If community voted to go with old school/ancient school like Lineage 1(won't show mob HP and stats and don't know how much damage dealt to mob) I will say don't do any tools that modern mmorpg have even combat tracker, and please don't show how much mob deal to player too means player won't even know how much HP character have, yes please DO NOT show any number or % to player only the player character HP can be graphical without any number or %.
The problem is, we also know we will have a combat log.
If we have a combat log, all of that information is available to anyone that wants to look. At this point, literally all a combat tracker does is speed this process up some. It also makes it impossible for Intrepid Intrepid stop people using third party trackers.
On the other hand, if Intrepid implemented them in to the game client, they are the ones that decide what features players get. They could - for example - make it so you dont get any information until combat has finished.
Additionally, the reason players voted to not show too much information doesnt actually have anything to do with trackers, and likely wo t be affected by them at all either.
The reason was so that you cant easily bring a player to near death and leave then to be killed by a mob, preventing a corruption penalty. If you dont know how much HP a player has left, you cant easily do this.
Adding combat trackers isnt going to suddenly make this possible.
Uh… I’m not sure if I use the right words, this is so contradictory.
At the beginning this mega thread was discuss about dps meter kind of tool bring toxic behaviors and I think Steven don’t want dps meter and think it have negative effect to player’s behavior(at least when I check this thread last time and please forgive me being a casual follower.), at that time I don’t know they will do the combat log but now I know that, it makes me feel the decisions are so contradictory, I mean don’t you guys think there will be some players look their own combat log and do calculates try to figure out what build able to do how much dps under what situations and then those toxic players still able to do what they’d like to do? So what’s the point of those decisions about no dps meter no addons trackers or not trackers? Those toxic behaviors like you mentioned that using mob to kill dying player don’t even rely on any tracker, if monster behavior more like old school mmo like Lineage 1 you will see players pulling monster train to kill other players or invading towns everyday so to prevent this kind of things no we are going to make monster can’t be pulled away from their roaming zone? I mean isn’t that how mmos become so bad today because game developers so over thinking that players can’t handle these situations thinking that if want to attract more players the game needs to be friendly like the game holding players like holding own baby? I think no matter what reasons you guys stand for to vote going old school/ancient school you won’t get what you want.
My English is bad I don’t know if my understanding is correct or not, if the thing is Intrepid still have this contradictory thinking and community is still dance with it, I thinks this is bad. I said this before toxic players don’t care about there are tools or not they will get what they want no matter what in my opinion and experiences but obviously Steven and lots of players don’t think so.
Your understanding is correct.
Some people in this thread also believe that this is contradictory thinking, and others believe that parsers, trackers, and meters, lead to toxic behaviour.
Thanks for your reply. : )
To me no matter which way Intrepid choose to go with either way can make a good game I mean every way has it own pros and cons, but the reason and the mentality behind the decision is very important, I really hope Intrepid can figure it out and make a good game.
By the way I prefer low learning price and entry but hard to master kind of game design overall, because I believe most players don't like that they need to do research etc while playing a game or in order to being good at a game right at the beginning.
The point is the small amount of people here and the toxic issue is about allowing people to track other people and what they do and gate keep. So they can watch you and start being toxic towards you if they don't agree with your play style or feel you are effective enough based on what they can see number wise even if that doesn't paint a full picture.
If community voted to go with old school/ancient school like Lineage 1(won't show mob HP and stats and don't know how much damage dealt to mob) I will say don't do any tools that modern mmorpg have even combat tracker, and please don't show how much mob deal to player too means player won't even know how much HP character have, yes please DO NOT show any number or % to player only the player character HP can be graphical without any number or %.
The problem is, we also know we will have a combat log.
If we have a combat log, all of that information is available to anyone that wants to look. At this point, literally all a combat tracker does is speed this process up some. It also makes it impossible for Intrepid Intrepid stop people using third party trackers.
On the other hand, if Intrepid implemented them in to the game client, they are the ones that decide what features players get. They could - for example - make it so you dont get any information until combat has finished.
Additionally, the reason players voted to not show too much information doesnt actually have anything to do with trackers, and likely wo t be affected by them at all either.
The reason was so that you cant easily bring a player to near death and leave then to be killed by a mob, preventing a corruption penalty. If you dont know how much HP a player has left, you cant easily do this.
Adding combat trackers isnt going to suddenly make this possible.
Uh… I’m not sure if I use the right words, this is so contradictory.
At the beginning this mega thread was discuss about dps meter kind of tool bring toxic behaviors and I think Steven don’t want dps meter and think it have negative effect to player’s behavior(at least when I check this thread last time and please forgive me being a casual follower.), at that time I don’t know they will do the combat log but now I know that, it makes me feel the decisions are so contradictory, I mean don’t you guys think there will be some players look their own combat log and do calculates try to figure out what build able to do how much dps under what situations and then those toxic players still able to do what they’d like to do? So what’s the point of those decisions about no dps meter no addons trackers or not trackers? Those toxic behaviors like you mentioned that using mob to kill dying player don’t even rely on any tracker, if monster behavior more like old school mmo like Lineage 1 you will see players pulling monster train to kill other players or invading towns everyday so to prevent this kind of things no we are going to make monster can’t be pulled away from their roaming zone? I mean isn’t that how mmos become so bad today because game developers so over thinking that players can’t handle these situations thinking that if want to attract more players the game needs to be friendly like the game holding players like holding own baby? I think no matter what reasons you guys stand for to vote going old school/ancient school you won’t get what you want.
My English is bad I don’t know if my understanding is correct or not, if the thing is Intrepid still have this contradictory thinking and community is still dance with it, I thinks this is bad. I said this before toxic players don’t care about there are tools or not they will get what they want no matter what in my opinion and experiences but obviously Steven and lots of players don’t think so.
Your understanding is correct.
Some people in this thread also believe that this is contradictory thinking, and others believe that parsers, trackers, and meters, lead to toxic behaviour.
Thanks for your reply. : )
To me no matter which way Intrepid choose to go with either way can make a good game I mean every way has it own pros and cons, but the reason and the mentality behind the decision is very important, I really hope Intrepid can figure it out and make a good game.
By the way I prefer low learning price and entry but hard to master kind of game design overall, because I believe most players don't like that they need to do research etc while playing a game or in order to being good at a game right at the beginning.
The point is the small amount of people here and the toxic issue is about allowing people to track other people and what they do and gate keep. So they can watch you and start being toxic towards you if they don't agree with your play style or feel you are effective enough based on what they can see number wise even if that doesn't paint a full picture.
Yeah, I aware that and I still think the same, according what I read in few pages of recently discussion, almost every toxic behavior mentioned in this thread I already saw from Lineage 1 to now which means almost every mmo I played can see same toxic things no matter there are tools or not limited or not, to me it should be focused on what can we do to heavily punish that kind of behavior as it should be punished and as efficient as possible(for example if one player was found continue doing toxic behavior and not willing to stop I will say just delete the account and I'd love to pay another 5 USD month fee to support Intrepid if they do it, or make it optional like a VIP upgrade that when I report a player being toxic to me Intrepid will investigate my case as fast as they can and if it's true they will stop/delete that player's account but charge me another 5 USD month fee I'll definitely upgrade my account.) in stead of do things to prevent it happen efficiently(this prevent things to happen way may able to stop some toxic at some degree, but potentially damaging the game at the same time in my opinion.), the thing is those people so deeply trapped in the toxic issues seems don't aware some ideas they propose potentially driving a lot of player base away and that's the problem.
The point is the small amount of people here and the toxic issue is about allowing people to track other people and what they do and gate keep. So they can watch you and start being toxic towards you if they don't agree with your play style or feel you are effective enough based on what they can see number wise even if that doesn't paint a full picture.
First, I thought we had pointed out to you that attempting to use the argument of the number of people posting in this thread is futile.
Second, everyone arguing the point has so far completely neglected to connect combat to toxicity. They have kind of just said that there is a causal effect, but had no reasoning at all to back that up.
Third, gatekeeping isnt negatively affected by combat trackers, it is affected by player competency. If you are a shit player and your guild can not see that, you are preventing your whole guild from accessing content. If they see you are shit and then boot you from the group or raid and carry on without you, then the combat tracker actually opens up more content to more people - just not those that were holding others back.
The simple fact is, if players joining groups or raids take the obligation they have towards the others in their group or raid seriously, there is simply no scope at all for toxicity or gatekeeping to even theoretically occur. It is literally only possible if someone isnt taking their obligation towards others seriously.
The point is the small amount of people here and the toxic issue is about allowing people to track other people and what they do and gate keep. So they can watch you and start being toxic towards you if they don't agree with your play style or feel you are effective enough based on what they can see number wise even if that doesn't paint a full picture.
First, I thought we had pointed out to you that attempting to use the argument of the number of people posting in this thread is futile.
Second, everyone arguing the point has so far completely neglected to connect combat to toxicity. They have kind of just said that there is a causal effect, but had no reasoning at all to back that up.
Third, gatekeeping isnt negatively affected by combat trackers, it is affected by player competency. If you are a shit player and your guild can not see that, you are preventing your whole guild from accessing content. If they see you are shit and then boot you from the group or raid and carry on without you, then the combat tracker actually opens up more content to more people - just not those that were holding others back.
The simple fact is, if players joining groups or raids take the obligation they have towards the others in their group or raid seriously, there is simply no scope at all for toxicity or gatekeeping to even theoretically occur. It is literally only possible if someone isnt taking their obligation towards others seriously.
Its toxic and everyone knows it, honestly doesn't matter if you don't want to believe that because it doesn't fit what you want to get out of using a meter and viewing all people in your party.
You've already proved my point anyway in mentality saying you will use meters no matter what developers want and the TOS says. Toxic mentality does not change from some of the people that will use meters and want content to be created around it as well. Though i highly doubt you will ever leave your bubble and understand how toxic they are.
Its toxic and everyone knows it, honestly doesn't matter if you don't want to believe that because it doesn't fit what you want to get out of using a meter and viewing all people in your party.
I mean, there have been dozens of people post in this thread alone that the notion that a combat tracker being thought of as toxic is just outright incorrect - so no, not everyone knows it.
Also, since games exist with combat trackers and communities that are very low in toxicity, it is easily demonstrable that the statement "trackers cause toxicity" is false.
These are things you - and everyone else - just ignore. You basically close your eyes and cover tour ears in order to ignore actual evidence, and just repeatedly tell "everyone knows trackers cause toxicity", while sitting with your legs crossed, rocking back and forward.
Its toxic and everyone knows it, honestly doesn't matter if you don't want to believe that because it doesn't fit what you want to get out of using a meter and viewing all people in your party.
I mean, there have been dozens of people post in this thread alone that the notion that a combat tracker being thought of as toxic is just outright incorrect - so no, not everyone knows it.
Also, since games exist with combat trackers and communities that are very low in toxicity, it is easily demonstrable that the statement "trackers cause toxicity" is false.
These are things you - and everyone else - just ignore. You basically close your eyes and cover tour ears in order to ignore actual evidence, and just repeatedly tell "everyone knows trackers cause toxicity", while sitting with your legs crossed, rocking back and forward.
Lets say there is dozens of people, that doesn't come close to over 100 people against it. You are living in your own fantasy land really. The general thought is most people think is it only leads to added toxic behavior.
You are in a extreme minority of people that want to start tracking DPS of group members, and minority of trackers as a whole.
Then we can take a step further and ask people if they want to support a mmorpg that logs all their stats and people can view how they play during content online. And ask them if they are fine if people remove them if their stats online aren't good enough for them. We will see real fast how many people are against it, you are in the less than 1%. People that go on forums are general more dedicated or hardcore type people, and the fact you have a minority here screams plenty. There isn't a more bias place (besides personal discords of course) that you could have something like this lean in your favor based on player types and it still isn't in your deck of cards.
And your argument is they can't stop me, there isn't a more toxic line than that.
Its toxic and everyone knows it, honestly doesn't matter if you don't want to believe that because it doesn't fit what you want to get out of using a meter and viewing all people in your party.
I mean, there have been dozens of people post in this thread alone that the notion that a combat tracker being thought of as toxic is just outright incorrect - so no, not everyone knows it.
Also, since games exist with combat trackers and communities that are very low in toxicity, it is easily demonstrable that the statement "trackers cause toxicity" is false.
These are things you - and everyone else - just ignore. You basically close your eyes and cover tour ears in order to ignore actual evidence, and just repeatedly tell "everyone knows trackers cause toxicity", while sitting with your legs crossed, rocking back and forward.
Lets say there is dozens of people, that doesn't come close to over 100 people against it. You are living in your own fantasy land really. The general thought is most people think is it only leads to added toxic behavior.
You are in a extreme minority of people that want to start tracking DPS of group members, and minority of trackers as a whole.
You seem to forget, most of the people against trackers are all for guild only trackers.
There are, in fact, only about a half dozen people that have actually engaged in this discussion and are still against them. The bulk of those that were initially against then other posted once and were not heard from again, or engaged in discussion and agreed that a guild based tracker was the best option.
The other thing you seem to be blatantly ignoring is the fact that no tracker is straight up not an option. It's either trackers as per basically every other MMO that you have played, or Intrepud building it in to the game client.
They are the two options available to us here. The ONLY two options.
Its toxic and everyone knows it, honestly doesn't matter if you don't want to believe that because it doesn't fit what you want to get out of using a meter and viewing all people in your party.
I mean, there have been dozens of people post in this thread alone that the notion that a combat tracker being thought of as toxic is just outright incorrect - so no, not everyone knows it.
Also, since games exist with combat trackers and communities that are very low in toxicity, it is easily demonstrable that the statement "trackers cause toxicity" is false.
These are things you - and everyone else - just ignore. You basically close your eyes and cover tour ears in order to ignore actual evidence, and just repeatedly tell "everyone knows trackers cause toxicity", while sitting with your legs crossed, rocking back and forward.
Lets say there is dozens of people, that doesn't come close to over 100 people against it. You are living in your own fantasy land really. The general thought is most people think is it only leads to added toxic behavior.
You are in a extreme minority of people that want to start tracking DPS of group members, and minority of trackers as a whole.
You seem to forget, most of the people against trackers are all for guild only trackers.
There are, in fact, only about a half dozen people that have actually engaged in this discussion and are still against them. The bulk of those that were initially against then other posted once and were not heard from again, or engaged in discussion and agreed that a guild based tracker was the best option.
The other thing you seem to be blatantly ignoring is the fact that no tracker is straight up not an option. It's either trackers as per basically every other MMO that you have played, or Intrepud building it in to the game client.
They are the two options available to us here. The ONLY two options.
In your mind you like to think that because you refuse to accept you are in the wrong. People are against them period, does it mean they won't play the game or they can deal with some aspect if there is no hope. Being ok with something doesn't mean its ideally with what they want everyone makes sacrifices.
But you don't care what they want, you only care about what you want and trying to comment and use peoples leeway to your advantage while having none yourself. Which that isn't even the case here with half the people being for guild trackers, forums are a 1% of players if that. Most people do not want trackers, do not understand them or use them, or would not want them if they understood certain elements in a larger bulk than people that would want them.
You can keep making things up in your head to convince yourself but again you are the extreme minority, people do not agree with what you want out of them and their bias is against trackers.
Arguments you create saying people will force trackers is not a argument for trackers. Stop trying to use that line to get people to give up what they ideally want. If people used that logic for everything in life it be stupid, like saying there are too many weapons so its too late to manage them for people.
The other thing you seem to be blatantly ignoring is the fact that no tracker is straight up not an option. It's either trackers as per basically every other MMO that you have played, or Intrepid building it in to the game client.
They are the two options available to us here. The ONLY two options.
Eh, those are the only 2 for you I bet a ton of people will never care to even look them up if Intrepid don't add them to the game. And even if Intrepid do add them, some people will completely ignore them.
But if you were talking purely about the top 1% of pve players, then maaaybe those are the only 2. I feel like there'll still be some people up there who won't use them.
The other thing you seem to be blatantly ignoring is the fact that no tracker is straight up not an option. It's either trackers as per basically every other MMO that you have played, or Intrepid building it in to the game client.
They are the two options available to us here. The ONLY two options.
Eh, those are the only 2 for you I bet a ton of people will never care to even look them up if Intrepid don't add them to the game. And even if Intrepid do add them, some people will completely ignore them.
But if you were talking purely about the top 1% of pve players, then maaaybe those are the only 2. I feel like there'll still be some people up there who won't use them.
What number of 'downloads per person' is required to make your point real?
It doesn't matter how you twist it, people can be downloading it multiple times for whatever the reason. Trying to flex a number based on downloads is pointless information.
What number of 'downloads per person' is required to make your point real?
It doesn't matter how you twist it, people can be downloading it multiple times for whatever the reason. Trying to flex a number based on downloads is pointless information.
I suppose if you're wrong once, you must be willing to be wrong 1000 times. NiKr can decide if it is pointless information or not, I guess.
Does the counter count all downloads throughout the lifetime of the pluggin or unique downloads per each version? And on the off chance that it is unique per version, how many people are playing ff14 then?
I'm not dismissing the possibility that literally 18kk people decided to see their fight stats, but I somehow find it hard to believe that this many people care about it that much, especially in a game like FF14.
Does the counter count all downloads throughout the lifetime of the pluggin or unique downloads per each version? And on the off chance that it is unique per version, how many people are playing ff14 then?
I'm not dismissing the possibility that literally 18kk people decided to see their fight stats, but I somehow find it hard to believe that this many people care about it that much, especially in a game like FF14.
Would you prefer the numbers from Monster Hunter World? (PC only probably because of the way it works, you wouldn't use it on Console.)
Unique DLs
160,155
Total DLs
234,390
Here you are.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
What number of 'downloads per person' is required to make your point real?
It doesn't matter how you twist it, people can be downloading it multiple times for whatever the reason. Trying to flex a number based on downloads is pointless information.
I suppose if you're wrong once, you must be willing to be wrong 1000 times. NiKr can decide if it is pointless information or not, I guess.
Nice try trying to get away with throwing pointless information that has nothing to do with what people want or how they feel. On top of with download numbers, that is the definition of fake news with people reaching. I can see the point is ignore what people want and the to force it into the game and get people to use it and spread it, it is clear as day.
What number of 'downloads per person' is required to make your point real?
It doesn't matter how you twist it, people can be downloading it multiple times for whatever the reason. Trying to flex a number based on downloads is pointless information.
I suppose if you're wrong once, you must be willing to be wrong 1000 times. NiKr can decide if it is pointless information or not, I guess.
Nice try trying to get away with throwing pointless information that has nothing to do with what people want or how they feel. On top of with download numbers, that is the definition of fake news with people reaching. I can see the point is ignore what people want and the to force it into the game and get people to use it and spread it, it is clear as day.
Yes, I understand that your feelings are very important, and so is the reality they create.
I was addressing someone else's reality. There is no further need to defend yours.
Does the counter count all downloads throughout the lifetime of the pluggin or unique downloads per each version? And on the off chance that it is unique per version, how many people are playing ff14 then?
I'm not dismissing the possibility that literally 18kk people decided to see their fight stats, but I somehow find it hard to believe that this many people care about it that much, especially in a game like FF14.
Would you prefer the numbers from Monster Hunter World? (PC only probably because of the way it works, you wouldn't use it on Console.)
Unique DLs
160,155
Total DLs
234,390
Here you are.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
So you are using a DL number to try to say gauge people using it and then you use MH as your example. You can't make this up how lost are you. Honestly at this point I'm questioning your information it seems disingenuous at best. Are we going to bring in call of duty numbers next?
Does the counter count all downloads throughout the lifetime of the pluggin or unique downloads per each version? And on the off chance that it is unique per version, how many people are playing ff14 then?
I'm not dismissing the possibility that literally 18kk people decided to see their fight stats, but I somehow find it hard to believe that this many people care about it that much, especially in a game like FF14.
Would you prefer the numbers from Monster Hunter World? (PC only probably because of the way it works, you wouldn't use it on Console.)
Unique DLs
160,155
Total DLs
234,390
Here you are.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
So you are using a DL number to try to say gauge people using it and then you use MH as your example. You can't make this up how lost are you. Honestly at this point I'm questioning your information it seems disingenuous at best. Are we going to bring in call of duty numbers next?
Would you like to use those? I would figure they were unnecessary, doesn't CoD have its own ingame tracker that reports at end of match? I suppose there may be some people out there who want more specific realtime tracking and have their own custom scripts?
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
I mean, I didn't say that none were interested in it. Just that a ton of people wouldn't care for it. I could easily see a million players throughout ff14's lifetime redownloading that plugging 18 times. But that 1mil would be out of potential dozens of millions in that same time period. Yes, obviously people will care about their dps and deep combat log, but that still doesn't deny the fact that the majority wouldn't care (I mean, potentially).
That 160k of MHW is roughly half of its players on steam. And MHW is a game build around complex pve afaik, so it'd make sense that more people would be interested in maximizing their output. But ff14 is mainly about their story, with a ton of other sources of entertainment in the game too. And AoC will be about a ton of pvp, artisan stuff and definitely some pve too, but if a few sources of pve will be beatable by just <10% (allegedly), I'd assume that around 20 maaaybe 30% would be at all interested in even trying. At which point probably the majority of them would need a tracker (though this still depends on the boss design).
In other words, yes, obviously there'll be people who only have 2 options, just like Noaani, but I highly doubt they'd be the majority. But at that point we're just back to the "do Intrepid want FF14's situation" question. Cause as you pointed out, even with ff14's attitude towards meters/addons, that pluggin still has 18kk downloads, even if they might've come from just a mil or two of people.
Does the counter count all downloads throughout the lifetime of the pluggin or unique downloads per each version? And on the off chance that it is unique per version, how many people are playing ff14 then?
I'm not dismissing the possibility that literally 18kk people decided to see their fight stats, but I somehow find it hard to believe that this many people care about it that much, especially in a game like FF14.
Would you prefer the numbers from Monster Hunter World? (PC only probably because of the way it works, you wouldn't use it on Console.)
Unique DLs
160,155
Total DLs
234,390
Here you are.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
So you are using a DL number to try to say gauge people using it and then you use MH as your example. You can't make this up how lost are you. Honestly at this point I'm questioning your information it seems disingenuous at best. Are we going to bring in call of duty numbers next?
Would you like to use those? I would figure they were unnecessary, doesn't CoD have its own ingame tracker that reports at end of match? I suppose there may be some people out there who want more specific realtime tracking and have their own custom scripts?
I can look on GitHub if you like.
You know the point you are simply trying to muddy the water. Debating on download numbers is the most pointless thing and doesn't speak much of anything. If it was a subscription type service and that pointed out people actually using it with direct numbers that would be more understandable. Regardless of the case someone can download it and not agree with wanting them or feel they are toxic and will prefer games without them or a focus on them.
Your points just boil down to they can't stop us we will d what we want and eventually able to do it in the open once we get enough people and we don't care what the TOS says. That is toxic in itself, and a clear direction on the mind set of some people that will use trackers for toxic behavior. The fact one of you made a point you have never seen toxic behavior while everyone else says they have seen it is already a red flag. Which shows there is most likely multiple levels of bias at hand layered on top of each other.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
I mean, I didn't say that none were interested in it. Just that a ton of people wouldn't care for it. I could easily see a million players throughout ff14's lifetime redownloading that plugging 18 times. But that 1mil would be out of potential dozens of millions in that same time period. Yes, obviously people will care about their dps and deep combat log, but that still doesn't deny the fact that the majority wouldn't care (I mean, potentially).
That 160k of MHW is roughly half of its players on steam. And MHW is a game build around complex pve afaik, so it'd make sense that more people would be interested in maximizing their output. But ff14 is mainly about their story, with a ton of other sources of entertainment in the game too. And AoC will be about a ton of pvp, artisan stuff and definitely some pve too, but if a few sources of pve will be beatable by just <10% (allegedly), I'd assume that around 20 maaaybe 30% would be at all interested in even trying. At which point probably the majority of them would need a tracker (though this still depends on the boss design).
In other words, yes, obviously there'll be people who only have 2 options, just like Noaani, but I highly doubt they'd be the majority. But at that point we're just back to the "do Intrepid want FF14's situation" question. Cause as you pointed out, even with ff14's attitude towards meters/addons, that pluggin still has 18kk downloads, even if they might've come from just a mil or two of people.
To clarify why this is something that I would care about relative to Ashes, then.
Ashes is supposed to be competitive. It has the potential to be quite acutely so, ESPECIALLY for builds.
The point being made is simple. If 2-5% of the total playerbase is using trackers, and 10% of the playerbase is what we would call 'competitively viable', that's between 1/5th and one half of the 'competitive' playerbase that have a speed-of-development advantage over the remaining.
What happens when the 'average' player knows that a competitive opponent has an advantage of this type? I can see that you would be fine 'just losing repeatedly because your opponents use their trackers and you prefer to do it the hard way', but we are not talking about you. We're talking about all the people who 'don't have time or the will to keep being at a disadvantage, but would still like to compete'.
You consider this connected to PvE, but MOBAs have parsers. Fighting games sometimes have parsers. Some even have 'parsers' built into the game by the developers because they know players will do related things.
I think I get what you and Mag are saying, that you don't care enough about the higher levels of competition to care if they exist or not, and believe that others don't either. That's fine, I think I just 'prefer that Ashes isn't ruled by those who are willing to have them' on average, and I expect that those who are not willing to have them, but are also not willing to just keep losing, have hard decisions to make.
Does the counter count all downloads throughout the lifetime of the pluggin or unique downloads per each version? And on the off chance that it is unique per version, how many people are playing ff14 then?
I'm not dismissing the possibility that literally 18kk people decided to see their fight stats, but I somehow find it hard to believe that this many people care about it that much, especially in a game like FF14.
Would you prefer the numbers from Monster Hunter World? (PC only probably because of the way it works, you wouldn't use it on Console.)
Unique DLs
160,155
Total DLs
234,390
Here you are.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
So you are using a DL number to try to say gauge people using it and then you use MH as your example. You can't make this up how lost are you. Honestly at this point I'm questioning your information it seems disingenuous at best. Are we going to bring in call of duty numbers next?
Would you like to use those? I would figure they were unnecessary, doesn't CoD have its own ingame tracker that reports at end of match? I suppose there may be some people out there who want more specific realtime tracking and have their own custom scripts?
I can look on GitHub if you like.
You know the point you are simply trying to muddy the water. Debating on download numbers is the most pointless thing and doesn't speak much of anything. If it was a subscription type service and that pointed out people actually using it with direct numbers that would be more understandable. Regardless of the case someone can download it and not agree with wanting them or feel they are toxic and will prefer games without them or a focus on them.
Your points just boil down to they can't stop us we will d what we want and eventually able to do it in the open once we get enough people and we don't care what the TOS says. That is toxic in itself, and a clear direction on the mind set of some people that will use trackers for toxic behavior. The fact one of you made a point you have never seen toxic behavior while everyone else says they have seen it is already a red flag. Which shows there is most likely multiple levels of bias at hand layered on top of each other.
I have no intention of using a tracker in Ashes. I am internally debating whether I expect to be competitive enough to even need a parser. Please do not project your perceptions on me as a defense mechanism against the logic being presented, because you are once again, defeating your own goal here.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
I mean, I didn't say that none were interested in it. Just that a ton of people wouldn't care for it. I could easily see a million players throughout ff14's lifetime redownloading that plugging 18 times. But that 1mil would be out of potential dozens of millions in that same time period. Yes, obviously people will care about their dps and deep combat log, but that still doesn't deny the fact that the majority wouldn't care (I mean, potentially).
That 160k of MHW is roughly half of its players on steam. And MHW is a game build around complex pve afaik, so it'd make sense that more people would be interested in maximizing their output. But ff14 is mainly about their story, with a ton of other sources of entertainment in the game too. And AoC will be about a ton of pvp, artisan stuff and definitely some pve too, but if a few sources of pve will be beatable by just <10% (allegedly), I'd assume that around 20 maaaybe 30% would be at all interested in even trying. At which point probably the majority of them would need a tracker (though this still depends on the boss design).
In other words, yes, obviously there'll be people who only have 2 options, just like Noaani, but I highly doubt they'd be the majority. But at that point we're just back to the "do Intrepid want FF14's situation" question. Cause as you pointed out, even with ff14's attitude towards meters/addons, that pluggin still has 18kk downloads, even if they might've come from just a mil or two of people.
You could be extreme lenient and give them the extreme benefit of the doubt and say there is 5 million people of unique users that downloaded it.
BDO boost having 40m players and that is not a big mmorpg. If you think of FF being closer to WoW as the top current mmorpg to player and think of their unique users being like over 100M it becomes a small drop of 5m users. Even if you have the full unrealistic benefit of 18 it still would be less than 20% . But this gets into making things up than actual substantial information.
Talking about download numbers is absolutely pointless, even more so on people that download it and would prefer no trackers but use them would make that umber a even small amount. But arguing made up things just leads to a mess so its not a point worth bringing up. And why i keep saying they will reach as deep in their pocket for anything because a support for trackers in the sense of reading everyone's information is no what people would want or think about.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
I mean, I didn't say that none were interested in it. Just that a ton of people wouldn't care for it. I could easily see a million players throughout ff14's lifetime redownloading that plugging 18 times. But that 1mil would be out of potential dozens of millions in that same time period. Yes, obviously people will care about their dps and deep combat log, but that still doesn't deny the fact that the majority wouldn't care (I mean, potentially).
That 160k of MHW is roughly half of its players on steam. And MHW is a game build around complex pve afaik, so it'd make sense that more people would be interested in maximizing their output. But ff14 is mainly about their story, with a ton of other sources of entertainment in the game too. And AoC will be about a ton of pvp, artisan stuff and definitely some pve too, but if a few sources of pve will be beatable by just <10% (allegedly), I'd assume that around 20 maaaybe 30% would be at all interested in even trying. At which point probably the majority of them would need a tracker (though this still depends on the boss design).
In other words, yes, obviously there'll be people who only have 2 options, just like Noaani, but I highly doubt they'd be the majority. But at that point we're just back to the "do Intrepid want FF14's situation" question. Cause as you pointed out, even with ff14's attitude towards meters/addons, that pluggin still has 18kk downloads, even if they might've come from just a mil or two of people.
You could be extreme lenient and give them the extreme benefit of the doubt and say there is 5 million people of unique users that downloaded it.
BDO boost having 40m players and that is not a big mmorpg. If you think of FF being closer to WoW as the top current mmorpg to player and think of their unique users being like over 100M it becomes a small drop of 5m users. Even if you have the full unrealistic benefit of 18 it still would be less than 20% . But this gets into making things up than actual substantial information.
You are the same person that doubted that FF14 even had 24 million unique users back when we were arguing about Action Combat vs Tab.
Which of these realities should I be assuming you are in? Or will it just change by your mood at the time?
Does the counter count all downloads throughout the lifetime of the pluggin or unique downloads per each version? And on the off chance that it is unique per version, how many people are playing ff14 then?
I'm not dismissing the possibility that literally 18kk people decided to see their fight stats, but I somehow find it hard to believe that this many people care about it that much, especially in a game like FF14.
Would you prefer the numbers from Monster Hunter World? (PC only probably because of the way it works, you wouldn't use it on Console.)
Unique DLs
160,155
Total DLs
234,390
Here you are.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
So you are using a DL number to try to say gauge people using it and then you use MH as your example. You can't make this up how lost are you. Honestly at this point I'm questioning your information it seems disingenuous at best. Are we going to bring in call of duty numbers next?
Would you like to use those? I would figure they were unnecessary, doesn't CoD have its own ingame tracker that reports at end of match? I suppose there may be some people out there who want more specific realtime tracking and have their own custom scripts?
I can look on GitHub if you like.
You know the point you are simply trying to muddy the water. Debating on download numbers is the most pointless thing and doesn't speak much of anything. If it was a subscription type service and that pointed out people actually using it with direct numbers that would be more understandable. Regardless of the case someone can download it and not agree with wanting them or feel they are toxic and will prefer games without them or a focus on them.
Your points just boil down to they can't stop us we will d what we want and eventually able to do it in the open once we get enough people and we don't care what the TOS says. That is toxic in itself, and a clear direction on the mind set of some people that will use trackers for toxic behavior. The fact one of you made a point you have never seen toxic behavior while everyone else says they have seen it is already a red flag. Which shows there is most likely multiple levels of bias at hand layered on top of each other.
I have no intention of using a tracker in Ashes. I am internally debating whether I expect to be competitive enough to even need a parser. Please do not project your perceptions on me as a defense mechanism against the logic being presented, because you are once again, defeating your own goal here.
You support Noaani point so I'm bringing it up simply.
Does the counter count all downloads throughout the lifetime of the pluggin or unique downloads per each version? And on the off chance that it is unique per version, how many people are playing ff14 then?
I'm not dismissing the possibility that literally 18kk people decided to see their fight stats, but I somehow find it hard to believe that this many people care about it that much, especially in a game like FF14.
Would you prefer the numbers from Monster Hunter World? (PC only probably because of the way it works, you wouldn't use it on Console.)
Unique DLs
160,155
Total DLs
234,390
Here you are.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
So you are using a DL number to try to say gauge people using it and then you use MH as your example. You can't make this up how lost are you. Honestly at this point I'm questioning your information it seems disingenuous at best. Are we going to bring in call of duty numbers next?
Would you like to use those? I would figure they were unnecessary, doesn't CoD have its own ingame tracker that reports at end of match? I suppose there may be some people out there who want more specific realtime tracking and have their own custom scripts?
I can look on GitHub if you like.
You know the point you are simply trying to muddy the water. Debating on download numbers is the most pointless thing and doesn't speak much of anything. If it was a subscription type service and that pointed out people actually using it with direct numbers that would be more understandable. Regardless of the case someone can download it and not agree with wanting them or feel they are toxic and will prefer games without them or a focus on them.
Your points just boil down to they can't stop us we will d what we want and eventually able to do it in the open once we get enough people and we don't care what the TOS says. That is toxic in itself, and a clear direction on the mind set of some people that will use trackers for toxic behavior. The fact one of you made a point you have never seen toxic behavior while everyone else says they have seen it is already a red flag. Which shows there is most likely multiple levels of bias at hand layered on top of each other.
I have no intention of using a tracker in Ashes. I am internally debating whether I expect to be competitive enough to even need a parser. Please do not project your perceptions on me as a defense mechanism against the logic being presented, because you are once again, defeating your own goal here.
You support Noaani point so I'm bringing it up simply.
So, just to be clear...
"Anyone who supports Noaani in this thread is toxic, doesn't care what Ashes TOS says, and live by the 'we will do what we want' attitude."
Comments
The point is the small amount of people here and the toxic issue is about allowing people to track other people and what they do and gate keep. So they can watch you and start being toxic towards you if they don't agree with your play style or feel you are effective enough based on what they can see number wise even if that doesn't paint a full picture.
Yeah, I aware that and I still think the same, according what I read in few pages of recently discussion, almost every toxic behavior mentioned in this thread I already saw from Lineage 1 to now which means almost every mmo I played can see same toxic things no matter there are tools or not limited or not, to me it should be focused on what can we do to heavily punish that kind of behavior as it should be punished and as efficient as possible(for example if one player was found continue doing toxic behavior and not willing to stop I will say just delete the account and I'd love to pay another 5 USD month fee to support Intrepid if they do it, or make it optional like a VIP upgrade that when I report a player being toxic to me Intrepid will investigate my case as fast as they can and if it's true they will stop/delete that player's account but charge me another 5 USD month fee I'll definitely upgrade my account.) in stead of do things to prevent it happen efficiently(this prevent things to happen way may able to stop some toxic at some degree, but potentially damaging the game at the same time in my opinion.), the thing is those people so deeply trapped in the toxic issues seems don't aware some ideas they propose potentially driving a lot of player base away and that's the problem.
Second, everyone arguing the point has so far completely neglected to connect combat to toxicity. They have kind of just said that there is a causal effect, but had no reasoning at all to back that up.
Third, gatekeeping isnt negatively affected by combat trackers, it is affected by player competency. If you are a shit player and your guild can not see that, you are preventing your whole guild from accessing content. If they see you are shit and then boot you from the group or raid and carry on without you, then the combat tracker actually opens up more content to more people - just not those that were holding others back.
The simple fact is, if players joining groups or raids take the obligation they have towards the others in their group or raid seriously, there is simply no scope at all for toxicity or gatekeeping to even theoretically occur. It is literally only possible if someone isnt taking their obligation towards others seriously.
Its toxic and everyone knows it, honestly doesn't matter if you don't want to believe that because it doesn't fit what you want to get out of using a meter and viewing all people in your party.
Also, since games exist with combat trackers and communities that are very low in toxicity, it is easily demonstrable that the statement "trackers cause toxicity" is false.
These are things you - and everyone else - just ignore. You basically close your eyes and cover tour ears in order to ignore actual evidence, and just repeatedly tell "everyone knows trackers cause toxicity", while sitting with your legs crossed, rocking back and forward.
Lets say there is dozens of people, that doesn't come close to over 100 people against it. You are living in your own fantasy land really. The general thought is most people think is it only leads to added toxic behavior.
You are in a extreme minority of people that want to start tracking DPS of group members, and minority of trackers as a whole.
And your argument is they can't stop me, there isn't a more toxic line than that.
You seem to forget, most of the people against trackers are all for guild only trackers.
There are, in fact, only about a half dozen people that have actually engaged in this discussion and are still against them. The bulk of those that were initially against then other posted once and were not heard from again, or engaged in discussion and agreed that a guild based tracker was the best option.
The other thing you seem to be blatantly ignoring is the fact that no tracker is straight up not an option. It's either trackers as per basically every other MMO that you have played, or Intrepud building it in to the game client.
They are the two options available to us here. The ONLY two options.
In your mind you like to think that because you refuse to accept you are in the wrong. People are against them period, does it mean they won't play the game or they can deal with some aspect if there is no hope. Being ok with something doesn't mean its ideally with what they want everyone makes sacrifices.
But you don't care what they want, you only care about what you want and trying to comment and use peoples leeway to your advantage while having none yourself. Which that isn't even the case here with half the people being for guild trackers, forums are a 1% of players if that. Most people do not want trackers, do not understand them or use them, or would not want them if they understood certain elements in a larger bulk than people that would want them.
You can keep making things up in your head to convince yourself but again you are the extreme minority, people do not agree with what you want out of them and their bias is against trackers.
Arguments you create saying people will force trackers is not a argument for trackers. Stop trying to use that line to get people to give up what they ideally want. If people used that logic for everything in life it be stupid, like saying there are too many weapons so its too late to manage them for people.
But if you were talking purely about the top 1% of pve players, then maaaybe those are the only 2. I feel like there'll still be some people up there who won't use them.
FFXIV Parsing Plugin (2.6.6.1)Downloads: 18069827
What number would you like to divide by?
What number of 'downloads per person' is required to make your point real?
It doesn't matter how you twist it, people can be downloading it multiple times for whatever the reason. Trying to flex a number based on downloads is pointless information.
I suppose if you're wrong once, you must be willing to be wrong 1000 times. NiKr can decide if it is pointless information or not, I guess.
I'm not dismissing the possibility that literally 18kk people decided to see their fight stats, but I somehow find it hard to believe that this many people care about it that much, especially in a game like FF14.
Would you prefer the numbers from Monster Hunter World? (PC only probably because of the way it works, you wouldn't use it on Console.)
Unique DLs
160,155
Total DLs
234,390
Here you are.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
Nice try trying to get away with throwing pointless information that has nothing to do with what people want or how they feel. On top of with download numbers, that is the definition of fake news with people reaching. I can see the point is ignore what people want and the to force it into the game and get people to use it and spread it, it is clear as day.
Yes, I understand that your feelings are very important, and so is the reality they create.
I was addressing someone else's reality. There is no further need to defend yours.
So you are using a DL number to try to say gauge people using it and then you use MH as your example. You can't make this up how lost are you. Honestly at this point I'm questioning your information it seems disingenuous at best. Are we going to bring in call of duty numbers next?
Would you like to use those? I would figure they were unnecessary, doesn't CoD have its own ingame tracker that reports at end of match? I suppose there may be some people out there who want more specific realtime tracking and have their own custom scripts?
I can look on GitHub if you like.
That 160k of MHW is roughly half of its players on steam. And MHW is a game build around complex pve afaik, so it'd make sense that more people would be interested in maximizing their output. But ff14 is mainly about their story, with a ton of other sources of entertainment in the game too. And AoC will be about a ton of pvp, artisan stuff and definitely some pve too, but if a few sources of pve will be beatable by just <10% (allegedly), I'd assume that around 20 maaaybe 30% would be at all interested in even trying. At which point probably the majority of them would need a tracker (though this still depends on the boss design).
In other words, yes, obviously there'll be people who only have 2 options, just like Noaani, but I highly doubt they'd be the majority. But at that point we're just back to the "do Intrepid want FF14's situation" question. Cause as you pointed out, even with ff14's attitude towards meters/addons, that pluggin still has 18kk downloads, even if they might've come from just a mil or two of people.
You know the point you are simply trying to muddy the water. Debating on download numbers is the most pointless thing and doesn't speak much of anything. If it was a subscription type service and that pointed out people actually using it with direct numbers that would be more understandable. Regardless of the case someone can download it and not agree with wanting them or feel they are toxic and will prefer games without them or a focus on them.
Your points just boil down to they can't stop us we will d what we want and eventually able to do it in the open once we get enough people and we don't care what the TOS says. That is toxic in itself, and a clear direction on the mind set of some people that will use trackers for toxic behavior. The fact one of you made a point you have never seen toxic behavior while everyone else says they have seen it is already a red flag. Which shows there is most likely multiple levels of bias at hand layered on top of each other.
To clarify why this is something that I would care about relative to Ashes, then.
Ashes is supposed to be competitive. It has the potential to be quite acutely so, ESPECIALLY for builds.
The point being made is simple. If 2-5% of the total playerbase is using trackers, and 10% of the playerbase is what we would call 'competitively viable', that's between 1/5th and one half of the 'competitive' playerbase that have a speed-of-development advantage over the remaining.
What happens when the 'average' player knows that a competitive opponent has an advantage of this type? I can see that you would be fine 'just losing repeatedly because your opponents use their trackers and you prefer to do it the hard way', but we are not talking about you. We're talking about all the people who 'don't have time or the will to keep being at a disadvantage, but would still like to compete'.
You consider this connected to PvE, but MOBAs have parsers. Fighting games sometimes have parsers. Some even have 'parsers' built into the game by the developers because they know players will do related things.
I think I get what you and Mag are saying, that you don't care enough about the higher levels of competition to care if they exist or not, and believe that others don't either. That's fine, I think I just 'prefer that Ashes isn't ruled by those who are willing to have them' on average, and I expect that those who are not willing to have them, but are also not willing to just keep losing, have hard decisions to make.
I have no intention of using a tracker in Ashes. I am internally debating whether I expect to be competitive enough to even need a parser. Please do not project your perceptions on me as a defense mechanism against the logic being presented, because you are once again, defeating your own goal here.
You could be extreme lenient and give them the extreme benefit of the doubt and say there is 5 million people of unique users that downloaded it.
BDO boost having 40m players and that is not a big mmorpg. If you think of FF being closer to WoW as the top current mmorpg to player and think of their unique users being like over 100M it becomes a small drop of 5m users. Even if you have the full unrealistic benefit of 18 it still would be less than 20% . But this gets into making things up than actual substantial information.
Talking about download numbers is absolutely pointless, even more so on people that download it and would prefer no trackers but use them would make that umber a even small amount. But arguing made up things just leads to a mess so its not a point worth bringing up. And why i keep saying they will reach as deep in their pocket for anything because a support for trackers in the sense of reading everyone's information is no what people would want or think about.
You are the same person that doubted that FF14 even had 24 million unique users back when we were arguing about Action Combat vs Tab.
Which of these realities should I be assuming you are in? Or will it just change by your mood at the time?
You support Noaani point so I'm bringing it up simply.
So, just to be clear...
"Anyone who supports Noaani in this thread is toxic, doesn't care what Ashes TOS says, and live by the 'we will do what we want' attitude."
Correct?