generally shouldn't be able to outperform players with extremely high individual skill with worse off communication by all at the same time pressing 3 a whole lot.

I understand how you see it but I'd rather it be the opposite. I'd rather give the win to the good communication. I just think creating these niche mechanics that you need some content creator to point out to you are not a good thing. It's just different view of what you want determines the winner of the fight.

This is how it seems to be as per the game now, and fortunately for you it is the way that is best suited to PvP players that are not playing at the top tier - so it is likely to stay this way.

SepiDN

Arsan wrote: »

Communication is definitely key, but someone who fully understands the combat system should always come out on top of three people pressing 1, 2, 3, over and over.

I agree that face mashing the buttons shouldn't get you the win but there's thing such as positioning, when you flag and who will you challenge and when you initiate the fight in the first place that determines PvP intelligent.

noaani wrote: »

SepiDN wrote: »

Arsan wrote: »

Yes, there's definitely a way that groups can shine and create a skill gap, but usually 90% of it comes with communication. Even if they're god at communication, they generally shouldn't be able to outperform players with extremely high individual skill with worse off communication by all at the same time pressing 3 a whole lot.

I understand how you see it but I'd rather it be the opposite. I'd rather give the win to the good communication. I just think creating these niche mechanics that you need some content creator to point out to you are not a good thing. It's just different view of what you want determines the winner of the fight.

This is how it seems to be as per the game now.

I know and this is one of the many reasons I follow this game.

SepiDN

made duplicant by mistake.

Juk KO

No animation canceling.

I want to see whats fucking happening. Skilled players will manage resources, buffs, debuffs and positioning better then their opponent. Even in rock paper scissor scenarios, usually against your anti-spec you can still pull out the W. Against an equally skilled opponent you should feel handicapped imho.

I see no issue if youre a high burst rogue and you cannot kill the Tank with Sub class Cleric or Fighter. Or a melee hero who cant touch mages with blink for another example.

Having the rock paper scissors element is what further creates diversity in builds but also friends and nemesis's based on the different types of builds/spec's you encounter.



I played a stamina nightblade in pvp Elder scrolls Online for years. Pure 110% raw gank spec no Impen all Divines. I had 1 nemesis who was the worst. He was a full glass cannon magicka nightblade who spammed revealing flare. This flare would literally burn me for 80% of my hp as a dot if i got hit by it. I could then not go back invisible with my cloak skill and had to either heal or purge the DoT. Every time he saw me and lost me due to stealth he would frantically run around looking for me throwing flares everywhere. I would eventually gank him and kill him being a pure glass cannon. The rush of knowing he could be at the same castle as me was always fun. He's caught me a couple times with his flare and got me zerged down. Where ive killed him so many times hes scared of me. Just good times that i will always remember.

Yuyukoyay

The game is already going to have a skill gap by the nature of action based skills though. I'm in favor of builds being more important than your mechanical skill. Mechanical skill will still exist either way.

Songcaller

I'd appreciate Animation Cancelling (I'd hate to be stuck Static)

What I'd be against is Combo Skipping (What some call Animation Cancelling). Combo Skipping really ruins games, Animation Cancelling rather than Static Situations enables fluid combat.

In Combo Skipping you can weave attacks together, but, in the Animation Cancelling I want it would simply end the Static Skills so you can move, rather than Combo Weave.

The difference between Fluid Combat and Static Combat really adds higher skill.

Yuyukoyay

The problem with animation cancelling in regards to melee vs ranged is that ranged will be able to kite longer with it. Ranged being locked into their skills is supposed to be their weakness.

Songcaller

Yeah but the problem with Static Combat is the melee can then constantly stay at the back of a Ranged Player and the Ranged Player can't do anything except die because their skills are static skills and the melee can whittle away irrespective of hard counters.

It is a difficult balance to be sure, you don't want it too static, you don't want it too fluid, but, you don't want it simple either.

Yuyukoyay

I want it to be simple in nature though. I think the action skill system will bridge the gap on it's own.

Songcaller

You want it so all ranged are static and all melee can be action combat and steamroll everyone else?

WoW. You must love lopsided combat. A game created in such a way will shed players, because, true PvPers won't stomach it, there will be no competition, balance will be non-existent and there will be no skill whatsoever, just run behind your target, cling to the back of the target and win every fight.

I'm pleased you aren't a Developer. I never asked for Combo Chains, Supreme Synergies or any Ability Aggregations which means the combat would be simpler than others. Yet, such an approach doesn't mean it should be so simplistic, no tactics except hide and seek can be deployed.