In Log Horizon, the key to winning battles was learning how to adjust to supporting the abilities each person in the group liked to use, rather than just having each individual go for optimal DPS. Or using the exact same tactics they would if trying to solo.
I normally default to the dps side of a lot of the meters, but I would hope if they put in a meter they would measure other parts of the group as well. I’ve used meters that have tracked basically all of my relevant info for me such as HPS, overheals, aggro percentages, damage intake, etc.
The point of my post was more about trying to make the use of a meter more meaningful than *turns on meter*, and locking it behind content so it’s more likely to be used by those who actually need it, instead of every person who wants to show off their
Staying with Log Horizon, Season 2 mid season during the raid battle, information/percentages are constantly getting called out that would be ridiculously hard to track on your own without aggro information, damage outputs, buff/debuff timers. That’s what made him so good at what he did, he was able to take in all of this information given to him by the “worlds” interface and turn it into on the fly tactics.
If you’re concerned that including a dps meter will lead to only tuning for optimal dps, that is the fault of the game itself not the meter. The meter should just be a tool, the fights should be interesting enough that everything you said in the quoted post is true with or without a meter.
I really like this idea, the only thing I'd do is make it a task that you need to perform to gain access to a combat tracker for a week at which point you can do it again - and this is coming from someone that hates the idea of daily/weekly tasks.
I like the idea of it needing to be redone. One and done is far too easy to do and would lead to everyone having one. To even expand on this maybe it’s an actual item, could be crafted or not, but it could have a decay and after X amount of time it breaks. I like the idea of weekly better than daily. That way raid/dungeon leaders could get theirs and be good for an entire week of dungeons and raids. Then tie it to a quest that imbues the item the magic needed to read your parties info, or some other way that activates it.
I truly do hope that they don’t just slap a meter in the game. I agree that it possesses the ability to create toxic situations, but I do think it is a very valuable tool to have in an mmo
I truly do hope that they don’t just slap a meter in the game. I agree that it possesses the ability to create toxic situations, but I do think it is a very valuable tool to have in an mmo
As do I.
Making it an item that deteriorates after a week is good, that means that not only do people need to go out and earn it every week, but it also takes up a valuable inventory slot - something that will mean more in Ashes than in other games. Basically, it means people won't have one at all unless they actually value what it can do - and if someone values what it can do they probably know how to make use of it properly.
The other thing with treating it as a piece of content rather than as a tool - it makes it easier or developers to justify designing content that requires it.
With a combat tracker, the developers can throw an encounter at players that requires us to keep track of far more information than we could keep track of without one. If the tracker is a part of content, then developers don't even need to point players towards a tool to make that content possible, they need only point to another piece of content.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Still not a big fan of the 'trackers allow creators to develop more complex content' but I am a fan of making it an item.
As an item that deteiroates with other gear, and that could be repaired, crafted, and sold, we turn it into something of higher value to the game. It can be a gold sink, it can be an obtainable goal, it can be something some players feel is required before doing some (or all) content. I think it would also cut down on other players in raids demanding to know your score (especially since it should not be something that can be traded).
If they want to give you gold, and trust you use said gold to buy a tracker, and you choose to do that then any negative response from having it would be on you.
Again, this won't solve most peoples issues with them being in the game. But I do appreciate this approach
Still not a big fan of the 'trackers allow creators to develop more complex content'
I'm not sure why, both Blizzard and SoE said they needed to do exactly this over a decade ago.
It's the difference between a math exam where you have a calculator, and a math exam where you don't. If you were writing those exams, you'd be foolish to not make the exam where calculators are able to be used somewhat harder.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I agree with love / hate relationship with them. I do like to know what damage I am dishing out but I did prefer the days where you had sufficient sense by watching the hp go down on a mob and more focused on the event you are taking place in rather than the periphery data.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Still not a big fan of the 'trackers allow creators to develop more complex content'
I'm not sure why, both Blizzard and SoE said they needed to do exactly this over a decade ago.
It's the difference between a math exam where you have a calculator, and a math exam where you don't. If you were writing those exams, you'd be foolish to not make the exam where calculators are able to be used somewhat harder.
We can all pick examples of real world things to associate with our point.
In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example.
There are many things companies do that I don't agree with. Just because major players do things, that doesn't mean I have to jump on board. But I am capable of independent thought, like everyone else here, and therefore do not feel like a calculator is necessary to play the game.
Again, I am not against them, just the thought they are somehow required to make the game more difficult.
I am also still a fan of including them as in-game items that need to be crafted, purchased, and maintained.
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Staying with Log Horizon, Season 2 mid season during the raid battle, information/percentages are constantly getting called out that would be ridiculously hard to track on your own without aggro information, damage outputs, buff/debuff timers. That’s what made him so good at what he did, he was able to take in all of this information given to him by the “worlds” interface and turn it into on the fly tactics.
If you’re concerned that including a dps meter will lead to only tuning for optimal dps, that is the fault of the game itself not the meter. The meter should just be a tool, the fights should be interesting enough that everything you said in the quoted post is true with or without a meter.
It's the fault of the players who use the meters and trackers as a quick and easy blame game tool - which is far too many players.
When I think of Log Horizon in regard to Ashes, it's always about those characters having to learn to adjust to how their teammates play vs trying to play the same as if they were trying to maximize their own dps. That's the brilliance I'm hoping to reproduce.
If most players used the combat trackers like Shiroe does, sure, that would be great.
But, that's a utopian fantasy rather than reality.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We can all pick examples of real world things to associate with our point.
In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example.
haha
Yes. I am trying very, very hard to avoid using real world examples so that people don't whine about me being too political.
Still not a big fan of the 'trackers allow creators to develop more complex content'
I'm not sure why, both Blizzard and SoE said they needed to do exactly this over a decade ago.
It's the difference between a math exam where you have a calculator, and a math exam where you don't. If you were writing those exams, you'd be foolish to not make the exam where calculators are able to be used somewhat harder.
We can all pick examples of real world things to associate with our point.
In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example.
There are many things companies do that I don't agree with. Just because major players do things, that doesn't mean I have to jump on board. But I am capable of independent thought, like everyone else here, and therefore do not feel like a calculator is necessary to play the game.
Again, I am not against them, just the thought they are somehow required to make the game more difficult.
I am also still a fan of including them as in-game items that need to be crafted, purchased, and maintained.
The trick to making it harder is to do so while not excluding people from the content. It's really easy to make hard content if you don't actually mind if people don't complete it.
Higher math classes are "higher" because not everyone is able to wrap their head around the concepts.
Everyone is able to come to terms with how a calculator works.
Staying with Log Horizon, Season 2 mid season during the raid battle, information/percentages are constantly getting called out that would be ridiculously hard to track on your own without aggro information, damage outputs, buff/debuff timers. That’s what made him so good at what he did, he was able to take in all of this information given to him by the “worlds” interface and turn it into on the fly tactics.
If you’re concerned that including a dps meter will lead to only tuning for optimal dps, that is the fault of the game itself not the meter. The meter should just be a tool, the fights should be interesting enough that everything you said in the quoted post is true with or without a meter.
It's the fault of the players who use the meters and trackers as a quick and easy blame game tool - which is far too many players.
When I think of Log Horizon in regard to Ashes, it's always about those characters having to learn to adjust to how their teammates play vs trying to play the same as if they were trying to maximize their own dps. That's the brilliance I'm hoping to reproduce.
The funny thing about this is it doesn't mean everyone around you has to alter their play to match yours, it means you have to alter your play to match everyone around you.
Raids already do this.
If you don't do this on a raid, it may be why people look at combat trackers and then blame you.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Then if they create a Tracker they would have to make the game more difficult because everyone has access?
Not everyone will use it. IS doesn't have to make the content easy, they can make the game difficult. They can make the game where top level players have to try multiple times to understand the scope of the combat. Just because it is hard, it doesn't mean you should be given a tool to make it easier.
You want a combat tracker to make difficult content easier so IS can make higher difficulty content?
Well lets say I want to run a more defensive set up. Well I would need to know how much dps it would cost me and how much extra defense I am getting in terms of hit points.
So now I have to reverse engineer that. Really more important in pvp.
So let me ask you this question how many PvPers are going to want to come to Ashes of Creation and take the time to figure it out with out a dps meter or combat tracker when they already playing a game that allows one.
Really think people will want to reverse engineer their dps or defensive abilities.
For competative pvp it is pretty much a must have ...Not the dps meter the information is a must have.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
"Well lets say I want to run a more defensive set up. Well I would need to know how much dps it would cost me and how much extra defense I am getting in terms of hit points."
My response is a simple, if not slightly time consuming one. Play the game.
You don't "Have" to reverse engineer one, although you might 'want' to.
If I start a new game, and decide it's not for me because the mechanics I enjoy are not being utilized I make a choice:
A) Continue playing the game as it is, or Find a game more suited to my play style.
I don't see why this isn't an option. There are many games I don't play because of this, and they all seem to do fine. There are many games I am still playing that are also doing fine. Ashes will obviously lose market space on the PvP only crowd and the PvE only crowd, so I'm not seeing where this potential loss of players is going to greatly effect their overall projections (assuming they have them).
Ashes is a niche game being a PvX that doesn't have full loot, PvE safe zones, and uses corruption as a 'punishment-like' deterrent to unwanted PvP.
Since when does every game released have to match everyone's play style?
"For competative pvp it is pretty much a must have ...Not the dps meter the information is a must have."
But there are so many games designed specifically for competitive PvP, which will likely all do it better than Ashes since Ashes is a PvX. So why wouldn't they play there for competitive PvP and play Ashes for different reasons?
Who knows, maybe Ashes will be such an awesome game some players might be willing to step outside their norm/comfort-zone and just enjoy it. PvX is not my style, but I am totally planning on embracing it because that is the type of game Ashes is, and I want to play Ashes.
You want a combat tracker to make difficult content easier so IS can make higher difficulty content?
Yes!
Now you get it!
But seriously, this is actually about it.
If you are given a math exam where you have no access to a calculator, you can safely assume that the exam will be testing your ability to perform basic arithmetic, and perhaps your grasp on the basics of BEDMAS (or PODMAS).
However, if you have access to a calculator, it is a given that these things will be all correct - as these are all functions the calculator can perform for you. Rather, a math exam where you have access to a calculator is more about the formulae, the method or the logic used.
These exams are objectively harder because they contain all of the teachings from the earlier exam. However, once a student is at the level where such an exam may be handed to them, it is expected that complete knowledge of those basic functions are a give - so instead of burdening the student with having to continue to perform them, they allow them use of a calculator in order to be able to focus on the higher aspects of the exam.
I'm actually going to attempt to illustrate my point by logging back in to EQ2 when I have some free time, mentoring down to level 65 and running all the raid content where the encounters are level 55 (content that was in the game at launch or shortly after - designed without combat trackers taken in to account), and then with the same characters mentoring down to 75 and attempting the raid content at level 65 (DoF, the games first expansion - content that was designed with combat trackers in mind). I may also do level 75 content, will see if I get time.
I predict that I will be able to kill every single level 55 encounter in the game, but only a handful of level 65, and only one or two at level 75. This is because the encounters made with combat trackers in mind are more complex - there is more going on, and I won't be able to handle it all myself. Whereas the level 55 encounters - those designed without combat trackers in mind - are all comparatively straight forward even though they were something of a challenge at the time.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But wouldn't the difficult content be difficult without a tracker?
Meaning you wouldn't need complex material to satisfy the need for difficult content, because you wouldn't be using a tool to make the material easier for you.
To me this sounds a bit weird. You want the content to be difficult, but you want a tool to make it easier for you. This is the equivalent of using cheat codes to play a game, and then telling all your buddies the game is "too easy" without explaining that you are using cheat codes.
I don't think IS should provide a tool that makes Ashes easier, I think the player base should step up their performance level. I also don't think IS should focus on exceptionally hard content, since their plan is a large swath of players. Games like Dark Souls can increase the difficulty all they want, their player base is more limited, but also dedicated.
Again, I think the idea of the deteriorating personal tracker is a great idea. I also believe adding it to guilds for a perk (if chosen) is also a good idea. Using both of these methods would likely be even better.
But wanting a tool to make things easier, and then wanting more difficult things to occur because you have the tool, seems odd imo.
To me this sounds a bit weird. You want the content to be difficult, but you want a tool to make it easier for you.
In the same way a math exam will test you for different things based on if you do or do not have access to a calculator, a raid encounter can test the raid for different things based on if they do or do not have access to a combat tracker.
It isn't so much a case of making the content difficult - though this is what happens. It is about making the content more interesting.
There is only so many exams you can take where basic arithmetic (and algebra) is what is expected of you, but once you get that calculator, you can start on geometry, and then on to metric geometry, molecular geometry, non-Eucliden geometry etc (and hey, there are also hundreds of fields of math that are not geometry based!). All of these are far more interesting than anything that would result in an exam where there is no access to a calculator.
One of the basic functions of a raid is timing AE's. It is perfectly possible for someone to to do this with a stopwatch (or stopwatch function on a phone). However, once the raid as a whole has proven that they can time AE's, it becomes a cause of tedium to have to keep timing AE's manually like this.
Now, the developers could only put AE's in the game where the encounter has some massive emote before using the AE, but this is like handing out a math exam, but replacing all multiplication with repeated addition. Keeping an eye out for an emote is one skill, timing an AE is a different skill. Further, if the developers decide that an encounter has to have noticeable animations for their AE's, that limits what you can do with AE's on raid encounters. You couldn't give the encounter an AE with a 45 second timer and another with a 30 second timer, because then at 90 seconds when both AE's are to go off, one animation will overwrite the other (or, if the game is coded badly, the zone will crash).
The raid has proven that we can time these AE's, and further content will have more and more AE's involved with them. If the raid has access to something that can do the basic function (timing the AE), the raid as a whole can then focus on the bigger picture of dealing with out the multiple AEs in an encounter may interact with each other.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
"There is only so many exams you can take where basic arithmetic (and algebra) is what is expected of you, but once you get that calculator, you can start on geometry, and then on to metric geometry, molecular geometry, non-Eucliden geometry etc (and hey, there are also hundreds of fields of math that are not geometry based!). All of these are far more interesting than anything that would result in an exam where there is no access to a calculator."
This is only true, as you said:
"Higher math classes are "higher" because not everyone is able to wrap their head around the concepts."
So, according to your theory now you want a tool to do more difficult content. But that more difficult content would only be appreciated by those that can wrap their heads (skill level) around it. So that falls back to my comment which you disagreed with
"In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example."
So you are effectively saying that just having the tool doesn't make the content easier. You still have to understand and study the content, in this case playing the game. Only after playing the game for so long will you be able to use the tool to actually make the game easier.
My point is by then, the content should be easier because your skill level has improved. So adding the usage of the tool at that point will only make slightly challenging content easier.
Then you ask for harder content because the tool allows you to not be challenged anymore.
Whereas without the tool, the content could still be more challenging.
-Mathematical Rant- TL/DR: A tool will inherently mean the game is designed at a low enough level a majority of players would not need the tool
I have a bachelors in Mathematics. I assure you there are plenty of geometry tests I have taken that were difficult and did not require a calculator. To that extent, there were test that if someone unfamiliar with the concepts were given a calculator, they would still fail. I tried to dissuade you from using mathematics as an example, but you insist on doing so.
You can be tested on knowledge and skill, which rarely if ever requires a calculator. Those tests given to individuals without the knowledge and skill will fail even with programmable calculators. Because the calculator can only quantify input, it can't understand the subject matter. Which, to your point with the tracker, makes the tracker a tool that is used inherently to do something the tool doesn't understand. So users that don't understand it, as you have pointed out, will fail to use it properly.
You can also be tested on "do you know how to use your calculator" which is pretty much any test in mathematics before algebra. That being said, you can still be tested on your knowledge in algebra from beginner to geometric algebra or abstract algebra without ever requiring a calculator.
Tests given after high school, and high school equivalent math classes, are not tests designed for you to show how well you manipulate a calculator. Lower level math classes however are designed for you to use your tool. Because it allows for standardized testing with quantitative and comparable results across demographics.
If IS designs encounters specifically due to the implementation of a tracker, than I could say based on your example and my familiarity with it, that the content was made easy to understand so everyone could use the tool and be comparably equal. In which case, the content will be stagnate, require less base understanding of the game, and repetitive.
@noaani, if you were insisting on the usage of Applied Mathematics or Physics my rant would be baseless. That said, your statement of "higher level math classes are..." would apply. Because a vast majority of people can't sit down, open a physics book for the first time, and just start accurately answering every question.
"There is only so many exams you can take where basic arithmetic (and algebra) is what is expected of you, but once you get that calculator, you can start on geometry, and then on to metric geometry, molecular geometry, non-Eucliden geometry etc (and hey, there are also hundreds of fields of math that are not geometry based!). All of these are far more interesting than anything that would result in an exam where there is no access to a calculator."
This is only true, as you said:
"Higher math classes are "higher" because not everyone is able to wrap their head around the concepts."
So, according to your theory now you want a tool to do more difficult content. But that more difficult content would only be appreciated by those that can wrap their heads (skill level) around it. So that falls back to my comment which you disagreed with
"In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example."
So you are effectively saying that just having the tool doesn't make the content easier. You still have to understand and study the content, in this case playing the game. Only after playing the game for so long will you be able to use the tool to actually make the game easier.
My point is by then, the content should be easier because your skill level has improved. So adding the usage of the tool at that point will only make slightly challenging content easier.
Then you ask for harder content because the tool allows you to not be challenged anymore.
Whereas without the tool, the content could still be more challenging.
-Mathematical Rant- TL/DR: A tool will inherently mean the game is designed at a low enough level a majority of players would not need the tool
I have a bachelors in Mathematics. I assure you there are plenty of geometry tests I have taken that were difficult and did not require a calculator. To that extent, there were test that if someone unfamiliar with the concepts were given a calculator, they would still fail. I tried to dissuade you from using mathematics as an example, but you insist on doing so.
You can be tested on knowledge and skill, which rarely if ever requires a calculator. Those tests given to individuals without the knowledge and skill will fail even with programmable calculators. Because the calculator can only quantify input, it can't understand the subject matter. Which, to your point with the tracker, makes the tracker a tool that is used inherently to do something the tool doesn't understand. So users that don't understand it, as you have pointed out, will fail to use it properly.
You can also be tested on "do you know how to use your calculator" which is pretty much any test in mathematics before algebra. That being said, you can still be tested on your knowledge in algebra from beginner to geometric algebra or abstract algebra without ever requiring a calculator.
Tests given after high school, and high school equivalent math classes, are not tests designed for you to show how well you manipulate a calculator. Lower level math classes however are designed for you to use your tool. Because it allows for standardized testing with quantitative and comparable results across demographics.
If IS designs encounters specifically due to the implementation of a tracker, than I could say based on your example and my familiarity with it, that the content was made easy to understand so everyone could use the tool and be comparably equal. In which case, the content will be stagnate, require less base understanding of the game, and repetitive.
@noaani, if you were insisting on the usage of Applied Mathematics or Physics my rant would be baseless. That said, your statement of "higher level math classes are..." would apply. Because a vast majority of people can't sit down, open a physics book for the first time, and just start accurately answering every question.
A raid only needs a few people that can wrap their heads around what is going on (one is technically enough). Once this one person understands, then the raid as a whole understands. However, since the kind of person that enjoys top end raiding also enjoys this kind of problem solving, more than half of every raid guild I have been a part of (even more casual guilds) have been keen problem solvers.
The rest of the raid may not fully grasp the details of what the encounter is doing, but they still have a solid appreciation that they themselves have far more to do on such encounters than they do on the more mundane encounters.
Basically, one person needs to fully grasp what is going on, then everyone can enjoy the greater variety. At that point it is up to the individuals in the raid to perform their specific task (which is usually not something that a combat tracker can assist with) in order for the raid to be a success.
If Intrepid want there to be encounters that players aspire to being able to kill, where is the block that is stopping them coming from? It cant be gear, because players already aspire to get better gear. The ONLY other mechanism that has worked in ANY mmo that I am aware of is encounter complexity.
If only one person per class needed to understand the concepts in applied mathematics in order for the whole class to understand, I'd wager there would be a lot more people in fields where this is required.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
To me this sounds a bit weird. You want the content to be difficult, but you want a tool to make it easier for you. This is the equivalent of using cheat codes to play a game, and then telling all your buddies the game is "too easy" without explaining that you are using cheat codes.
My understanding is that noanni wants the combat to be so difficult that it can't be completed without proper analysis of the data from the combat trackers. If the average raid can figure out how to defeat the content without a combat tracker, then the content is too easy for top end raiders using a combat tracker.
That seems to be the concept.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Just because someone tells you what would be best or how to something, that doesn't mean you are capable or willing. Unless, I suppose, they are walking you through it step by step. I don't see raid leaders having that type of time.
So players will still need a good understanding of their abilities and the game. At which point, they probably don't need the tracker, although they might want one to make the game easier.
In the end, I am still for deteriorating tracker-items.
I just don't think a tracker is necessary for the most difficult content creatable. If it is, then it seems like the game is playing with the tracker, which to me, would be a different type of game.
There are exactly two scenarios in which a raid leader will dictate a build to a player.
The first is because the raid leader doesn't know what they are doing. They see other raid leaders dictate to their raid and they think that is how raid leaders are supposed to act. They see videos of raids on YouTube or Twitch and try to emulate the behavior they see - being totally ignorant of the fact that the people they were watching were playing up for the audience.
This kind of behavior is 100% limited to pick up raids - because such leaders can't get a raid full of people to follow them.
Essentially, this kind of raid leader is the raid level equivalent of the issue in groups of ninja looting. You don't judge all groups based on ninja-looting, because you know full well that the way to avoid it is to get yourself in to a community (whether makeshift or formal) that runs content together often. Once in such a community, ninja-looting is essentially a thing of the past.
Same for raids. If you get yourself in to a community that raids together often, you get away from raid leaders that don't know what they are doing. Once you get in to a regular raiding community, raid leaders start to realize that the player is more important than the numbers. When you hit an encounter that doesn't have a DPS check, doesn't do all that much damage, but does ask something of members of your raid that is non-standard for any class in the game, you quickly realize that the people are all that matters.
---
However, as mentioned above, there is a second time a raid leader may dictate a build to you. This is when the content dictates a build to the raid leader.
Raids are not simply larger groups.
In groups, you have a tank, a healer, some DPS and support. Everyone's role is basically set, and doesn't really vary from these basics.
This is also how things start off in raids. However, the thing with raid content is that it asks things of players and classes that are non-standard. This is what separates raid content from group content - not the number of people present.
There may be raid encounters that requires a rogue to tank, there may be raid encounters that requires a mage to solo tough encounters (tough for soloing at least), there may be raid encounters that require a single group within that raid to break off and act as an independent group, there may be raid encounters that require healers to spec for DPS, there may be raid encounters that require a very high degree of in combat mobility for specific people.
If you are going on a raid and you are a rogue, if that encounter requires a rogue to tank and the raid leader looks to you to fulfill this requirement of the content, you either make that happen or admit to yourself that you are not well suited to raid content.
If you are a healer and the encounter has adds that only take damage from healers, if the raid leader asks you to spec for DPS, then you spec for DPS. The raid leader is putting the core mechanic in your hands - at least in part. This isn't a time for you to complain that it isn't what you are there for, it is your time to shine, to show that you aren't a one trick pony.
If you are a healer that can has proven they are able to handle this situation, and this situation is 6 boss encounters in to a raid zone, the raid leader won't care if you afk follow the raid up to that point as long as you perform that task - because the content demands it.
Not being willing to perform the task that the raid encounter asks of you is no different to a solo healer expecting someone else to do all the damage to the solo content because they are a healer and they will play the way they want to play - and that way involves only healing. In the same way solo content asks different things of you than what group content asks of you, raid content asks for different things from you again - although raids have the scope to ask of you every single thing that group or solo content could ask of you, if the encounters are designed in that manner.
Most of the time on a raid, you perform your basic role - however, when you are required to perform a different role, you are expected to perform that role without issue.
If you want to spec for a role and stay within that role, then raids are simply not for you, because that is not what raids are about. Nor is it what they should be about - we have single group content for that.
Just because someone tells you what would be best or how to something, that doesn't mean you are capable or willing. Unless, I suppose, they are walking you through it step by step. I don't see raid leaders having that type of time.
So players will still need a good understanding of their abilities and the game. At which point, they probably don't need the tracker, although they might want one to make the game easier.
In the end, I am still for deteriorating tracker-items.
I just don't think a tracker is necessary for the most difficult content creatable. If it is, then it seems like the game is playing with the tracker, which to me, would be a different type of game.
It is an expectation that everyone on a raid know how their class works.
The person figuring out what is going on isn't micro-managing every spell that every person in the raid casts - in fact, they are hardly even looking at what the raid is doing. This person is focused almost 100% on what the encounter is doing.
There seems to be some confusion here though.
Once you get to raids, combat trackers aren't really needed for looking at what people on your raid are doing. The expectation is that by the time the raid starts, every member of your raid understands their base function and are able to perform it to an acceptable degree.
The only four times when a combat tracker is used to look at the raid is:
1; friendly competition, which is usually within people in the same raid.
2; when the encounter asks something of someone in your raid that is non-standard for their class. A combat tracker is very useful here.
3; when things go wrong when the raid as a whole thinks they know the encounter. This is for problem solving.
4; assessing the ability of a new recruit, but only if the raid is taking on content that dictates a minimum level of performance - though this is usually done on a run specific to this end, where the player in question is placed in various situations.
The most useful thing a combat tracker does isn't about looking at your own raid, it is that it will tell you what the encounter is doing (or has done).
Any raid leader that is looking at what the members of their raid did after a successful encounter (unless success wasn't expected) is literally always someone you don't want leading your raid.
As to the comment about content designed with a combat tracker being able to be made harder than content designed without one - a raid is able to actually deal with (whether heal through, cure, joust or block) more AE's than you can expect that same raid to keep track of.
Now, some developers put cues in the encounter on when they are about to use an AE/ability. This is cool, there is absolutely a skill in being able to observe the encounter and react to what it is doing.
This absolutely is and should be a mechanic that raid designers use.
However, so is using timed AE's and abilities. Abilities that get used without any warning - other than the fact that they are used every ** seconds.
Being able to deal with this is a different skill, one that is at least as valid as being able to observe the encounter's behavior.
Where a combat tracker assists in this specific situation is it allows the person charged with tracking the AE's to be able to work out the timer on each AE that needs to be tracked (not all do), and set a timer in the combat tracker rather than using a different program on their computer or phone.
The challenge here isn't actually in timing the AE, it is in gathering the information needed to be able to time the AE. Once that information is gathered and once the decision is made as to what to do for each AE, the actual challenge of the raid has been overcome. The fact that you are still using the combat tracker to time the AE doesn't mean you are using the combat tracker to make the encounter easier (as the encounter is exactly the same if you use a phone app).
In an encounter with 15 timed AE's, if there is a combat tracker the challenge is in dealing with the AE's. If there is no combat tracker the challenge is in dealing with 15 timers - not an enjoyable experience.
However, third party combat trackers usually allow you to import a file specific to an encounter that has the timers on all the AE's ready to go. This kind of thing I dislike, as no one in the raid has had to do the ground work to learn the encounter, learn which AE's need to be dealt with, and then figure out what method is best for dealing with each AE.
This is just one more part of the reason I want a first party combat tracker - because if there is one, there is less of a need for a third party one, and as such there is a greater chance that a third party one won't exist, meaning there won't be the opportunity to just download the info needed for the encounter.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I would consider seeking out 'what the encounter is doing' via a reader, and then designing the raid around that as cheap play. Literally, the goal would be to have a script to play by so as not to risk death.
To me it's the difference between thinking a combat is hard and desiring to beat it through practice and skill improvement, and thinking a combat is hard and going to a Wiki and looking up the easiest way to defeat the combat. I can't ever be on board with this. Imo, it is lazy game play.
I am also not a min/max type of RPG Character builder, so I will never be on board with needing a Meter to tell determine if your character should wield the Magical Sword versus the Battle Ax and Shield.
Again, I am for a deteriorating one that requires in game actions/motives and upkeep. If IS decides to put one in it's not like I wouldn't play Ashes. It's just that I would prefer to play a game and learn for myself, then play a game, use a tool to tell me how to do it better, and then follow someone else's script or win every time. If I am always wining, the game isn't challenging, and I check out.
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Exactly!
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Just because someone tells you what would be best or how to something, that doesn't mean you are capable or willing. Unless, I suppose, they are walking you through it step by step. I don't see raid leaders having that type of time.
So players will still need a good understanding of their abilities and the game. At which point, they probably don't need the tracker, although they might want one to make the game easier.
In the end, I am still for deteriorating tracker-items.
I just don't think a tracker is necessary for the most difficult content creatable. If it is, then it seems like the game is playing with the tracker, which to me, would be a different type of game.
Right.
I hope that it's a good understanding of your own abilities along with a good understanding of how to support the abilities and augments chosen by your teammates.
I would consider seeking out 'what the encounter is doing' via a reader, and then designing the raid around that as cheap play. Literally, the goal would be to have a script to play by so as not to risk death.
To me it's the difference between thinking a combat is hard and desiring to beat it through practice and skill improvement, and thinking a combat is hard and going to a Wiki and looking up the easiest way to defeat the combat. I can't ever be on board with this. Imo, it is lazy game play.
I am also not a min/max type of RPG Character builder, so I will never be on board with needing a Meter to tell determine if your character should wield the Magical Sword versus the Battle Ax and Shield.
Again, I am for a deteriorating one that requires in game actions/motives and upkeep. If IS decides to put one in it's not like I wouldn't play Ashes. It's just that I would prefer to play a game and learn for myself, then play a game, use a tool to tell me how to do it better, and then follow someone else's script or win every time. If I am always wining, the game isn't challenging, and I check out.
There is a problem with having raid content be about skill improvement and such - top end raiders already have this under control by the time they start taking on raids.
If it is just about the players and their ability to use the skills and spells their class comes with, then raids will all be killed the day they first appear on a server.
This is exactly what group content is for.
You run group content to learn/master the abilities your class comes with - and once you have them mastered you go on raids where you use them at that already mastered level, and are then asked by the content to do other things. There is no new learning curve just because there are 32 more people.
Raids, good ones at least, ask you to do things that AREN'T a part of your classes skill set. They are puzzles more than combat targets.
Just because someone tells you what would be best or how to something, that doesn't mean you are capable or willing. Unless, I suppose, they are walking you through it step by step. I don't see raid leaders having that type of time.
So players will still need a good understanding of their abilities and the game. At which point, they probably don't need the tracker, although they might want one to make the game easier.
In the end, I am still for deteriorating tracker-items.
I just don't think a tracker is necessary for the most difficult content creatable. If it is, then it seems like the game is playing with the tracker, which to me, would be a different type of game.
Right.
I hope that it's a good understanding of your own abilities along with a good understanding of how to support the abilities and augments chosen by your teammates.
If this is what you want from content, then group content should be where you look. This is exactly what good group content should require from players, and nothing more.
By the time you get to raids, all of that should be considered the basics, and players are then asked for more from the content.
Edit to add; it is entirely possible that Ashes won't have raid content designed in the manner I'm suggesting. If it doesn't, it will follow games like Archeage rather than WoW or EQ2, both of which have the type of content I am talking about. In those latter games, even today, there is a thriving raiding scene.
In Archeage, a game where the raid targets are literally just group targets but with more HP, there is no PvE raiding scene at all.
Hopefully this helps you both understand why this is a fight I'm not willing to let go of.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Pretty sure we both understand, but will continue to disagree with you.
Pretty sure we both understand, but will continue to disagree with you.
So you're saying you understand that what you are asking for from raid content is literally what single group content exists to provide?
Asking for what you are from raid content is the same as asking for single geoup content to be about individual players just going in and doing their own thing, with no regard for anyone else.
You and I both know that solo content is supposed to cover that kind of play style.
I assume we also both understand that single group content is where players are supposed to figure out how to work together - the only thing we differ on - at a base level - is that you seem to think that raid content is just group content but with more people, whereas I think raid content should provide a challenge different to what geoup content provides.
The kind of raid content you seem to be after (group content but with more people) actually should exist. It should be the entry level content to raids.
What no one has seemed to be able to answer is exactly wherethe challenge in raiding is supposed to come from if nit from complexity. Adding more HP to an encounter doesn't make it harder, it makes it longer. Making an encounter do more damage doesn't make it harder, it just means you add another healer. A DPS check doesn't make an encounter harder, it just increases the gear required.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I believe the challenge should come from complexity. I just don't believe a tool is needed to provide genuine challenging content. I also do not believe a tool needs to be implemented to make that content easier.
The key term here, for me, is needed. Desired and wanted maybe, but not needed.
Comments
I normally default to the dps side of a lot of the meters, but I would hope if they put in a meter they would measure other parts of the group as well. I’ve used meters that have tracked basically all of my relevant info for me such as HPS, overheals, aggro percentages, damage intake, etc.
The point of my post was more about trying to make the use of a meter more meaningful than *turns on meter*, and locking it behind content so it’s more likely to be used by those who actually need it, instead of every person who wants to show off their
Staying with Log Horizon, Season 2 mid season during the raid battle, information/percentages are constantly getting called out that would be ridiculously hard to track on your own without aggro information, damage outputs, buff/debuff timers. That’s what made him so good at what he did, he was able to take in all of this information given to him by the “worlds” interface and turn it into on the fly tactics.
If you’re concerned that including a dps meter will lead to only tuning for optimal dps, that is the fault of the game itself not the meter. The meter should just be a tool, the fights should be interesting enough that everything you said in the quoted post is true with or without a meter.
I like the idea of it needing to be redone. One and done is far too easy to do and would lead to everyone having one. To even expand on this maybe it’s an actual item, could be crafted or not, but it could have a decay and after X amount of time it breaks. I like the idea of weekly better than daily. That way raid/dungeon leaders could get theirs and be good for an entire week of dungeons and raids. Then tie it to a quest that imbues the item the magic needed to read your parties info, or some other way that activates it.
I truly do hope that they don’t just slap a meter in the game. I agree that it possesses the ability to create toxic situations, but I do think it is a very valuable tool to have in an mmo
Making it an item that deteriorates after a week is good, that means that not only do people need to go out and earn it every week, but it also takes up a valuable inventory slot - something that will mean more in Ashes than in other games. Basically, it means people won't have one at all unless they actually value what it can do - and if someone values what it can do they probably know how to make use of it properly.
The other thing with treating it as a piece of content rather than as a tool - it makes it easier or developers to justify designing content that requires it.
With a combat tracker, the developers can throw an encounter at players that requires us to keep track of far more information than we could keep track of without one. If the tracker is a part of content, then developers don't even need to point players towards a tool to make that content possible, they need only point to another piece of content.
As an item that deteiroates with other gear, and that could be repaired, crafted, and sold, we turn it into something of higher value to the game. It can be a gold sink, it can be an obtainable goal, it can be something some players feel is required before doing some (or all) content. I think it would also cut down on other players in raids demanding to know your score (especially since it should not be something that can be traded).
If they want to give you gold, and trust you use said gold to buy a tracker, and you choose to do that then any negative response from having it would be on you.
Again, this won't solve most peoples issues with them being in the game. But I do appreciate this approach
It's the difference between a math exam where you have a calculator, and a math exam where you don't. If you were writing those exams, you'd be foolish to not make the exam where calculators are able to be used somewhat harder.
We can all pick examples of real world things to associate with our point.
In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example.
There are many things companies do that I don't agree with. Just because major players do things, that doesn't mean I have to jump on board. But I am capable of independent thought, like everyone else here, and therefore do not feel like a calculator is necessary to play the game.
Again, I am not against them, just the thought they are somehow required to make the game more difficult.
I am also still a fan of including them as in-game items that need to be crafted, purchased, and maintained.
When I think of Log Horizon in regard to Ashes, it's always about those characters having to learn to adjust to how their teammates play vs trying to play the same as if they were trying to maximize their own dps. That's the brilliance I'm hoping to reproduce.
If most players used the combat trackers like Shiroe does, sure, that would be great.
But, that's a utopian fantasy rather than reality.
Yes. I am trying very, very hard to avoid using real world examples so that people don't whine about me being too political.
The trick to making it harder is to do so while not excluding people from the content. It's really easy to make hard content if you don't actually mind if people don't complete it.
Higher math classes are "higher" because not everyone is able to wrap their head around the concepts.
Everyone is able to come to terms with how a calculator works.
Raids already do this.
If you don't do this on a raid, it may be why people look at combat trackers and then blame you.
Not everyone will use it. IS doesn't have to make the content easy, they can make the game difficult. They can make the game where top level players have to try multiple times to understand the scope of the combat. Just because it is hard, it doesn't mean you should be given a tool to make it easier.
You want a combat tracker to make difficult content easier so IS can make higher difficulty content?
So now I have to reverse engineer that. Really more important in pvp.
So let me ask you this question how many PvPers are going to want to come to Ashes of Creation and take the time to figure it out with out a dps meter or combat tracker when they already playing a game that allows one.
Really think people will want to reverse engineer their dps or defensive abilities.
For competative pvp it is pretty much a must have ...Not the dps meter the information is a must have.
My response is a simple, if not slightly time consuming one. Play the game.
You don't "Have" to reverse engineer one, although you might 'want' to.
If I start a new game, and decide it's not for me because the mechanics I enjoy are not being utilized I make a choice:
A) Continue playing the game as it is, or
I don't see why this isn't an option. There are many games I don't play because of this, and they all seem to do fine. There are many games I am still playing that are also doing fine. Ashes will obviously lose market space on the PvP only crowd and the PvE only crowd, so I'm not seeing where this potential loss of players is going to greatly effect their overall projections (assuming they have them).
Ashes is a niche game being a PvX that doesn't have full loot, PvE safe zones, and uses corruption as a 'punishment-like' deterrent to unwanted PvP.
Since when does every game released have to match everyone's play style?
"For competative pvp it is pretty much a must have ...Not the dps meter the information is a must have."
But there are so many games designed specifically for competitive PvP, which will likely all do it better than Ashes since Ashes is a PvX. So why wouldn't they play there for competitive PvP and play Ashes for different reasons?
Who knows, maybe Ashes will be such an awesome game some players might be willing to step outside their norm/comfort-zone and just enjoy it. PvX is not my style, but I am totally planning on embracing it because that is the type of game Ashes is, and I want to play Ashes.
Now you get it!
But seriously, this is actually about it.
If you are given a math exam where you have no access to a calculator, you can safely assume that the exam will be testing your ability to perform basic arithmetic, and perhaps your grasp on the basics of BEDMAS (or PODMAS).
However, if you have access to a calculator, it is a given that these things will be all correct - as these are all functions the calculator can perform for you. Rather, a math exam where you have access to a calculator is more about the formulae, the method or the logic used.
These exams are objectively harder because they contain all of the teachings from the earlier exam. However, once a student is at the level where such an exam may be handed to them, it is expected that complete knowledge of those basic functions are a give - so instead of burdening the student with having to continue to perform them, they allow them use of a calculator in order to be able to focus on the higher aspects of the exam.
I'm actually going to attempt to illustrate my point by logging back in to EQ2 when I have some free time, mentoring down to level 65 and running all the raid content where the encounters are level 55 (content that was in the game at launch or shortly after - designed without combat trackers taken in to account), and then with the same characters mentoring down to 75 and attempting the raid content at level 65 (DoF, the games first expansion - content that was designed with combat trackers in mind). I may also do level 75 content, will see if I get time.
I predict that I will be able to kill every single level 55 encounter in the game, but only a handful of level 65, and only one or two at level 75. This is because the encounters made with combat trackers in mind are more complex - there is more going on, and I won't be able to handle it all myself. Whereas the level 55 encounters - those designed without combat trackers in mind - are all comparatively straight forward even though they were something of a challenge at the time.
Meaning you wouldn't need complex material to satisfy the need for difficult content, because you wouldn't be using a tool to make the material easier for you.
To me this sounds a bit weird. You want the content to be difficult, but you want a tool to make it easier for you. This is the equivalent of using cheat codes to play a game, and then telling all your buddies the game is "too easy" without explaining that you are using cheat codes.
I don't think IS should provide a tool that makes Ashes easier, I think the player base should step up their performance level. I also don't think IS should focus on exceptionally hard content, since their plan is a large swath of players. Games like Dark Souls can increase the difficulty all they want, their player base is more limited, but also dedicated.
Again, I think the idea of the deteriorating personal tracker is a great idea. I also believe adding it to guilds for a perk (if chosen) is also a good idea. Using both of these methods would likely be even better.
But wanting a tool to make things easier, and then wanting more difficult things to occur because you have the tool, seems odd imo.
It isn't so much a case of making the content difficult - though this is what happens. It is about making the content more interesting.
There is only so many exams you can take where basic arithmetic (and algebra) is what is expected of you, but once you get that calculator, you can start on geometry, and then on to metric geometry, molecular geometry, non-Eucliden geometry etc (and hey, there are also hundreds of fields of math that are not geometry based!). All of these are far more interesting than anything that would result in an exam where there is no access to a calculator.
One of the basic functions of a raid is timing AE's. It is perfectly possible for someone to to do this with a stopwatch (or stopwatch function on a phone). However, once the raid as a whole has proven that they can time AE's, it becomes a cause of tedium to have to keep timing AE's manually like this.
Now, the developers could only put AE's in the game where the encounter has some massive emote before using the AE, but this is like handing out a math exam, but replacing all multiplication with repeated addition. Keeping an eye out for an emote is one skill, timing an AE is a different skill. Further, if the developers decide that an encounter has to have noticeable animations for their AE's, that limits what you can do with AE's on raid encounters. You couldn't give the encounter an AE with a 45 second timer and another with a 30 second timer, because then at 90 seconds when both AE's are to go off, one animation will overwrite the other (or, if the game is coded badly, the zone will crash).
The raid has proven that we can time these AE's, and further content will have more and more AE's involved with them. If the raid has access to something that can do the basic function (timing the AE), the raid as a whole can then focus on the bigger picture of dealing with out the multiple AEs in an encounter may interact with each other.
This is only true, as you said:
"Higher math classes are "higher" because not everyone is able to wrap their head around the concepts."
So, according to your theory now you want a tool to do more difficult content. But that more difficult content would only be appreciated by those that can wrap their heads (skill level) around it. So that falls back to my comment which you disagreed with
"In your example, there are multiple higher level math classes that can write difficult tests and not use a calculator because the goal is to find the form of an answer, not an actual answer. Therefor, using your example, I could say IS could easily make the content harder and have you find "a form" of an answer that works. You wouldn't need a calculator to determine the "exact" answer. But again, it's just an example."
So you are effectively saying that just having the tool doesn't make the content easier. You still have to understand and study the content, in this case playing the game. Only after playing the game for so long will you be able to use the tool to actually make the game easier.
My point is by then, the content should be easier because your skill level has improved. So adding the usage of the tool at that point will only make slightly challenging content easier.
Then you ask for harder content because the tool allows you to not be challenged anymore.
Whereas without the tool, the content could still be more challenging.
-Mathematical Rant- TL/DR: A tool will inherently mean the game is designed at a low enough level a majority of players would not need the tool
I have a bachelors in Mathematics. I assure you there are plenty of geometry tests I have taken that were difficult and did not require a calculator. To that extent, there were test that if someone unfamiliar with the concepts were given a calculator, they would still fail. I tried to dissuade you from using mathematics as an example, but you insist on doing so.
You can be tested on knowledge and skill, which rarely if ever requires a calculator. Those tests given to individuals without the knowledge and skill will fail even with programmable calculators. Because the calculator can only quantify input, it can't understand the subject matter. Which, to your point with the tracker, makes the tracker a tool that is used inherently to do something the tool doesn't understand. So users that don't understand it, as you have pointed out, will fail to use it properly.
You can also be tested on "do you know how to use your calculator" which is pretty much any test in mathematics before algebra. That being said, you can still be tested on your knowledge in algebra from beginner to geometric algebra or abstract algebra without ever requiring a calculator.
Tests given after high school, and high school equivalent math classes, are not tests designed for you to show how well you manipulate a calculator. Lower level math classes however are designed for you to use your tool. Because it allows for standardized testing with quantitative and comparable results across demographics.
If IS designs encounters specifically due to the implementation of a tracker, than I could say based on your example and my familiarity with it, that the content was made easy to understand so everyone could use the tool and be comparably equal. In which case, the content will be stagnate, require less base understanding of the game, and repetitive.
@noaani, if you were insisting on the usage of Applied Mathematics or Physics my rant would be baseless. That said, your statement of "higher level math classes are..." would apply. Because a vast majority of people can't sit down, open a physics book for the first time, and just start accurately answering every question.
A raid only needs a few people that can wrap their heads around what is going on (one is technically enough). Once this one person understands, then the raid as a whole understands. However, since the kind of person that enjoys top end raiding also enjoys this kind of problem solving, more than half of every raid guild I have been a part of (even more casual guilds) have been keen problem solvers.
The rest of the raid may not fully grasp the details of what the encounter is doing, but they still have a solid appreciation that they themselves have far more to do on such encounters than they do on the more mundane encounters.
Basically, one person needs to fully grasp what is going on, then everyone can enjoy the greater variety. At that point it is up to the individuals in the raid to perform their specific task (which is usually not something that a combat tracker can assist with) in order for the raid to be a success.
If Intrepid want there to be encounters that players aspire to being able to kill, where is the block that is stopping them coming from? It cant be gear, because players already aspire to get better gear. The ONLY other mechanism that has worked in ANY mmo that I am aware of is encounter complexity.
If only one person per class needed to understand the concepts in applied mathematics in order for the whole class to understand, I'd wager there would be a lot more people in fields where this is required.
That seems to be the concept.
So players will still need a good understanding of their abilities and the game. At which point, they probably don't need the tracker, although they might want one to make the game easier.
In the end, I am still for deteriorating tracker-items.
I just don't think a tracker is necessary for the most difficult content creatable. If it is, then it seems like the game is playing with the tracker, which to me, would be a different type of game.
There are exactly two scenarios in which a raid leader will dictate a build to a player.
The first is because the raid leader doesn't know what they are doing. They see other raid leaders dictate to their raid and they think that is how raid leaders are supposed to act. They see videos of raids on YouTube or Twitch and try to emulate the behavior they see - being totally ignorant of the fact that the people they were watching were playing up for the audience.
This kind of behavior is 100% limited to pick up raids - because such leaders can't get a raid full of people to follow them.
Essentially, this kind of raid leader is the raid level equivalent of the issue in groups of ninja looting. You don't judge all groups based on ninja-looting, because you know full well that the way to avoid it is to get yourself in to a community (whether makeshift or formal) that runs content together often. Once in such a community, ninja-looting is essentially a thing of the past.
Same for raids. If you get yourself in to a community that raids together often, you get away from raid leaders that don't know what they are doing. Once you get in to a regular raiding community, raid leaders start to realize that the player is more important than the numbers. When you hit an encounter that doesn't have a DPS check, doesn't do all that much damage, but does ask something of members of your raid that is non-standard for any class in the game, you quickly realize that the people are all that matters.
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However, as mentioned above, there is a second time a raid leader may dictate a build to you. This is when the content dictates a build to the raid leader.
Raids are not simply larger groups.
In groups, you have a tank, a healer, some DPS and support. Everyone's role is basically set, and doesn't really vary from these basics.
This is also how things start off in raids. However, the thing with raid content is that it asks things of players and classes that are non-standard. This is what separates raid content from group content - not the number of people present.
There may be raid encounters that requires a rogue to tank, there may be raid encounters that requires a mage to solo tough encounters (tough for soloing at least), there may be raid encounters that require a single group within that raid to break off and act as an independent group, there may be raid encounters that require healers to spec for DPS, there may be raid encounters that require a very high degree of in combat mobility for specific people.
If you are going on a raid and you are a rogue, if that encounter requires a rogue to tank and the raid leader looks to you to fulfill this requirement of the content, you either make that happen or admit to yourself that you are not well suited to raid content.
If you are a healer and the encounter has adds that only take damage from healers, if the raid leader asks you to spec for DPS, then you spec for DPS. The raid leader is putting the core mechanic in your hands - at least in part. This isn't a time for you to complain that it isn't what you are there for, it is your time to shine, to show that you aren't a one trick pony.
If you are a healer that can has proven they are able to handle this situation, and this situation is 6 boss encounters in to a raid zone, the raid leader won't care if you afk follow the raid up to that point as long as you perform that task - because the content demands it.
Not being willing to perform the task that the raid encounter asks of you is no different to a solo healer expecting someone else to do all the damage to the solo content because they are a healer and they will play the way they want to play - and that way involves only healing. In the same way solo content asks different things of you than what group content asks of you, raid content asks for different things from you again - although raids have the scope to ask of you every single thing that group or solo content could ask of you, if the encounters are designed in that manner.
Most of the time on a raid, you perform your basic role - however, when you are required to perform a different role, you are expected to perform that role without issue.
If you want to spec for a role and stay within that role, then raids are simply not for you, because that is not what raids are about. Nor is it what they should be about - we have single group content for that.
The person figuring out what is going on isn't micro-managing every spell that every person in the raid casts - in fact, they are hardly even looking at what the raid is doing. This person is focused almost 100% on what the encounter is doing.
There seems to be some confusion here though.
Once you get to raids, combat trackers aren't really needed for looking at what people on your raid are doing. The expectation is that by the time the raid starts, every member of your raid understands their base function and are able to perform it to an acceptable degree.
The only four times when a combat tracker is used to look at the raid is:
1; friendly competition, which is usually within people in the same raid.
2; when the encounter asks something of someone in your raid that is non-standard for their class. A combat tracker is very useful here.
3; when things go wrong when the raid as a whole thinks they know the encounter. This is for problem solving.
4; assessing the ability of a new recruit, but only if the raid is taking on content that dictates a minimum level of performance - though this is usually done on a run specific to this end, where the player in question is placed in various situations.
The most useful thing a combat tracker does isn't about looking at your own raid, it is that it will tell you what the encounter is doing (or has done).
Any raid leader that is looking at what the members of their raid did after a successful encounter (unless success wasn't expected) is literally always someone you don't want leading your raid.
As to the comment about content designed with a combat tracker being able to be made harder than content designed without one - a raid is able to actually deal with (whether heal through, cure, joust or block) more AE's than you can expect that same raid to keep track of.
Now, some developers put cues in the encounter on when they are about to use an AE/ability. This is cool, there is absolutely a skill in being able to observe the encounter and react to what it is doing.
This absolutely is and should be a mechanic that raid designers use.
However, so is using timed AE's and abilities. Abilities that get used without any warning - other than the fact that they are used every ** seconds.
Being able to deal with this is a different skill, one that is at least as valid as being able to observe the encounter's behavior.
Where a combat tracker assists in this specific situation is it allows the person charged with tracking the AE's to be able to work out the timer on each AE that needs to be tracked (not all do), and set a timer in the combat tracker rather than using a different program on their computer or phone.
The challenge here isn't actually in timing the AE, it is in gathering the information needed to be able to time the AE. Once that information is gathered and once the decision is made as to what to do for each AE, the actual challenge of the raid has been overcome. The fact that you are still using the combat tracker to time the AE doesn't mean you are using the combat tracker to make the encounter easier (as the encounter is exactly the same if you use a phone app).
In an encounter with 15 timed AE's, if there is a combat tracker the challenge is in dealing with the AE's. If there is no combat tracker the challenge is in dealing with 15 timers - not an enjoyable experience.
However, third party combat trackers usually allow you to import a file specific to an encounter that has the timers on all the AE's ready to go. This kind of thing I dislike, as no one in the raid has had to do the ground work to learn the encounter, learn which AE's need to be dealt with, and then figure out what method is best for dealing with each AE.
This is just one more part of the reason I want a first party combat tracker - because if there is one, there is less of a need for a third party one, and as such there is a greater chance that a third party one won't exist, meaning there won't be the opportunity to just download the info needed for the encounter.
To me it's the difference between thinking a combat is hard and desiring to beat it through practice and skill improvement, and thinking a combat is hard and going to a Wiki and looking up the easiest way to defeat the combat. I can't ever be on board with this. Imo, it is lazy game play.
I am also not a min/max type of RPG Character builder, so I will never be on board with needing a Meter to tell determine if your character should wield the Magical Sword versus the Battle Ax and Shield.
Again, I am for a deteriorating one that requires in game actions/motives and upkeep. If IS decides to put one in it's not like I wouldn't play Ashes. It's just that I would prefer to play a game and learn for myself, then play a game, use a tool to tell me how to do it better, and then follow someone else's script or win every time. If I am always wining, the game isn't challenging, and I check out.
I hope that it's a good understanding of your own abilities along with a good understanding of how to support the abilities and augments chosen by your teammates.
If it is just about the players and their ability to use the skills and spells their class comes with, then raids will all be killed the day they first appear on a server.
This is exactly what group content is for.
You run group content to learn/master the abilities your class comes with - and once you have them mastered you go on raids where you use them at that already mastered level, and are then asked by the content to do other things. There is no new learning curve just because there are 32 more people.
Raids, good ones at least, ask you to do things that AREN'T a part of your classes skill set. They are puzzles more than combat targets.
If this is what you want from content, then group content should be where you look. This is exactly what good group content should require from players, and nothing more.
By the time you get to raids, all of that should be considered the basics, and players are then asked for more from the content.
Edit to add; it is entirely possible that Ashes won't have raid content designed in the manner I'm suggesting. If it doesn't, it will follow games like Archeage rather than WoW or EQ2, both of which have the type of content I am talking about. In those latter games, even today, there is a thriving raiding scene.
In Archeage, a game where the raid targets are literally just group targets but with more HP, there is no PvE raiding scene at all.
Hopefully this helps you both understand why this is a fight I'm not willing to let go of.
So you're saying you understand that what you are asking for from raid content is literally what single group content exists to provide?
Asking for what you are from raid content is the same as asking for single geoup content to be about individual players just going in and doing their own thing, with no regard for anyone else.
You and I both know that solo content is supposed to cover that kind of play style.
I assume we also both understand that single group content is where players are supposed to figure out how to work together - the only thing we differ on - at a base level - is that you seem to think that raid content is just group content but with more people, whereas I think raid content should provide a challenge different to what geoup content provides.
The kind of raid content you seem to be after (group content but with more people) actually should exist. It should be the entry level content to raids.
What no one has seemed to be able to answer is exactly wherethe challenge in raiding is supposed to come from if nit from complexity. Adding more HP to an encounter doesn't make it harder, it makes it longer. Making an encounter do more damage doesn't make it harder, it just means you add another healer. A DPS check doesn't make an encounter harder, it just increases the gear required.
The key term here, for me, is needed. Desired and wanted maybe, but not needed.