Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Having the skill to track when almost no information is relevantly available doesn't mean much. Everyone makes something of everything and having .001% of people using it in a pointless way won't change anything. I can't imagine anything on BDO being tracked being useful, you simply will know what is effective with how advance a combo you can do and the rng elements.
Here, you can use this to make your point.
https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/jn5w7p/test_of_how_elixirs_work_that_apply_defense/
Enjoy.
Uh… I’m not sure if I use the right words, this is so contradictory.
At the beginning this mega thread was discuss about dps meter kind of tool bring toxic behaviors and I think Steven don’t want dps meter and think it have negative effect to player’s behavior(at least when I check this thread last time and please forgive me being a casual follower.), at that time I don’t know they will do the combat log but now I know that, it makes me feel the decisions are so contradictory, I mean don’t you guys think there will be some players look their own combat log and do calculates try to figure out what build able to do how much dps under what situations and then those toxic players still able to do what they’d like to do? So what’s the point of those decisions about no dps meter no addons trackers or not trackers? Those toxic behaviors like you mentioned that using mob to kill dying player don’t even rely on any tracker, if monster behavior more like old school mmo like Lineage 1 you will see players pulling monster train to kill other players or invading towns everyday so to prevent this kind of things no we are going to make monster can’t be pulled away from their roaming zone? I mean isn’t that how mmos become so bad today because game developers so over thinking that players can’t handle these situations thinking that if want to attract more players the game needs to be friendly like the game holding players like holding own baby? I think no matter what reasons you guys stand for to vote going old school/ancient school you won’t get what you want.
My English is bad I don’t know if my understanding is correct or not, if the thing is Intrepid still have this contradictory thinking and community is still dance with it, I thinks this is bad. I said this before toxic players don’t care about there are tools or not they will get what they want no matter what in my opinion and experiences but obviously Steven and lots of players don’t think so.
Your understanding is correct.
Some people in this thread also believe that this is contradictory thinking, and others believe that parsers, trackers, and meters, lead to toxic behaviour.
We all know that zergs will be formed either way. All the antizerg methods will do is prevent appropriate response to a formed zerg because it will take everyone else twice or thrice as long to field a counter zerg. Sometimes I get into debates about paper based systems such as the taverns, but, when experience is placed against the paper based systems, the paper based systems do not stand a chance.
Thanks for your reply. : )
To me no matter which way Intrepid choose to go with either way can make a good game I mean every way has it own pros and cons, but the reason and the mentality behind the decision is very important, I really hope Intrepid can figure it out and make a good game.
By the way I prefer low learning price and entry but high potential to invest time to play kind of game design overall, because I believe most players don't like that they need to do research etc while playing a game or in order to being good at a game right at the beginning.
The point is the small amount of people here and the toxic issue is about allowing people to track other people and what they do and gate keep. So they can watch you and start being toxic towards you if they don't agree with your play style or feel you are effective enough based on what they can see number wise even if that doesn't paint a full picture.
Yeah, I aware that and I still think the same, according what I read in few pages of recently discussion, almost every toxic behavior mentioned in this thread I already saw from Lineage 1 to now which means almost every mmo I played can see same toxic things no matter there are tools or not limited or not, to me it should be focused on what can we do to heavily punish that kind of behavior as it should be punished and as efficient as possible(for example if one player was found continue doing toxic behavior and not willing to stop I will say just delete the account and I'd love to pay another 5 USD month fee to support Intrepid if they do it, or make it optional like a VIP upgrade that when I report a player being toxic to me Intrepid will investigate my case as fast as they can and if it's true they will stop/delete that player's account but charge me another 5 USD month fee I'll definitely upgrade my account.) in stead of do things to prevent it happen efficiently(this prevent things to happen way may able to stop some toxic at some degree, but potentially damaging the game at the same time in my opinion.), the thing is those people so deeply trapped in the toxic issues seems don't aware some ideas they propose potentially driving a lot of player base away and that's the problem.
Second, everyone arguing the point has so far completely neglected to connect combat to toxicity. They have kind of just said that there is a causal effect, but had no reasoning at all to back that up.
Third, gatekeeping isnt negatively affected by combat trackers, it is affected by player competency. If you are a shit player and your guild can not see that, you are preventing your whole guild from accessing content. If they see you are shit and then boot you from the group or raid and carry on without you, then the combat tracker actually opens up more content to more people - just not those that were holding others back.
The simple fact is, if players joining groups or raids take the obligation they have towards the others in their group or raid seriously, there is simply no scope at all for toxicity or gatekeeping to even theoretically occur. It is literally only possible if someone isnt taking their obligation towards others seriously.
Its toxic and everyone knows it, honestly doesn't matter if you don't want to believe that because it doesn't fit what you want to get out of using a meter and viewing all people in your party.
Also, since games exist with combat trackers and communities that are very low in toxicity, it is easily demonstrable that the statement "trackers cause toxicity" is false.
These are things you - and everyone else - just ignore. You basically close your eyes and cover tour ears in order to ignore actual evidence, and just repeatedly tell "everyone knows trackers cause toxicity", while sitting with your legs crossed, rocking back and forward.
Lets say there is dozens of people, that doesn't come close to over 100 people against it. You are living in your own fantasy land really. The general thought is most people think is it only leads to added toxic behavior.
You are in a extreme minority of people that want to start tracking DPS of group members, and minority of trackers as a whole.
And your argument is they can't stop me, there isn't a more toxic line than that.
You seem to forget, most of the people against trackers are all for guild only trackers.
There are, in fact, only about a half dozen people that have actually engaged in this discussion and are still against them. The bulk of those that were initially against then other posted once and were not heard from again, or engaged in discussion and agreed that a guild based tracker was the best option.
The other thing you seem to be blatantly ignoring is the fact that no tracker is straight up not an option. It's either trackers as per basically every other MMO that you have played, or Intrepud building it in to the game client.
They are the two options available to us here. The ONLY two options.
In your mind you like to think that because you refuse to accept you are in the wrong. People are against them period, does it mean they won't play the game or they can deal with some aspect if there is no hope. Being ok with something doesn't mean its ideally with what they want everyone makes sacrifices.
But you don't care what they want, you only care about what you want and trying to comment and use peoples leeway to your advantage while having none yourself. Which that isn't even the case here with half the people being for guild trackers, forums are a 1% of players if that. Most people do not want trackers, do not understand them or use them, or would not want them if they understood certain elements in a larger bulk than people that would want them.
You can keep making things up in your head to convince yourself but again you are the extreme minority, people do not agree with what you want out of them and their bias is against trackers.
Arguments you create saying people will force trackers is not a argument for trackers. Stop trying to use that line to get people to give up what they ideally want. If people used that logic for everything in life it be stupid, like saying there are too many weapons so its too late to manage them for people.
But if you were talking purely about the top 1% of pve players, then maaaybe those are the only 2. I feel like there'll still be some people up there who won't use them.
FFXIV Parsing Plugin (2.6.6.1)Downloads: 18069827
What number would you like to divide by?
What number of 'downloads per person' is required to make your point real?
It doesn't matter how you twist it, people can be downloading it multiple times for whatever the reason. Trying to flex a number based on downloads is pointless information.
I suppose if you're wrong once, you must be willing to be wrong 1000 times. NiKr can decide if it is pointless information or not, I guess.
I'm not dismissing the possibility that literally 18kk people decided to see their fight stats, but I somehow find it hard to believe that this many people care about it that much, especially in a game like FF14.
Would you prefer the numbers from Monster Hunter World? (PC only probably because of the way it works, you wouldn't use it on Console.)
Unique DLs
160,155
Total DLs
234,390
Here you are.
I simply ask you to consider that YOUR perspective is based on 'your gut feeling', whereas I'm not specifically claiming anything other than 'huh, a nontrivial number of people download and probably use these'. You 'not being in the group that does' does not trivialize their existence or impact.
Nice try trying to get away with throwing pointless information that has nothing to do with what people want or how they feel. On top of with download numbers, that is the definition of fake news with people reaching. I can see the point is ignore what people want and the to force it into the game and get people to use it and spread it, it is clear as day.
Yes, I understand that your feelings are very important, and so is the reality they create.
I was addressing someone else's reality. There is no further need to defend yours.
So you are using a DL number to try to say gauge people using it and then you use MH as your example. You can't make this up how lost are you. Honestly at this point I'm questioning your information it seems disingenuous at best. Are we going to bring in call of duty numbers next?
Would you like to use those? I would figure they were unnecessary, doesn't CoD have its own ingame tracker that reports at end of match? I suppose there may be some people out there who want more specific realtime tracking and have their own custom scripts?
I can look on GitHub if you like.
That 160k of MHW is roughly half of its players on steam. And MHW is a game build around complex pve afaik, so it'd make sense that more people would be interested in maximizing their output. But ff14 is mainly about their story, with a ton of other sources of entertainment in the game too. And AoC will be about a ton of pvp, artisan stuff and definitely some pve too, but if a few sources of pve will be beatable by just <10% (allegedly), I'd assume that around 20 maaaybe 30% would be at all interested in even trying. At which point probably the majority of them would need a tracker (though this still depends on the boss design).
In other words, yes, obviously there'll be people who only have 2 options, just like Noaani, but I highly doubt they'd be the majority. But at that point we're just back to the "do Intrepid want FF14's situation" question. Cause as you pointed out, even with ff14's attitude towards meters/addons, that pluggin still has 18kk downloads, even if they might've come from just a mil or two of people.
You know the point you are simply trying to muddy the water. Debating on download numbers is the most pointless thing and doesn't speak much of anything. If it was a subscription type service and that pointed out people actually using it with direct numbers that would be more understandable. Regardless of the case someone can download it and not agree with wanting them or feel they are toxic and will prefer games without them or a focus on them.
Your points just boil down to they can't stop us we will d what we want and eventually able to do it in the open once we get enough people and we don't care what the TOS says. That is toxic in itself, and a clear direction on the mind set of some people that will use trackers for toxic behavior. The fact one of you made a point you have never seen toxic behavior while everyone else says they have seen it is already a red flag. Which shows there is most likely multiple levels of bias at hand layered on top of each other.