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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
"I don't believe the DPS meters are necessary. It might require more investigation to gather the information, but it won't be as wide spread as DPS meters and such tools. "
"DPS meter can have negative effects."
So my understanding that it is still not decided.
I am not sure about it. I played properly with WoW without any addons except an ACT.
In Diablo 3 I played well without AH.
But, you can believe what you wish until the game launches.
Seen posts about buffs and debuffs and abilities kind of hard to tell if they are worth without dps meters excluding buffs and debuffs thatare present all the time.
There is no way to get away from the best dps or hps or tank cookie cutter set up because of simulators a third pary tool that just uploads your toon and plays it for you with out all the graphics and sounds all number crunching.
No way to stop being cut from raid for underperformance it just takes a little longer to figure it out. More like trial and error
A lot of your posts seem redundant the only factor here is toxicity. On that point would like to say most of the toxicity from dps meters come from instant que not raiding from people that you know. Do not think dps meter would would make it too toxic cause you will be playing with people on your own server.
If the only thing done to prevent a toxic server was no dps meters it would not work.
I'm not aware of anyone arguing that no DPS meters would result in a non-toxic server.
It's not just a lack of DPS meters and combat trackers that will reduce dropping people who don't conform with cookie-cutter builds, it's that in conjunction with having 64 classes, augments from racial, religious, social and Node paths and advanced weapons having up to 5 weapon abilities - in addition to any class being able to use any weapon.
In addition to most raids being open world and dynamic rather than instanced and static.
However low DPS/HPS is only one factor of poor performance, in my experience taking avoidable damage or repeatably failing at boss mechanics are much more likely to get you removed from a group. More often than not low DPS only get people booted if that results in failing DPS checks or extending the boss fight longer than necessary.
This is another thing I don't get. If players are so adamant about needing a tool to play the game the best they can, and are so sure they would use one even if IS doesn't implement one, than why push for one in Ashes?
Clearly, everyone on this thread that believes an ACT/DPS meter is required to play the game at their best plans on using one rather or not one is implemented.
In order to make this program run, you use an Elgato capture card to capture everything on screen (or on a secondary screen, would work better).
This program then analyzes that feed for text - at the moment it is just looking through combat text that can be sent to your in game chat, but the system can (and likely will) be expanded to be able to read floating combat text, as well as recognize queues directly from mobs (triggering an audio clip is one they are working on now).
This program is then feeding that data directly in to ACT. It is providing a fairly solid near live parse of combat. It has a second or two of latency, but that will be improved (and is usable in it that state anyway).
This is not being designed for AoC, but the person leading it's creation is probably going to end up playing this game which means he will put the time in to make the conversions needed from the game it is being built for now.
It is also only one of two programs I know of being made right now that would allow for parsing in Ashes without breaking the EULA - and this program DOESN'T break the EULA of any MMO yet released (even if it goes against the spirit of many). There isn't an EULA in the world that tells you what you can do with computers other than the one you are running the game client on, and the program in question runs on a separate machine (hence the capture card).
Why am I telling you this? Simple...
I'm sure you've seen the "User Experience vs Design" meme that was floating around the place a few years ago. A park, courtyard or similar with nice straight paved paths and such - and a big ugly worn dirt track that leads directly between where people are coming from and where they are going, ignoring the paved paths as if they weren't even there.
My point is, Intrepid are designing their paths in places people aren't going to walk. While it may seem fantastic in their heads to have the paths where they want them, when the game is even just a few weeks old, that ugly worn dirt track will already be showing.
Since Intrepid have not yet laid those paths, I am simply trying to get them to place them where people WILL end up walking. If they place them there, the whole thing may not look as good as it does in their head, but with those paths only placed where people are going to walk, then they have the rest of the space to make things look good.
WoW didn't start off taking DBM in to consideration with it's raid mobs - because DBM wasn't around at the start of WoW. However, once it became widespread - a fact that Blizzard has no influence over if the program doesn't break the EULA - they had literally no choice but to take it in to consideration when developing raid content, which made it mandatory for raids rather than just widespread.
As I outlined above, a "legal" combat tracker will exist for Ashes. The developers will eventually have to acknowledge that fact - not now, not even before launch, but at some point.
My entire argument for a combat tracker in Ashes, and how I would implement one boils down to the following; one will exist, content will be developed based on players using it, I would rather it be one that Intrepid have control over than one they don't.
As for implementation, I fully understand the reasons for wanting to keep a tracker out of the hands of people that don't know how to use it - like @dygz.
While it is impossible to keep it out of the hands of every player that doesn't know how to use it properly, it is possible to go some of the way towards that. I am a firm believer that things need not be all or nothing, it is ok to do a thing even if it is only going to be partially effective - and my suggestion to implement a parser to the game as a guild reward. This could perhaps be competing with a boost to the quantity of raw materials harvested, and maybe something RP focused like better RP cred for good ERP or something (I honestly don't know what RP'ers want, which is why I stay out of RP focused conversations - a fact others on these forums could take note of).
It isn't a perfect solution, but that's ok. It's a good solution, which is enough.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
They clearly stated that they will not support addons. (Maybe interface modifiers will be available.)
They clearly stated that there will not be first person view.
They clearly stated that there will not be visual signs on the ground where the boss will attack.
They clearly stated lot of things.
Regarding the DPS meter, the strongest statement is that it is not necessary. It can mean they will not implement, but it also can mean that it will be available, but thank to the lot of randomness, it will not give too much help. I also can imagine, that it will not be available at the beginning but if some half-legal stuff will be created they will add it to the game.
Additionally I agree with that, it is not necessary to play the game, but I think it is a useful tool. If there will only be available 3rd party half-legal ones, I will not use them.
It is something like a pepper to the food. Some people like it, some not. I appreciate if I found some pepper on the table and the person who like it use it. But if there is no pepper on the table, I try what the chief prepared. If it tastes good without it, I will come back.
This ties into @ghoosty 's food analogy. If the food is prepared well you shouldn't need additions like salt and pepper on the table. Blizzard is like the chef who knows their food is under-seasoned and instead of changing their recipe, they just put a load of condiments on the table for the customers to fix the food themselves.
You'll notice that a lot of the mods players used to use back in Vanilla WoW are no longer used at all, because Blizzard fixed the problems that the mods were designed to correct. Things like the Emergency Monitor, CT raid assist, decursive, cast bar addons, etc. all are now redundant because of the changes Blizzard have made to the game over the years.
I'd like to think that the the players won't go behind the dev's backs and developer a combat tracker that circumvents the EULA, but I'm not that naive. There will always be someone who is determined to have their way regardless of what is best for the game, and others will follow.
The future you describe is very similar to what has happened in GW2. Like Intrepid, Arenanet were opposed to any kind of addons and dps meters for years. But after the players started using them "in secret", the devs finally allowed them to be used openly. The result was predictable, with higher levels of toxicity and meta-gaming in PUGs that have torn the community apart.
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/80769/your-dps-is-trash
While your snark level is very high with this post, you do bring up a point that I feel should be made.
Before getting to that though, I want to point out how unlikely it is that Ashes will have any kind of "headshot" mechanic. Not saying it won't, just that it's really unlikely.
Right, now to the point.
Developers of online games have their lawyers draw up an agreement that all players need to agree to in order to play the game. This agreement outlines many things, but one of those things - the one that is pertinent to this discussion - is in relation to third party programs.
Now, to be 100% clear, no EULA in history has banned third party programs. This is because they can't. Every single piece of software on your computer that was not written by either party signing that EULA (you and the game developer) is, by legal definition, third party software.
This includes, among many other things, browsers and operating systems (I guess technically Microsoft could state in an EULA that you are not allowed third party programs, but they don't).
So, the common player misconception that you aren't allowed to run third party software with your favorite online game is simply false.
What the section of an EULA that talks about third party software actually does, is tell you what functions that third party software is NOT allowed to do. This usually includes any form of direct input in to the game, it usually includes any form of interference with the game client, it usually includes anythings that reads the part if your systems ram that has been set aside for the game, it usually includes any form of packet sniffing etc.
Now, the program you talk about in your post has to input mouse controls directly to the game client - which is directly against the EULA of every MMO I've ever played.
Now, if you are an MMO developer, and you have an EULA, anything players use that go against that EULA is something for you and your team to fight against. You don't develop around such things, you find who is using them and you ban them - because they are violating your EULA.
However, when people create a tool that doesn't violate the EULA in any way, you don't have the option of banning those players. What you then have is a tool that is in your games community, that players are allowed to use, that isn't against any rules you have set up, even if you don't want that specific tool to exist.
Now, in such circumstance, the developer has no option other than to accept the tool. They can't try and ban it, as the only way to ban that tool would be to disallow screen capture - which then kills off your Twitch and YouTube communities. Since the analysis can be done on a different computer - and developers have absolutely zero say in what you do on other computers you may possess, there is literally nothing they can do other than accept it exists.
So I guess the TL;DR for you would be that the tool you propose would violate the EULA and thus force Intrepid to fight against it, while the tools I have seen in development (well, I've only seen one first hand) don;t break the EULA and thus Intrepid are unable to fight them, regardless of whether they want to or not.
Which leads back to my other point. If all of these things exist, why would IS implement one? Players that don't need one or would never use it would gain nothing from it, and players that feel it's necessary will obviously (as many have pointed out) use 3rd party programs. Those that try to use Addons will (as of now I suppose) be banned, those that use programs similar to the ones you mention will be fine.
Also, if IS does implement one, and it's not as good as those used by others (or as good or familiar as someones favorite) it's likely they will use outside ones anyways.
As someone that worked for many years as a Chef (with a capital "C"), I feel I am qualified to say that if food is prepared properly and additions like salt and pepper are not needed at the table, it is because whoever cooked that food put salt and pepper in it while making it - because that is how you prepare food properly.
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A lot of the early mods for WoW really were things that Blizzard simply didn't, couldn't or wouldn't add to the game at the time. Most (though not all) of the mods that I know of that were used back then but are now redundant are redundant because Blizzard added the functionality to the game. A few mods were made redundant due to them fixing content.
Your GW2 example is interesting - I stopped following that game years ago. I can't say I'm surprised things went badly if people were suddenly allowed to use a combat tracker openly after many years. If I had been playing a game successfully for that long, and then someone told me my build was bad, I'd be pissed.
Both of these are examples of developers not putting things in the game themselves before launch though. In both games, things went bad.
Surely the solution is to not leave it up to players to develop these tools (which we all know will happen), but rather to give them these tools in a somewhat controlled manner.
I mean, the fact that both WoW and GW2 are worse off for not having these things at launch is not really a strong argument for not having these things at launch, imo.
So the question is, can you develop challenging group content that doesn't rely on player dps?
That's why I've been saying all along to put it in the game as an optional guild perk.
I'm obviously making some assumptions with the following, but if the options are a combat tracker that only tracks members of your guild, a boost if in an all guild group against single group encounters, a boost to raw harvest yields (perhaps a bigger boost if you are grouped with guild members when harvesting - as it is a guild perk), better information on nodes near the guild hall or exclusive (or easier) access to a range of decorative options, then there is one very specific subset of players that would even consider the combat tracker.
Adding it like this does a few things. First, it eliminates the need for third party - yet still 'legal' - combat trackers. Second, it means players that don't understand their full use likely won't have access to them. Third, it means even if players that don't know what they are doing DO have access to a meter, if you are not in a guild with them, they are unable to track you.
With this, no player in the game can have anyone track their combat without essentially giving them permission (being in a guild with that perk counts as giving permission to members of that guild).
While I'm sure someone will say "just make it so you have to opt in to a combat tracker when joining a guild or raid", I think it's fairly obvious to me that if this were the case, pick up groups and raids with less than smart leaders would simply require people to opt in, making the whole thing pointless. However, no one is going to ask you to leave your guild just to join a pick up (unless we end up with ESO structure of guilds, which I seriously hope isn't the case).
This isn't a perfect system, I'm fully aware of that. It is, however, a good system and - more importantly - a workable system.
As to your last line, yes you can develop challenging group content that doesn't rely on player DPS, but my question then is - if they do that, why even have DPS classes?
It is the less-than-good architect that put paths in place without taking in to account where people need to walk.
You can't blame that on anyone other than the person that put the path in the wrong place.
As to your question of "If all of these things exist, why would IS implement one?" the answer is, to me, simple.
Control.
If Intrepid implement it, they can do so in a way where not everyone will have access to it, but everyone is ok with that.
If Intrepid implement it, they have 100% control over what functions it has and doesn't have. If there is a functioning combat tracker that is able to tell the raid what the encounter is doing and what players are doing, there will be no need for players to put the effort in to implement anything else.
There is literally no way to aviod it . Dps Meters or no Dps meters. Reason for no Dps meters is to deter toxic element in game nothing to do if you need them or not or if you know how to use them.
Let me ask you this question. How many Raid Leaders are going to let you into their raid without knowing your dps. Since there are no dps meters they would HAVE to know this information first so...
People are going to notice that certain builds do more dps no matter what. Does not even matter if we have a dps meter or not.
I see you guys go around in circles with all your posts.
How much less toxic are servers going to be without dps meters well not much. I mean it helps a little but but like I said it also hurts a little but (people upset about not having one) so whole thing is just pointless.
Toxic people will always be toxic.
Making the ACT/DPS meter would be the same. Just because Ashes has one doesn't mean players won't use others they favor more for a variety of reasons.
I have already told everything what I wanted to tell in this topic. Wanderingmist linked a similar topic from GW2. I read that as well. I would like to highlight one comment from there.
There were no DPS meter at the beginning. You can see what happened there.
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/965528/#Comment_965528
Is there even anything new to say about it? Or are y'all just reiterating the same stuff with a plethora of examples? (I'm not going to read 100+ long-winded posts, just to find out.)
At times, you won't be able to predict where people will walk at all. When this happens, all you can do is try to make an educated guess and then hope.
However, that isn't the case with Ashes. We know exactly where people will walk. Maybe not where everyone will walk, but we know where enough people will walk that it is a bad design decision to not build a path there.
As to the green space - again I agree. Green is good.
However, a dirt track isn't green.
If you want to maximize green space, the first thing you should do is put paths where there would otherwise be user generated tracks, because they won't be green anyway. Then you add in paths to make things look good if you need to, then you work with what is left. If you want to maximize green space, what you don't do is build paths in places where people are unlikely to walk, regardless of how nice a path may look there.
Even though I haven't followed GW2 for years now, I can't say I'm surprised. In fact, what has happened in that game - according to that thread - is exactly what I predicted would happen here.
I'm going to basically transpose what I gathered from that thread, but convert a few things to be more "Ashes-y" - or specifically to fit in with examples used in this thread.
Back in the day, before combat trackers were allowed, mage/mage was considered the best DPS. If you wanted to run content as an Ice Mage, almost anyone would be fine taking you along, even though you weren't what was considered by mot to be the best DPS class.
However, if your group/raid were not successful, you would be booted well before a mage/mage would be, because everyone knows that the mage/mage was *THE* DPS class, and Ice Mage was more about personal preference. I mean, no one had the numbers to back this up, but literally *EVERYONE* know it to be true.
Now, with no combat tracker, those mage/mage players - potentially players that only play that build because they know they will always get first dibs on DPS spots - may be lazy little shits that are contributing nothing at all to the group/raid. Thing is, no one knows. So, the group leader needs to boot a DPS player and bring in someone different in order to try and beat the content the group/raid is failing on. In this situation, *LITERALLY* all that leader has to go on is the class name, and since everyone knows mage/mage is *THE best DPS in the game, obviously he will want to keep them -and so the Ice Mage is booted.
Thing is, tat Ice Mage may well have been out performing even the best mage/mage, let along the lazy little shits. He may be a player that really enjoys his class, and is able to pull more out of it than someone just playing a class because that's what they have been told is good. We'll never know though, because we have no way of finding out.
Now move on to the day Combat Trackers are made 'legal' in Ashes. Suddenly, people realize mage/mage is good, but only if it has a good player behind it. Players can now see that an Ice Mage is basically on par with a mage/mage, and a good player behind an Ice Mage is as good as good player behind any other DPS class.
If that same group as before were to now run that same content and have the same initial failure as a result, the leader of that group can now look at what happened, see who the lazy little shit is playing a mage/mage, and that Ice Mage that puts all his effort in to that one specific class can now carry on with the group.
Basically, all of that is what I've said in this thread will happen in Ashes. While it would be easy to dismiss it as 'a nice thought', or some such, other than the names of the classes (and the one time I mentioned the name of the game), it is literally exactly what has happened in GW2.
In the end, if a group is failing because it is not reaching the DPS it needs, and you are the DPS player that is doing the least amount of DPS, then you really can't blame anyone but yourself if you are the one that gets replaced.
This is literally the only thing that allowing a full combat tracker of everyone you are grouped with would result in that wouldn't happen without a combat tracker anyway. Everything else that players talk about (toxicity, required builds etc) will happen to the same level with or without a combat tracker - though at least with a combat tracker, the builds have a better chance of being right.
My best friends were always my tanks so i never really had such a problem.
Another thing would be that our healers were literally gods and we treated them like they deserved, if someone was blamed it was us DD's most of the time.
We also had a combat tracker, so we always knew who fucked up.