XombieMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The ole Parcers questions
0
Options
Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@duebrithil That is somewhat true, however oftentimes the games themselves can contribute to the toxicity. League of Legends is known to have one of the most toxic communities of any game, and a lot of that is due to the nature of the genre. You are putting 5 complete strangers in a scenario where they have work closely together, and if even 1 person makes a mistake, the whole team suffers for it. This is a recipe for disaster and definitely contributes to the toxicity.
@duebrithil That is somewhat true, however oftentimes the games themselves can contribute to the toxicity. League of Legends is known to have one of the most toxic communities of any game, and a lot of that is due to the nature of the genre. You are putting 5 complete strangers in a scenario where they have work closely together, and if even 1 person makes a mistake, the whole team suffers for it. This is a recipe for disaster and definitely contributes to the toxicity.
Another statement I agree with.
Yet another statement I follow stating I agree with by then saying, however...
If I were creating a game where I wanted to exclude all toxicity, I wouldn't create a game where any player can attack another player in 90% of the games world.
I wouldn't create a game where players have to put their stuff in carts and travel slowly across the map in a manner where players can attack them and literally take their stuff, just so that players can get crafting ingredients to crafting stations.
I also probably wouldn't have an official forum for the game where players can use the words shit and fuck without issue.
Now, I have no issues with any of the above. However, I also know that some of the above will absolutely contribute to toxicity in the game - and I would imagine some of them would add more toxicity to the game than could ever erroneously be blamed on a combat tracker.
I have not and will not use it as an argument for why Ashes should have a combat tracker (I don't feel I need to, there is no longer any real reason to not have one). However, in my mind, the reason stated by Stephen is bogus, and I think he knows that it is as well. You can't state that you want to not put something like a combat tracker in the game in order to not introduce toxicity to a game where you are literally giving people license to hunt each other down for profit.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The devs have never stated they want to exclude all toxicity, AFAIK.
They have stated they want to minimize specific types of toxicity.
0
Options
Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@dygz and @noaani It is physically to remove all toxicity from a multiplayer game. But I still stand by my point that there are certain things that exacerbate the problems and contribute to a more toxic environment. I believe public dps meters are one of those mechanics, and when a game (from what I can tell right now) doesn't require dps meters, I see no need of putting them in.
I still stand by my point that there are certain things that exacerbate the problems and contribute to a more toxic environment. I believe public dps meters are one of those mechanics, and when a game (from what I can tell right now) doesn't require dps meters, I see no need of putting them in.
Again, I agree, I jut personally don't think a combat tracker is in even the top 10 list of things that could add toxicity in Ashes. Probably not even in the top 15.
If some players will make good use of it, I don't see why to exclude it based on that fact while ignoring everything above it.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@dygz and @noaani It is physically to remove all toxicity from a multiplayer game. But I still stand by my point that there are certain things that exacerbate the problems and contribute to a more toxic environment. I believe public dps meters are one of those mechanics, and when a game (from what I can tell right now) doesn't require dps meters, I see no need of putting them in.
It cannot be to physically remove all toxicity from multiplayer game because DPS meters are not the sole cause of all toxicity in multiplayer games. And the PvP mechanics in Ashes indicates that the devs are not trying to remove all toxicity from the game.
It's actually not even possible to remove all toxicity from a game because what constitutes toxicity is subjective.
I agree that DPS meters exacerbate toxicity, which is why I'm glad these devs share that view and are not supporting them. The reason to exclude the tool is for the greater good of the overall community. Just because there are a few players who won't abuse the tool doesn't mean that the tool shouldn't be banned.
Just because there are a few players who won't abuse the tool doesn't mean that the tool shouldn't be banned.
That is debatable at best.
What isn't debatable is what happened in GW2, and how much of a certainty it is that the same thing will happen in Ashes *if* the developers don't either allow the use of, or include some form of combat tracker in the game at release.
That is a reason why they shouldn't be banned.
0
Options
AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think add-ons should be banned regardless of what they offer.
I agree that 3rd party trackers should not be banned, mostly due to the points presented by @noaani.
Refusing to link toxic behavior to ACT/DPS meters is understandable. But then linking toxic behavior to not having ACT/DPS meters is kind of a single point perspective. There are for sure people that increase their natural toxicity both because a game does have ACT/DPS meters and because a game does not have an ACT/DPS meter.
There are likely many reasons why GW2 suffered from an increase in community toxicity levels along with all the other things mentioned in this thread. Picking one specific thing and saying a game would not have similar issues to GW2 if implemented is a stretch.
The games will be different. The players will be different. The mindsets should be different. There are so many other things that will differentiate the two games assuming Ashes will have the same issues as GW2 is, imo, odd.
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
0
Options
RockHoundMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I want a DPS mete that I can toggle on and off with a hotkey. Sometimes I want to track how I'm doing..
The problem with DPS meter is that some people get to focus on it and don't see what other people bring. Lets f.x. that the lowest dps'ing class in the game, is also the only class with a % buff do damage. The buff will do so the gap between that class and the highest dps'ing class, becomes even higher. Then take into consideration people who run around killing adds and doing other mecanics, like standing in circles and pressing things. Then there that interupt and/or cc. Then you have people who actualy avoide certain damage mecanics, like circles/aoe, which lowers their DPS. But others aren't good at that. I have been in a guild, where I saw someone talk about 2 people that were so focused on being top dps, that i think they just ignored everything else, which ended up whiping the raid.
Dps meters can be such a bad idea, because they get so focused on it, they lose focus on everything else
That is basically what has been discussed in this thread - people not knowing how to use a DPS meter properly (or people calling them a DPS meter, so only looking at DPS despite the fact that a DPS meter actually measures many things other than DPS).
Anyone with any sense of a brain will know to take other things in to consideration when looking at how valuable a player, a character, a class or a build are.
DPS is *ONLY* one factor, but it is a factor, and the only way to accurately assess that factor is via a combat tracker (DPS meter).
So you are left with either one of two situations; some people knowing how valuable a player, a character, a class or a build is because they used a combat tracker and took other things in to account, while others think they know because they used a meter but don't because they are not smart enough - or you have a situation where no one knows a damn thing because no one has a combat tracker.
0
Options
AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
"So you are left with either one of two situations; some people knowing how valuable a player, a character, a class or a build is because they used a combat tracker and took other things in to account, while others think they know because they used a meter but don't because they are not smart enough - or you have a situation where no one knows a damn thing because no one has a combat tracker."
It is these absolute statements that indicate players without DPS/ACT meters don't know how to build/play a character proper that make me happy IS is on the fence about having one. Perhaps DPS/ACT meters have been on the market for such a long time that some players are no longer capable of making decisions about character builds without them. The comment may have been slanted towards raids and guild leaders, but a common idea in this thread has been without a DPS/ACT players just can't be their best.
Some players obviously believe the only way an MMORPG can be played, where everyone understands how to properly play their class, is with a DPS/ACT meter. This indicates they assume without one that players have no idea what they are doing. Some players rely too heavily on tools that tell them how they need to build their character. For me, that removes a very crucial part of the RPG factor.
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
1
Options
Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
"So you are left with either one of two situations; some people knowing how valuable a player, a character, a class or a build is because they used a combat tracker and took other things in to account, while others think they know because they used a meter but don't because they are not smart enough - or you have a situation where no one knows a damn thing because no one has a combat tracker."
It is these absolute statements that indicate players without DPS/ACT meters don't know how to build/play a character proper that make me happy IS is on the fence about having one. Perhaps DPS/ACT meters have been on the market for such a long time that some players are no longer capable of making decisions about character builds without them. The comment may have been slanted towards raids and guild leaders, but a common idea in this thread has been without a DPS/ACT players just can't be their best.
Some players obviously believe the only way an MMORPG can be played, where everyone understands how to properly play their class, is with a DPS/ACT meter. This indicates they assume without one that players have no idea what they are doing. Some players rely too heavily on tools that tell them how they need to build their character. For me, that removes a very crucial part of the RPG factor.
This is a trap I have fallen into in the past - The need to use the absolute best build even when there is no need to. There are very few times where games are tuned so highly that you have to use the most optimal build in order to succeed.
Now, if you enjoy only using that absolute best build and the most optimal strategies I have nothing wrong with that. The problem is when players feel pressured into using the best build in order to be accepted in the community. This is why I stopped raiding in GW2, because I was forced to play classes and builds that I didn't really enjoy because it was the meta.
It is these absolute statements that indicate players without DPS/ACT meters don't know how to build/play a character proper that make me happy IS is on the fence about having one
Without a tracker, you don't know.
Without a tracker, you think.
Without a tracker, you guess.
Hell, without a tracker, you don't even know if the tooltips on abilities are accurate, in which case you can't even think or guess.
0
Options
Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It is these absolute statements that indicate players without DPS/ACT meters don't know how to build/play a character proper that make me happy IS is on the fence about having one
Without a tracker, you don't know.
Without a tracker, you think.
Without a tracker, you guess.
Hell, without a tracker, you don't even know if the tooltips on abilities are accurate, in which case you can't even think or guess.
True, but do you need to know? Do you need to see every formula, every line of code to enjoy the game?
" ...Perhaps DPS/ACT meters have been on the market for such a long time that some players are no longer capable of making decisions about character builds without them. ...
...Some players rely too heavily on tools that tell them how they need to build their character. For me, that removes a very crucial part of the RPG factor.
This is not just your own capability. It is also the openness of the community where you play. If they do not let you in to the raid with an exotic build, you can't do anything without ACT. (This happened in GW2) Actually the ACT is what 'allows' you to experiment with different builds, because nobody will see your build, they will see only the result. (more dps, less damage receive, longer cc period etc.)
True, but do you need to know? Do you need to see every formula, every line of code to enjoy the game?
If I am a mage, but the raid leader only let in warlock to the group, because according to the common acceptance is that the warlock does the best DPS, yes, I have to know the 'formula' to enjoy the game.
0
Options
Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
" ...Perhaps DPS/ACT meters have been on the market for such a long time that some players are no longer capable of making decisions about character builds without them. ...
...Some players rely too heavily on tools that tell them how they need to build their character. For me, that removes a very crucial part of the RPG factor.
This is not just your own capability. It is also the openness of the community where you play. If they do not let you in to the raid with an exotic build, you can't do anything without ACT. (This happened in GW2) Actually the ACT is what 'allows' you to experiment with different builds, because nobody will see your build, they will see only the result. (more dps, less damage receive, longer cc period etc.)
And that is exactly why I am against having a combat tracker in Ashes, especially if it isn't needed to complete the content.
True, but do you need to know? Do you need to see every formula, every line of code to enjoy the game?
If this community will be that open-minded and patient to play with everybody and be able to win (enough times) with everybody with every build. I would say I do not have to know anything, just play and enjoy it. But this is an utopia.
" ...Perhaps DPS/ACT meters have been on the market for such a long time that some players are no longer capable of making decisions about character builds without them. ...
...Some players rely too heavily on tools that tell them how they need to build their character. For me, that removes a very crucial part of the RPG factor.
This is not just your own capability. It is also the openness of the community where you play. If they do not let you in to the raid with an exotic build, you can't do anything without ACT. (This happened in GW2) Actually the ACT is what 'allows' you to experiment with different builds, because nobody will see your build, they will see only the result. (more dps, less damage receive, longer cc period etc.)
And that is exactly why I am against having a combat tracker in Ashes, especially if it isn't needed to complete the content.
Because you do not want to see exotic builds? Because you want 'class lock' in raids what are built on 'common acceptance'? (Strange view, but if you see that way, I am ok with it.)
It is these absolute statements that indicate players without DPS/ACT meters don't know how to build/play a character proper that make me happy IS is on the fence about having one
Without a tracker, you don't know.
Without a tracker, you think.
Without a tracker, you guess.
Hell, without a tracker, you don't even know if the tooltips on abilities are accurate, in which case you can't even think or guess.
True, but do you need to know? Do you need to see every formula, every line of code to enjoy the game?
Yes.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So you are left with either one of two situations; some people knowing how valuable a player, a character, a class or a build is because they used a combat tracker and took other things in to account, while others think they know because they used a meter but don't because they are not smart enough - or you have a situation where no one knows a damn thing because no one has a combat tracker.
Most likely, we will have the third option of most people knowing how valuable a player, a character a class or a build is because we can gauge that due to character and class designs without the need of combat trackers.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If I am a mage, but the raid leader only let in warlock to the group, because according to the common acceptance is that the warlock does the best DPS, yes, I have to know the 'formula' to enjoy the game.
Without a DPS meter, the raid leader shouldn't be able to determine whether Archwizard or Warlock does the best DPS. All of the sub-classes of Mage should be equally desirable in a raid.
Whether an Archwizard or Warlock does the best DPS should depend on the individual player and the individual character build, including class, racial and religious augments, in addition to potions and gear and weapon abilities.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It is these absolute statements that indicate players without DPS/ACT meters don't know how to build/play a character proper that make me happy IS is on the fence about having one
Without a tracker, you don't know.
Without a tracker, you think.
Without a tracker, you guess.
Hell, without a tracker, you don't even know if the tooltips on abilities are accurate, in which case you can't even think or guess.
We don't need combat trackers to know.
There are a variety of ways to determine which abilities do more damage or more healing or CC longer without relying on combat trackers. We don't necessarily need to know who does the most damage as an absolute - we just need to know that the damage we do or the healing we do is effective enough to beat the challenge(s).
Since combat trackers will change dynamically between sessions, it's all going to be guess work in any case.
0
Options
AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If I am a mage, but the raid leader only let in warlock to the group, because according to the common acceptance is that the warlock does the best DPS, yes, I have to know the 'formula' to enjoy the game.
Without a DPS meter, the raid leader shouldn't be able to determine whether Archwizard or Warlock does the best DPS. All of the sub-classes of Mage should be equally desirable in a raid.
Whether an Archwizard or Warlock does the best DPS should depend on the individual player and the individual character build, including class, racial and religious augments, in addition to potions and gear and weapon abilities.
That's an idealistic view at best. Game communities are very good at determining what builds work and which builds don't. There is very little chance that every possible build will be balanced, there will always be outliers on both ends of the spectrum. Theory crafters will find these outliers and create guides and overviews for the class. The outliers on the high end of the spectrum will become metas, and without some in game way of verifying or proving that other build provide enough benefit to be worth bringing along they may be left out. As with many points in this thread this likely won't effect the highest raiding guilds since they tend to attract people that do their own theory crafting and could justify the effects of a hybrid build that brings additional utility. This would mostly effect medium tier raiding guilds and pugs that rely on the theory crafting of others to determine how to play the game and how to build their class.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I didn't say all builds should be equally desirable. I said all of a primary archetype's subclasses should be equally desirable. That's the whole point of having a primary archetype.
0
Options
AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Idk, I am still in the camp that does not care rather or not IS adds a tracker. Luckily, I don't require one to build awesome characters and I hopefully I won't ever need to play with anyone that needs to know my build.
However, I do feel like the reasons people really want them (and the reasons people don't) fall completely into the realm of paranoia and the desire to be accepted by the community.
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Regardless...
We will have to wait for launch and see what happens.
So you are left with either one of two situations; some people knowing how valuable a player, a character, a class or a build is because they used a combat tracker and took other things in to account, while others think they know because they used a meter but don't because they are not smart enough - or you have a situation where no one knows a damn thing because no one has a combat tracker.
Most likely, we will have the third option of most people knowing how valuable a player, a character a class or a build is because we can gauge that due to character and class designs without the need of combat trackers.
It is not possible to gauge how good player number 26 in a raid of 40 is without a combat tracker.
If you think it is, you clearly don't know what you are saying.
You can gauge how good the raid over all is by whether the raid is dying or the content is dying, but the idea is to deal with issues before they cause raid wipes.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It is possible. You think it’s not because you rely on the combat trackers too much.
You act like raids can’t be completed without combat trackers.
Wipes happen. That’s part of the game. If you wipe too often without combat trackers maybe you aren’t as top end as you think. You have to cheat to win.
Comments
Another statement I agree with.
Yet another statement I follow stating I agree with by then saying, however...
If I were creating a game where I wanted to exclude all toxicity, I wouldn't create a game where any player can attack another player in 90% of the games world.
I wouldn't create a game where players have to put their stuff in carts and travel slowly across the map in a manner where players can attack them and literally take their stuff, just so that players can get crafting ingredients to crafting stations.
I also probably wouldn't have an official forum for the game where players can use the words shit and fuck without issue.
Now, I have no issues with any of the above. However, I also know that some of the above will absolutely contribute to toxicity in the game - and I would imagine some of them would add more toxicity to the game than could ever erroneously be blamed on a combat tracker.
I have not and will not use it as an argument for why Ashes should have a combat tracker (I don't feel I need to, there is no longer any real reason to not have one). However, in my mind, the reason stated by Stephen is bogus, and I think he knows that it is as well. You can't state that you want to not put something like a combat tracker in the game in order to not introduce toxicity to a game where you are literally giving people license to hunt each other down for profit.
They have stated they want to minimize specific types of toxicity.
If some players will make good use of it, I don't see why to exclude it based on that fact while ignoring everything above it.
It's actually not even possible to remove all toxicity from a game because what constitutes toxicity is subjective.
I agree that DPS meters exacerbate toxicity, which is why I'm glad these devs share that view and are not supporting them. The reason to exclude the tool is for the greater good of the overall community. Just because there are a few players who won't abuse the tool doesn't mean that the tool shouldn't be banned.
What isn't debatable is what happened in GW2, and how much of a certainty it is that the same thing will happen in Ashes *if* the developers don't either allow the use of, or include some form of combat tracker in the game at release.
That is a reason why they shouldn't be banned.
I agree that 3rd party trackers should not be banned, mostly due to the points presented by @noaani.
Refusing to link toxic behavior to ACT/DPS meters is understandable. But then linking toxic behavior to not having ACT/DPS meters is kind of a single point perspective. There are for sure people that increase their natural toxicity both because a game does have ACT/DPS meters and because a game does not have an ACT/DPS meter.
There are likely many reasons why GW2 suffered from an increase in community toxicity levels along with all the other things mentioned in this thread. Picking one specific thing and saying a game would not have similar issues to GW2 if implemented is a stretch.
The games will be different. The players will be different. The mindsets should be different. There are so many other things that will differentiate the two games assuming Ashes will have the same issues as GW2 is, imo, odd.
Dps meters can be such a bad idea, because they get so focused on it, they lose focus on everything else
That is basically what has been discussed in this thread - people not knowing how to use a DPS meter properly (or people calling them a DPS meter, so only looking at DPS despite the fact that a DPS meter actually measures many things other than DPS).
Anyone with any sense of a brain will know to take other things in to consideration when looking at how valuable a player, a character, a class or a build are.
DPS is *ONLY* one factor, but it is a factor, and the only way to accurately assess that factor is via a combat tracker (DPS meter).
So you are left with either one of two situations; some people knowing how valuable a player, a character, a class or a build is because they used a combat tracker and took other things in to account, while others think they know because they used a meter but don't because they are not smart enough - or you have a situation where no one knows a damn thing because no one has a combat tracker.
It is these absolute statements that indicate players without DPS/ACT meters don't know how to build/play a character proper that make me happy IS is on the fence about having one. Perhaps DPS/ACT meters have been on the market for such a long time that some players are no longer capable of making decisions about character builds without them. The comment may have been slanted towards raids and guild leaders, but a common idea in this thread has been without a DPS/ACT players just can't be their best.
Some players obviously believe the only way an MMORPG can be played, where everyone understands how to properly play their class, is with a DPS/ACT meter. This indicates they assume without one that players have no idea what they are doing. Some players rely too heavily on tools that tell them how they need to build their character. For me, that removes a very crucial part of the RPG factor.
This is a trap I have fallen into in the past - The need to use the absolute best build even when there is no need to. There are very few times where games are tuned so highly that you have to use the most optimal build in order to succeed.
Now, if you enjoy only using that absolute best build and the most optimal strategies I have nothing wrong with that. The problem is when players feel pressured into using the best build in order to be accepted in the community. This is why I stopped raiding in GW2, because I was forced to play classes and builds that I didn't really enjoy because it was the meta.
Without a tracker, you think.
Without a tracker, you guess.
Hell, without a tracker, you don't even know if the tooltips on abilities are accurate, in which case you can't even think or guess.
True, but do you need to know? Do you need to see every formula, every line of code to enjoy the game?
This is not just your own capability. It is also the openness of the community where you play. If they do not let you in to the raid with an exotic build, you can't do anything without ACT. (This happened in GW2) Actually the ACT is what 'allows' you to experiment with different builds, because nobody will see your build, they will see only the result. (more dps, less damage receive, longer cc period etc.)
If I am a mage, but the raid leader only let in warlock to the group, because according to the common acceptance is that the warlock does the best DPS, yes, I have to know the 'formula' to enjoy the game.
And that is exactly why I am against having a combat tracker in Ashes, especially if it isn't needed to complete the content.
If this community will be that open-minded and patient to play with everybody and be able to win (enough times) with everybody with every build. I would say I do not have to know anything, just play and enjoy it. But this is an utopia.
Because you do not want to see exotic builds? Because you want 'class lock' in raids what are built on 'common acceptance'? (Strange view, but if you see that way, I am ok with it.)
Whether an Archwizard or Warlock does the best DPS should depend on the individual player and the individual character build, including class, racial and religious augments, in addition to potions and gear and weapon abilities.
There are a variety of ways to determine which abilities do more damage or more healing or CC longer without relying on combat trackers. We don't necessarily need to know who does the most damage as an absolute - we just need to know that the damage we do or the healing we do is effective enough to beat the challenge(s).
Since combat trackers will change dynamically between sessions, it's all going to be guess work in any case.
That's an idealistic view at best. Game communities are very good at determining what builds work and which builds don't. There is very little chance that every possible build will be balanced, there will always be outliers on both ends of the spectrum. Theory crafters will find these outliers and create guides and overviews for the class. The outliers on the high end of the spectrum will become metas, and without some in game way of verifying or proving that other build provide enough benefit to be worth bringing along they may be left out. As with many points in this thread this likely won't effect the highest raiding guilds since they tend to attract people that do their own theory crafting and could justify the effects of a hybrid build that brings additional utility. This would mostly effect medium tier raiding guilds and pugs that rely on the theory crafting of others to determine how to play the game and how to build their class.
However, I do feel like the reasons people really want them (and the reasons people don't) fall completely into the realm of paranoia and the desire to be accepted by the community.
We will have to wait for launch and see what happens.
It is not possible to gauge how good player number 26 in a raid of 40 is without a combat tracker.
If you think it is, you clearly don't know what you are saying.
You can gauge how good the raid over all is by whether the raid is dying or the content is dying, but the idea is to deal with issues before they cause raid wipes.
You act like raids can’t be completed without combat trackers.
Wipes happen. That’s part of the game. If you wipe too often without combat trackers maybe you aren’t as top end as you think. You have to cheat to win.