Right, hardcore was first coined in MUDs. When one was partaking in long gaming sessions it was known as Hardcore. In the 90s Hardcore became a game mode, I'll give you that much, but, the long gaming sessions were still known as going hardcore. It is true, many of us did grind for long periods but it was known as going hardcore. Grinding is a separate facet because you can craft and still go hardcore, or, you can fish and still go hardcore. Grinding is an individual facet. You don't call crafting for long periods grinding, you also don't call fishing for long periods to be grinding. All of these activities are classified as going hardcore when long hours are harnessed.
You might call all these activities 'grinding' but that does mean everyone else does. If everyone called all of these hardcore practices 'grinding' then they would not be in Ashes because the devs are against 'grinding'. I can't be more specific.
If you are playing a game for 4-8 hours a day, people can say you are grinding the game. Listen to what is said, stop assuming your own interpretation of the word grinding and not the context how people are talking about and starting pointless arguments about that for no reason.
You are effectively saying to people I don't like how you talk use my words or i won't understand you, sounds petty and arrogant to me.
You seem to think you know it all. I played the game in A1. I'm fully aware of what I know. Also, you claim Noanni is someone who stands alone, but, no one backs up your arguments. Grinding is a known term for gaining levels through repetitive slaughter. BDO is a prime example of a grind. Ashes is not like that at all. Partly because the devs don't want it and partly because the quests give far more experience.
I know full well what I will and won't be doing. Spending mindless hours in repetition will not be one of those things as I'm a hardcore gamer and I will have better things to do with my time. You claimed that life skilling was pointless compared to grinding in BDO. Thus, your knowledge is something I do not require. You can take my advice or leave my advice. You'll be the one wasting time. I doubt you will be able to defeat the seasoned veterans who have played every rendition of the combat system to date. Alas, I am not one of those people.
A1 isn't a content test you have absolutely no clue what you will be doing in the game.
Again why are you arguing word semantics what do you hope to gain? You are not using it in the way i used the word to begin.
I've more than likely played more mmorpgs than you sooo, if we are talking about veterans is be more so than you. You are literarily here arguing word semantics. If you play a mmorpg every day someone can say they are grinding that mmorpg / game. Can you stop trying to argue word semantics with me?
The problem with lying as much as you do, is that eventually every person that would support you hears a lie that they have to call you out on because they know the truth, so you just end up with everyone realizing you're a liar.
Both of the people you're talking to right now have played way more MMOs than you, and it shows. Maybe if you played as much as they have, you would realize that.
Grilled cheese always tastes better when you eat it together!
When I refer to hardcore I'm talking 16 to 20 hours a day...especially whilst levelling. When I used to take certain substances I would go hardcore for 72 hours straight. If you think that grinding is the epitome of action within a game then you are mistaken. My normal mode of levelling is grinding, but, grinding can be done casually, or, hardcore. When my ex mrs asked 'What have you been doing all weeekend.' I'd respond 'Going hardcore the same as our clubbing regime'. She would then say 'I hope you weren't grinding females'. I'd respond with no 'Just grinding npcs'.
There will be no benefit to 'grinding' npcs in Ashes of Creation. I'm not sure how you are not getting the concept. Grinding and farming used to go hand in hand. In Ashes, grinding will be pointless but farming will be key. These two concepts are separate because of the exact argument we are having right now. As you can see, you've complicated a simple matter due to your inability to accept that grinding is a facet.
The best way to figure if something is good or not for a game is how it can be abused. If the abuse is high and destructive, its not meant to be in the game. If the abuse is low and rare, it can be added into the game.
?? What??
I can't agree with you.
You are saying if something can be abused heavily it must be bad, out side of games medicines, in side of games t bag, so do we need to remove all RP gestures or actions now?
Again why are you arguing word semantics what do you hope to gain? You are not using it in the way i used the word to begin.
You dont get to decide your own meaning for words. That literally isnt how words work.
Intrepid have said Ashes wont have grinding.
As to you saying you've played more MMO's - dude, you're like 12. You haven't played more MMO's than anyone here - not that it even matters.
Kid you are 15, I've played more than you. You have no content because you watch videos and talk as if you played EQ when you really haven't. Its why you are so ignorant half the time. I've played more mmorpgs and longer than your life pretty much.
The fact you can't comprehend what it means when you grind a game is sad. I legit must be too old school for you, you think grinding a game and a grinding game are the same thing. But hey all you can do is arguing toxic points and semantics and you wonder why i can't take you seriously lmfao.
Your whole mentality is toxic as hell, but if we are going back to slinging age insults I'm all for it then maybe it will be a language you can understand.
Um... to me you're the one being toxic, others argue too but I think we all respect each other experiences thoughts ideas trying to understand each other better to stay at same picture to find the middle ground we suppose to find in this mega thread but I don't see it on you, sorry.
No. I don't think I'm reading too deep. There will be no need to grind. All you have to do is guard a few caravans, make a few merchant friends, buy the relevant resources and ask your merchant friends to arm you. A mutually beneficial contract.
You literally and looking to deep into it, any game you play four hours on end you are grinding it. Why are you trying to argue semantics with me with words?
um... nope?
I can play 8 hours animal crossing means I'm grinding it? I don't think so, I just having fun with my virtual cute neighbours and fishing.
Right, hardcore was first coined in MUDs. When one was partaking in long gaming sessions it was known as Hardcore. In the 90s Hardcore became a game mode, I'll give you that much, but, the long gaming sessions were still known as going hardcore. It is true, many of us did grind for long periods but it was known as going hardcore. Grinding is a separate facet because you can craft and still go hardcore, or, you can fish and still go hardcore. Grinding is an individual facet. You don't call crafting for long periods grinding, you also don't call fishing for long periods to be grinding. All of these activities are classified as going hardcore when long hours are harnessed.
You might call all these activities 'grinding' but that does mean everyone else does. If everyone called all of these hardcore practices 'grinding' then they would not be in Ashes because the devs are against 'grinding'. I can't be more specific.
If you are playing a game for 4-8 hours a day, people can say you are grinding the game. Listen to what is said, stop assuming your own interpretation of the word grinding and not the context how people are talking about and starting pointless arguments about that for no reason.
You are effectively saying to people I don't like how you talk use my words or i won't understand you, sounds petty and arrogant to me.
That is in fact, how words work.
So far, no one agrees with your definition of 'grinding'. Of course, you can keep using it, but it will have about as much meaning as any of the other words you use in the non-standard way.
Yet again, this all seems to stem from your lack of understanding of BDO of all things. Which is pretty disappointing. I was really hoping you were actually good at that game so we could have at least one solid basis to have discussions from, but it seems not.
Right, hardcore was first coined in MUDs. When one was partaking in long gaming sessions it was known as Hardcore. In the 90s Hardcore became a game mode, I'll give you that much, but, the long gaming sessions were still known as going hardcore. It is true, many of us did grind for long periods but it was known as going hardcore. Grinding is a separate facet because you can craft and still go hardcore, or, you can fish and still go hardcore. Grinding is an individual facet. You don't call crafting for long periods grinding, you also don't call fishing for long periods to be grinding. All of these activities are classified as going hardcore when long hours are harnessed.
You might call all these activities 'grinding' but that does mean everyone else does. If everyone called all of these hardcore practices 'grinding' then they would not be in Ashes because the devs are against 'grinding'. I can't be more specific.
If you are playing a game for 4-8 hours a day, people can say you are grinding the game. Listen to what is said, stop assuming your own interpretation of the word grinding and not the context how people are talking about and starting pointless arguments about that for no reason.
You are effectively saying to people I don't like how you talk use my words or i won't understand you, sounds petty and arrogant to me.
Stop letting Mag troll you all, even if he thinks long play sessions are grinds, he's just purposely pretending not to understand how language works so he can call people toxic.
Anyways, I feel l had a really good succinct perspective to pose to those who oppose the concept of meters based on the gameplay effect, but I only half-remember it, and I think the only actual 'opposition' speaking lately is Mag, who obviously represents the massive 'silent majority' (can we get a different representative please?)
I'll let you know when I remember it, but it was definitely something simple approximately in this area:
"If we agree that re-reading the combat log is a good, POSSIBLY the best way to notice certain issues with your style or build or timing of skills, particularly in groups, do we also agree that this is difficult enough for Bards specifically that they would be 'expected' to do so?"
Which follows on in the obvious way. Generally my understanding is that Bards need meters the most, followed by Mages (in complex games), then Healers, then Tanks, and then you just go down the list for the Damage Dealers. Not because DPS is easy specifically, but because they are not tracking as many things at once.
I actually think (just personal opinion) that part of the reason we see lesser numbers of Tanks, Bards, Healers in some games at higher levels, is related to this. The DPS race is not necessarily 'a place for glory' for everyone, but DPS is easier to objectively claim "I did well enough, X thing died in Y time", so they can use trackers much more sparingly. Figure out the build and the enemy and do the thing.
tl;dr do people really think that Bards in a complex game either:
1) Can easily do all their assessment of how to improve and their effectiveness without carefully looking at the combat log
2) Should have to spend much more time than others going through such a combat log manually (while sometimes not having access to other people's DPS numbers or mitigation values anyway, if we're trying to hide as much as possible)
(My Bard is sick so I'm back on duty on her behalf at least).
You seem to think you know it all. I played the game in A1. I'm fully aware of what I know. Also, you claim Noanni is someone who stands alone, but, no one backs up your arguments. Grinding is a known term for gaining levels through repetitive slaughter. BDO is a prime example of a grind. Ashes is not like that at all. Partly because the devs don't want it and partly because the quests give far more experience.
I know full well what I will and won't be doing. Spending mindless hours in repetition will not be one of those things as I'm a hardcore gamer and I will have better things to do with my time. You claimed that life skilling was pointless compared to grinding in BDO. Thus, your knowledge is something I do not require. You can take my advice or leave my advice. You'll be the one wasting time. I doubt you will be able to defeat the seasoned veterans who have played every rendition of the combat system to date. Alas, I am not one of those people.
A1 isn't a content test you have absolutely no clue what you will be doing in the game.
Again why are you arguing word semantics what do you hope to gain? You are not using it in the way i used the word to begin.
I've more than likely played more mmorpgs than you sooo, if we are talking about veterans is be more so than you. You are literarily here arguing word semantics. If you play a mmorpg every day someone can say they are grinding that mmorpg / game. Can you stop trying to argue word semantics with me?
The problem with lying as much as you do, is that eventually every person that would support you hears a lie that they have to call you out on because they know the truth, so you just end up with everyone realizing you're a liar.
Both of the people you're talking to right now have played way more MMOs than you, and it shows. Maybe if you played as much as they have, you would realize that.
I've played more mmorpgs than them lmfao. I can do and say the exact same thing, that is the problem with lying and assuming things about people.
Ironically it makes your own point work against you when you assume something against someone else and say their words are a lie. but hey its easier for people to make something up and say they are right anyone can play that kind of game.
Right, hardcore was first coined in MUDs. When one was partaking in long gaming sessions it was known as Hardcore. In the 90s Hardcore became a game mode, I'll give you that much, but, the long gaming sessions were still known as going hardcore. It is true, many of us did grind for long periods but it was known as going hardcore. Grinding is a separate facet because you can craft and still go hardcore, or, you can fish and still go hardcore. Grinding is an individual facet. You don't call crafting for long periods grinding, you also don't call fishing for long periods to be grinding. All of these activities are classified as going hardcore when long hours are harnessed.
You might call all these activities 'grinding' but that does mean everyone else does. If everyone called all of these hardcore practices 'grinding' then they would not be in Ashes because the devs are against 'grinding'. I can't be more specific.
If you are playing a game for 4-8 hours a day, people can say you are grinding the game. Listen to what is said, stop assuming your own interpretation of the word grinding and not the context how people are talking about and starting pointless arguments about that for no reason.
You are effectively saying to people I don't like how you talk use my words or i won't understand you, sounds petty and arrogant to me.
That is in fact, how words work.
So far, no one agrees with your definition of 'grinding'. Of course, you can keep using it, but it will have about as much meaning as any of the other words you use in the non-standard way.
Yet again, this all seems to stem from your lack of understanding of BDO of all things. Which is pretty disappointing. I was really hoping you were actually good at that game so we could have at least one solid basis to have discussions from, but it seems not.
This has nothing to do with BDO, you really jumping into a convo to throw pointless spite?
Yes that is how words work and plenty of people will agree and use the word in that way, just like some people will disagree if it suits their narrative even if them disagreeing makes no sense and they are trying to argue semantics. But its the thing you tracker people have in common, you will do whatever it takes to be toxic.
You seem to think you know it all. I played the game in A1. I'm fully aware of what I know. Also, you claim Noanni is someone who stands alone, but, no one backs up your arguments. Grinding is a known term for gaining levels through repetitive slaughter. BDO is a prime example of a grind. Ashes is not like that at all. Partly because the devs don't want it and partly because the quests give far more experience.
I know full well what I will and won't be doing. Spending mindless hours in repetition will not be one of those things as I'm a hardcore gamer and I will have better things to do with my time. You claimed that life skilling was pointless compared to grinding in BDO. Thus, your knowledge is something I do not require. You can take my advice or leave my advice. You'll be the one wasting time. I doubt you will be able to defeat the seasoned veterans who have played every rendition of the combat system to date. Alas, I am not one of those people.
A1 isn't a content test you have absolutely no clue what you will be doing in the game.
Again why are you arguing word semantics what do you hope to gain? You are not using it in the way i used the word to begin.
I've more than likely played more mmorpgs than you sooo, if we are talking about veterans is be more so than you. You are literarily here arguing word semantics. If you play a mmorpg every day someone can say they are grinding that mmorpg / game. Can you stop trying to argue word semantics with me?
The problem with lying as much as you do, is that eventually every person that would support you hears a lie that they have to call you out on because they know the truth, so you just end up with everyone realizing you're a liar.
Both of the people you're talking to right now have played way more MMOs than you, and it shows. Maybe if you played as much as they have, you would realize that.
I've played more mmorpgs than them lmfao. I can do and say the exact same thing, that is the problem with lying and assuming things about people.
Ironically it makes your own point work against you when you assume something against someone else and say their words are a lie. but hey its easier for people to make something up and say they are right anyone can play that kind of game.
I think you missed the point, got caught up in your feelings again.
Sometimes people KNOW you're lying or ignorant based on their own experience. You run your mouth in ignorance too OFTEN so you end up making it clear to everyone.
Now, technically, this is a good thing in general, since it lets people learn about your 'loose relationship with the truth' quicker, but I feel like somehow, it does not put you in the... let's say 'Top 10' of most credible people.
Right, hardcore was first coined in MUDs. When one was partaking in long gaming sessions it was known as Hardcore. In the 90s Hardcore became a game mode, I'll give you that much, but, the long gaming sessions were still known as going hardcore. It is true, many of us did grind for long periods but it was known as going hardcore. Grinding is a separate facet because you can craft and still go hardcore, or, you can fish and still go hardcore. Grinding is an individual facet. You don't call crafting for long periods grinding, you also don't call fishing for long periods to be grinding. All of these activities are classified as going hardcore when long hours are harnessed.
You might call all these activities 'grinding' but that does mean everyone else does. If everyone called all of these hardcore practices 'grinding' then they would not be in Ashes because the devs are against 'grinding'. I can't be more specific.
If you are playing a game for 4-8 hours a day, people can say you are grinding the game. Listen to what is said, stop assuming your own interpretation of the word grinding and not the context how people are talking about and starting pointless arguments about that for no reason.
You are effectively saying to people I don't like how you talk use my words or i won't understand you, sounds petty and arrogant to me.
Stop letting Mag troll you all, even if he thinks long play sessions are grinds, he's just purposely pretending not to understand how language works so he can call people toxic.
I understand how language works do you? Saying you are grinding a mmorpg instead of playing is interchangeable based on peoples use of language. I guess i need to break it down since you don't understand.
It means the mmorpg you are playing is something you do every day or often, working towards whatever goals you have set in the quest to get more gear and such. Generally it be more of a hardcore term than simply playing the game.
Your whole mentality is toxic as hell, but if we are going back to slinging age insults I'm all for it then maybe it will be a language you can understand.
Actually, I was going for more of an observation on your education level. I was going to say that if you are indeed older than 12, you may want to talk to a lawyer and see if you have grounds for suing your education provider.
However, after reading Azheraes post above, I think it may just be that you don't understand the difference between the concepts of truth and opinion, rather than a total lack of education (though you do come across as having had no education past age 12 - at least to me).
Right, hardcore was first coined in MUDs. When one was partaking in long gaming sessions it was known as Hardcore. In the 90s Hardcore became a game mode, I'll give you that much, but, the long gaming sessions were still known as going hardcore. It is true, many of us did grind for long periods but it was known as going hardcore. Grinding is a separate facet because you can craft and still go hardcore, or, you can fish and still go hardcore. Grinding is an individual facet. You don't call crafting for long periods grinding, you also don't call fishing for long periods to be grinding. All of these activities are classified as going hardcore when long hours are harnessed.
You might call all these activities 'grinding' but that does mean everyone else does. If everyone called all of these hardcore practices 'grinding' then they would not be in Ashes because the devs are against 'grinding'. I can't be more specific.
If you are playing a game for 4-8 hours a day, people can say you are grinding the game. Listen to what is said, stop assuming your own interpretation of the word grinding and not the context how people are talking about and starting pointless arguments about that for no reason.
You are effectively saying to people I don't like how you talk use my words or i won't understand you, sounds petty and arrogant to me.
That is in fact, how words work.
So far, no one agrees with your definition of 'grinding'. Of course, you can keep using it, but it will have about as much meaning as any of the other words you use in the non-standard way.
Yet again, this all seems to stem from your lack of understanding of BDO of all things. Which is pretty disappointing. I was really hoping you were actually good at that game so we could have at least one solid basis to have discussions from, but it seems not.
This has nothing to do with BDO, you really jumping into a convo to throw pointless spite?
Yes that is how words work and plenty of people will agree and use the word in that way, just like some people will disagree if it suits their narrative even if them disagreeing makes no sense and they are trying to argue semantics. But its the thing you tracker people have in common, you will do whatever it takes to be toxic.
My point is that you don't need to talk about 'grinding' in the first place, you're just throwing Neurath in your 'toxic' pile because you said something that hit Neurath's bs-meter.
No matter which definition of 'grind' you use, it has nothing to do with Combat Tracker use, likelihood of being 'caught' for it, or anything of that kind.
Have you even ever used a Tracker? I find it difficult to believe that you have this perception (specifically the one where people would be discouraged or worry about being banned) if you have used one. I still don't know if you know what I mean when I say 'parser'.
Come to think of it, I don't know if you know what GitHub is either...
You seem to think you know it all. I played the game in A1. I'm fully aware of what I know. Also, you claim Noanni is someone who stands alone, but, no one backs up your arguments. Grinding is a known term for gaining levels through repetitive slaughter. BDO is a prime example of a grind. Ashes is not like that at all. Partly because the devs don't want it and partly because the quests give far more experience.
I know full well what I will and won't be doing. Spending mindless hours in repetition will not be one of those things as I'm a hardcore gamer and I will have better things to do with my time. You claimed that life skilling was pointless compared to grinding in BDO. Thus, your knowledge is something I do not require. You can take my advice or leave my advice. You'll be the one wasting time. I doubt you will be able to defeat the seasoned veterans who have played every rendition of the combat system to date. Alas, I am not one of those people.
A1 isn't a content test you have absolutely no clue what you will be doing in the game.
Again why are you arguing word semantics what do you hope to gain? You are not using it in the way i used the word to begin.
I've more than likely played more mmorpgs than you sooo, if we are talking about veterans is be more so than you. You are literarily here arguing word semantics. If you play a mmorpg every day someone can say they are grinding that mmorpg / game. Can you stop trying to argue word semantics with me?
The problem with lying as much as you do, is that eventually every person that would support you hears a lie that they have to call you out on because they know the truth, so you just end up with everyone realizing you're a liar.
Both of the people you're talking to right now have played way more MMOs than you, and it shows. Maybe if you played as much as they have, you would realize that.
I've played more mmorpgs than them lmfao. I can do and say the exact same thing, that is the problem with lying and assuming things about people.
Ironically it makes your own point work against you when you assume something against someone else and say their words are a lie. but hey its easier for people to make something up and say they are right anyone can play that kind of game.
I think you missed the point, got caught up in your feelings again.
Sometimes people KNOW you're lying or ignorant based on their own experience. You run your mouth in ignorance too OFTEN so you end up making it clear to everyone.
Now, technically, this is a good thing in general, since it lets people learn about your 'loose relationship with the truth' quicker, but I feel like somehow, it does not put you in the... let's say 'Top 10' of most credible people.
You are literarily just making up bs fantasies in your head because you have a issue where you need to see yourself as right or logical even if you are wrong. Its kind of a big character flaw for you, and its going to make you have a hard to understanding people and forcing your thoughts on their meaning and creating your own meaning to satisfy your need to be logical since you aren't able to understand someone.
Which means you also can't take criticism by the way, you would change someone else's words to fit a narrative in your mind.
The only people here lying would be you and Noaani, you simply don't care what people think just what you think to be is right. Huge flaw btw.
You seem to think you know it all. I played the game in A1. I'm fully aware of what I know. Also, you claim Noanni is someone who stands alone, but, no one backs up your arguments. Grinding is a known term for gaining levels through repetitive slaughter. BDO is a prime example of a grind. Ashes is not like that at all. Partly because the devs don't want it and partly because the quests give far more experience.
I know full well what I will and won't be doing. Spending mindless hours in repetition will not be one of those things as I'm a hardcore gamer and I will have better things to do with my time. You claimed that life skilling was pointless compared to grinding in BDO. Thus, your knowledge is something I do not require. You can take my advice or leave my advice. You'll be the one wasting time. I doubt you will be able to defeat the seasoned veterans who have played every rendition of the combat system to date. Alas, I am not one of those people.
A1 isn't a content test you have absolutely no clue what you will be doing in the game.
Again why are you arguing word semantics what do you hope to gain? You are not using it in the way i used the word to begin.
I've more than likely played more mmorpgs than you sooo, if we are talking about veterans is be more so than you. You are literarily here arguing word semantics. If you play a mmorpg every day someone can say they are grinding that mmorpg / game. Can you stop trying to argue word semantics with me?
The problem with lying as much as you do, is that eventually every person that would support you hears a lie that they have to call you out on because they know the truth, so you just end up with everyone realizing you're a liar.
Both of the people you're talking to right now have played way more MMOs than you, and it shows. Maybe if you played as much as they have, you would realize that.
I've played more mmorpgs than them lmfao. I can do and say the exact same thing, that is the problem with lying and assuming things about people.
Ironically it makes your own point work against you when you assume something against someone else and say their words are a lie. but hey its easier for people to make something up and say they are right anyone can play that kind of game.
I think you missed the point, got caught up in your feelings again.
Sometimes people KNOW you're lying or ignorant based on their own experience. You run your mouth in ignorance too OFTEN so you end up making it clear to everyone.
Now, technically, this is a good thing in general, since it lets people learn about your 'loose relationship with the truth' quicker, but I feel like somehow, it does not put you in the... let's say 'Top 10' of most credible people.
You are literarily just making up bs fantasies in your head because you have a issue where you need to see yourself as right or logical even if you are wrong. Its kind of a big character flaw for you, and its going to make you have a hard to understanding people and forcing your thoughts on their meaning and creating your own meaning to satisfy your need to be logical since you aren't able to understand someone.
Which means you also can't take criticism by the way, you would change someone else's words to fit a narrative in your mind.
The only people here lying would be you and Noaani, you simply don't care what people think just what you think to be is right. Huge flaw btw.
I would be super happy to change and learn if you had ever brought a single piece of evidence other than your gut feelings on something, to basically any argument you've ever made, but the literal only time you ever did this, with a screenshot no less, it was (almost) intentionally misleading.
I will accept the character flaw of 'doesn't take bullshit at face value from people who sling around deceitful information'.
I know that there is no recourse on the forums to stop you from doing this, what you are doing is not likely to even result in a warning, so all I can do is continue to point it out when you do it. I don't even want Intrepid to take any action. You are the sort of person we need to find a way to 'deal with' as a community.
When I refer to hardcore I'm talking 16 to 20 hours a day...especially whilst levelling. When I used to take certain substances I would go hardcore for 72 hours straight. If you think that grinding is the epitome of action within a game then you are mistaken. My normal mode of levelling is grinding, but, grinding can be done casually, or, hardcore. When my ex mrs asked 'What have you been doing all weeekend.' I'd respond 'Going hardcore the same as our clubbing regime'. She would then say 'I hope you weren't grinding females'. I'd respond with no 'Just grinding npcs'.
There will be no benefit to 'grinding' npcs in Ashes of Creation. I'm not sure how you are not getting the concept. Grinding and farming used to go hand in hand. In Ashes, grinding will be pointless but farming will be key. These two concepts are separate because of the exact argument we are having right now. As you can see, you've complicated a simple matter due to your inability to accept that grinding is a facet.
72 hours straight? You need care more about you body it's no healthy.
You seem to think you know it all. I played the game in A1. I'm fully aware of what I know. Also, you claim Noanni is someone who stands alone, but, no one backs up your arguments. Grinding is a known term for gaining levels through repetitive slaughter. BDO is a prime example of a grind. Ashes is not like that at all. Partly because the devs don't want it and partly because the quests give far more experience.
I know full well what I will and won't be doing. Spending mindless hours in repetition will not be one of those things as I'm a hardcore gamer and I will have better things to do with my time. You claimed that life skilling was pointless compared to grinding in BDO. Thus, your knowledge is something I do not require. You can take my advice or leave my advice. You'll be the one wasting time. I doubt you will be able to defeat the seasoned veterans who have played every rendition of the combat system to date. Alas, I am not one of those people.
A1 isn't a content test you have absolutely no clue what you will be doing in the game.
Again why are you arguing word semantics what do you hope to gain? You are not using it in the way i used the word to begin.
I've more than likely played more mmorpgs than you sooo, if we are talking about veterans is be more so than you. You are literarily here arguing word semantics. If you play a mmorpg every day someone can say they are grinding that mmorpg / game. Can you stop trying to argue word semantics with me?
The problem with lying as much as you do, is that eventually every person that would support you hears a lie that they have to call you out on because they know the truth, so you just end up with everyone realizing you're a liar.
Both of the people you're talking to right now have played way more MMOs than you, and it shows. Maybe if you played as much as they have, you would realize that.
I've played more mmorpgs than them lmfao. I can do and say the exact same thing, that is the problem with lying and assuming things about people.
Ironically it makes your own point work against you when you assume something against someone else and say their words are a lie. but hey its easier for people to make something up and say they are right anyone can play that kind of game.
I think you missed the point, got caught up in your feelings again.
Sometimes people KNOW you're lying or ignorant based on their own experience. You run your mouth in ignorance too OFTEN so you end up making it clear to everyone.
Now, technically, this is a good thing in general, since it lets people learn about your 'loose relationship with the truth' quicker, but I feel like somehow, it does not put you in the... let's say 'Top 10' of most credible people.
You are literarily just making up bs fantasies in your head because you have a issue where you need to see yourself as right or logical even if you are wrong. Its kind of a big character flaw for you, and its going to make you have a hard to understanding people and forcing your thoughts on their meaning and creating your own meaning to satisfy your need to be logical since you aren't able to understand someone.
Which means you also can't take criticism by the way, you would change someone else's words to fit a narrative in your mind.
The only people here lying would be you and Noaani, you simply don't care what people think just what you think to be is right. Huge flaw btw.
I would be super happy to change and learn if you had ever brought a single piece of evidence other than your gut feelings on something, to basically any argument you've ever made, but the literal only time you ever did this, with a screenshot no less, it was (almost) intentionally misleading.
I will accept the character flaw of 'doesn't take bullshit at face value from people who sling around deceitful information'.
I know that there is no recourse on the forums to stop you from doing this, what you are doing is not likely to even result in a warning, so all I can do is continue to point it out when you do it. I don't even want Intrepid to take any action. You are the sort of person we need to find a way to 'deal with' as a community.
I just wish it didn't take so many posts.
I can say the same exact thing to you cause issues and trying to create misleading statements. You have already showed you take pride in being "chaotic evil" and trying to create a false narrative on me creating a misleading point when you know you are simply lying.
You don't need factual evidence on the use of the term grinding being interchangeable with playing in the context it was used. You are jumping in attempting to mislead when It was stated how my term grinding was used and even more clarified again. People can say anything is a grind, grind to get max level, Someone saying you are grinding the game instead of playing it.
So honestly ill say it right back at you, in most likely you won't be looked into either in attempting to start conflict over word semantics and attempt to label people as misleading out of your own dislike.
Keep it relevant to the main initial topic otherwise just shut the thread because its not good to see about 2 pages worth just be pointless irrelevant posts.
-> while dps meters are good to register dps and allow players to improve as dps but they create toxicity in raids/guilds and small groups forcing players to adopt a optimal build regardless of whether they want to or not.
The benefits of the dps meter doesn't outweigh the negativity and stifling builds it brings in the long run.
2
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I have never believed that toxicity is the only reason Intrepid was against trackers. It was just one reason of many. But easier to state the equivalent of one solid reason and/or a "because I decided" than enter into an endless debate for which there are multiple arguments for and against.
Without a combat trackers players will take longer to get through content, requiring time, patience, trial and error and community interaction to solve the problems. That is a given.
Whereas with a combat tracker, content will likely negate the learning time, develop quicker, faster paths to success, narrow the range of attempted builds, require less discussion and thereby take away a lot of the value of the success in achieving, possibly leave classes / builds untouched or excluded and propelling those select players to a higher result much quicker.
This in turn places more pressure on Interpid to stay ahead of the community, "a higher development overhead". Increases the need for new development of more and more content, and/or increasingly complex or varying content as players will reduce their learning time through trial and error and practice, and thereby churn through content much faster. I could strongly see them pushing back on this, especially at early stages as there is so much to do and resolve as it is, let alone try to push the challenge for a select minority of elite players.
With or without, with every micro detail placed on youtube within a short time all laid out, there is going to be a battle to keep things special and challenging as it is!
while dps meters are good to register dps and allow players to improve as dps but they create toxicity in raids/guilds and small groups forcing players to adopt a optimal build regardless of whether they want to or not.
If you are joining a group or a raid, you have an obligation to fulfill your role to the best of your abilities.
If you know you are playing a build that is not the best for the role in the group or raid you have agreed to fill, why would you agree to fill that role?
Sure, you may not be the best player in the world, you may not have the best gear in the world. These are things you cant immediately do anything about.
Running a sub-par build, however, that is something you can change. If you do not change it, it is simply because tou are unwilling.
Why should me and my group or raid have to suffer because you refuse to change to a build that is better suited to the role you agreed to fill?
That said, a game will have a meta with or without combat trackers. There absolutely will be a list of acceptable builds that you must conform to in order to be taken along on most pick up content.
while dps meters are good to register dps and allow players to improve as dps but they create toxicity in raids/guilds and small groups forcing players to adopt a optimal build regardless of whether they want to or not.
If you are joining a group or a raid, you have an obligation to fulfill your role to the best of your abilities.
If you know you are playing a build that is not the best for the role in the group or raid you have agreed to fill, why would you agree to fill that role?
Sure, you may not be the best player in the world, you may not have the best gear in the world. These are things you cant immediately do anything about.
Running a sub-par build, however, that is something you can change. If you do not change it, it is simply because tou are unwilling.
Why should me and my group or raid have to suffer because you refuse to change to a build that is better suited to the role you agreed to fill?
That said, a game will have a meta with or without combat trackers. There absolutely will be a list of acceptable builds that you must conform to in order to be taken along on most pick up content.
you just stated yourself that you would effectively create the problem that wow and several mmorpgs have because of said trackers. If Intrepid are trying to change the genre then the worse thing to do is to have a tracker that forces optimum builds and kill its own entire line of creativity so early on.
The best way to figure if something is good or not for a game is how it can be abused. If the abuse is high and destructive, its not meant to be in the game. If the abuse is low and rare, it can be added into the game.
I have two questions for you, if you have the time.
The first is - in WoW, in LFG/LFR content, do you think people would have been so quick to remove others from the group or raid if there wasn't a system to automatically replace them?
The second question is - do you think the issues would have persisted if the game had have implemented a combat tracker directly in to the client, but restricted it's use to only people within your own guild?
The answer to the first question is I don't think people would be so quick to remove others if the system didn't replace them in the next 3 minutes. As pugging through Normal raiding using the premade group finder is more forgiving and usually groups disband when people start leaving, as kicking isn't as common. In Classic WoW as well as Vanilla WoW people tended to put up with it more often because you would have to fly to a capital city and yell in trade chat you need someone, then travel all the way back to the dungeon. In terms of time investment it was just better to teach the crappy player than kick them for a better replacement.
for the second question as much as i hate admitting it the biggest issue is a human issue. Combat tracker or not gamers tend not to see other gamers (strangers at least) as human beings with emotion behind the screen. They either see them as tools to achieve their goals or inconveniences that hinder their progress. The reason this is so common in WoW is that the game is designed in a way where you don't really have to interact with people. Need guild perks? join a large guild that spams recruiting and never say anything in the guild. Or make your own guild for just you. Need to do end game content just sign up through the group finder or premade group finder and do the mechanics right and you'll never have to say anything. I feel like though combat tracker would be more positive for guilds or groups of close people because instead of relying on damage or healing numbers it could rely on if you're avoiding mechanics or not. Though I answer that not fully being aware of what a combat tracker is i'm just guessing it could be like something DBM but in a way it shows everyone what you're doing.
while dps meters are good to register dps and allow players to improve as dps but they create toxicity in raids/guilds and small groups forcing players to adopt a optimal build regardless of whether they want to or not.
If you are joining a group or a raid, you have an obligation to fulfill your role to the best of your abilities.
If you know you are playing a build that is not the best for the role in the group or raid you have agreed to fill, why would you agree to fill that role?
Sure, you may not be the best player in the world, you may not have the best gear in the world. These are things you cant immediately do anything about.
Running a sub-par build, however, that is something you can change. If you do not change it, it is simply because tou are unwilling.
Why should me and my group or raid have to suffer because you refuse to change to a build that is better suited to the role you agreed to fill?
That said, a game will have a meta with or without combat trackers. There absolutely will be a list of acceptable builds that you must conform to in order to be taken along on most pick up content.
you just stated yourself that you would effectively create the problem that wow and several mmorpgs have because of said trackers. If Intrepid are trying to change the genre then the worse thing to do is to have a tracker that forces optimum builds and kill its own entire line of creativity so early on.
No, I stated that it will exist regardless of trackers existing or not.
That statement has been a fairly consistent theme throughout this whole thread.
Even without a tracker, the game will have a meta - or a list of builds that players generally deem acceptable to use. I can cite at least one example of this happening in another game if you need me to.
What you haven't explained though, is why someone that is wanting to get through content quickly should accept taking along someone that is not I treated in being efficient. When you break it down, this is essentially what you are saying - that those wanting to run content efficiently are less important than those that dont care, and thus all burden should be placed on the shoulders of those that want efficiency.
What I would like to know is - why do you believe the entire burden here should be carried by those wanting efficiency? Why is none of that burden borne by the player that does not care? I mean, they are the one agreeing to join the group to fill the specific role, why should there be anythi g less than the expectation that this player will do their utmost at that role.
I mean, you are right in that there is an issue when those wanting to do content quickly converge with those not concerned with speed at all. This really is an issue.
The thing is, combat trackers aren't needed for this issue to manifest. Removing combat trackers wont remove this issue, as some players will still want to do content as fast as they can, and some players will still not care.
The part I dont understand though - again - is why you are placing the blame for this issue on those wanting to be efficient, rather than on those not caring.
To me, at the absolute best, it is an issue where each party is equally to blame.
0
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
while dps meters are good to register dps and allow players to improve as dps but they create toxicity in raids/guilds and small groups forcing players to adopt a optimal build regardless of whether they want to or not.
What I would like to know is - why do you believe the entire burden here should be carried by those wanting efficiency? Why is none of that burden borne by the player that does not care? I mean, they are the one agreeing to join the group to fill the specific role, why should there be anythi g less than the expectation that this player will do their utmost at that role.
Apart from PUGs how is this an occurrence with frequency worth worrying about?
The best way to figure if something is good or not for a game is how it can be abused. If the abuse is high and destructive, its not meant to be in the game. If the abuse is low and rare, it can be added into the game.
I have two questions for you, if you have the time.
The first is - in WoW, in LFG/LFR content, do you think people would have been so quick to remove others from the group or raid if there wasn't a system to automatically replace them?
The second question is - do you think the issues would have persisted if the game had have implemented a combat tracker directly in to the client, but restricted it's use to only people within your own guild?
The answer to the first question is I don't think people would be so quick to remove others if the system didn't replace them in the next 3 minutes. As pugging through Normal raiding using the premade group finder is more forgiving and usually groups disband when people start leaving, as kicking isn't as common. In Classic WoW as well as Vanilla WoW people tended to put up with it more often because you would have to fly to a capital city and yell in trade chat you need someone, then travel all the way back to the dungeon. In terms of time investment it was just better to teach the crappy player than kick them for a better replacement.
for the second question as much as i hate admitting it the biggest issue is a human issue. Combat tracker or not gamers tend not to see other gamers (strangers at least) as human beings with emotion behind the screen. They either see them as tools to achieve their goals or inconveniences that hinder their progress. The reason this is so common in WoW is that the game is designed in a way where you don't really have to interact with people. Need guild perks? join a large guild that spams recruiting and never say anything in the guild. Or make your own guild for just you. Need to do end game content just sign up through the group finder or premade group finder and do the mechanics right and you'll never have to say anything. I feel like though combat tracker would be more positive for guilds or groups of close people because instead of relying on damage or healing numbers it could rely on if you're avoiding mechanics or not. Though I answer that not fully being aware of what a combat tracker is i'm just guessing it could be like something DBM but in a way it shows everyone what you're doing.
A combat tracker is kind of like DBM, but with a few less features. DBM treads slightly in to the territory of combat assistant.
That said, I agree with everything here.
Games like WoW treat players as if they are disposable, and so it should come as no surprise that players of such games treat each other as disposable.
By contrast, players in games where you are more reliant on your community tend to have players that treat each other significantly better.
I mean, if you are forming a group up to run some content, you aren't likely to invite the guy that was a dick in your last group. If groups are limited to server only, that player is going to run out of people to group with very quickly - whereas in WoW, there is a limitless supply of groups for that player to join.
To me, this says that a guild only combat tracker would result in all the positive aspects of trackers, and none of the negative aspects.
However, the only way for a guild only tracker to exist is if the game developer builds it in to the game client.
This is what my argument during this entire thread is. Would that be an position you agree with?
Literally he just wants them to have trackers so then the next step is it is normalized for everyone to have it besides just being in guild. That way if someone is using one not in game there can't be anything against them TOS wise as they can just argue the game already supports trackers.
The best way to figure if something is good or not for a game is how it can be abused. If the abuse is high and destructive, its not meant to be in the game. If the abuse is low and rare, it can be added into the game.
I have two questions for you, if you have the time.
The first is - in WoW, in LFG/LFR content, do you think people would have been so quick to remove others from the group or raid if there wasn't a system to automatically replace them?
The second question is - do you think the issues would have persisted if the game had have implemented a combat tracker directly in to the client, but restricted it's use to only people within your own guild?
The answer to the first question is I don't think people would be so quick to remove others if the system didn't replace them in the next 3 minutes. As pugging through Normal raiding using the premade group finder is more forgiving and usually groups disband when people start leaving, as kicking isn't as common. In Classic WoW as well as Vanilla WoW people tended to put up with it more often because you would have to fly to a capital city and yell in trade chat you need someone, then travel all the way back to the dungeon. In terms of time investment it was just better to teach the crappy player than kick them for a better replacement.
for the second question as much as i hate admitting it the biggest issue is a human issue. Combat tracker or not gamers tend not to see other gamers (strangers at least) as human beings with emotion behind the screen. They either see them as tools to achieve their goals or inconveniences that hinder their progress. The reason this is so common in WoW is that the game is designed in a way where you don't really have to interact with people. Need guild perks? join a large guild that spams recruiting and never say anything in the guild. Or make your own guild for just you. Need to do end game content just sign up through the group finder or premade group finder and do the mechanics right and you'll never have to say anything. I feel like though combat tracker would be more positive for guilds or groups of close people because instead of relying on damage or healing numbers it could rely on if you're avoiding mechanics or not. Though I answer that not fully being aware of what a combat tracker is i'm just guessing it could be like something DBM but in a way it shows everyone what you're doing.
A combat tracker is kind of like DBM, but with a few less features. DBM treads slightly in to the territory of combat assistant.
That said, I agree with everything here.
Games like WoW treat players as if they are disposable, and so it should come as no surprise that players of such games treat each other as disposable.
By contrast, players in games where you are more reliant on your community tend to have players that treat each other significantly better.
I mean, if you are forming a group up to run some content, you aren't likely to invite the guy that was a dick in your last group. If groups are limited to server only, that player is going to run out of people to group with very quickly - whereas in WoW, there is a limitless supply of groups for that player to join.
To me, this says that a guild only combat tracker would result in all the positive aspects of trackers, and none of the negative aspects.
However, the only way for a guild only tracker to exist is if the game developer builds it in to the game client.
This is what my argument during this entire thread is. Would that be an position you agree with?
DBM was nice but it also felt like it played the game for you in a specific way. I believe Final Fantasy 14 did it a bit better with markets and indications of where not to be in. Having in game help that gives you signals of "you need to do this mechanic" instead of just "Watch youtube videos before joining" would be better for the games health. Imagine yourself going into new content to experience, you're excited to experience it for the first time, but you can't join any group because you don't know the mechanics to the content. No one wants to teach and no one wants anyone who would waste minutes of their time. So the only solution is for the new person to ruin his experience by watching the entire fight and learning from it, then mimicing every action. This isn't really playing a video game this is just simon says. So the new experience is ruined cause you watched the video and there is no overcoming challenge because you spoiled everything by watching the video first. The video solution should only really be used if said new player is constantly failing or struggling at mechanics and explanations through chat isn't getting through to them.
Literally he just wants them to have trackers so then the next step is it is normalized for everyone to have it besides just being in guild. That way if someone is using one not in game there can't be anything against them TOS wise as they can just argue the game already supports trackers.
Wait. I thought I didn't care about the ToS.
If I didnt care about the ToS as you have said, I wouldn't be posting to try and change it. If I am posting to try and change it, I must care about what it says.
I mean, it cant be both.
I want the game to have built in trackers so that literally every person that wants to use them is able to use them.
I am suggesting they be guild basednsonthat those not wanting to deal with them will have mo inherent need to do so.
Comments
If you are playing a game for 4-8 hours a day, people can say you are grinding the game. Listen to what is said, stop assuming your own interpretation of the word grinding and not the context how people are talking about and starting pointless arguments about that for no reason.
You are effectively saying to people I don't like how you talk use my words or i won't understand you, sounds petty and arrogant to me.
The problem with lying as much as you do, is that eventually every person that would support you hears a lie that they have to call you out on because they know the truth, so you just end up with everyone realizing you're a liar.
Both of the people you're talking to right now have played way more MMOs than you, and it shows. Maybe if you played as much as they have, you would realize that.
There will be no benefit to 'grinding' npcs in Ashes of Creation. I'm not sure how you are not getting the concept. Grinding and farming used to go hand in hand. In Ashes, grinding will be pointless but farming will be key. These two concepts are separate because of the exact argument we are having right now. As you can see, you've complicated a simple matter due to your inability to accept that grinding is a facet.
?? What??
I can't agree with you.
You are saying if something can be abused heavily it must be bad, out side of games medicines, in side of games t bag, so do we need to remove all RP gestures or actions now?
Um... to me you're the one being toxic, others argue too but I think we all respect each other experiences thoughts ideas trying to understand each other better to stay at same picture to find the middle ground we suppose to find in this mega thread but I don't see it on you, sorry.
um... nope?
I can play 8 hours animal crossing means I'm grinding it? I don't think so, I just having fun with my virtual cute neighbours and fishing.
That is in fact, how words work.
So far, no one agrees with your definition of 'grinding'. Of course, you can keep using it, but it will have about as much meaning as any of the other words you use in the non-standard way.
Yet again, this all seems to stem from your lack of understanding of BDO of all things. Which is pretty disappointing. I was really hoping you were actually good at that game so we could have at least one solid basis to have discussions from, but it seems not.
Stop letting Mag troll you all, even if he thinks long play sessions are grinds, he's just purposely pretending not to understand how language works so he can call people toxic.
I'll let you know when I remember it, but it was definitely something simple approximately in this area:
"If we agree that re-reading the combat log is a good, POSSIBLY the best way to notice certain issues with your style or build or timing of skills, particularly in groups, do we also agree that this is difficult enough for Bards specifically that they would be 'expected' to do so?"
Which follows on in the obvious way. Generally my understanding is that Bards need meters the most, followed by Mages (in complex games), then Healers, then Tanks, and then you just go down the list for the Damage Dealers. Not because DPS is easy specifically, but because they are not tracking as many things at once.
I actually think (just personal opinion) that part of the reason we see lesser numbers of Tanks, Bards, Healers in some games at higher levels, is related to this. The DPS race is not necessarily 'a place for glory' for everyone, but DPS is easier to objectively claim "I did well enough, X thing died in Y time", so they can use trackers much more sparingly. Figure out the build and the enemy and do the thing.
tl;dr do people really think that Bards in a complex game either:
1) Can easily do all their assessment of how to improve and their effectiveness without carefully looking at the combat log
2) Should have to spend much more time than others going through such a combat log manually (while sometimes not having access to other people's DPS numbers or mitigation values anyway, if we're trying to hide as much as possible)
(My Bard is sick so I'm back on duty on her behalf at least).
I've played more mmorpgs than them lmfao. I can do and say the exact same thing, that is the problem with lying and assuming things about people.
Ironically it makes your own point work against you when you assume something against someone else and say their words are a lie. but hey its easier for people to make something up and say they are right anyone can play that kind of game.
This has nothing to do with BDO, you really jumping into a convo to throw pointless spite?
Yes that is how words work and plenty of people will agree and use the word in that way, just like some people will disagree if it suits their narrative even if them disagreeing makes no sense and they are trying to argue semantics. But its the thing you tracker people have in common, you will do whatever it takes to be toxic.
I think you missed the point, got caught up in your feelings again.
Sometimes people KNOW you're lying or ignorant based on their own experience. You run your mouth in ignorance too OFTEN so you end up making it clear to everyone.
Now, technically, this is a good thing in general, since it lets people learn about your 'loose relationship with the truth' quicker, but I feel like somehow, it does not put you in the... let's say 'Top 10' of most credible people.
I understand how language works do you? Saying you are grinding a mmorpg instead of playing is interchangeable based on peoples use of language. I guess i need to break it down since you don't understand.
It means the mmorpg you are playing is something you do every day or often, working towards whatever goals you have set in the quest to get more gear and such. Generally it be more of a hardcore term than simply playing the game.
Actually, I was going for more of an observation on your education level. I was going to say that if you are indeed older than 12, you may want to talk to a lawyer and see if you have grounds for suing your education provider.
However, after reading Azheraes post above, I think it may just be that you don't understand the difference between the concepts of truth and opinion, rather than a total lack of education (though you do come across as having had no education past age 12 - at least to me).
My point is that you don't need to talk about 'grinding' in the first place, you're just throwing Neurath in your 'toxic' pile because you said something that hit Neurath's bs-meter.
No matter which definition of 'grind' you use, it has nothing to do with Combat Tracker use, likelihood of being 'caught' for it, or anything of that kind.
Have you even ever used a Tracker? I find it difficult to believe that you have this perception (specifically the one where people would be discouraged or worry about being banned) if you have used one. I still don't know if you know what I mean when I say 'parser'.
Come to think of it, I don't know if you know what GitHub is either...
You are literarily just making up bs fantasies in your head because you have a issue where you need to see yourself as right or logical even if you are wrong. Its kind of a big character flaw for you, and its going to make you have a hard to understanding people and forcing your thoughts on their meaning and creating your own meaning to satisfy your need to be logical since you aren't able to understand someone.
Which means you also can't take criticism by the way, you would change someone else's words to fit a narrative in your mind.
The only people here lying would be you and Noaani, you simply don't care what people think just what you think to be is right. Huge flaw btw.
I would be super happy to change and learn if you had ever brought a single piece of evidence other than your gut feelings on something, to basically any argument you've ever made, but the literal only time you ever did this, with a screenshot no less, it was (almost) intentionally misleading.
I will accept the character flaw of 'doesn't take bullshit at face value from people who sling around deceitful information'.
I know that there is no recourse on the forums to stop you from doing this, what you are doing is not likely to even result in a warning, so all I can do is continue to point it out when you do it. I don't even want Intrepid to take any action. You are the sort of person we need to find a way to 'deal with' as a community.
I just wish it didn't take so many posts.
72 hours straight? You need care more about you body it's no healthy.
I can say the same exact thing to you cause issues and trying to create misleading statements. You have already showed you take pride in being "chaotic evil" and trying to create a false narrative on me creating a misleading point when you know you are simply lying.
You don't need factual evidence on the use of the term grinding being interchangeable with playing in the context it was used. You are jumping in attempting to mislead when It was stated how my term grinding was used and even more clarified again. People can say anything is a grind, grind to get max level, Someone saying you are grinding the game instead of playing it.
So honestly ill say it right back at you, in most likely you won't be looked into either in attempting to start conflict over word semantics and attempt to label people as misleading out of your own dislike.
-> while dps meters are good to register dps and allow players to improve as dps but they create toxicity in raids/guilds and small groups forcing players to adopt a optimal build regardless of whether they want to or not.
The benefits of the dps meter doesn't outweigh the negativity and stifling builds it brings in the long run.
Without a combat trackers players will take longer to get through content, requiring time, patience, trial and error and community interaction to solve the problems. That is a given.
Whereas with a combat tracker, content will likely negate the learning time, develop quicker, faster paths to success, narrow the range of attempted builds, require less discussion and thereby take away a lot of the value of the success in achieving, possibly leave classes / builds untouched or excluded and propelling those select players to a higher result much quicker.
This in turn places more pressure on Interpid to stay ahead of the community, "a higher development overhead". Increases the need for new development of more and more content, and/or increasingly complex or varying content as players will reduce their learning time through trial and error and practice, and thereby churn through content much faster. I could strongly see them pushing back on this, especially at early stages as there is so much to do and resolve as it is, let alone try to push the challenge for a select minority of elite players.
With or without, with every micro detail placed on youtube within a short time all laid out, there is going to be a battle to keep things special and challenging as it is!
If you know you are playing a build that is not the best for the role in the group or raid you have agreed to fill, why would you agree to fill that role?
Sure, you may not be the best player in the world, you may not have the best gear in the world. These are things you cant immediately do anything about.
Running a sub-par build, however, that is something you can change. If you do not change it, it is simply because tou are unwilling.
Why should me and my group or raid have to suffer because you refuse to change to a build that is better suited to the role you agreed to fill?
That said, a game will have a meta with or without combat trackers. There absolutely will be a list of acceptable builds that you must conform to in order to be taken along on most pick up content.
you just stated yourself that you would effectively create the problem that wow and several mmorpgs have because of said trackers. If Intrepid are trying to change the genre then the worse thing to do is to have a tracker that forces optimum builds and kill its own entire line of creativity so early on.
The answer to the first question is I don't think people would be so quick to remove others if the system didn't replace them in the next 3 minutes. As pugging through Normal raiding using the premade group finder is more forgiving and usually groups disband when people start leaving, as kicking isn't as common. In Classic WoW as well as Vanilla WoW people tended to put up with it more often because you would have to fly to a capital city and yell in trade chat you need someone, then travel all the way back to the dungeon. In terms of time investment it was just better to teach the crappy player than kick them for a better replacement.
for the second question as much as i hate admitting it the biggest issue is a human issue. Combat tracker or not gamers tend not to see other gamers (strangers at least) as human beings with emotion behind the screen. They either see them as tools to achieve their goals or inconveniences that hinder their progress. The reason this is so common in WoW is that the game is designed in a way where you don't really have to interact with people. Need guild perks? join a large guild that spams recruiting and never say anything in the guild. Or make your own guild for just you. Need to do end game content just sign up through the group finder or premade group finder and do the mechanics right and you'll never have to say anything. I feel like though combat tracker would be more positive for guilds or groups of close people because instead of relying on damage or healing numbers it could rely on if you're avoiding mechanics or not. Though I answer that not fully being aware of what a combat tracker is i'm just guessing it could be like something DBM but in a way it shows everyone what you're doing.
No, I stated that it will exist regardless of trackers existing or not.
That statement has been a fairly consistent theme throughout this whole thread.
Even without a tracker, the game will have a meta - or a list of builds that players generally deem acceptable to use. I can cite at least one example of this happening in another game if you need me to.
What you haven't explained though, is why someone that is wanting to get through content quickly should accept taking along someone that is not I treated in being efficient. When you break it down, this is essentially what you are saying - that those wanting to run content efficiently are less important than those that dont care, and thus all burden should be placed on the shoulders of those that want efficiency.
What I would like to know is - why do you believe the entire burden here should be carried by those wanting efficiency? Why is none of that burden borne by the player that does not care? I mean, they are the one agreeing to join the group to fill the specific role, why should there be anythi g less than the expectation that this player will do their utmost at that role.
I mean, you are right in that there is an issue when those wanting to do content quickly converge with those not concerned with speed at all. This really is an issue.
The thing is, combat trackers aren't needed for this issue to manifest. Removing combat trackers wont remove this issue, as some players will still want to do content as fast as they can, and some players will still not care.
The part I dont understand though - again - is why you are placing the blame for this issue on those wanting to be efficient, rather than on those not caring.
To me, at the absolute best, it is an issue where each party is equally to blame.
That said, I agree with everything here.
Games like WoW treat players as if they are disposable, and so it should come as no surprise that players of such games treat each other as disposable.
By contrast, players in games where you are more reliant on your community tend to have players that treat each other significantly better.
I mean, if you are forming a group up to run some content, you aren't likely to invite the guy that was a dick in your last group. If groups are limited to server only, that player is going to run out of people to group with very quickly - whereas in WoW, there is a limitless supply of groups for that player to join.
To me, this says that a guild only combat tracker would result in all the positive aspects of trackers, and none of the negative aspects.
However, the only way for a guild only tracker to exist is if the game developer builds it in to the game client.
This is what my argument during this entire thread is. Would that be an position you agree with?
But if you look at the actual complaints with trackers, they are all basically only limited to PUGs.
This is why a guild based tracker is the best option, imo.
Wait. I thought I didn't care about the ToS.
If I didnt care about the ToS as you have said, I wouldn't be posting to try and change it. If I am posting to try and change it, I must care about what it says.
I mean, it cant be both.
I want the game to have built in trackers so that literally every person that wants to use them is able to use them.
I am suggesting they be guild basednsonthat those not wanting to deal with them will have mo inherent need to do so.
That is literally it.