DPS Meter Megathread

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Deliasz

Tragnar wrote: »

It is truly a shame that many ppl on forums take PvX the same as PvP happens everywhere all the time and you can't escape it and on top of that it is by their beliefs that the open world PvP is superior to any PvE that could possibly exist in the game

(when my belief and both experience is that open world PvP is dogshit)

Hmm you have Plato in your signature and being so narrow minded

In the end Plato wasn't good with the whole concept of "Change".

What is your experience in open-world PvP (no instances/no arenas/no bg)?

Tragnar

I love pvp - i've been playing pvp focused games almost my whole life - like league, dota, cs, apex, valorant a some others to lesser extent - they all have one thing in common - they pretend to be balanced

when I look at open world pvp I see only a bunch of pussies that ambush others when they see their UI number is lower than theirs - or if they just outnumber the victim

However I admit that open world pvp events are pretty badass and a nice experience, because you actually have some goal or objective for it

btw please explain how my subjective opinion of disliking spontaneous open world pvp (which mostly happens with a vast advantage for the initiator) is ignorance

Deliasz

Now I know you don't know what are you talking about.

Those games are PvP but not big scale open-world PvP.
You play shooter games (love them)

Open-world PvX games are centered around one thing "no rules". You can have small or big skirmishes over nothing or over field boss.

Your ignorance is driven from lack of an actual experience in that field.
Unfortunately only handful of games had proper PvX.

Also, in the past we had less classes and less skills so it was more easy to balance stuff.

From my point of view, you just lack of experience in open-world PvX (not PvP).

For the last 10 years people are just playing small team based shooters or moba games.
New world is the latest game introducing an actual open-world PvP but it was too much for many people who grew within WoW or FF14.

Let's hope for the best for all of us

Noaani

Deliasz wrote: »

Now I know you don't know what are you talking about.

Those games are PvP but not big scale open-world PvP.
You play shooter games (love them)

Open-world PvX games are centered around one thing "no rules". You can have small or big skirmishes over nothing or over field boss.

Your ignorance is driven from lack of an actual experience in that field.
Unfortunately only handful of games had proper PvX.

Also, in the past we had less classes and less skills so it was more easy to balance stuff.

From my point of view, you just lack of experience in open-world PvX (not PvP).
For the last 10 years people are just playing small team based shooters or moba games.
New world is the latest game introducing an actual open-world PvP but it was too much for many people who grew within WoW or FF14.

Let's hope for the best for all of us

You are getting open world and PvX mixed up.

These are not the same thing.

I spent many years playing Archeage, and my experience of open world PvP is that people would see my gear score and not attack me, or other guilds would see my guild and not attack us.

However, if I am on an under geared alt, those same people would have no issues attacking me.

Open world PvP is for bottom feeders.

Deliasz

I'm not mixing it at all.

Open-world PvX is the same as Open-world PvP but with mobs included.

So basically I don' care if you are super buffed, as long there is a way to train mobs towards you,
gank you while you grind or do boss.

Also, on the topic.
DPS meter only works if you have brainless single target, PvE...
It will not work on random PvX scenarios.

Even for Castle Siege etc. it will not have any means to be used. Tactic over numbers.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

You are removing the pvp element from the one of the most desire-able forms of content with the best rewards.

2, as a counter/addendum to even my own point above, winning mayoralty of a node is a greater reward than any one item ever could be, so the PvE-less arena does what you are arguing against here even more than what I am suggesting.

You will need to go into detail on how this is the case as the arena is not a part of linear gear progression but you are recommending making instanced pve part of it. Shouldn't the rewards for instanced pve and instanced pvp be the same and not part of linear progression? At least not directly part of it.

Simple.

Being mayor of a node affords one influence.

Influence allows one to get others to fight their fights for them, thus they don't even need gear (my turn for hyperbole).

Additionally, should that node be a metropolis, you get a flying mount.

Sure, being a mayor of a node doesn't advance you in regards to gear progression, but it absolutely has other rewards and perks.

This is a fairly key aspect of Ashes, different rewards come via different activities. Gear is literally only acquired via PvE and crafting.

So your whole argument is around the military nodes election system?

Not at all.

My whole argument is that gear enters the game via PvE, and is redistributed via PvP.

As such, it is perfectly viable to have *some* PvE content that is not subject to PvP during the encounter itself, as long as the rewards from that content are at least as subject to redistribution as anything else.

Since you are trying to argue that the game is PvX and so all content should be subject to PvP at all times, I pointed out an obvious situation in which PvP is very much isolated from PvE, and asked you where your equal complaints about that are.

In principle, if you want to argue PvX means both PvE and PvP together, it shouldnt matter what the rewards are, you should be arguing equally for both.

Since you are not arguing this, and even when this is pointed out you attempted to find a loophole so that you didnt need to take up that argument, you are clearly just arguing for PvP and disguising it as an argument for PvX.

I play MMOs for the world and would prefer nothing to be instanced, pve or pvp. In the past, i have argued against gear being rewarded for instanced pvp.

I'm arguing that no instance, pve or pvp, should be part of vertical progression, at least directly part of it. If you get your content, what's the problem with the rewards being different?

Noaani

Deliasz wrote: »

Also, on the topic.
DPS meter only works if you have brainless single target, PvE...
It will not work on random PvX scenarios.

Even for Castle Siege etc. it will not have any means to be used. Tactic over numbers.

This is entirely untrue.

As in, completely, 100% untrue. So untrue in fact, that it makes me think that you have never used a combat tracker, and only have a vague idea of what they do based on the term "DPS meter", which in itself is incorrect.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

I'm arguing that no instance, pve or pvp, should be part of vertical progression, at least directly part of it. If you get your content, what's the problem with the rewards being different?

I want Ashes to have a raiding scene.

It will not be possible to support a raiding scene without instanced raids.

The amount of content it would require to support just 10 raiding guilds per server (not enough to be considered a raiding scene) would be overwhelming.

As far as rewards go, gear in tiered raiding is a key to the next tier of raiding. The reward for raiding is what is behind the door that key opens - more raiding.

It is only people that do not and have not participated in raiding that see the gear as the reward - and that is an issue they need to resolve them self.

As to the specifics of Ashes, gear is generated in PvE content. As such, PvE content should generate gear. You can argue against this, just know that in doing so, you are arguing against a core design concept of Ashes and is akin to asking for PvE and PvP servers.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

I'm arguing that no instance, pve or pvp, should be part of vertical progression, at least directly part of it. If you get your content, what's the problem with the rewards being different?

I want Ashes to have a raiding scene.

It will not be possible to support a raiding scene without instanced raids.

The amount of content it would require to support just 10 raiding guilds per server (not enough to be considered a raiding scene) would be overwhelming.

As far as rewards go, gear in tiered raiding is a key to the next tier of raiding. The reward for raiding is what is behind the door that key opens - more raiding.

It is only people that do not and have not participated in raiding that see the gear as the reward - and that is an issue they need to resolve them self.

As to the specifics of Ashes, gear is generated in PvE content. As such, PvE content should generate gear. You can argue against this, just know that in doing so, you are arguing against a core design concept of Ashes and is akin to asking for PvE and PvP servers.

There are also people who have raided and don't see content being gated by gear as compelling. If you really think there needs to be some kind of farming requirement to participate in raiding activities then i'd rather look for a different option besides gear level, something like attunement quests. Something like the amulet quest you had to do in A1, that negated the fire dragon's aura so you could fight it.

You have to understand the power creep issues that would come with constantly increasing the gear's power from raiding and that it would affect the items in the world.

Ludullu

I'd say "fuck dps" and go with "add more utility stuff". Add a fire add that requires a water mage/augment to put out, and w/o putting out the add the farm can't continue. Add a frozen lake under a mud golem and make players thaw the ice in order to make the golem start dissolving, but you'd have to first put some fire resistances onto the boss so that his clay body wouldn't harden from all the fire attacks that melted the lake.

That kind of shit is way more fun to me than just having dps/gear checks. And you could have soooooo damn many utility things and on a variety of scales, from needing just one person to the whole 40-man raid having to make certain actions in a certain order against certain enemies/things/environment - which would be an utter hell to properly manage, but would be a much bigger test of skill and endurance of everyone involved than just "go farm some gear and keep up your rotations and we'll win".

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

I'm arguing that no instance, pve or pvp, should be part of vertical progression, at least directly part of it. If you get your content, what's the problem with the rewards being different?

I want Ashes to have a raiding scene.

It will not be possible to support a raiding scene without instanced raids.

The amount of content it would require to support just 10 raiding guilds per server (not enough to be considered a raiding scene) would be overwhelming.

As far as rewards go, gear in tiered raiding is a key to the next tier of raiding. The reward for raiding is what is behind the door that key opens - more raiding.

It is only people that do not and have not participated in raiding that see the gear as the reward - and that is an issue they need to resolve them self.

As to the specifics of Ashes, gear is generated in PvE content. As such, PvE content should generate gear. You can argue against this, just know that in doing so, you are arguing against a core design concept of Ashes and is akin to asking for PvE and PvP servers.

There are also people who have raided and don't see content being gated by gear as compelling. If you really think there needs to be some kind of farming requirement to participate in raiding activities then i'd rather look for a different option besides gear level, something like attunement quests. Something like the amulet quest you had to do in A1, that negated the fire dragon's aura so you could fight it.

You have to understand the power creep issues that would come with constantly increasing the gear's power from raiding and that it would affect the items in the world.

The notion that gear being a key = farming is false.

Developers extend how long a guild needs to kill an encounter in order to get away with slower development. If a guild can kill a every mob in a tier of encounters once a week but only need to kill that tier 4 to 6 times in order to move on to the next tier, that isnt an issue. If they need to kill that tier 10 to 12 times (or more, in some games) it is an issue.

People that say they dont like gear as a gating mechanism are playing games where gear is used as a slow down mechanism, not a gate.

This just adds to why more raid encounters are needed. The people you are talking about are actually against having to repeat the same encounters over and over. Literally the only remedy to that is to give them more content.

ItsFayne

With the recent combat update, one major concern is DPS meters. While there is no API available, there will be people who can program a screengrab and overlay to pull numbers. (IE, pull all green numbers shown). What can intrepid do to prevent DPS meters.

Ludullu

All they can do is to say "we disapprove of them". Of course people will make and use them, but the overall community will follow what devs support. As long as the 3rd party janky non-api meters don't influence day-to-day gameplay of normal players - I think everything will be fine.

ItsFayne

Hard disagree. I just want them to actively fight against them. Huge advantages out there with DPS meters.

NiKr wrote: »

All they can do is to say "we disapprove of them". Of course people will make and use them, but the overall community will follow what devs support. As long as the 3rd party janky non-api meters don't influence day-to-day gameplay of normal players - I think everything will be fine.

Ludullu

ItsFayne wrote: »

Hard disagree. I just want them to actively fight against them. Huge advantages out there with DPS meters.

They are already doing that with not giving out api and being against addons. Outside of that they can't really do anything against people who can use a pen and a paper.

Wildberry

It would be good if they took FFXIV's approach. They don't want you to use them and if they catch you using them you get a game vacation. But, you can still use them, just keep it to yourself. Basically, don't say, don't be a jerk to someone whose DPS is lower than you think it should be, just use it for your own personal info to maybe better your DPS.

Ryve

If they put any kind of combat damage information in the game, then people can make a damage meter addon, even without official support. Which, every MMO either has a combat log, or scrolling combat text, or both. Just the way it is.

Noaani

ItsFayne wrote: »

With the recent combat update, one major concern is DPS meters. While there is no API available, there will be people who can program a screengrab and overlay to pull numbers. (IE, pull all green numbers shown). What can intrepid do to prevent DPS meters.

These already exist - people are using trackers to parse the combat in the combat update video. This has been a thing for a while.

Literally the only way to stop people like myself from having a combat tracker is to not have any information at all available to players.

Is it an advantage? Yes, that is why we use them.
Is it an unfair advantage? No, you can use one as well.

If combat trackers exist, provide an advantage and you refuse to use one, that is you turning down an advantage, not someone else gaining an advantage.

Vlhadus

Please add the ability for people to make DPS meters. FFXIV has it and the casuals and the hardcore co-exist pretty well. I believe we can culture that same principle here.

Noaani

Vlhadus wrote: »

Please add the ability for people to make DPS meters. FFXIV has it and the casuals and the hardcore co-exist pretty well. I believe we can culture that same principle here.

EQ2 has it as well, and it is actually a boon to the community.

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