My question is, will the dps meter show how much of your damage was due to buffs from the bard or other buffing classes, and will those support classes get credit on the dps meter for all damage caused because of their buffs, damage prevented because of buffs or debuffs, or amounts healed?
No? Then the dps meter is of uneven value and a poor tool for measuring contribution to a group.
Moreover, when I slow, stun or hold a mod so that it doesn't do any damage at all, how will the dps meter take that into account?, since my experience is most gamers have a pronounced tendency not to perceive things that don't happen, even when the thing not happening is a positive.
Imo dps meters are for the kind of nerds who get their enjoyment out of the NBA by studying player and team statistics instead of appreciating the athletic brilliance that goes into creating those statistics. People doing this are mostly focusing on the wrong things. If you're a good party leader, you know who is carrying their weight and who isn't without it.
I don't think I can make it any more plain than this.
hahahaha
I hope you know - as I know - that repeating yourself is not going to be any more convincing.
I understand what you're saying. We disagree on what we want in the game.
This is true, but the thing is, you and I are unlikely to have much cross over in terms of what content we partake in.
If you were to say "In the solo and casual group content that is the only PvE content I am really likely to participate in, I'd like to not have a combat tracker present", then I'd happily agree with you.
If you think the developers of a product that cost tens of millions of dollars to make don't think about these things, and take them all (including available tools) in to account when designing content for the game, then I'm really not sure how to respond to that without insult - but I will say that such a notion is a direct insult to those developers.
If you try and raid in any game that has a combat tracker developed for it, but don't use that combat tracker, you will not get far. This is because the content in that game (at least at the top end) is designed to need it. It isn't a QoL tool, it is a requirement. Developers saw that players have them, and so in order to still challenge players, they develop content with it in mind.
bwahahahaahhahahahahahahahahahaha!!
Apparently, the Ashes devs have thought about this, consider DPS meters and combat trackers to be a type of QoL that they don't want Ashes players to have and have chosen not to include them in their game.
Where we do agree is that players will make mods for DPS meters and combat trackers in any case.
Please explain to me how these two statements can co-exist.
You and I agree that there will be a combat tracker in Ashes - players will make that happen. If you and I can see that, then Intrepid can as well. As they are developing a multi-million dollar product, surely they would be smart enough to take the fact that a combat tracker will exist in to consideration. It isn't about what Intrepid do or do not want so much as what players will make happen.
I still maintain that the best solution for everyone - even for you, Dygz - is for there to be a built in combat tracker at the guild level, where guilds give up options that would be beneficial to other playstyles to get hold of, and that only works on members of your own guild that you are grouped with.
It is the only way I can think of at all to keep a combat tracker out of solo and casual group content.
Ashes will have too many configs of racial, religious and social augments -in addition to weapon abilities and race/subclass combinations- for there to be cookie-cutter builds.
In my experience, the more builds are possible in a game, the more rigid the player base is in sticking to a build someone else has made.
There won't be a half dozen or so builds that people pick from, but there absolutely will be builds that people post and the plurality (if not outright majority) of people will follow.
Path of Exile is a great example of this - it has more possible builds than any other game (online or not) that I've ever seen - and most players will run an entire season on someone else's build.
Strangely (and as a bit of an aside), I get most of my enjoyment from that game by making my own builds. I don't play PoE at the top end, and have no intention of ever doing so. Rather than wanting to be the best I possibly can be, I get more enjoyment out of creating a build based on the gear I've picked up. It's one of the reasons I'm able to point at the Bartle system is load of shit - because there is no way I would play Archeage, EQ2 or Ashes in that way.
ACT in its core only offers a method to unravel meta faster for higher dps and a faster problem solving during raids.
Both of these mechanics in their core lead players to reach the end as soon as possible and are designed for saving time.
I see developers having a choice regarding their content. They have to choose between having content that has a gear cap and when that is overcome the dungeon is basically finished
Then there is the second method, they create content that could take months to solve as players would struggle finding optimal dps builds and mechanics to help them bypass that dps cap.
The problem with this is that once players find that optimal setup (which would take days, maybe weeks at a stretch), the content is all laid flat.
This may seem like an self evident statement, but I feel it is worth stating; without adding complexity to encounters, encounters are simple.
Ashes team seems to be going for the latter.
That way they enable the possibility for more meaningful content, which seems to be one of the foundation pillars of this game.. When was the last time u had to ask how someone got an cool item in a game? When was the last time u fought a boss that u didnt hold self-evident to beat?
The question about the item is an argument against wiki's and such, something I expect to fully exist for Ashes as much as any other MMO out there.
As for the encounter question; EQ2.
As far as I am concerned, that was the most recent release with raid content that even get's a pass mark from me.
The fact that Intrepid have hired several people from that game is the main reason I am excited for Ashes.
There were encounters in that game that could take several days to just figure out the basic strategy - and then take several nights worth of raiding on top of that to execute it.
Even if someone created a 3rd party ACT for Ashes, it would never have reliable data.
You could maybe test ur dps on a dummy, but then it wouldnt be valid in raiding situations. They could have it read dmg numbers, ashes could force the screen to show everyones damage numbers or hide them completely and the program wouldnt work or it would be too unreliable to be used as a guideline.
I assume you and I agree that the game client will give accurate feedback on any damage caused by or dealt to your own character.
If that information is displayed to the player in any way - floating numbers or chat box text - then there is a program out there that will be able to convert that to a file that ACT can read.
This gives players an accurate account of what they have done, but so far you are right in that it won't be accurate in terms of a group or raid.
Thing is, there are other combat trackers out there (I used one briefly many years ago) that has one member of the raid set up a server, and everyone downloads a client that connects to that server. Instead of everyone having their own combat tracker that can only accurately track their own combat, the whole raid has one combat tracker that accurately tracks the whole raid.
The one of these I used briefly many years ago also had built in voice chat - back when vent and TS were the only real options (before mumble even). Also tracked raid attendance to assist with DKP allocation, was actually an over all useful utility program.
I've not seen anything like this first hand for over a decade, so I'm not saying I know that there is something in development that will work for Ashes (unlike a combat tracker in general), but a program like one that I used that long ago will easily deal with the issue you pointed out above (which, granted, was a very good point).
The whole point of the message u quoted is that they can develop content exactly similar to a game where ACT is enabled for players. Optimal builds wont take days or weeks but months, finding some mechanics to help raids bypass mechanics that punish low dps would be mandatory.
You should read my post again with more thought and then reply again...
Even the wiki part is false, I said how someone got...
Im not talking about taking a few days to finish raids but perhaps even months or missing a boss because the node was broken, being motivated to defend the node because u want to finish the raid.
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yeah. Ashes' raid tactics change from session to session, so... using a combat tracker to help figure out strategy is unlikely to work well. If it's taking "days" to assess a strategy from a combat tracker, probably better to pay attention to what the actual mobs are doing and then adjust party combo synergies accordingly than trying to look for the player with the lowest dps. Or lowest gear score for that matter.
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WololoMember, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One
lmao this thread is insane
but a good read
so can yall agree dps meters is a bad idea now ? and that it holds more players off raiding then it gets players into it adds fuel to the fire
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
lmao this thread is insane
but a good read
so can yall agree dps meters is a bad idea now ? and that it holds more players off raiding then it gets players into it adds fuel to the fire
Yes, because agreeing is what we do here
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
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AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The whole point of the message u quoted is that they can develop content exactly similar to a game where ACT is enabled for players. Optimal builds wont take days or weeks but months, finding some mechanics to help raids bypass mechanics that punish low dps would be mandatory.
You should read my post again with more thought and then reply again.
Even the wiki part is false, I said how someone got...
Im not talking about taking a few days to finish raids but perhaps even months or missing a boss because the node was broken, being motivated to defend the node because u want to finish the raid.
Optimal builds will take weeks at the longest, days if people are motivated and focused, or hours once the tracker that is in development for another game is altered to work for Ashes (which may happen in beta).
These things may not be made public straight away, but the composition of most builds on a raid will be figured out in beta.
If the developers of Ashes develop the game with the theory that players won't have access to a combat tracker, and create all of the games supposed high end content around this notion, it will be a very disappointing game indeed.
As well as helping players figure out the best builds (or a good build based on what they want from their character), they also help players manage encounter abilities.
There are many raid encounters from many games that would simply be unmanageable without a tracker of some form. Players are able to deal with a lot more than they are able to mange in terms of encounter mechanics. If the limit of mechanics is what players are expected to be able to manage, then those encounters will not be easy to deal with (read; not challenging).
I'm not sure what your distinction in regards to the item question you had is. When I want to know how someone got an item in an MMO, I look up the item on that games wiki. It tells me how to get the item - that is what wiki's do. If there is some other hidden meaning to your question, let me know, because I can't find it.
Yeah. Ashes' raid tactics change from session to session, so... using a combat tracker to help figure out strategy is unlikely to work well. If it's taking "days" to assess a strategy from a combat tracker, probably better to pay attention to what the actual mobs are doing and then adjust party combo synergies accordingly than trying to look for the player with the lowest dps. Or lowest gear score for that matter.
You realize that a combat tracker provides information in real time, right? So I have information on an encounter as I am fighting it.
To a raid, synergies are just abilities. Unless there is specific reason to nee to use a specific ability at a specific time, then players are free to use what abilities they see fit, when they see fit.
As synergies are just abilities, the above applies to them as well. If we need something specific, we will make that happen, raids already do this and the notion of synergies won't change a single thing in that regard.
In terms of figuring out raid content though, if there is an ability (or synergy) needed as a key component of killing a specific raid encounter, and that ability (or synergy) is present on the raid, most raids would kill that encounter on their third pull - the first to figure out the mechanic, the second to figure out the frequency, the third to execute (note; if it is not a mechanic that instantly kills the raid, the frequency may be figured out on the first pull, meaning the second pull will be the execution).
More likely than that is the need for a raid to have a specific number of a specific class with a specific augment (or perhaps a specific number of any of a few different classes each with their own specific augment that all perform a similar function).
Point is, if the resources to kill an encounter are present in the raid, that raid can expect to kill the encounter unless the encounter is overly complex.
lmao this thread is insane
but a good read
so can yall agree dps meters is a bad idea now ? and that it holds more players off raiding then it gets players into it adds fuel to the fire
Noaani cant even imagine a game without combat tracker, does that count as an addiction?
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
In terms of figuring out raid content though, if there is an ability (or synergy) needed as a key component of killing a specific raid encounter, and that ability (or synergy) is present on the raid, most raids would kill that encounter on their third pull - the first to figure out the mechanic, the second to figure out the frequency, the third to execute (note; if it is not a mechanic that instantly kills the raid, the frequency may be figured out on the first pull, meaning the second pull will be the execution).
More likely than that is the need for a raid to have a specific number of a specific class with a specific augment (or perhaps a specific number of any of a few different classes each with their own specific augment that all perform a similar function).
Point is, if the resources to kill an encounter are present in the raid, that raid can expect to kill the encounter unless the encounter is overly complex.
I expect this to be the case without the need of using a combat tracker.
It's just not going to be based on who is doing the lowest dps.
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LexMember, Phoenix Initiative, Avatar of the Phoenix, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Imagine a game where interaction with your team is more important than numbers on a screen.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In terms of figuring out raid content though, if there is an ability (or synergy) needed as a key component of killing a specific raid encounter, and that ability (or synergy) is present on the raid, most raids would kill that encounter on their third pull - the first to figure out the mechanic, the second to figure out the frequency, the third to execute (note; if it is not a mechanic that instantly kills the raid, the frequency may be figured out on the first pull, meaning the second pull will be the execution).
More likely than that is the need for a raid to have a specific number of a specific class with a specific augment (or perhaps a specific number of any of a few different classes each with their own specific augment that all perform a similar function).
Point is, if the resources to kill an encounter are present in the raid, that raid can expect to kill the encounter unless the encounter is overly complex.
I expect this to be the case without the need of using a combat tracker.
It's just not going to be based on who is doing the lowest dps.
DPS is about 10% of what a competent raid uses a combat tracker for. This is why I refuse to call them "DPS meters".
That said, I also expect everything in the post of mine that you quoted to be able to be done without a combat tracker, because that kind of thing is all black and white.
On raids, the need to use specific abilities (or synergies) at specific times are in order to counter specific things. An example of this would be an encounter that has an AE that they use every 45 seconds, that deals so much damage that no player taking on the encounter would be able to survive. Yet quite strangely, there are abilities that three classes have that allow the caster and the closest 7 other characters to avoid an AE. These abilities on these three classes may have a recast timer of 75 seconds.
The simple conclusion then is that a raid of 40 needs to have 10 people in it of the three classes that have the ability. The raid gets broken down in to groups of 8, each group with two of those classes in it.Each group is to keep close together in order to ensure that there is no overlap in the abilities (which would likely result isn someone not being covered). Each group has one person that avoids the AE on the first cast, and one that avoids it on the second, then by the third cast, the first AE avoid recast is back up.
None of that requires the use of a combat tracker - though a combat tracker can be used to assist with a few things there. However, that encounter is also so simple that I would consider it to be one of the easier raid base population trash mobs - not even an add from a boss encounter.
Anything an encounter can throw at a raid that is able to be solved by the correct use of a single ability or synergy (10 people using the same ability in rotation is a single use) is not something that needs a combat tracker for. Now, needing a specific chain unique to the encounter of 15 - 20 abilities and/or synergies all similar to the above, that may need some assistance in terms of management, and that is where top end raiding would begin.
Noaani cant even imagine a game without combat tracker, does that count as an addiction?
There's no need to imagine it, because a combat tracker will always exist. As I've said in this thread, I know of two combat trackers in development for other games now that will be able to be easily ported to Ashes - and the developer of one of them will be in the beta for this game.
My argument is about having it in game so that Intrepid have control over who is able to use it, and when.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
DPS is about 10% of what a competent raid uses a combat tracker for. This is why I refuse to call them "DPS meters".
Right. And most people think that less than 10% of players who group and players who raid use such tools competently.
Which is precisely the reason the devs are banning them.
DPS is about 10% of what a competent raid uses a combat tracker for. This is why I refuse to call them "DPS meters".
Right. And most people think that less than 10% of players who group and players who raid use such tools competently.
I personally think it's more than that.
I think about 5% of people use them incompetently - these are the only people where there is a valid argument against them.
I think a good 50% of people that use them simply troll with them - these people will troll with or without a combat tracker.
And the rest use them competently.
However, there is a difference between using them competently and being in a position where their use is required.
Someone wanting to come up with their own build within a specific concept - but where the build is as effective as possible - have a valid use for a combat tracker, even though they may not actually need one.
Which is precisely the reason the devs are banning them.
Except they aren't.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well think dps meters and combat tracker would be good for challenge material in pve. But wnated to add that dps meters are really help ful to tanks and healers too. So tanks and healers are going to be left guessing which are vital to group content. Dps going to be in he dark to but really more criticical for a tank cause if he wipes then....same thing for healers being able to put out decent heals no problem in non difficult content but more important in more difficult content.
plus the are other things that on dps meters like damage avoided dodged parried blocked sheilded. Plus things like how often you actually crit and energy gains for abilities the give you mana.
I get it it is not all about dps but those dps meters can be used for lot more than just damage meters.
Yeah, combat trackers will be particularly useful in PvP.
It's actually where I expect to see them used the most of Intrepid don't put one in to the game themselves.
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HumblePuffinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I’m someone that normally loves a dps meter. I’m a fan of knowing where I compare to people. I can see why people wouldn’t like it available all the time though. I have certainly seen it used as a toxic tool before.
I just finished Log Horizon and in the anime the main character was an “enchanter” and basically simulated a raid leader. Everyone else saw limited info on the field but he was able to see everything.
That got me thinking that it may be cool if to have all of that raid information at your disposal you had to be trained. You had to go through a quest chain of sorts to become skilled in leading people through a dungeon, and unlocking this extra info.
While I’m sure a huge amount of the population would have completed this down the line, it would become an optional goal to have. Add some flavor to becoming this battle technician instead of just being able to drop down the meter instantly when you enter the game.
I feel like this, with dps dummies at PvP nodes, or just a general perk at a certain node level to train on could be a decent compromise.
I’m someone that normally loves a dps meter. I’m a fan of knowing where I compare to people. I can see why people wouldn’t like it available all the time though. I have certainly seen it used as a toxic tool before.
I just finished Log Horizon and in the anime the main character was an “enchanter” and basically simulated a raid leader. Everyone else saw limited info on the field but he was able to see everything.
That got me thinking that it may be cool if to have all of that raid information at your disposal you had to be trained. You had to go through a quest chain of sorts to become skilled in leading people through a dungeon, and unlocking this extra info.
While I’m sure a huge amount of the population would have completed this down the line, it would become an optional goal to have. Add some flavor to becoming this battle technician instead of just being able to drop down the meter instantly when you enter the game.
I feel like this, with dps dummies at PvP nodes, or just a general perk at a certain node level to train on could be a decent compromise.
I really like this idea, the only thing I'd do is make it a task that you need to perform to gain access to a combat tracker for a week at which point you can do it again - and this is coming from someone that hates the idea of daily/weekly tasks.
The idea here would be that if the task is substantial enough, only people that actually have a specific use for a combat tracker would actually perform it - but anyone that wants access to it for what ever reason is able to access it without too much trouble.
In terms of people that use it for trolling/griefing, if someone is going to go through the effort of performing the task to get access to the tracker just so they can use it to grief someone, then that person was going to grief someone regardless.
Making it a weekly thing also means that access to it won't ever become something that is expected.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I just finished Log Horizon and in the anime the main character was an “enchanter” and basically simulated a raid leader. Everyone else saw limited info on the field but he was able to see everything.
In Log Horizon, the key to winning battles was learning how to adjust to supporting the abilities each person in the group liked to use, rather than just having each individual go for optimal DPS. Or using the exact same tactics they would if trying to solo.
Comments
No? Then the dps meter is of uneven value and a poor tool for measuring contribution to a group.
Moreover, when I slow, stun or hold a mod so that it doesn't do any damage at all, how will the dps meter take that into account?, since my experience is most gamers have a pronounced tendency not to perceive things that don't happen, even when the thing not happening is a positive.
Imo dps meters are for the kind of nerds who get their enjoyment out of the NBA by studying player and team statistics instead of appreciating the athletic brilliance that goes into creating those statistics. People doing this are mostly focusing on the wrong things. If you're a good party leader, you know who is carrying their weight and who isn't without it.
If you were to say "In the solo and casual group content that is the only PvE content I am really likely to participate in, I'd like to not have a combat tracker present", then I'd happily agree with you.
On raids though, it's different. Please explain to me how these two statements can co-exist.
You and I agree that there will be a combat tracker in Ashes - players will make that happen. If you and I can see that, then Intrepid can as well. As they are developing a multi-million dollar product, surely they would be smart enough to take the fact that a combat tracker will exist in to consideration. It isn't about what Intrepid do or do not want so much as what players will make happen.
I still maintain that the best solution for everyone - even for you, Dygz - is for there to be a built in combat tracker at the guild level, where guilds give up options that would be beneficial to other playstyles to get hold of, and that only works on members of your own guild that you are grouped with.
It is the only way I can think of at all to keep a combat tracker out of solo and casual group content.
In my experience, the more builds are possible in a game, the more rigid the player base is in sticking to a build someone else has made.
There won't be a half dozen or so builds that people pick from, but there absolutely will be builds that people post and the plurality (if not outright majority) of people will follow.
Path of Exile is a great example of this - it has more possible builds than any other game (online or not) that I've ever seen - and most players will run an entire season on someone else's build.
Strangely (and as a bit of an aside), I get most of my enjoyment from that game by making my own builds. I don't play PoE at the top end, and have no intention of ever doing so. Rather than wanting to be the best I possibly can be, I get more enjoyment out of creating a build based on the gear I've picked up. It's one of the reasons I'm able to point at the Bartle system is load of shit - because there is no way I would play Archeage, EQ2 or Ashes in that way.
This may seem like an self evident statement, but I feel it is worth stating; without adding complexity to encounters, encounters are simple. The question about the item is an argument against wiki's and such, something I expect to fully exist for Ashes as much as any other MMO out there.
As for the encounter question; EQ2.
As far as I am concerned, that was the most recent release with raid content that even get's a pass mark from me.
The fact that Intrepid have hired several people from that game is the main reason I am excited for Ashes.
There were encounters in that game that could take several days to just figure out the basic strategy - and then take several nights worth of raiding on top of that to execute it. I assume you and I agree that the game client will give accurate feedback on any damage caused by or dealt to your own character.
If that information is displayed to the player in any way - floating numbers or chat box text - then there is a program out there that will be able to convert that to a file that ACT can read.
This gives players an accurate account of what they have done, but so far you are right in that it won't be accurate in terms of a group or raid.
Thing is, there are other combat trackers out there (I used one briefly many years ago) that has one member of the raid set up a server, and everyone downloads a client that connects to that server. Instead of everyone having their own combat tracker that can only accurately track their own combat, the whole raid has one combat tracker that accurately tracks the whole raid.
The one of these I used briefly many years ago also had built in voice chat - back when vent and TS were the only real options (before mumble even). Also tracked raid attendance to assist with DKP allocation, was actually an over all useful utility program.
I've not seen anything like this first hand for over a decade, so I'm not saying I know that there is something in development that will work for Ashes (unlike a combat tracker in general), but a program like one that I used that long ago will easily deal with the issue you pointed out above (which, granted, was a very good point).
This may seem like an self evident statement, but I feel it is worth stating; without adding complexity to encounters, encounters are simple
/quote
@noaani
The whole point of the message u quoted is that they can develop content exactly similar to a game where ACT is enabled for players. Optimal builds wont take days or weeks but months, finding some mechanics to help raids bypass mechanics that punish low dps would be mandatory.
You should read my post again with more thought and then reply again...
Even the wiki part is false, I said how someone got...
Im not talking about taking a few days to finish raids but perhaps even months or missing a boss because the node was broken, being motivated to defend the node because u want to finish the raid.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
but a good read
so can yall agree dps meters is a bad idea now ?
Yes, because agreeing is what we do here
These things may not be made public straight away, but the composition of most builds on a raid will be figured out in beta.
If the developers of Ashes develop the game with the theory that players won't have access to a combat tracker, and create all of the games supposed high end content around this notion, it will be a very disappointing game indeed.
As well as helping players figure out the best builds (or a good build based on what they want from their character), they also help players manage encounter abilities.
There are many raid encounters from many games that would simply be unmanageable without a tracker of some form. Players are able to deal with a lot more than they are able to mange in terms of encounter mechanics. If the limit of mechanics is what players are expected to be able to manage, then those encounters will not be easy to deal with (read; not challenging).
I'm not sure what your distinction in regards to the item question you had is. When I want to know how someone got an item in an MMO, I look up the item on that games wiki. It tells me how to get the item - that is what wiki's do. If there is some other hidden meaning to your question, let me know, because I can't find it.
You realize that a combat tracker provides information in real time, right? So I have information on an encounter as I am fighting it.
To a raid, synergies are just abilities. Unless there is specific reason to nee to use a specific ability at a specific time, then players are free to use what abilities they see fit, when they see fit.
As synergies are just abilities, the above applies to them as well. If we need something specific, we will make that happen, raids already do this and the notion of synergies won't change a single thing in that regard.
In terms of figuring out raid content though, if there is an ability (or synergy) needed as a key component of killing a specific raid encounter, and that ability (or synergy) is present on the raid, most raids would kill that encounter on their third pull - the first to figure out the mechanic, the second to figure out the frequency, the third to execute (note; if it is not a mechanic that instantly kills the raid, the frequency may be figured out on the first pull, meaning the second pull will be the execution).
More likely than that is the need for a raid to have a specific number of a specific class with a specific augment (or perhaps a specific number of any of a few different classes each with their own specific augment that all perform a similar function).
Point is, if the resources to kill an encounter are present in the raid, that raid can expect to kill the encounter unless the encounter is overly complex.
I agree.
Sorry, it's a no for me.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
It's just not going to be based on who is doing the lowest dps.
You can't make me.
That said, I also expect everything in the post of mine that you quoted to be able to be done without a combat tracker, because that kind of thing is all black and white.
On raids, the need to use specific abilities (or synergies) at specific times are in order to counter specific things. An example of this would be an encounter that has an AE that they use every 45 seconds, that deals so much damage that no player taking on the encounter would be able to survive. Yet quite strangely, there are abilities that three classes have that allow the caster and the closest 7 other characters to avoid an AE. These abilities on these three classes may have a recast timer of 75 seconds.
The simple conclusion then is that a raid of 40 needs to have 10 people in it of the three classes that have the ability. The raid gets broken down in to groups of 8, each group with two of those classes in it.Each group is to keep close together in order to ensure that there is no overlap in the abilities (which would likely result isn someone not being covered). Each group has one person that avoids the AE on the first cast, and one that avoids it on the second, then by the third cast, the first AE avoid recast is back up.
None of that requires the use of a combat tracker - though a combat tracker can be used to assist with a few things there. However, that encounter is also so simple that I would consider it to be one of the easier raid base population trash mobs - not even an add from a boss encounter.
Anything an encounter can throw at a raid that is able to be solved by the correct use of a single ability or synergy (10 people using the same ability in rotation is a single use) is not something that needs a combat tracker for. Now, needing a specific chain unique to the encounter of 15 - 20 abilities and/or synergies all similar to the above, that may need some assistance in terms of management, and that is where top end raiding would begin.
There's no need to imagine it, because a combat tracker will always exist. As I've said in this thread, I know of two combat trackers in development for other games now that will be able to be easily ported to Ashes - and the developer of one of them will be in the beta for this game.
My argument is about having it in game so that Intrepid have control over who is able to use it, and when.
Which is precisely the reason the devs are banning them.
I think about 5% of people use them incompetently - these are the only people where there is a valid argument against them.
I think a good 50% of people that use them simply troll with them - these people will troll with or without a combat tracker.
And the rest use them competently.
However, there is a difference between using them competently and being in a position where their use is required.
Someone wanting to come up with their own build within a specific concept - but where the build is as effective as possible - have a valid use for a combat tracker, even though they may not actually need one.
Except they aren't.
plus the are other things that on dps meters like damage avoided dodged parried blocked sheilded. Plus things like how often you actually crit and energy gains for abilities the give you mana.
I get it it is not all about dps but those dps meters can be used for lot more than just damage meters.
It's actually where I expect to see them used the most of Intrepid don't put one in to the game themselves.
I just finished Log Horizon and in the anime the main character was an “enchanter” and basically simulated a raid leader. Everyone else saw limited info on the field but he was able to see everything.
That got me thinking that it may be cool if to have all of that raid information at your disposal you had to be trained. You had to go through a quest chain of sorts to become skilled in leading people through a dungeon, and unlocking this extra info.
While I’m sure a huge amount of the population would have completed this down the line, it would become an optional goal to have. Add some flavor to becoming this battle technician instead of just being able to drop down the meter instantly when you enter the game.
I feel like this, with dps dummies at PvP nodes, or just a general perk at a certain node level to train on could be a decent compromise.
I really like this idea, the only thing I'd do is make it a task that you need to perform to gain access to a combat tracker for a week at which point you can do it again - and this is coming from someone that hates the idea of daily/weekly tasks.
The idea here would be that if the task is substantial enough, only people that actually have a specific use for a combat tracker would actually perform it - but anyone that wants access to it for what ever reason is able to access it without too much trouble.
In terms of people that use it for trolling/griefing, if someone is going to go through the effort of performing the task to get access to the tracker just so they can use it to grief someone, then that person was going to grief someone regardless.
Making it a weekly thing also means that access to it won't ever become something that is expected.