DPS Meter Megathread

@Noaani

Give me one or more examples of Raid/Public Meter or Log that helps future raids but doesn't also allow or even encourage blacklisting of players or classes?

I have played a lot of games and have yet to see such a device. I have never even read of one. That doesn't mean there isn't one, so here is your chance to educate me and change my mind as you say they exist over and over, but never state what you base that on.

It has been my experience that either you have one and are willing to have the player base suffer its deficiencies in the hope that the benefits outweigh them or you don't have one.

My opinion of my opinion is that it is MY opinion. Having an opinion is not complicated, we all have them. Enumerating a life-time of reasons or even a day's worth is complicated and unnecessary (IMHO). The difference between Fact and Truth is the same as the difference between Math and Statistics

I thought my first post was concise, it appears I was mistaken. I will fix that.

TheMarten wrote: »

I would hate for globally accessible metering. It leads to class (subclass) exclusions by meta-crunching players that think they can tell by a single number if you are a good player or not. (REDACTED for clarity)

If the Devs decide on a meter (I honestly hope they don't) it needs to be a private meter so that players can tweak their own class and not have some other person telling them how they should be playing. Personally I would allocate that Dev time to other tasks.

I await your inevitable reply

Natasha wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Natasha wrote: »

I really hope they don't add trackers or there'll be a server with Noaani In it yelling numbers in chat from raid boss encounters and linking it to group efficiency.

No there wont.

Why would I do that?

You said it yourself earlier. If you've got a group clearing content you'd want builds that are optimised for that, as well as having people in your guild be the best [insert class here] they can be, otherwise why have them?

With you so far.

So with a tracker you'd be able to demonstrate with the trackers information to back it up the group that would be perfect for the content you want to run.

I mean, I could, but at this point I'm not sure what needs to be demonstrated.

And you'd most likely ignore other applications of people who fail to match that number.

Not at all.

I never expect any new recruit to a top end guild to be as good as people that have been in that environment for a while - especially if gear is involved.

Rather, you recruit people that have appropriate personalities to fit in to the guild, have a desire to play the game in that kind of environment, and are wanting to learn and improve.

Which is why I said you'll be in chat yelling numbers and equating it to efficiency if you ever have to find someone.

Still nope.

TheMarten wrote: »

Give me one or more examples of Raid/Public Meter or Log that helps future raids but doesn't also allow or even encourage blacklisting of players or classes?

This is the wrong question to ask.

What you are suggesting is that not having a combat tracker in Ashes will mean that the game won't develop a class or build meta.

To that, I say the following:

If a game has a class that is so bad that players with objective data on all classes simply do not wish to take that class along on content, why are you blaming the fact that players have that data?

Should the blame for this not be squarely, 100% on the developers for failing at class balance?

Further to that, if eliminating a meta is your objective, I would like to direct your attention to Archeage.

In that game, there is VERY low combat tracker use. Yet in that game, there was a very rigid meta, where if you weren't one of three builds, you weren't coming. This is in a game with 56 classes at launch (220 now, from my understanding - and now I believe there are about 7 classes that are accepted by the player base).

What happens is, the player base in general either accepts or rejects specific builds. If objective data exists to base this on, it is used. If objective data is not available, then subjective data is used. The one thing that remains though, is that the player base in a game like Ashes will have a meta, and if you want to join in, you will follow it.

So really, what I'm saying is that this thing that you are saying trackers should not exist in order to prevent is something that will happen regardless, and if objective data on classes is present, is a result of poor class design rather than being a result of trackers existing.

If we assume Intrepid are competent developers (if you do not wish to make this assumption, let me know), then many builds of all classes will be viable in many different situations.

In order for players to understand this, we will need objective data on those classes. The more accurate and complete that objective data is, the greater the number of builds will be generally accepted by the games population.

That's the problem with having opinions against something as near omniscient as a tracker. If you say "this thing happens with trackers", and someone can find a game where that thing didn't happen, or if you say "this thing won't happen if trackers aren't in the game", and someone finds an example of a game where tracker use is low but that this still happened, then it kind of renders your point moot.

If you wish to still maintain that same opinion on trackers, despite it being built on a non-existent foundation, again, that just shows the value you place in your own opinion. To maintain this position right now, you must view your opinion as so weightless as to not even need a foundation to rest on.

Songcaller

My experience with meters is slightly different. When I used to top the healing charts my guild at the time lambasted me every time I raided with others or ran PuG Raids instead of doing Guild Raids. The main reason was because most of the other heals in the guild we designed for maximum dps output and not healing output. Its why I was also able to solo heal encounters. We cleared stuff faster with a solo healer setup than when healers tried to top DPS. Trackers cause weird issues where everyone tries to be something a class simply isn't designed to be.

Tragnar

I wouldn't say trackers cause healers to focus on pumping dps, but instead combat log leaderboards such as any *game*logs.com where ppl sabotage the raid in pursuit of better performance number decided by the site owners - it is just a leaderboard measuring contest of everybody's peepee

however that is not really what trackers are used for by raid leaders, because these guys focus on getting the encounter killed first and the measuring contest begins when guilds transition to farming out the raid instead of progressing through it

however in ashes afaik there will not be "farm raids" because as i understand it, when you clear a raid - that raid stays cleared until you open a different raid - so in essence you shouldn't get into a situation when guilds are on grind farm of a certain raid

- at least that's the design goal afaik

Noaani wrote: »

TheMarten wrote: »

Give me one or more examples of Raid/Public Meter or Log that helps future raids but doesn't also allow or even encourage blacklisting of players or classes?

This is the wrong question to ask.

You can't give me even one example of a Meter that works the way you say they can? Therefore I am asking the wrong question... Got-it.

Noaani wrote: »

What you are suggesting is that not having a combat tracker in Ashes will mean that the game won't develop a class or build meta.

No. As long as there is air to breath there will be jerks, what I am suggesting is we don't need to give tools to them.

I do trust the Devs at this point. I think they should have the tools and if they see a need for balancing they can take action. What I have seen in the past is when jerks with tools think they should weedout players, games wither and die.

Noaani wrote: »

To that, I say the following:

This part was almost constructive and then you had to fall back to your twisting of logic, words, and the value you put on your point of view over anyone else's.

Noaani wrote: »

That's the problem with having opinions against something as near omniscient as a tracker. If you say "this thing happens with trackers", and someone can find a game where that thing didn't happen,

Marten:

Noaani wrote: »

or if you say "this thing won't happen if trackers aren't in the game", and someone finds an example of a game where tracker use is low but that this still happened, then it kind of renders your point moot.

If you wish to still maintain that same opinion on trackers, despite it being built on a non-existent foundation, again, that just shows the value you place in your own opinion. To maintain this position right now, you must view your opinion as so weightless as to not even need a foundation to rest on.

Noaani:

Marten:
Okey, I get it. I am wrong because you are right!

Moving on.

I can foresee Noaani's next post...

Hatham

I feel sorry for any developer that has to read this 133 thread monstrosity.

Hatham wrote: »

I feel sorry for any developer that has to read this 133 thread monstrosity.

@Hatham How do you eat an elephant?

One bite at a time.

TheMarten wrote: »

You can't give me even one example of a Meter that works the way you say they can? Therefore I am asking the wrong question... Got-it.

Not quite.

First, I never said or suggested that a meta wouldn't result in players knowing which builds were best in what ever situation. I specifically singled out your case in regards to support classes as being actual bullshit - as there are real world examples of the literal opposite of what you were assuming would happen actually happening.

Further to that point, you made a supposition based on an assumption. You then asked a question based on that supposition.

I pointed out to you that the assumption at the start of that is incorrect. I know it's unfair to quote your own post to point out where you are wrong, but I'm a dick sometimes, so I will do it.

TheMarten wrote: »

I would hate for globally accessible metering. It leads to class (subclass) exclusions by meta-crunching players that think they can tell by a single number if you are a good player or not.

See what you said there? You said combat trackers lead to a game having a meta.

This is factually incorrect. A meta will exist with or without trackers - and as such a combat tracker absolutely DOES NOT lead to a meta.

I mean, you are even agreeing with this point now. You initially stated the above - that a combat tracker leads to a meta - and are now saying that a combat tracker is just a tool that some people will use in order to assist them in creating a meta.

The next point with a meta is simple. Because Ashes will be more unpredictable than most games (than WoW, at least), there is scope for more classes to be accepted. Where in a game like WoW, one build of one class may be the best DPS and thus the only viable build, in Ashes, a second build of that same class may have better survivability, and so is viable in a PvP setting.

Since the group doesn't know if they will see PvP or not, they are likely to be accepting of either build.

Further to that, since dungeons are open, there is no guarantee as to what bosses you are going to come up against. This opens up the meta to even more classes.

However, this will only be the case if the classes are actually objectively known. If they are not known to this level, there will be three or four accepted builds per primary architype, as opposed to three or four builds per class that would be accepted with trackers.

---

Lets try and break this down. You are aware that the game will develop a meta. We both agree on this. This isn't just jerks being jerks, this is people making the most of obfuscated information in order to try and pull as much success out of the void as possible.

So, from that corner of understanding that a meta will exist, I have to assume your next priority is for that meta to be as wide as possible - that players accept as many builds as possible. Again, if this is not something you agree with, let me know - I don't want to be seen putting words in your mount or anything.

So, a meta will exist, but we want it to include as many builds as possible. Ashes has content that lends itself to many different builds being viable at many different points in time. We agree that we think Intrepid are capable of developing classes with many viable builds.

Now the thing you need to get past is the decades players have of meta bias - many players have spent years or actual decades in games where there were only ever one or two viable builds for a given class. That is the mindset people will be going in to Ashes with.

That is what you need to break through. Not jerks, decades of experience of a monolithic meta.

Literally the only way to break that is with objective data.

Hatham wrote: »

I feel sorry for any developer that has to read this 133 thread monstrosity.

You think anyone at Intrepid is reading this?

Songcaller

Tragnar wrote: »

I wouldn't say trackers cause healers to focus on pumping dps, but instead combat log leaderboards such as any *game*logs.com where ppl sabotage the raid in pursuit of better performance number decided by the site owners - it is just a leaderboard measuring contest of everybody's peepee

however that is not really what trackers are used for by raid leaders, because these guys focus on getting the encounter killed first and the measuring contest begins when guilds transition to farming out the raid instead of progressing through it

however in ashes afaik there will not be "farm raids" because as i understand it, when you clear a raid - that raid stays cleared until you open a different raid - so in essence you shouldn't get into a situation when guilds are on grind farm of a certain raid

- at least that's the design goal afaik

Yeah, I mean the tracker in question didn't have an overlay, it was just pasted in a macro after each fight - its the preferred tracker system i tend to use when available. If its an overlay tracker then I can't resist staring at the overlay in down moments and its just not very enjoyable. The system you described for the raids sounds interesting but I'm not sure how beneficial it will be in the long run. We have to get resources to craft gear and also maintain gear. Even if you got a legendary item as a drop, you'd still need to maintain the gear. I'm not sure how prevalent the resources will be or how often we can farm a raid. Make no mistake, even if a raid can only be done once every 6 months it will eventually be on farm for certain guilds.

I don't think you are being a "dick" but who am I to disagree? I have been wrong about everything else so far

I had to stop reading after you quoted me as it seem you don't know the difference between adjectives and nouns. "meta-crunching" (adjective) "player" (noun).

Sorry if you made any valid points after that, I just couldn't move past that. I will have to trust the Devs to pan out any gold dust from the rest of that post.

Until the next thread.

Peace!

TheMarten wrote: »

I don't think you are being a "dick" but who am I to disagree? I have been wrong about everything else so far

I had to stop reading after you quoted me as it seem you don't know the difference between adjectives and nouns. "meta-crunching" (adjective) "player" (noun).

Sorry if you made any valid points after that, I just couldn't move past that. I will have to trust the Devs to pan out any gold dust from the rest of that post.

Until the next thread.

As a means of attempting to say "that thing I just said that you pulled me up on so now I am going to pretend I didn't say it", as a means to back out of a position you know you cant claw your way back from, you're a long way short of Dygz here.

I'm not even sure what it is you are trying to say.

I mean, yes, meta-crunching is obviously an adjective as used, but it is also a verb in other situations (for example, if Azehrae asked me what I was doing, I may reply "I am meta-crunching with the existing combat tracker for Ashes to parse developer livestream content just to ruin TheMarten's day").

If you are stating that you have concerns with meta-crunching players and you dont then specify a verb that you are specifically concerned with, then the default fallback is to assume your concern is in regards to the adjective you used to describe the noun. If it is not, you either should have used a better adjective to get your point across, or should have added the verb in for clarity.

This is stuff you should have learned when you were what, 11?

So, what are you trying to say in your above post? Is the concern you have with meta-crunching players something other than their meta-crunching activities? Or are you just trying to back out of a situation you see no other way out of, as I suspect?

TheMarten wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I have a love-hate relationship with dps meters. On the one hand my inner nerd loves pouring over the data you get from them. But at the same time I hate having to rely on them to know if you are playing well or not.

I'd prefer they stayed out of the game unless we absolutely needed them.

burnthefern wrote: »

Again, this still leads to exclusion. I never mentioned exclusion based on a single metric, I'm talking about people not pulling their weight when all the metrics are considered. If someone's class can't perform to a certain standard, and as a player they are unable to mechanically perform at the skill level required, would you keep them onboard? I personally wouldn't. That's exclusion. You seem to be under the impression that every raid leader will act altruistically when given access to this data. People are pretty shitty, and while I believe you would use the meters to better the raid by figuring out who needs advice instead of a kicking, I firmly believe most wouldn't. Now, again, I do agree that there should be meters, however I don't think we will see them because of the exclusion that they bring.

I would like to add my voice behind the above quotes as both are well said.

I would hate for globally accessible metering. It leads to class (subclass) exclusions by meta-crunching players that think they can tell by a single number if you are a good player or not. Support classes would get hit the hardest in what many refer to as "end game" content. DPS/Healing meters do not tell you what NPC-debuffs lead to the biggest increase in damage, just that Barb-x did the damage. DPS/Healing meters do not tell you who prevented players from taking damage via buffs/debuffs, just what cleric-x did the most healing.

If the Devs decide on a meter (I honestly hope they don't) it needs to be a private meter so that players can tweak their own class and not have some other person telling them how they should be playing. Personally I would allocate that Dev time to other tasks.

Steven has said there will be no meters its one guy responding to everyone and a small handful of others trying to get meters. Most people here have said they dont want meters as well.

Natasha wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Natasha wrote: »

I really hope they don't add trackers or there'll be a server with Noaani In it yelling numbers in chat from raid boss encounters and linking it to group efficiency.

No there wont.

Why would I do that?

You said it yourself earlier. If you've got a group clearing content you'd want builds that are optimised for that, as well as having people in your guild be the best [insert class here] they can be, otherwise why have them?

So with a tracker you'd be able to demonstrate with the trackers information to back it up the group that would be perfect for the content you want to run.

And you'd most likely ignore other applications of people who fail to match that number.

Which is why I said you'll be in chat yelling numbers and equating it to efficiency if you ever have to find someone.

YUUUUUUUP and based on his personality you know its so true that it would happen. Stubborn and bias and will argue for 200 pages for what he wants and not what the community wants at a large.

@Noaani It doesn't mater if this thread stays at the top and you try twist logic or stretch peoples opinions in form of your own fantasy of bias. People don't agree with what you want you are in the extreme minority people agree with what Steven wants with no meters

Tragnar

@Mag7spy Bruh, I love how you can represent the opinions of the silent majority - do you work for a living reading peoples minds?

Tragnar wrote: »

@Mag7spy Bruh, I love how you can represent the opinions of the silent majority - do you work for a living reading peoples minds?

There are 100 previous threads you can read them and see how many people are against trackers. Im only speak for the information that is in the thread.

Or are you saying what they say didn't matter because they don't want to argue with the same person for 200 pages?