Spoilers minimize screen space. Opening spoiler is not tedious; you're just mad.
Going to quote you pre-edit here.
Settings > Preferences > Quote settings
Using a spoiler is essentially overriding that setting. You are forcing your preference on to all, rather than letting us each decide our own preference.
As I said, spoiler use like you are doing is fine on forums where the above is not an option, but is pointless and irritating on a forum where posters have this control themselves.
Data analysis can happen it just shouldn't be given tools that remove all the work of it.
We already have all the tools. What I am asking for is for Intrepid to implement those tools rather than leaving us to rely on third party tools.
This is purely so that Intrepid retains control of what can and can not be done with those tools, rather than leaving it up to a third party to decide for us all.
As to the rest of what you have said, you claimed that you want mobs with variable health (as do I), but you also claimed that you want people to use mobs to determine how much damage an ability does.
I assume you have totally missed how you kind of can't have both.
However, your wishes aside, we know that we will have a combat log in the game, Steven has made that clear in this very thread.
I can see Training Dummies or Training Posts [et cetera] being a controlled way to measure damage output but I'd rather they be destroyed by "the method of data acquisition".
Resistances may be rather non-linear and there could be a lot of interaction between weapon/damage type and the nature of the target's resistances (blunt vs sharp?). Daggers against a tree may be ineffectual and be no where near representative of their damage against Fleshy stuff.
Having that be a natural difficulty for data acquisition would be good imo because it's cooler.
I can see Training Dummies or Training Posts [et cetera] being a controlled way to measure damage output but I'd rather they be destroyed by "the method of data acquisition".
Resistances may be rather non-linear and there could be a lot of interaction between weapon/damage type and the nature of the target's resistances (blunt vs sharp?). Daggers against a tree may be ineffectual and be no where near representative of their damage against Fleshy stuff.
Having that be a natural difficulty for data acquisition would be good imo because it's cooler.
This is another one of those things that would be fine if added to the game, but would still result in players using combat trackers.
Spoilers minimize screen space. Opening spoiler is not tedious; you're just mad.
Going to quote you pre-edit here.
Settings > Preferences > Quote settings
I can set the forum to not show me any quotes if that is what I care about, or I can set it to show me many quotes if that is what I care about.
Using a spoiler is essentially overriding that setting. You are forcing your preference on to all, rather than letting us each decide our own preference.
As I said, spoiler use like you are doing is fine on forums where the above is not an option, but is pointless and irritating on a forum where posters have this control themselves.
Data analysis can happen it just shouldn't be given tools that remove all the work of it.
We already have all the tools. What I am asking for is for Intrepid to implement those tools rather than leaving us to rely on third party tools.
This is purely so that Intrepid retains control of what can and can not be done with those tools, rather than leaving it up to a third party to decide for us all.
As to the rest of what you have said, you claimed that you want mobs with variable health (as do I), but you also claimed that you want people to use mobs to determine how much damage an ability does.
I assume you have totally missed how you kind of can't have both.
However, your wishes aside, we know that we will have a combat log in the game, Steven has made that clear in this very thread.
I cannot minimize the quote automatically no matter what, and the text is enlarged.
I didn't design the forum and have Spoiler. Nesting spoilers is what I'll start doing.
In the case where combat logs don't exist you're relying on what data to feed it???
The mob benchmark is more about averaging things out over time to get a good idea of someone's or something's power/toughness and can't be avoided since health variability will be averaged out.
You say a rough estimation of numbers from Inspect won't replace Trackers but then checking how many hits it takes to kill something is "not something you can have" when trying to get rid of Tracker?????????????????????????
Combat log? That sucks. A big one.
I hope Intrepid fiddles with numbers on the weekly.
Plenty of things could realistically be a bit tougher, a bit more fragile. . . armor could scale a bit differently here and there. . . be a crooked power/resist increase instead of a smooth curve. . . ranges could be weighted and that weighting change based on this and that hidden mechanic. . . . ..
There's plenty to do.
For instance I can imagine weighting in a weapon's damage range being affected by the enemy's lack of or prevalence of "weak spots" and the user's lack of or prevalence of "stamina" and weapon skill perhaps raising the damage floor a bit in weighting rather than literal damage floor.
Everything could be organic and intuitive enough that you don't need to disassociate 'data' from 'game'.
I can see Training Dummies or Training Posts [et cetera] being a controlled way to measure damage output but I'd rather they be destroyed by "the method of data acquisition".
Resistances may be rather non-linear and there could be a lot of interaction between weapon/damage type and the nature of the target's resistances (blunt vs sharp?). Daggers against a tree may be ineffectual and be no where near representative of their damage against Fleshy stuff.
Having that be a natural difficulty for data acquisition would be good imo because it's cooler.
This is another one of those things that would be fine if added to the game, but would still result in players using combat trackers.
Completely blocking the ability to "track" [recognize magnitude/ quantity] is not the entire point, hence "Inspect".
But with increased difficulty for data analysis you can't trust the third party tools to remove the work of Analyzing the Situation and 'Data' for You.
As Such You will suffer your reliance on said Tools when instead you should be using 'Inspect' and reacting to the situation or otherwise delegating such Leadership or Analysis to someone competent for the Task.
By looking at damage while things are going on you can respond, adapt, react, and perhaps run when you realize your crew is not equipped to take on something.
The things that have been discussed here would only move the Responsibility and Capacity to Excel from Tool to -> Person.
That is better game design; it is more fun and immersive. It is weightier. The weight needs to be in the right place -> on the shoulders of competent capable people.
Right, so what we have learned here is that you are someone that is more than happy to literally force your will on to others, without them having a say in the matter.
That is the behavior you have displayed with spoilers/quotes. You now know that players are able to set it how they want, but your result is basically "fuck them and what they want, I'll do what I want and they can just deal".
You are also of the same mindset in regards to trackers. You think that if a system fulfills the way you would use a combat tracker, then everyone should be happy with it - and fuck them if they are not.
You say a rough estimation of numbers from Inspect won't replace Trackers but then checking how many hits it takes to kill something is "not something you can have" when trying to get rid of Tracker?
No.
I said using how many hits it takes to kill something is not a valid data point, when the hit points of the thing you are hitting is variable. You are trying to measure a variable based on another variable - that isn't a measurement, it is a guess.
In order to measure something, you need a known value to measure it against. If I gave you a piece of string and asked you to use it to measure a piece of wood, all you can do is tell me how many pieces of string the woods length is - you can't give me an actual, accurate answer in any meaningful way.
Keep in mind, you said you want variable hit points. That deprives you of a static, known value to make a measurement against.
I hope Intrepid fiddles with numbers on the weekly.
Plenty of things could realistically be a bit tougher, a bit more fragile. . . armor could scale a bit differently here and there. . . be a crooked power/resist increase instead of a smooth curve. . . ranges could be weighted and that weighting change based on this and that hidden mechanic. . . . ..
There's plenty to do.
For instance I can imagine weighting in a weapon's damage range being affected by the enemy's lack of or prevalence of "weak spots" and the user's lack of or prevalence of "stamina" and weapon skill perhaps raising the damage floor a bit in weighting rather than literal damage floor.
Everything could be organic and intuitive enough that you don't need to disassociate 'data' from 'game'.
Hence no need for Trackers lmao
This will result in the work people do with a tracker being both more important, and more frequent. People will want to know what the changes each week are.
In other words, it will make tracker use even more prevalent.
Right, so what we have learned here is that you are someone that is more than happy to literally force your will on to others, without them having a say in the matter.
I literally cannot minimize quotes on my screen without manually doing so and neither can others that don't want the extra-large quotes taking up screen space.
The spoilers are a convenience for others and yet you don't recognize this because you can't imagine another's experience of the forum.
So blame the Intrepid forums ffs.
If you tested out the setting you talk about you'll notice the point of fact I mention isn't a lie.
You're so mad about the tracker argument you start crying how fucked you are.
It's also a stylistic or choice of convenience. I can simply not quote, if that will piss you off more.
You say a rough estimation of numbers from Inspect won't replace Trackers but then checking how many hits it takes to kill something is "not something you can have" when trying to get rid of Tracker?
No.
I said using how many hits it takes to kill something is not a valid data point, when the hit points of the thing you are hitting is variable. You are trying to measure a variable based on another variable - that isn't a measurement, it is a guess.
Data analysis involves analysis and such measurements. My point is you can still analyze data with variables and ranges.
Rather than a tool of convenience.
Over time the number of hits it takes averages out and you get a max minimum. This is data. It can be analyzed. I am fine with this.
But it undermines braindead Trackers.
In order to measure something, you need a known value to measure it against. If I gave you a piece of string and asked you to use it to measure a piece of wood, all you can do is tell me how many pieces of string the woods length is - you can't give me an actual, accurate answer in any meaningful way.
This is a terrible example and I will have to inform you you are nowhere near a Data Analyst because you hate the actual work of analyzing.
Hence you want a braindead tool of convenience that ruins the work of being decent at a game and ruins the immersion of experiencing it.
Knowing that killing one mob takes 1 hit and another takes 3 hits is data. Knowing something takes 3 hits sometimes 4 hits is data.
The consistent measures are damage/ health ranges and ability/ mob is a restricted variable range; averaging it out with repetition averages that out and you have max/ minimum for every mob and can try and figure out which abilities have less damage range and which mobs have less health/resistance range while you're at it.
Looking at how many hits it takes others to kill something is data as well and facilitates analysis.
Seconds and Inches are arbitrary but CONSISTENT measurements (given you have a precise timer/ ruler). Your abilities have range but knowing something is in
the scale of 1 second or 5 seconds doesn't require a precise timer.
the scale of 1 foot or 10 feet doesn't require a ruler.
Your brain can time and recognize distance just fine; if it doesn't then you have room to improve.
So what is the issue? You do not need a Tracker to remove the play and work of the game. Presence or Lack thereof is a design choice; and layers/dynamics add depth.
If you do not have the will to try and figure everything out then DON'T it's a game not a JOB.
I hope Intrepid fiddles with numbers on the weekly.
Plenty of things could realistically be a bit tougher, a bit more fragile. . . armor could scale a bit differently here and there. . . be a crooked power/resist increase instead of a smooth curve. . . ranges could be weighted and that weighting change based on this and that hidden mechanic. . . . ..
There's plenty to do.
For instance I can imagine weighting in a weapon's damage range being affected by the enemy's lack of or prevalence of "weak spots" and the user's lack of or prevalence of "stamina" and weapon skill perhaps raising the damage floor a bit in weighting rather than literal damage floor.
Everything could be organic and intuitive enough that you don't need to disassociate 'data' from 'game'.
Hence no need for Trackers lmao
This will result in the work people do with a tracker being both more important, and more frequent. People will want to know what the changes each week are.
In other words, it will make tracker use even more prevalent.
No it will not. Or maybe it will!
Because you can simply play the game and use basic intuition and competencies in understanding the data experience provides!
Unless you are so bad at it that you NEED the tracker in which case you can beg on Discord the Data Analyst grad(s)/hobbyists to please please help you! And maybe they keep getting it wrong or Intrepid keeps changing stuff up!
Or people will ask the smart Guild Leader to guide them and lead raids! Or to lead a quest! Or hope the smart Raid Leader will lead this weeks raid! Or hope the smart guy will help them deal with a quest!
Or ask someone who has killed a lot of Goblins about them! Communication!
All in all it's a win and people can excel or organize based on their competencies or lack thereof.
No one has explained whether their position is to have no indication of other's damage/ healing so your positions have remained ambiguous.
My position has been very clear for 150 pages.
I want - and will have - a combat tracker in Ashes that will allow me to analyze the games combat system, create builds for others players, find bugs and report them to Intrepid with objective data, and analyze and defeat content.
None of that involves having an indication of what other people are doing during combat - because that is a misuse of a combat tracker and I simply do not care at all about it. In fact, if you take my suggestion in full (guild based tracker), a part of it involves the tracker not giving players any data on a fight until that fight is over - regardless of who wins or loses. That is because that information isn't important at all at that point in time.
If you are paying any attention at all to a combat tracker during combat, you are using your tracker wrong.
I'm literally one of the singular people against trackers in Ashes. And even after discussing them for several dozen pages, no argument has truly swayed me to the other side.
Because you can simply play the game and use basic intuition and competencies in understanding the data experience provides!
Unless you are so bad at it that you NEED the tracker in which case you can beg on Discord the Data Analyst grad(s)/hobbyists to please please help you! And maybe they keep getting it wrong or Intrepid keeps changing stuff up!
Or people will ask the smart Guild Leader to guide them and lead raids! Or to lead a quest! Or hope the smart Raid Leader will lead this weeks raid! Or hope the smart guy will help them deal with a quest!
Or ask someone who has killed a lot of Goblins about them! Communication!
All in all it's a win and people can excel or organize based on their competencies or lack thereof.
So, the way you say this makes it seem as if you literally have no clue how people use a tracker, or what they do with the information they get from using one.
Sure, you can play the game without a tracker if you want. No one is stopping you, and their existence isn't forcing you to use one - nor is it forcing you to care that someone else is using one.
So, in the above quote, you talk about how players should just ask the player that has killed a lot of goblins, and that's good because communication between players and all.
Yet, for some reason, you are deriding the player that asks the person that analyzed data about things. That is still communication, yet for some reason you seem to think this is a bad thing, where as asking a player that has killed goblins is a good thing.
To me, both are communication, and so both are the same. To suggest this is not the case is just outright odd.
As a guild/raid leader, I do indeed have people that ask me to guide/lead them on content. Since I am then responsible for over 3 hours of player time for every 5 minutes of time that is used unproductively (40*5), I make a point of being as efficient with the time of my guild/raid as I can.
Perhaps you are different. Perhaps you are happy to lead 40 people without a damn clue as to what is going on. That's cool, if those people continue to follow you, more power to you. However, I will continue to lead my guild in as efficient manner as I can.
The worth of a person is not up to democratic vote.
And yet I will vote on your worth now, because I think my vote does count.
Fixed that for you.
Everyone is judging others all the time, including yours. I don't need people to say it to know it. Evaluating someone's skill at something is a judgement of 'worth' for example. Prioritizing family's life over another's is a judgement of 'worth'.
He chose not to elaborate and discuss something. He has nothing to say to me or about the topic.
Why would I say something redundant. He can participate in the topic or commit to his opt-out; or feud. Like you.
I have to elaborate and explain this shit so I don't get banned cursing you out.
The word "toxic" is used by those who cannot adapt and cry. They leave and play other MMOs.
as i said, on of biggest topic about parsers in FFXIV ended with nearly all people (aside the anti) to consider the "anti parser" being the real toxic... because they explained that it was unacceptable to be kicked/refused from party due to parser/fflogs, and when some people tried to say they only saw kick on farm party... the anti confirmed it was also unacceptable kick.
This is also one of the topic with the "you don't pay my sub" ... message mostly by people other had to carry thru contents (mainly in raid 24 where... sometime... it is really special, maybe more than LFR)
But toxicity is not really due to this : FFXIV limit it a lot with a clear differences between farm and learning parties. Also, in wow, there is the weekly run, it becomes on the weekly todo list, with a psychologic effect that "i HAVE to do it" even on first week, so people try to infiltrate parties with high chance to success early after each patch. On FF, the "weekly" is a thing for story mode raid, and raid 24. which are never a problem (LFR difficulty), the xtrem primal could even be ignored if you don't care weapons, and it is more a farm than weekly kill to get what you want on primal xtrems, so if you wait 2 month... you didnt lose some "drop chance" for the item you want
So on one game everyone try to get some weekly kill on content needing a decent efficience, on the other... not. On the first we can find toxicity, on second... not. Both game got whiners for
If you don't know a target has high physical resistance then notice the low physical damage to them you can respond/ react. It requires decent Multi-tasking and multi-tasking can be rewarded in Live Combat; who is to say differently without being petty?
It remains a bad use of tracker.
A tracker will be able to show lot of various informations, but... because you don't have a large tv to display all tracker information, you only see one... The most accurate for a DPS during fight would be to see the cumulativ damages or the average DPS of each of his skills. And it would help to see that, on this ennemy, there is high physical res (because elemental damage are normal, while physical skills are lower than on other ennemies)
But... it still lack of accuracy on information, there could be lot of explanation (high physical resist on specific timing ? but this can be seen with damage text scroll when you hit, in middle of screen, not on tracker). And you end up to lose your focus from the fight for a few seconds during it... You also have a corner of your screen blind, rarely usefull, but it remains a risk to miss information of anything happening on this part.
For most usefull information to react during fight, while discovering the boss and trying to understand the strategy, there will be the scrolling text, knowing your "normal damages" will help a lot to see if those numbers are low or high, and adapt. Tracker will allow you analysis for the whole fight ,and a deeper understanding of some element.
Everyone is judging others all the time, including yours. I don't need people to say it to know it. Evaluating someone's skill at something is a judgement of 'worth' for example.
Wait, so are you saying that you think the worth of a person is decided by others, or isn't decided by others?
Because you can simply play the game and use basic intuition and competencies in understanding the data experience provides!
Unless you are so bad at it that you NEED the tracker in which case you can beg on Discord the Data Analyst grad(s)/hobbyists to please please help you! And maybe they keep getting it wrong or Intrepid keeps changing stuff up!
Or people will ask the smart Guild Leader to guide them and lead raids! Or to lead a quest! Or hope the smart Raid Leader will lead this weeks raid! Or hope the smart guy will help them deal with a quest!
Or ask someone who has killed a lot of Goblins about them! Communication!
All in all it's a win and people can excel or organize based on their competencies or lack thereof.
So, the way you say this makes it seem as if you literally have no clue how people use a tracker, or what they do with the information they get from using one.
Sure, you can play the game without a tracker if you want. No one is stopping you, and their existence isn't forcing you to use one - nor is it forcing you to care that someone else is using one.
So, in the above quote, you talk about how players should just ask the player that has killed a lot of goblins, and that's good because communication between players and all.
Yet, for some reason, you are deriding the player that asks the person that analyzed data about things. That is still communication, yet for some reason you seem to think this is a bad thing, where as asking a player that has killed goblins is a good thing.
To me, both are communication, and so both are the same. To suggest this is not the case is just outright odd.
One is zerging to a singular person or persons in real life.
Another keeps the spread of competencies out throughout the game to varying individuals, usually in proximity or citizen to an area [thus having more expertise on that area].
Anyone can communicate and that is part of the game. Breaking the game shouldn't be easy.
A bunch of lazy people unwilling to improve, averse to playing the game simply because they're not good or don't like video games???, shouldn't be accommodated and rewarded.
I'm fine with failing multiple times in a group. Trying to appeal to those that aren't fine with that is just backwards.
Trying to appeal to those that don't want to play the game LOL say goodbye to your playerbase if you do such as a dev.
As a guild/raid leader, I do indeed have people that ask me to guide/lead them on content. Since I am then responsible for over 3 hours of player time for every 5 minutes of time that is used unproductively (40*5), I make a point of being as efficient with the time of my guild/raid as I can.
Perhaps you are different. Perhaps you are happy to lead 40 people without a damn clue as to what is going on. That's cool, if those people continue to follow you, more power to you. However, I will continue to lead my guild in as efficient manner as I can.
You can still be as efficient as you possibly can based on your efforts to be effective, knowledge of the game, and so forth.
Everyone in the game is trying to be more effective and/or efficient.
The game should not be so formulaic or repetitive though; and health/ damage/ whatever variability for individual mobs of the same 'kind' is part of that.
Accurate visages (e.g. Buffalo high health, fire causing burn, deadly looking creatures being deadly) is part of immersion and gives players the clue as to the nature of said Content.Thus undermining the use of third party tools and motivation to create them.
You may need to ask around. You may need Officers that are good at certain content. You may need to be an Officer or whatever instead of a Guild Leader because there are others that are better than you and/or absorbing people from your utilitarian guild. Players may 'need' to find those who know better. They will have to ask around who has cleared something or killed a lot of something. Or they simply try and don't turn blue or red from failing.
Leadership can still exist. Organization can still exist.
There's no necessity for trackers and it cheapens the game.
The word "toxic" is used by those who cannot adapt and cry. They leave and play other MMOs.
as i said, on of biggest topic about parsers in FFXIV ended with nearly all people (aside the anti) to consider the "anti parser" being the real toxic... because they explained that it was unacceptable to be kicked/refused from party due to parser/fflogs, and when some people tried to say they only saw kick on farm party... the anti confirmed it was also unacceptable kick.
This is also one of the topic with the "you don't pay my sub" ... message mostly by people other had to carry thru contents (mainly in raid 24 where... sometime... it is really special, maybe more than LFR)
But toxicity is not really due to this : FFXIV limit it a lot with a clear differences between farm and learning parties. Also, in wow, there is the weekly run, it becomes on the weekly todo list, with a psychologic effect that "i HAVE to do it" even on first week, so people try to infiltrate parties with high chance to success early after each patch. On FF, the "weekly" is a thing for story mode raid, and raid 24. which are never a problem (LFR difficulty), the xtrem primal could even be ignored if you don't care weapons, and it is more a farm than weekly kill to get what you want on primal xtrems, so if you wait 2 month... you didnt lose some "drop chance" for the item you want
So on one game everyone try to get some weekly kill on content needing a decent efficience, on the other... not. On the first we can find toxicity, on second... not. Both game got whiners for
If you don't know a target has high physical resistance then notice the low physical damage to them you can respond/ react. It requires decent Multi-tasking and multi-tasking can be rewarded in Live Combat; who is to say differently without being petty?
It remains a bad use of tracker.
A tracker will be able to show lot of various informations, but... because you don't have a large tv to display all tracker information, you only see one... The most accurate for a DPS during fight would be to see the cumulativ damages or the average DPS of each of his skills. And it would help to see that, on this ennemy, there is high physical res (because elemental damage are normal, while physical skills are lower than on other ennemies)
But... it still lack of accuracy on information, there could be lot of explanation (high physical resist on specific timing ? but this can be seen with damage text scroll when you hit, in middle of screen, not on tracker). And you end up to lose your focus from the fight for a few seconds during it... You also have a corner of your screen blind, rarely usefull, but it remains a risk to miss information of anything happening on this part.
For most usefull information to react during fight, while discovering the boss and trying to understand the strategy, there will be the scrolling text, knowing your "normal damages" will help a lot to see if those numbers are low or high, and adapt. Tracker will allow you analysis for the whole fight ,and a deeper understanding of some element.
Bad use of tracker? Good.
How about good use of in-game information? Good.
Without being told ## damage;
By making it baseline more difficult to tell in general;
you can just play the game and try and figure stuff out on your own by playing, without ever worrying that hardcore lifers will metagame to the upteenth in Discords;
unless they have literal PhDs and are suffering a romantic breakup they need to work out through shitting on the game.
Use trackers and you will always be relying on other's expertise and that can fail. . . often. Or always. lol.
So basically if trackers are practically dog shit because people can't practically make them. . . it's a wash out.
Increasing immersive ways to gain info and immersive ways to limit it is also just FUN. With that, there is less difference between someone playing the game and someone 'metagaming' it.
Everyone is judging others all the time, including yours. I don't need people to say it to know it. Evaluating someone's skill at something is a judgement of 'worth' for example.
Wait, so are you saying that you think the worth of a person is decided by others, or isn't decided by others?
All I was saying is that a discussion about worth is dumb. NiKr wanted to stay irrelevant to the discussion and I let him know it.
Now what does it have to do with you?
One is zerging to a singular person or persons in real life.
Can you either restate this, or define what you mean by "zerging". Because this sentence makes no sense to me.
Anyone can communicate and that is part of the game. Breaking the game shouldn't be easy.
A bunch of lazy people unwilling to improve, averse to playing the game simply because they're not good or don't like video games???, shouldn't be accommodated and rewarded.
I mean, this is an argument for forcing combat trackers on to all players (not that I know a way to make that happen), not an argument for allowing tracker use.
Players unwilling on un-wanting to improve won't ever use or consider using a tracker. On the other hand, a player wanting to be the best they can be at the game will always use a tracker, as it is the best tool for getting as good at a game as possible.
I mean, perhaps you just didn't word the argument you wanted to make here very well, or perhaps you have a totally misguided opinion of what a tracker is and can do, but your argument here isn't an argument to not have trackers in Ashes at all.
The game should not be so formulaic or repetitive though; and health/ damage/ whatever variability for individual mobs of the same 'kind' is part of that.
Accurate visages (e.g. Buffalo high health, fire causing burn, deadly looking creatures being deadly) is part of immersion and gives players the clue as to the nature of said Content.Thus undermining the use of third party tools and motivation to create them
This is untrue.
Lets assume you can look at a mob and see things such as it having more HP than the average mob of it's type, or that it deals fire damage in addition to other damage types that the mob deals.
That's great. The game will show you that. It will be on fire or what ever.
This is all direct feedback for the encounter, during that one encounter though. That information is not what you would ever use a combat tracker for though, and so it existing or not existing once again has no impact at all on whether a player would want to use a tracker or not.
One is zerging to a singular person or persons in real life.
Can you either restate this, or define what you mean by "zerging". Because this sentence makes no sense to me.
Zerging. Converging onto the Discord of some dude who can make tools, begging for an update to make the game easier for you. lmao.
Just turn on hacks dude you know you want to.
Anyone can communicate and that is part of the game. Breaking the game shouldn't be easy.
A bunch of lazy people unwilling to improve, averse to playing the game simply because they're not good or don't like video games???, shouldn't be accommodated and rewarded.
I mean, this is an argument for forcing combat trackers on to all players (not that I know a way to make that happen), not an argument for allowing tracker use.
Just gtfo. You're probably a botter too.
The reward for playing is improving, experience, having fun with the challenge, and clearing content once you've become good enough.
You don't get to be rewarded for removing the difficulty of the game with trackers. And you don't get rewarded for ruining immersion and more interesting game dynamics.
Players unwilling on un-wanting to improve won't ever use or consider using a tracker. On the other hand, a player wanting to be the best they can be at the game will always use a tracker, as it is the best tool for getting as good at a game as possible.
Hacks and Metabuilds are the best way to win.
It doesn't make you better at the game or improve the experience ffs.
It is becoming obvious to me you're a botter that sells gold/items and this would cut into your income.
The game should not be so formulaic or repetitive though; and health/ damage/ whatever variability for individual mobs of the same 'kind' is part of that.
Accurate visages (e.g. Buffalo high health, fire causing burn, deadly looking creatures being deadly) is part of immersion and gives players the clue as to the nature of said Content.Thus undermining the use of third party tools and motivation to create them
This is all direct feedback for the encounter, during that one encounter though. That information is not what you would ever use a combat tracker for though, and so it existing or not existing once again has no impact at all on whether a player would want to use a tracker or not.
Zerging. Converging onto the Discord of some dude who can make tools, begging for an update to make the game easier for you. lmao.
I am confused as to how you think this is an argument against Intrepid building a tracker directly in to the game.
Perhaps you are totally unaware. You and I are not discussing combat trackers vs no combat trackers in Ashes. That ship has sailed - trackers will be available to those that want them and will be within the rules that Ashes are able to introduce.
What we are discussing is Intrepid opting to take control of trackers themself, vs leaving them in third party hands.
It is becoming obvious to me you're a botter that sells gold/items and this would cut into your income.
Ah yes - the "I have no arguments left to make so I'll just claim you are a botter" argument.
You aren't the first to claim that this is what you think, and you also aren't the first to make the claim without any kind of link as to why you think it would be the case, or how a combat tracker in the game would assist a better at all.
Essentially, you have made a baseless, false claim that shows a total lack of understanding.
@Noaani
I would absolutely relish if devs were reading this and made sure to implement much of what I suggest and even take it a step further.
Fuck your bots.
Noaani
I would absolutely relish if devs were reading this and made sure to implement much of what I suggest and even take it a step further.
Fuck your bots.
Sail that ship into the rocks.
I like NiKr's version better.
I don't bot.
Your confusion between people that use combat trackers and people that bot does little more than point to you being unfit for discussion on the topic. Someone as uninformed as you simply can't have a valid opinion on the matter - just as I can't have a valid opinion on the work CERN has done in relation to the Higgs Boson - due to simply not having enough information on it.
The main difference between me in relation to CERN and you in relation to trackers is that at least I know that I would embarrass myself if I attempted to get in to a debate with someone that knew what they were talking about.
We already have all the tools. What I am asking for is for Intrepid to implement those tools rather than leaving us to rely on third party tools.
This is purely so that Intrepid retains control of what can and can not be done with those tools, rather than leaving it up to a third party to decide for us all.
Makes sense. I was contemplating this too, if IS should or want to do it or not and how/why.
The wording of...
We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide.
...feels like Steven sees the logs as a compromise, also with the goal to retain control.
I think retaining control is important.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Comments
Settings > Preferences > Quote settings
Using a spoiler is essentially overriding that setting. You are forcing your preference on to all, rather than letting us each decide our own preference.
As I said, spoiler use like you are doing is fine on forums where the above is not an option, but is pointless and irritating on a forum where posters have this control themselves. We already have all the tools. What I am asking for is for Intrepid to implement those tools rather than leaving us to rely on third party tools.
This is purely so that Intrepid retains control of what can and can not be done with those tools, rather than leaving it up to a third party to decide for us all.
As to the rest of what you have said, you claimed that you want mobs with variable health (as do I), but you also claimed that you want people to use mobs to determine how much damage an ability does.
I assume you have totally missed how you kind of can't have both.
However, your wishes aside, we know that we will have a combat log in the game, Steven has made that clear in this very thread.
Resistances may be rather non-linear and there could be a lot of interaction between weapon/damage type and the nature of the target's resistances (blunt vs sharp?). Daggers against a tree may be ineffectual and be no where near representative of their damage against Fleshy stuff.
Having that be a natural difficulty for data acquisition would be good imo because it's cooler.
This is another one of those things that would be fine if added to the game, but would still result in players using combat trackers.
I cannot minimize the quote automatically no matter what, and the text is enlarged.
I didn't design the forum and have Spoiler. Nesting spoilers is what I'll start doing.
In the case where combat logs don't exist you're relying on what data to feed it???
The mob benchmark is more about averaging things out over time to get a good idea of someone's or something's power/toughness and can't be avoided since health variability will be averaged out.
You say a rough estimation of numbers from Inspect won't replace Trackers but then checking how many hits it takes to kill something is "not something you can have" when trying to get rid of Tracker?????????????????????????
Combat log? That sucks. A big one.
I hope Intrepid fiddles with numbers on the weekly.
Plenty of things could realistically be a bit tougher, a bit more fragile. . . armor could scale a bit differently here and there. . . be a crooked power/resist increase instead of a smooth curve. . . ranges could be weighted and that weighting change based on this and that hidden mechanic. . . . ..
There's plenty to do.
For instance I can imagine weighting in a weapon's damage range being affected by the enemy's lack of or prevalence of "weak spots" and the user's lack of or prevalence of "stamina" and weapon skill perhaps raising the damage floor a bit in weighting rather than literal damage floor.
Everything could be organic and intuitive enough that you don't need to disassociate 'data' from 'game'.
Hence no need for Trackers lmao
Completely blocking the ability to "track" [recognize magnitude/ quantity] is not the entire point, hence "Inspect".
But with increased difficulty for data analysis you can't trust the third party tools to remove the work of Analyzing the Situation and 'Data' for You.
As Such You will suffer your reliance on said Tools when instead you should be using 'Inspect' and reacting to the situation or otherwise delegating such Leadership or Analysis to someone competent for the Task.
By looking at damage while things are going on you can respond, adapt, react, and perhaps run when you realize your crew is not equipped to take on something.
The things that have been discussed here would only move the Responsibility and Capacity to Excel from Tool to -> Person.
That is better game design; it is more fun and immersive. It is weightier. The weight needs to be in the right place -> on the shoulders of competent capable people.
I'll remove spoilers for this one.
That is the behavior you have displayed with spoilers/quotes. You now know that players are able to set it how they want, but your result is basically "fuck them and what they want, I'll do what I want and they can just deal".
You are also of the same mindset in regards to trackers. You think that if a system fulfills the way you would use a combat tracker, then everyone should be happy with it - and fuck them if they are not.
No.
I said using how many hits it takes to kill something is not a valid data point, when the hit points of the thing you are hitting is variable. You are trying to measure a variable based on another variable - that isn't a measurement, it is a guess.
In order to measure something, you need a known value to measure it against. If I gave you a piece of string and asked you to use it to measure a piece of wood, all you can do is tell me how many pieces of string the woods length is - you can't give me an actual, accurate answer in any meaningful way.
Keep in mind, you said you want variable hit points. That deprives you of a static, known value to make a measurement against.
This will result in the work people do with a tracker being both more important, and more frequent. People will want to know what the changes each week are.
In other words, it will make tracker use even more prevalent.
I literally cannot minimize quotes on my screen without manually doing so and neither can others that don't want the extra-large quotes taking up screen space.
The spoilers are a convenience for others and yet you don't recognize this because you can't imagine another's experience of the forum.
So blame the Intrepid forums ffs.
If you tested out the setting you talk about you'll notice the point of fact I mention isn't a lie.
You're so mad about the tracker argument you start crying how fucked you are.
It's also a stylistic or choice of convenience. I can simply not quote, if that will piss you off more.
Data analysis involves analysis and such measurements. My point is you can still analyze data with variables and ranges.
Rather than a tool of convenience.
Over time the number of hits it takes averages out and you get a max minimum. This is data. It can be analyzed. I am fine with this.
But it undermines braindead Trackers.
This is a terrible example and I will have to inform you you are nowhere near a Data Analyst because you hate the actual work of analyzing.
Hence you want a braindead tool of convenience that ruins the work of being decent at a game and ruins the immersion of experiencing it.
Knowing that killing one mob takes 1 hit and another takes 3 hits is data. Knowing something takes 3 hits sometimes 4 hits is data.
The consistent measures are damage/ health ranges and ability/ mob is a restricted variable range; averaging it out with repetition averages that out and you have max/ minimum for every mob and can try and figure out which abilities have less damage range and which mobs have less health/resistance range while you're at it.
Looking at how many hits it takes others to kill something is data as well and facilitates analysis.
Seconds and Inches are arbitrary but CONSISTENT measurements (given you have a precise timer/ ruler). Your abilities have range but knowing something is in
the scale of 1 second or 5 seconds doesn't require a precise timer.
the scale of 1 foot or 10 feet doesn't require a ruler.
Your brain can time and recognize distance just fine; if it doesn't then you have room to improve.
So what is the issue? You do not need a Tracker to remove the play and work of the game. Presence or Lack thereof is a design choice; and layers/dynamics add depth.
If you do not have the will to try and figure everything out then DON'T it's a game not a JOB.
No it will not. Or maybe it will!
Because you can simply play the game and use basic intuition and competencies in understanding the data experience provides!
Unless you are so bad at it that you NEED the tracker in which case you can beg on Discord the Data Analyst grad(s)/hobbyists to please please help you! And maybe they keep getting it wrong or Intrepid keeps changing stuff up!
Or people will ask the smart Guild Leader to guide them and lead raids! Or to lead a quest! Or hope the smart Raid Leader will lead this weeks raid! Or hope the smart guy will help them deal with a quest!
Or ask someone who has killed a lot of Goblins about them! Communication!
All in all it's a win and people can excel or organize based on their competencies or lack thereof.
DPS meters are not allowed.
Who cares
There are many things that are "not allowed", yet are common regardless.
The worth of a person is not up to democratic vote.
And you have nothing important to say.
So, the way you say this makes it seem as if you literally have no clue how people use a tracker, or what they do with the information they get from using one.
Sure, you can play the game without a tracker if you want. No one is stopping you, and their existence isn't forcing you to use one - nor is it forcing you to care that someone else is using one.
So, in the above quote, you talk about how players should just ask the player that has killed a lot of goblins, and that's good because communication between players and all.
Yet, for some reason, you are deriding the player that asks the person that analyzed data about things. That is still communication, yet for some reason you seem to think this is a bad thing, where as asking a player that has killed goblins is a good thing.
To me, both are communication, and so both are the same. To suggest this is not the case is just outright odd.
As a guild/raid leader, I do indeed have people that ask me to guide/lead them on content. Since I am then responsible for over 3 hours of player time for every 5 minutes of time that is used unproductively (40*5), I make a point of being as efficient with the time of my guild/raid as I can.
Perhaps you are different. Perhaps you are happy to lead 40 people without a damn clue as to what is going on. That's cool, if those people continue to follow you, more power to you. However, I will continue to lead my guild in as efficient manner as I can.
Everyone is judging others all the time, including yours. I don't need people to say it to know it. Evaluating someone's skill at something is a judgement of 'worth' for example. Prioritizing family's life over another's is a judgement of 'worth'.
He chose not to elaborate and discuss something. He has nothing to say to me or about the topic.
Why would I say something redundant. He can participate in the topic or commit to his opt-out; or feud. Like you.
I have to elaborate and explain this shit so I don't get banned cursing you out.
Fixed.
as i said, on of biggest topic about parsers in FFXIV ended with nearly all people (aside the anti) to consider the "anti parser" being the real toxic... because they explained that it was unacceptable to be kicked/refused from party due to parser/fflogs, and when some people tried to say they only saw kick on farm party... the anti confirmed it was also unacceptable kick.
This is also one of the topic with the "you don't pay my sub" ... message mostly by people other had to carry thru contents (mainly in raid 24 where... sometime... it is really special, maybe more than LFR)
But toxicity is not really due to this : FFXIV limit it a lot with a clear differences between farm and learning parties. Also, in wow, there is the weekly run, it becomes on the weekly todo list, with a psychologic effect that "i HAVE to do it" even on first week, so people try to infiltrate parties with high chance to success early after each patch. On FF, the "weekly" is a thing for story mode raid, and raid 24. which are never a problem (LFR difficulty), the xtrem primal could even be ignored if you don't care weapons, and it is more a farm than weekly kill to get what you want on primal xtrems, so if you wait 2 month... you didnt lose some "drop chance" for the item you want
So on one game everyone try to get some weekly kill on content needing a decent efficience, on the other... not. On the first we can find toxicity, on second... not. Both game got whiners for
It remains a bad use of tracker.
A tracker will be able to show lot of various informations, but... because you don't have a large tv to display all tracker information, you only see one... The most accurate for a DPS during fight would be to see the cumulativ damages or the average DPS of each of his skills. And it would help to see that, on this ennemy, there is high physical res (because elemental damage are normal, while physical skills are lower than on other ennemies)
But... it still lack of accuracy on information, there could be lot of explanation (high physical resist on specific timing ? but this can be seen with damage text scroll when you hit, in middle of screen, not on tracker). And you end up to lose your focus from the fight for a few seconds during it... You also have a corner of your screen blind, rarely usefull, but it remains a risk to miss information of anything happening on this part.
For most usefull information to react during fight, while discovering the boss and trying to understand the strategy, there will be the scrolling text, knowing your "normal damages" will help a lot to see if those numbers are low or high, and adapt. Tracker will allow you analysis for the whole fight ,and a deeper understanding of some element.
Wait, so are you saying that you think the worth of a person is decided by others, or isn't decided by others?
One is zerging to a singular person or persons in real life.
Another keeps the spread of competencies out throughout the game to varying individuals, usually in proximity or citizen to an area [thus having more expertise on that area].
Anyone can communicate and that is part of the game. Breaking the game shouldn't be easy.
A bunch of lazy people unwilling to improve, averse to playing the game simply because they're not good or don't like video games???, shouldn't be accommodated and rewarded.
I'm fine with failing multiple times in a group. Trying to appeal to those that aren't fine with that is just backwards.
Trying to appeal to those that don't want to play the game LOL say goodbye to your playerbase if you do such as a dev.
You can still be as efficient as you possibly can based on your efforts to be effective, knowledge of the game, and so forth.
Everyone in the game is trying to be more effective and/or efficient.
The game should not be so formulaic or repetitive though; and health/ damage/ whatever variability for individual mobs of the same 'kind' is part of that.
Accurate visages (e.g. Buffalo high health, fire causing burn, deadly looking creatures being deadly) is part of immersion and gives players the clue as to the nature of said Content.Thus undermining the use of third party tools and motivation to create them.
You may need to ask around. You may need Officers that are good at certain content. You may need to be an Officer or whatever instead of a Guild Leader because there are others that are better than you and/or absorbing people from your utilitarian guild.
Players may 'need' to find those who know better. They will have to ask around who has cleared something or killed a lot of something. Or they simply try and don't turn blue or red from failing.
Leadership can still exist. Organization can still exist.
There's no necessity for trackers and it cheapens the game.
Bad use of tracker? Good.
How about good use of in-game information? Good.
Without being told ## damage;
By making it baseline more difficult to tell in general;
you can just play the game and try and figure stuff out on your own by playing, without ever worrying that hardcore lifers will metagame to the upteenth in Discords;
unless they have literal PhDs and are suffering a romantic breakup they need to work out through shitting on the game.
Use trackers and you will always be relying on other's expertise and that can fail. . . often. Or always. lol.
So basically if trackers are practically dog shit because people can't practically make them. . . it's a wash out.
Increasing immersive ways to gain info and immersive ways to limit it is also just FUN. With that, there is less difference between someone playing the game and someone 'metagaming' it.
All I was saying is that a discussion about worth is dumb. NiKr wanted to stay irrelevant to the discussion and I let him know it.
Now what does it have to do with you?
Players unwilling on un-wanting to improve won't ever use or consider using a tracker. On the other hand, a player wanting to be the best they can be at the game will always use a tracker, as it is the best tool for getting as good at a game as possible.
I mean, perhaps you just didn't word the argument you wanted to make here very well, or perhaps you have a totally misguided opinion of what a tracker is and can do, but your argument here isn't an argument to not have trackers in Ashes at all.
This is untrue.
Lets assume you can look at a mob and see things such as it having more HP than the average mob of it's type, or that it deals fire damage in addition to other damage types that the mob deals.
That's great. The game will show you that. It will be on fire or what ever.
This is all direct feedback for the encounter, during that one encounter though. That information is not what you would ever use a combat tracker for though, and so it existing or not existing once again has no impact at all on whether a player would want to use a tracker or not.
Zerging. Converging onto the Discord of some dude who can make tools, begging for an update to make the game easier for you. lmao.
Just turn on hacks dude you know you want to.
Just gtfo. You're probably a botter too.
The reward for playing is improving, experience, having fun with the challenge, and clearing content once you've become good enough.
You don't get to be rewarded for removing the difficulty of the game with trackers.
And you don't get rewarded for ruining immersion and more interesting game dynamics.
Hacks and Metabuilds are the best way to win.
It doesn't make you better at the game or improve the experience ffs.
It is becoming obvious to me you're a botter that sells gold/items and this would cut into your income.
Thus killing your bot farm. lmao
Perhaps you are totally unaware. You and I are not discussing combat trackers vs no combat trackers in Ashes. That ship has sailed - trackers will be available to those that want them and will be within the rules that Ashes are able to introduce.
What we are discussing is Intrepid opting to take control of trackers themself, vs leaving them in third party hands. Ah yes - the "I have no arguments left to make so I'll just claim you are a botter" argument.
You aren't the first to claim that this is what you think, and you also aren't the first to make the claim without any kind of link as to why you think it would be the case, or how a combat tracker in the game would assist a better at all.
Essentially, you have made a baseless, false claim that shows a total lack of understanding.
I would absolutely relish if devs were reading this and made sure to implement much of what I suggest and even take it a step further.
Fuck your bots.
Sail that ship into the rocks.
I like NiKr's version better.
I don't bot.
Your confusion between people that use combat trackers and people that bot does little more than point to you being unfit for discussion on the topic. Someone as uninformed as you simply can't have a valid opinion on the matter - just as I can't have a valid opinion on the work CERN has done in relation to the Higgs Boson - due to simply not having enough information on it.
The main difference between me in relation to CERN and you in relation to trackers is that at least I know that I would embarrass myself if I attempted to get in to a debate with someone that knew what they were talking about.
The wording of... ...feels like Steven sees the logs as a compromise, also with the goal to retain control.
I think retaining control is important.
Nice try
Problem is, it isn't going to stop people using trackers at all.