Idk, showing an achievement that says you were able to clear a specific content I think is less intrusive than someone monitoring a player's play-style and then telling them they are "spec'd" wrong or that they chose a less than optimal progression. Regardless of how I built my character I could potentially still clear the content.
I don't see asking for the achievement as being as bad. If you haven't done the particular raid, you probably don't want to do it the first time with those that are there to power through.
Seems like a better response imo.
Totally agree, but not having a combat tracker doesn't stop people from acting like this.
The kind of people that will tell others they are spec'd wrong don't need numbers - hell, they don't even use numbers properly.
All it takes is someone seeing the combat animations from your ability and augment selection and any player that is the kind of person that will tell you that you are spec'd wrong will then have everything they need to tell you that you are spec'd wrong.
At least if you have actual hard numbers you can tell that person to fuck right off and that your spec is better - nothing shuts a loudmouth like this up faster than topping the DPS parse a few fights in a row.
Without those numbers though, you have nothing you can use as a come back other than "I'll spec the way I want", which even though is 100% appropriate, is a fairly weak argument in this situation.
My over all point is - no matter what you do, people will be dicks. Put a combat tracker in, don't put one in, those people will still be dicks. To me, the fact that these people will be dicks one way or the other is not a valid reason to take a useful tool away from the player base - even if it could be considered a good reason to put that tool in to the game in a way that prevents much of that negative behavior based around that tool (that negative behavior will then just be moved - it is not being eliminated).
If I thought for a second that not having a combat tracker would stop people telling others that their spec is wrong, or stop people saying that someone isn't good enough for X content, then I'd be all for not having one at all.
Thing is though, removing the ability to track combat doesn't stop that kind of behavior at all.
People will definitely make something. Whether they will be able to use that something without being banned is something we shall have to wait to see.
It is possible to make an application that scans the screen for text. It is possible for that application to then log that text in a file. It is possible for Advanced Combat Tracker to then read that file. It is possible for all of this to be done in a way that couldn't be detect.
While it is possible that Intrepid could install an system that scans what other programs a computer is running (doing this will see their potential subscribers cut by around a half), it is even easier for the programs that are described above to have user defined program names. Intrepid could well look what you have running and see Firefox and Task Manager running - but Firefox and Task Manager may well be what you have defined as the names of the two programs above.
No developer of any game has ever had much success in dealing with any kind of third party program that doesn't directly interact with their games client - the best they can hope for is the occasional idiot streaming gameplay with it running, in which case they can ban that one player.
Mostly I have one issue, and it has been mentioned already: "go read guide about boss".
And that's my major issue with DPS Meters. You have to:
1- Read your class guide, which will be the most efficient at DPS, which will take out any type of input from you, and exploration. Eventually you will just press buttons and achieve highest DPS, having no fun or idea of what you're doing.
2- Read boss guide. You won't figure out anything by yourself.
So, how does a combat tracker help the community?
Omg, you lazy, you're not running CookieButter Spec 1548, you suck, kick from group.
And I will tell you that people WON'T care about your DPS if you don't have top spec, they just won't recruit to party
Your major issue with "DPS Meters" is that you have to read the class guide and boss guide.
Isn't that an issue with class guides and boss guides? I mean, both of them exist without DPS meters...
And as to your last point, as I and others have pointed out, people that will kick someone from a group for not being the spec they think you should be will still kick you out for not being the spec they think you should be. This kind of thing is also not in any way reliant of a combat tracker - if different abilities and augments have different animations and particle effects, some one at some point will tell you that you are spec'd wrong.
At least with a DPS meter, you have a tool to be able to show to them that you are not spec'd wrong - without one you have nothing.
Dps meters are a dungeon mechanic.
If dungeon bosses are dps races then they are badly designed.
In the open world bad players cannot reach the areas that good players are farming or leveling. All players in those areas should be considered able.
I never liked dps meters. It forces players to select a specific weapon or class.
So what if a two handed sword warrior is dealing a bit less dps than a twin sword warrior? Without a dps meter nobody would ever notice the difference.
Also /join a guild....... dont pug
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Lack of DPS meters alone won’t stop the behavior, but in conjunction with non-static and non-repeatable raids... in addition to raiding with friends from your Node to end threats to the Node, the behavior will be reduced.
I expect it will be significantly reduced.
It should be easier to find and play with the people we like to play when we like to play because we will know where those people live.
And because we won’t be moving to other zones just because we’ve outleveled a zone.
It should be much easier to teach people how to react to other players’ weapon combos to get the most bang for the buck than it will be to rant about DPS.
It’s going to be more important to know how individuals are augmented than it will be to monitor combat trackers.
We shouldn’t need a tool to be able to adequately track combo combo, combo, ultimate - combo, combo, ultimate.
posting an achievement or meter information will not be an indication of ability to do content successfully a second time.
To be clear, I have never considered this to be much of an indication anyway.
However, the kind of player that would kick someone out of a raid or group because they think that player isn't spec'd *right* are also the kind of player that think these things are accurate.
This thread seems to be bout stopping that kind of player being that kind of player, rather than being about the actual merits of any given tool. This is despite the fact that the above kind of player will be that kind of player regardless of what tools they do or do not have.
As to the rest of your post, a combat tracker is a useful tool within a single nights raiding. You don't need to use it to compare from one nights raid to another, or from one raid guild to another for it to be a useful tool.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Dps meters are a dungeon mechanic.
If dungeon bosses are dps races then they are badly designed.
DPS race bosses do have their place, but they need to be used sparingly. I am actually a huge fan of bosses where the difficulty slowly ramps up over the course of the fight. While not a strict DPS check with a hard enrage, these fights gradually build up the pressure on the dps who need to finish the fight before the healers run out of mana and everyone dies.
Dps meters are a dungeon mechanic.
If dungeon bosses are dps races then they are badly designed.
DPS race bosses do have their place, but they need to be used sparingly. I am actually a huge fan of bosses where the difficulty slowly ramps up over the course of the fight. While not a strict DPS check with a hard enrage, these fights gradually build up the pressure on the dps who need to finish the fight before the healers run out of mana and everyone dies.
Absolutely.
There should be some group and raid mobs where the tank has to be 100% on their game or the group/raid will die. By definition, this would be a tank check.
There should be some group and raid mobs where the healers have to be 100% on their game or the group/raid will die. By definition, this would be a healer check.
There should be some group and raid mobs where the CC has to be 100% on their game or the group/raid will die. By definition, this would be a CC check.
There should be some group and raid mobs where the DPS has to be 100% on their game or the group/raid will die. By definition, this would be a DPS check.
I seriously hope no one even tries to argue with the above in any serious manner, though I'm sure any attempt would be entertaining.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2019
I agree, but I do not think a DPS/ACT are needed for those 100% Role Checks. If the area/mob* is for a certain level range of play, then there should be a variety of builds that could perform at that level.
So the 100% on point Tank Check would either be successful or not. You'll know with or without a tracker/meter. Because of the stipulation of being 100% on point a good player with the meta tank build could still fail, so what use is the meter?
Hopefully the 100% on point checks are more robust. Situations where the Tank/ Mage doesn't quite have to be at 100% but the Tank/Rogue would have to be and vice versa. Same with all the other augments.
I like the thought of these typea of encounters, but I am not sure why they would benefit from a Tracker/Meter.
Either way it seems like building a character (outside of looking builds up or being told what builds are good) is trial and error.
I use dps meters to test out performance of different setups. So if I am not running the usuall top dps cookie cutter set up. I can tell them it only makes this much difference so no big deal.
With programs (that maybe inaccurate) like Ask mister robot. Basically you look at some ones gear set up in game then transfer that information to website and it will tell you all their supposed mistakes.
So that is the real reason people are telling you about your set up.. They upload it to some website and bingo that player supposedly can tell you everything you are doing wrong as far as set up is concerned. Thing is I had a dps meter and knew that Mister Robot was very inaccurate. So all this people telling you what your build
should be are mistaken and think they are smart.
So really no dps meter basically makes those type of websites the authority on how you should run your set up cuase you do not have a good dps meter that helps you analyze data to show you the truth.
I like the thought of these typea of encounters, but I am not sure why they would benefit from a Tracker/Meter.
They wouldn't directly, but there is a definite indirect way in which they would.
With tank checks, there is essentially only one point of failure. Either your tank was successful and so the encounter was killed, or your tank wasn't successful and so your raid failed.
This also applied to encounters in which CC is key (very few raids rely on multiple people CC'ing in such encounters, it usually goes badly).
Where combat trackers come in to use though (in terms of the above four encounters) is in the healer and DPS check encounters. A good combat tracker will be able to tell you if some of the heals your healers are casting are wasted and can help lead you and your raid towards better ways of working together.
With DPS checks, a combat tracker can tell the raid who it is in the raid that may need assistance in improving their DPS. It may be that you need to get your support classes working better, or it may be that someone on the raid needs some assistance/guidance with a build or spell rotation/priority.
At the end of the day though, if you have a raid of 40, with 8 of them being healers and 30 being DPS or DPS support, if your raid isn't passing a DPS check, then you have no way of knowing where the issue is unless you have a way of tracking combat.
I still fail to actually see the issue with combat trackers at all.
Some people seem to have some fantasy that in games without combat trackers, every one can play what ever build they want and no one they group with will care or know if they are pulling their weight or not.
That isn't true.
If anything, in games with many possible builds, people are MORE willing to give you a shot if you have an out there build and they are able to see the numbers that build can produce.
Without a tracker, if people don't "get" what they can see of your build (class, weapon, armor, skill selection) they often just won't bring you along on content. This does force people in to some cookie cutter builds.
At least with a combat tracker, people are more willing to give you and your out there build a shot. Even if they don't think it will be as good as a more standard build, they are often simply intrigued to see just how well it does - something they can't see unless they have a combat tracker.
Yes, with a combat tracker there will be kids that kick you from groups if you don't pull the numbers they think you should. But then those same players will kick you from a group before you get to the content if they don't like your build and can't track you.
Additionally, with a tracker, you can actually work on your build to be more effective. It is a fair assumption to make that with all the abilities classes will have, and all the possible augments, if a player were to specify that they wanted to be an ice mage, they would have more ice spells available to them than they are able to select at any one time. Then those that wish to do so will be able to take their unique build that they wish to run, and actually put some effort in to it to make it as effective as they can so as to continue to pull their weight in groups. Without a tracker, all they could do is select random ice spells and hope they do OK
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I agree, but I do not think a DPS/ACT are needed for those 100% Role Checks. If the area/mob* is for a certain level range of play, then there should be a variety of builds that could perform at that level.
So the 100% on point Tank Check would either be successful or not. You'll know with or without a tracker/meter. Because of the stipulation of being 100% on point a good player with the meta tank build could still fail, so what use is the meter?
Hopefully the 100% on point checks are more robust. Situations where the Tank/ Mage doesn't quite have to be at 100% but the Tank/Rogue would have to be and vice versa. Same with all the other augments.
Right. A Tank Check wouldn't just be about how Guardians are playing their role - it would include all the players who have Tank as a secondary archetype - and there should be a way for them to pick up the perceived slack.
Even in a party of 8, aspects of the Tank role could be handled by several people in the party - especially when the players are at max level.
A party with a Tank/Rogue who seems to be struggling might get some back-up from the Rogue/Tank and the Mage/Tank.
Or, a seemingly weak Tank/Rogue might not be as much of an issue with a party that includes a Rogue/Cleric and a Mage/Cleric. That party might not need as much tanking as a party comprised of all "pure" archetypes.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Some people seem to have some fantasy that in games without combat trackers, every one can play what ever build they want and no one they group with will care or know if they are pulling their weight or not.
That isn't true.
We aren't really talking about "games without trackers" - we're talking about Ashes of Creation.
Also, you are the one who is obsessed with the concept of "not pulling their weight".
You think that raiding in Ashes is going to be like raiding in other MMORPGs.
I don't think anyone has said players don't have to "pull their weight". What people have said is that there isn't just one way for a player to pull their weight - at least there shouldn't be. And if that's the case in an RPG, that's really an issue of poor game design.
Devs don't really design that way. Elitist players just think that way.
If anything, in games with many possible builds, people are MORE willing to give you a shot if you have an out there build and they are able to see the numbers that build can produce.
It's not really even about having many possible builds - it's about having more than one viable strategy to defeat bosses. Elitist players who just want the fastest, most efficient strategy as determined by combat tracker stats don't care if there are more than one viable strategy.
Without a tracker, if people don't "get" what they can see of your build (class, weapon, armor, skill selection) they often just won't bring you along on content. This does force people in to some cookie cutter builds.
In Ashes, there won't be the same luxury to refuse to bring people along... because the bosses won't just be sitting around cleaning their claws month after month waiting for players to repeat their attacks on the instanced boss lair.
How and why people raid and dungeon delve is going to be very different in Ashes of Creation - due to the game's unique design.
Too lazy to sift through the entire thread for whoever mentioned it for the credit, but someone stated an idea I would be okay with as well, and that would be having a test dummy to test out your base damage on just to compare damage numbers with certain skills and get a dps readout for that. Division 2 does this and it is useful for testing all the different weapons against each other to find what works best for you.
Now before all you 5 year olds start screeching like banshees, yes I realize this would not be a perfect measurement because actual combat is way different that hitting a test dummy. There are builds in Division 2 that some people think are great because the DPS is high, but in actual use they are garbage setups.
EDIT: Forgot to mention this is just a dps example and nothing impressive in the link below
You have obviously never met a good modder lol. The smart ones use dummy accounts and usually hide their IP so they can't be banned permanently.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Where’s the LOL button when ya need one???
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
For me it's not that I think Ashes should not have one, just that they aren't planning on having one and that seems sufficient to me. I guess my main argument would be, if IS doesn't want one in Ashes there shouldn't be one.
I think both sides of this issue have merits and the addition of a DPS/ACT would likely not effect me at all. Except for (maybe) making bad players better because they just min/max specs based on DPS/ACT. This would likely happen anyways though.
Having a meter tell you that you could do better is different than trying, failing, and wanting to do better. Although, in many cases, I can see a player wanting to try and fail and then using a meter to determine why. I am not a power gamer, a min/max builder, or someone that feels their character needs to be the best or in a certain percent of the best, so I will likely never fully understand the use of said meters.
How can Intrepid ban someone if they don't know that person is using an add on?
It's *REALLY* easy to make it impossible for for anyone else to ever see exactly what it is you are running on your computer.
Literally the only way Intrepid would even know specific add on exists is if someone streams themselves using it - at which point all they would know is that one person is using it, and they have no way of detecting if any other player is using it.
As I've said many times in this thread, add ons don't need to interact with the game client directly. If a program is running on your computer but not interacting with the games client, literally all Intrepid can ever do is pull the name the program is running under - though even that would see them lose many thousands of subscribers - and there are ways to alter the name a program is running under at will.
I've recently seen programs that pull from another games in game text as I've outlined above as being possible. They would take a small amount of work to get working in AoC, work that couldn't begin until we have a finalized UI, but it absolutely will happen if there is no other solution.
One again though, Intrepid can't ban players for using something that Intrepid can't see.
It's not really even about having many possible builds - it's about having more than one viable strategy to defeat bosses. Elitist players who just want the fastest, most efficient strategy as determined by combat tracker stats don't care if there are more than one viable strategy.
How well do you think a raid of 40 people just doing their own thing would compare to a raid of 40 people that are dedicated to working as a single unit towards a common goal?
Because that is what a raid is. You forgo your individual ambitions in order to further the progress of the whole. You sometimes do things that are not entirely enjoyable to you, because in doing that thing, you are furthering the progress of the hole, and you get more enjoyment out of progressing the whole than you get out of progressing the individual.
In return, you get to be a part of a group of 40 people that are also forging their own individual ambitions in order to further the whole.
It isn't about elitism at all, and those that think raiding is about elitism don't know raiding well at all.
Raiding is teamwork. Not everyone is cut out to be a part of a whole, rather than the focus of it, so not everyone is cut out to raid.
AoC will have challenging raid content. This is a given. When tackling this content, raids as a whole will decide on the best method for that specific raid. There may be other strategies, but that day, in that zone, against that encounter, on that pull, that raid is only using one - and so every member of that raid on that pull against that encounter in that zone on that day had better do what they are supposed to do otherwise they are wasting the time of the other 39 people present.
The interesting thing I've found with raiders is that they have more alts than most people would think. Not alts for raiding, as only guilds in games with overly easy combat systems ask raiders to have multiple raid ready characters - in the games I play, combat is too intricate for a player to be able to easily switch from one class to another and still be fully competent. Rather, the alts most raiders have are alts that they enjoy - it could be a race they really like, a class or build they wanted to try, a character on a different server or at a different level to play with a friend, or in some games I've played, characters locked at a specific level in order to be able to participate in nostalgic content at an appropriate level.
I bring this up to illustrate that while raiders forgo the individual ambition for the greater good, they only do that during the time in which they need to raid (and the time they need to spend becoming raid ready). Outside of raids, these players still run builds on characters just because they wanted to be an ice mage, they still play races just because they like them, they still craft because they enjoy making items - but then when it's time to raid, they set that down in order to become a small part of a greater whole.
For me it's not that I think Ashes should not have one, just that they aren't planning on having one and that seems sufficient to me. I guess my main argument would be, if IS doesn't want one in Ashes there shouldn't be one.
I think both sides of this issue have merits and the addition of a DPS/ACT would likely not effect me at all. Except for (maybe) making bad players better because they just min/max specs based on DPS/ACT. This would likely happen anyways though.
Having a meter tell you that you could do better is different than trying, failing, and wanting to do better. Although, in many cases, I can see a player wanting to try and fail and then using a meter to determine why. I am not a power gamer, a min/max builder, or someone that feels their character needs to be the best or in a certain percent of the best, so I will likely never fully understand the use of said meters.
Honestly, I would agree with the above if I didn't know for a fact that without a combat tracker implemented in to the game, players will make one that IS have little control over.
That would be the worst outcome for all involved. It would be bad for the casual player, as there would be builds posted with them having no understanding of how someone even worked out how effective a given build is. It would be bad for the non casual player, as they would have to us what ever tools get developed or risk falling behind the curve. It would be bad for IS as they would hve to try and figure out a way to detect players using the tool, and fail miserably to do so.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
How well do you think a raid of 40 people just doing their own thing would compare to a raid of 40 people that are dedicated to working as a single unit towards a common goal?
I haven't ever talked about partying or raiding as everyone doing their own thing rather than working as a unit.
Or even as one person doing their own thing rather than working as a unit.
Because that is what a raid is. You forgo your individual ambitions in order to further the progress of the whole. You sometimes do things that are not entirely enjoyable to you, because in doing that thing, you are furthering the progress of the hole, and you get more enjoyment out of progressing the whole than you get out of progressing the individual.
I disagree that you forgo your individual ambitions in order to further the progress of the whole.
Rather you try to synchronize ambitions to further the progress of the whole. Sometimes doing things you don't entirely enjoy shouldn't need to include using abilities that are counter to the RP of the character you've built just to fit a cookie-cutter build or strategy as determined by meta tools that weren't implemented by the devs.
Helping progress an individual in the group can lead to enjoyment for the whole. I think you know that.
Also, helping an individual play their character the way they like in a manner that helps the whole can also bring enjoyment for the whole. Typical of RPGs in general, but gets easily lost in MMORPGs.
It isn't about elitism at all, and those that think raiding is about elitism don't know raiding well at all.
Thinking that someone gets to be a part of your group is the epitome of elitist thinking.
It's also the wrong focus. It's not about trying to be part of a group, rather it's about defeating the threats using the abilities of the character you've built. That's what RPGs are all about.
AoC will have challenging raid content. This is a given. When tackling this content, raids as a whole will decide on the best method for that specific raid. There may be other strategies, but that day, in that zone, against that encounter, on that pull, that raid is only using one - and so every member of that raid on that pull against that encounter in that zone on that day had better do what they are supposed to do otherwise they are wasting the time of the other 39 people present.
Ashes will have challenging raid content. Since the devs are not supporting DPS meters, that means that challenging raid content can be defeated without DPS meters.
I bring this up to illustrate that while raiders forgo the individual ambition for the greater good, they only do that during the time in which they need to raid (and the time they need to spend becoming raid ready). Outside of raids, these players still run builds on characters just because they wanted to be an ice mage, they still play races just because they like them, they still craft because they enjoy making items - but then when it's time to raid, they set that down in order to become a small part of a greater whole.
Remove action combat cause some1 could write an undetectable script.
The only reason people want an ACT is because they cant figure out how to play without?
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
Remove action combat cause some1 could write an undetectable script.
The only reason people want an ACT is because they cant figure out how to play without?
A script is easy to spot as it interacts with the game client.
An attempt to stop something that can easily be spotted and dealt with is not a reason to put or not put something in to the game. An attempt to stop something that would otherwise be inevitable and undetectable however, is a good reason to do so.
As to why someone would run a combat tracker; it's because actual good players - as opposed to those that just think they are good - know that they are the only way to squeeze out that last one or two percent. Without one you can think you are running a good build - with one you can know.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you need a combat tracker to mine that last one or two percent difference, I don't think that makes you a good player. It might mean you are proficient with understanding the classes and the tool used, but assuming that makes a good player is odd. A good player is more than a maxed out character creator.
I am a good player, I know I am a good player, and I have never needed a meter to prove it to myself.
Ashes will have challenging raid content. Since the devs are not supporting DPS meters, that means that challenging raid content can be defeated without DPS meters.
If content is challenging for those without a combat tracker, it will not be challenging for those with a combat tracker - and there WILL be players with a combat tracker whether Intrepid know about it or not.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2019
I guess you don't understand basic English - that "your" can be plural.
Although that is really beside the point because the word of emphasis is get - as if joining a group is supposed to be a privilege that people like you allow others.
FYI, there is way more to the multiplayer aspect of MMORPGs than just grouping.
I don't care whether or not content is challenging to people with a combat tracker.
I guess you don't understand basic English - that "your" can be plural.
Yes it can. "Your" is used in reference to the second person, or the second and third person, but never to the first person. When referring to the first person, it is always "my" or if including either the second person or a third person, "our".
In an MMO, any group, guild or raid you are in is by this very definition "our". The only time a group, guild or raid can ever be referred to as "your" is if you are not in it.
Although that is really beside the point because the word of emphasis is get - as if joining a group is supposed to be a privilege that people like you allow others.
If someone joins a group I am a part of, or if myself and someone else decide to form a group and invite others, it is as much my privilege as it is anyone else's.
That seems to be the thing you don't understand, in a group, raid or guild, everyone is equal. Yes there are leaders, but leaders are only there because everyone (generally) agrees they should do the leading. That doesn't make the group, raid or guild "theirs" though.
I don't know what kind of experiences you've had in the past to make you think this isn't the case.
I don't care whether or not content is challenging to people with a combat tracker.
Yes, but you also don't care about the top end raid content, so your opinion on the matter is akin to my opinion on achievements.
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Totally agree, but not having a combat tracker doesn't stop people from acting like this.
The kind of people that will tell others they are spec'd wrong don't need numbers - hell, they don't even use numbers properly.
All it takes is someone seeing the combat animations from your ability and augment selection and any player that is the kind of person that will tell you that you are spec'd wrong will then have everything they need to tell you that you are spec'd wrong.
At least if you have actual hard numbers you can tell that person to fuck right off and that your spec is better - nothing shuts a loudmouth like this up faster than topping the DPS parse a few fights in a row.
Without those numbers though, you have nothing you can use as a come back other than "I'll spec the way I want", which even though is 100% appropriate, is a fairly weak argument in this situation.
My over all point is - no matter what you do, people will be dicks. Put a combat tracker in, don't put one in, those people will still be dicks. To me, the fact that these people will be dicks one way or the other is not a valid reason to take a useful tool away from the player base - even if it could be considered a good reason to put that tool in to the game in a way that prevents much of that negative behavior based around that tool (that negative behavior will then just be moved - it is not being eliminated).
If I thought for a second that not having a combat tracker would stop people telling others that their spec is wrong, or stop people saying that someone isn't good enough for X content, then I'd be all for not having one at all.
Thing is though, removing the ability to track combat doesn't stop that kind of behavior at all.
It is possible to make an application that scans the screen for text. It is possible for that application to then log that text in a file. It is possible for Advanced Combat Tracker to then read that file. It is possible for all of this to be done in a way that couldn't be detect.
While it is possible that Intrepid could install an system that scans what other programs a computer is running (doing this will see their potential subscribers cut by around a half), it is even easier for the programs that are described above to have user defined program names. Intrepid could well look what you have running and see Firefox and Task Manager running - but Firefox and Task Manager may well be what you have defined as the names of the two programs above.
No developer of any game has ever had much success in dealing with any kind of third party program that doesn't directly interact with their games client - the best they can hope for is the occasional idiot streaming gameplay with it running, in which case they can ban that one player.
Your major issue with "DPS Meters" is that you have to read the class guide and boss guide.
Isn't that an issue with class guides and boss guides? I mean, both of them exist without DPS meters...
And as to your last point, as I and others have pointed out, people that will kick someone from a group for not being the spec they think you should be will still kick you out for not being the spec they think you should be. This kind of thing is also not in any way reliant of a combat tracker - if different abilities and augments have different animations and particle effects, some one at some point will tell you that you are spec'd wrong.
At least with a DPS meter, you have a tool to be able to show to them that you are not spec'd wrong - without one you have nothing.
If dungeon bosses are dps races then they are badly designed.
In the open world bad players cannot reach the areas that good players are farming or leveling. All players in those areas should be considered able.
I never liked dps meters. It forces players to select a specific weapon or class.
So what if a two handed sword warrior is dealing a bit less dps than a twin sword warrior? Without a dps meter nobody would ever notice the difference.
Also /join a guild....... dont pug
I expect it will be significantly reduced.
It should be easier to find and play with the people we like to play when we like to play because we will know where those people live.
And because we won’t be moving to other zones just because we’ve outleveled a zone.
It should be much easier to teach people how to react to other players’ weapon combos to get the most bang for the buck than it will be to rant about DPS.
It’s going to be more important to know how individuals are augmented than it will be to monitor combat trackers.
We shouldn’t need a tool to be able to adequately track combo combo, combo, ultimate - combo, combo, ultimate.
However, the kind of player that would kick someone out of a raid or group because they think that player isn't spec'd *right* are also the kind of player that think these things are accurate.
This thread seems to be bout stopping that kind of player being that kind of player, rather than being about the actual merits of any given tool. This is despite the fact that the above kind of player will be that kind of player regardless of what tools they do or do not have.
As to the rest of your post, a combat tracker is a useful tool within a single nights raiding. You don't need to use it to compare from one nights raid to another, or from one raid guild to another for it to be a useful tool.
DPS race bosses do have their place, but they need to be used sparingly. I am actually a huge fan of bosses where the difficulty slowly ramps up over the course of the fight. While not a strict DPS check with a hard enrage, these fights gradually build up the pressure on the dps who need to finish the fight before the healers run out of mana and everyone dies.
Absolutely.
There should be some group and raid mobs where the tank has to be 100% on their game or the group/raid will die. By definition, this would be a tank check.
There should be some group and raid mobs where the healers have to be 100% on their game or the group/raid will die. By definition, this would be a healer check.
There should be some group and raid mobs where the CC has to be 100% on their game or the group/raid will die. By definition, this would be a CC check.
There should be some group and raid mobs where the DPS has to be 100% on their game or the group/raid will die. By definition, this would be a DPS check.
I seriously hope no one even tries to argue with the above in any serious manner, though I'm sure any attempt would be entertaining.
So the 100% on point Tank Check would either be successful or not. You'll know with or without a tracker/meter. Because of the stipulation of being 100% on point a good player with the meta tank build could still fail, so what use is the meter?
Hopefully the 100% on point checks are more robust. Situations where the Tank/ Mage doesn't quite have to be at 100% but the Tank/Rogue would have to be and vice versa. Same with all the other augments.
I like the thought of these typea of encounters, but I am not sure why they would benefit from a Tracker/Meter.
Either way it seems like building a character (outside of looking builds up or being told what builds are good) is trial and error.
*edit
With programs (that maybe inaccurate) like Ask mister robot. Basically you look at some ones gear set up in game then transfer that information to website and it will tell you all their supposed mistakes.
So that is the real reason people are telling you about your set up.. They upload it to some website and bingo that player supposedly can tell you everything you are doing wrong as far as set up is concerned. Thing is I had a dps meter and knew that Mister Robot was very inaccurate. So all this people telling you what your build
should be are mistaken and think they are smart.
So really no dps meter basically makes those type of websites the authority on how you should run your set up cuase you do not have a good dps meter that helps you analyze data to show you the truth.
With tank checks, there is essentially only one point of failure. Either your tank was successful and so the encounter was killed, or your tank wasn't successful and so your raid failed.
This also applied to encounters in which CC is key (very few raids rely on multiple people CC'ing in such encounters, it usually goes badly).
Where combat trackers come in to use though (in terms of the above four encounters) is in the healer and DPS check encounters. A good combat tracker will be able to tell you if some of the heals your healers are casting are wasted and can help lead you and your raid towards better ways of working together.
With DPS checks, a combat tracker can tell the raid who it is in the raid that may need assistance in improving their DPS. It may be that you need to get your support classes working better, or it may be that someone on the raid needs some assistance/guidance with a build or spell rotation/priority.
At the end of the day though, if you have a raid of 40, with 8 of them being healers and 30 being DPS or DPS support, if your raid isn't passing a DPS check, then you have no way of knowing where the issue is unless you have a way of tracking combat.
Some people seem to have some fantasy that in games without combat trackers, every one can play what ever build they want and no one they group with will care or know if they are pulling their weight or not.
That isn't true.
If anything, in games with many possible builds, people are MORE willing to give you a shot if you have an out there build and they are able to see the numbers that build can produce.
Without a tracker, if people don't "get" what they can see of your build (class, weapon, armor, skill selection) they often just won't bring you along on content. This does force people in to some cookie cutter builds.
At least with a combat tracker, people are more willing to give you and your out there build a shot. Even if they don't think it will be as good as a more standard build, they are often simply intrigued to see just how well it does - something they can't see unless they have a combat tracker.
Yes, with a combat tracker there will be kids that kick you from groups if you don't pull the numbers they think you should. But then those same players will kick you from a group before you get to the content if they don't like your build and can't track you.
Additionally, with a tracker, you can actually work on your build to be more effective. It is a fair assumption to make that with all the abilities classes will have, and all the possible augments, if a player were to specify that they wanted to be an ice mage, they would have more ice spells available to them than they are able to select at any one time. Then those that wish to do so will be able to take their unique build that they wish to run, and actually put some effort in to it to make it as effective as they can so as to continue to pull their weight in groups. Without a tracker, all they could do is select random ice spells and hope they do OK
Even in a party of 8, aspects of the Tank role could be handled by several people in the party - especially when the players are at max level.
A party with a Tank/Rogue who seems to be struggling might get some back-up from the Rogue/Tank and the Mage/Tank.
Or, a seemingly weak Tank/Rogue might not be as much of an issue with a party that includes a Rogue/Cleric and a Mage/Cleric. That party might not need as much tanking as a party comprised of all "pure" archetypes.
We will see who's more on point when we actually play Ashes.
We aren't really talking about "games without trackers" - we're talking about Ashes of Creation.
Also, you are the one who is obsessed with the concept of "not pulling their weight".
You think that raiding in Ashes is going to be like raiding in other MMORPGs.
I don't think anyone has said players don't have to "pull their weight". What people have said is that there isn't just one way for a player to pull their weight - at least there shouldn't be. And if that's the case in an RPG, that's really an issue of poor game design.
Devs don't really design that way. Elitist players just think that way.
It's not really even about having many possible builds - it's about having more than one viable strategy to defeat bosses. Elitist players who just want the fastest, most efficient strategy as determined by combat tracker stats don't care if there are more than one viable strategy.
In Ashes, there won't be the same luxury to refuse to bring people along... because the bosses won't just be sitting around cleaning their claws month after month waiting for players to repeat their attacks on the instanced boss lair.
How and why people raid and dungeon delve is going to be very different in Ashes of Creation - due to the game's unique design.
Now before all you 5 year olds start screeching like banshees, yes I realize this would not be a perfect measurement because actual combat is way different that hitting a test dummy. There are builds in Division 2 that some people think are great because the DPS is high, but in actual use they are garbage setups.
EDIT: Forgot to mention this is just a dps example and nothing impressive in the link below
https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/crazywhiteguy99/video/76504584
when has that ever stopped modder
You have obviously never met a good modder lol. The smart ones use dummy accounts and usually hide their IP so they can't be banned permanently.
I think both sides of this issue have merits and the addition of a DPS/ACT would likely not effect me at all. Except for (maybe) making bad players better because they just min/max specs based on DPS/ACT. This would likely happen anyways though.
Having a meter tell you that you could do better is different than trying, failing, and wanting to do better. Although, in many cases, I can see a player wanting to try and fail and then using a meter to determine why. I am not a power gamer, a min/max builder, or someone that feels their character needs to be the best or in a certain percent of the best, so I will likely never fully understand the use of said meters.
How can Intrepid ban someone if they don't know that person is using an add on?
It's *REALLY* easy to make it impossible for for anyone else to ever see exactly what it is you are running on your computer.
Literally the only way Intrepid would even know specific add on exists is if someone streams themselves using it - at which point all they would know is that one person is using it, and they have no way of detecting if any other player is using it.
As I've said many times in this thread, add ons don't need to interact with the game client directly. If a program is running on your computer but not interacting with the games client, literally all Intrepid can ever do is pull the name the program is running under - though even that would see them lose many thousands of subscribers - and there are ways to alter the name a program is running under at will.
I've recently seen programs that pull from another games in game text as I've outlined above as being possible. They would take a small amount of work to get working in AoC, work that couldn't begin until we have a finalized UI, but it absolutely will happen if there is no other solution.
One again though, Intrepid can't ban players for using something that Intrepid can't see.
How well do you think a raid of 40 people just doing their own thing would compare to a raid of 40 people that are dedicated to working as a single unit towards a common goal?
Because that is what a raid is. You forgo your individual ambitions in order to further the progress of the whole. You sometimes do things that are not entirely enjoyable to you, because in doing that thing, you are furthering the progress of the hole, and you get more enjoyment out of progressing the whole than you get out of progressing the individual.
In return, you get to be a part of a group of 40 people that are also forging their own individual ambitions in order to further the whole.
It isn't about elitism at all, and those that think raiding is about elitism don't know raiding well at all.
Raiding is teamwork. Not everyone is cut out to be a part of a whole, rather than the focus of it, so not everyone is cut out to raid.
AoC will have challenging raid content. This is a given. When tackling this content, raids as a whole will decide on the best method for that specific raid. There may be other strategies, but that day, in that zone, against that encounter, on that pull, that raid is only using one - and so every member of that raid on that pull against that encounter in that zone on that day had better do what they are supposed to do otherwise they are wasting the time of the other 39 people present.
The interesting thing I've found with raiders is that they have more alts than most people would think. Not alts for raiding, as only guilds in games with overly easy combat systems ask raiders to have multiple raid ready characters - in the games I play, combat is too intricate for a player to be able to easily switch from one class to another and still be fully competent. Rather, the alts most raiders have are alts that they enjoy - it could be a race they really like, a class or build they wanted to try, a character on a different server or at a different level to play with a friend, or in some games I've played, characters locked at a specific level in order to be able to participate in nostalgic content at an appropriate level.
I bring this up to illustrate that while raiders forgo the individual ambition for the greater good, they only do that during the time in which they need to raid (and the time they need to spend becoming raid ready). Outside of raids, these players still run builds on characters just because they wanted to be an ice mage, they still play races just because they like them, they still craft because they enjoy making items - but then when it's time to raid, they set that down in order to become a small part of a greater whole.
That would be the worst outcome for all involved. It would be bad for the casual player, as there would be builds posted with them having no understanding of how someone even worked out how effective a given build is. It would be bad for the non casual player, as they would have to us what ever tools get developed or risk falling behind the curve. It would be bad for IS as they would hve to try and figure out a way to detect players using the tool, and fail miserably to do so.
Or even as one person doing their own thing rather than working as a unit.
I disagree that you forgo your individual ambitions in order to further the progress of the whole.
Rather you try to synchronize ambitions to further the progress of the whole. Sometimes doing things you don't entirely enjoy shouldn't need to include using abilities that are counter to the RP of the character you've built just to fit a cookie-cutter build or strategy as determined by meta tools that weren't implemented by the devs.
Helping progress an individual in the group can lead to enjoyment for the whole. I think you know that.
Also, helping an individual play their character the way they like in a manner that helps the whole can also bring enjoyment for the whole. Typical of RPGs in general, but gets easily lost in MMORPGs.
Hahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahahahahhaa.
Yeah...No. That is elitist thinking.
I get to be part of your group. hahaahahahahaahahahahahahaha
Thinking that someone gets to be a part of your group is the epitome of elitist thinking.
It's also the wrong focus. It's not about trying to be part of a group, rather it's about defeating the threats using the abilities of the character you've built. That's what RPGs are all about.
Raiding is teamwork. The notion that not everyone is cut out to raid is more elitist thinking.
Ashes will have challenging raid content. Since the devs are not supporting DPS meters, that means that challenging raid content can be defeated without DPS meters.
The only reason people want an ACT is because they cant figure out how to play without?
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
A script is easy to spot as it interacts with the game client.
An attempt to stop something that can easily be spotted and dealt with is not a reason to put or not put something in to the game. An attempt to stop something that would otherwise be inevitable and undetectable however, is a good reason to do so.
As to why someone would run a combat tracker; it's because actual good players - as opposed to those that just think they are good - know that they are the only way to squeeze out that last one or two percent. Without one you can think you are running a good build - with one you can know.
I am a good player, I know I am a good player, and I have never needed a meter to prove it to myself.
If you join a raid or guild, you don't get to be a part of my group, you get to be a part of our group.
That is how the real multiplayer part of MMO's work.
People that treat a group, raid or guild as "there's" don't ever do well.
If content is challenging for those without a combat tracker, it will not be challenging for those with a combat tracker - and there WILL be players with a combat tracker whether Intrepid know about it or not.
Although that is really beside the point because the word of emphasis is get - as if joining a group is supposed to be a privilege that people like you allow others.
FYI, there is way more to the multiplayer aspect of MMORPGs than just grouping.
I don't care whether or not content is challenging to people with a combat tracker.
In an MMO, any group, guild or raid you are in is by this very definition "our". The only time a group, guild or raid can ever be referred to as "your" is if you are not in it. If someone joins a group I am a part of, or if myself and someone else decide to form a group and invite others, it is as much my privilege as it is anyone else's.
That seems to be the thing you don't understand, in a group, raid or guild, everyone is equal. Yes there are leaders, but leaders are only there because everyone (generally) agrees they should do the leading. That doesn't make the group, raid or guild "theirs" though.
I don't know what kind of experiences you've had in the past to make you think this isn't the case.
Yes, but you also don't care about the top end raid content, so your opinion on the matter is akin to my opinion on achievements.
War waged on all sides, side discussions here and there. I love it!
(This post has probably the most comments of all newer threads btw)