NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Yeah, but it is still a simple mechanic. It is still the encounter essentially telling you what is happening, rather than you having to figure it out. It is just an animation rather than text. Which is the problem. You do realize that you just said "make mechanics only visible to those who use trackers", right?
Noaani wrote: » Yeah, but it is still a simple mechanic. It is still the encounter essentially telling you what is happening, rather than you having to figure it out. It is just an animation rather than text. Which is the problem.
Again, that example was the very basic one. You could have misdirections, double or tripple triggered mechanics, ability pattern based mechanics (that would only show up if a particular string of abilities happened within the rng use of boss abilities), class combo mechanics (at which point every single raid would have their own mechanics and might never see different ones, if they don't change their raid setup). And of course you could have the combination of all of the above and more.
Now I don't know which methods the players used before that hardcore parsing, nor am I saying that I could've somehow magically understood how the mechanic worked, but I'm assuming they've tried all kinds of stuff, so if there was ever any kind of hint as to how the system might've worked - they would've found it.
We start carrying semi-automatics, they buy automatics. We start wearing Kevlar, they buy armor piercing rounds.
NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Perhaps what you are not realizing is that exactly this happens in games with trackers. If you attempt to look at a combat tracker after a days raiding and you have no clue at all what happened in the encounter, you will spend a few hours staring at numbers and graphs, and still have no idea. You need to recognize patterns in combat, you need to have an eye out to see what - if anything - is going on around you, you need to pay attention. And then you confirm what you think you saw in a tracker. If the developers are good, they will find a way where you need to recognize that pattern or what ever, but then they subvert your expectation in some manner. This way, the encounter requires you to first see the thing that is going on, but then require you to look in to it more closely, and only then - after both observing and analyzing - can you get a true picture of what is happening. I guess my approach is just different. I want to see that and then apply what I thought I saw in the next fight. And then the next and the next and so on, iterating on my gameplay until I win. But do all of that with just the info that I and my raidmates see, instead of what the omniscient tracker sees.
Noaani wrote: » Perhaps what you are not realizing is that exactly this happens in games with trackers. If you attempt to look at a combat tracker after a days raiding and you have no clue at all what happened in the encounter, you will spend a few hours staring at numbers and graphs, and still have no idea. You need to recognize patterns in combat, you need to have an eye out to see what - if anything - is going on around you, you need to pay attention. And then you confirm what you think you saw in a tracker. If the developers are good, they will find a way where you need to recognize that pattern or what ever, but then they subvert your expectation in some manner. This way, the encounter requires you to first see the thing that is going on, but then require you to look in to it more closely, and only then - after both observing and analyzing - can you get a true picture of what is happening.
Noaani wrote: » However, this is why the best option here is to have the developer of the game also be the developer of the combat tracker. If the developer develops both, they can control both. If the developer only develops one, the developer only controls one - yet both will exist.
Noaani wrote: » If you think about this statement, you should be able to understand why raiding where combat trackers are factored in is far better (more challenging, more complex, more chaotic) than raiding without trackers being factored in.
NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » However, this is why the best option here is to have the developer of the game also be the developer of the combat tracker. If the developer develops both, they can control both. If the developer only develops one, the developer only controls one - yet both will exist. I think that's called "create a problem and sell the solution", except in a more consumer-friendly way, where instead of selling, the creator of the problem just gives you the solution
Noaani wrote: » But if you assume trackers will exist, and as such future content will have to be created with them in mind - is this not the best option?
NiKr wrote: » I mean, if you are trying to appeal to the audience that will make and use them - yes.
NiKr wrote: » Nah, I'm just too far on the other side of the spectrum. I don't see invisible mechanics as fun, nor invisible puzzles as interesting.
If you and I are in a group that has specific requirements, and you are not meeting those requirements and so I politely inform you of this but you refuse - who is the toxic one, me or you? If you refuse to meet the requirements of the content, that means that I as group leader have no option other than to not take you on that content - but that was your decision, not mine. I have my group to think about, not your feelings.
Noaani wrote: » A competition to be on top of the meter isn't inherently bad. If it were, we would all be saying the same thing about arena leaderboards. I mean, Ashes intends to have PvE leaderboards anyway, so if things like this are the cause of toxicity, then we can't really point to trackers and say they will increase the toxicity in Ashes.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I believe Noaani has said this before, probably multiple times. If Trackers are causing toxicity in your game in a serious way, your game is designed wrong. But the design that will lead to toxicity is what you seem to want. Trackers will cause toxicity if DPS is essential to a fight. If people are failing fights because they aren't hitting DPS checks, they will become "toxic" towards people who they see are under performing on the meters. If you think meters should be necessary for competitive pve, then i'd assume you think pve needs to have these dps checks as part of its challenge. DPS checks are more of a gating mechanic than something that makes content difficult. There are plenty of none-dps related challenges that can be incorporated in pve to make it difficult. How is that what I seem to want? Trackers aren't primarily for DPS. If Intrepid decided to hide the damage numbers in the log, I'll still need to write the same parser. If Intrepid has a good design for Bard, the Bard will probably decide more about anyone's DPS than any other party member, and it's the Bard who will want to know that. The whole 'people will be mistreated for underperforming in damage' is not a Tracker problem, it's a design problem. I have no more interest in DPS check bosses than any other kind. What aspect of challenging PVE are they necessary for? Challenging PvE doesnt tell you want is going on. You have to figure it out for yourself. All the comments of "just dont stand in the telegraph" and things like that only work if the ability is telegraphed. Often times, the thing that went wrong isnt obvious. One mob in particular would explode if your raid DPS on it got too high. No warning, no hint at what went wrong - just boom. Literally the only way to work this out is to notice that it exploded a specific amount of time after your raid DPS hit a specific level. Without a tracker, that just isnt possible. Now, the argument could be made that the developers should have given a hint as to what went wrong- bit I would ask, why? If the game is giving you a hint, working it out becomes trivial. The encounter is literally telling you want to do. If that same encounter had a line of text saying "you are doing too much damage, I'm exploding", then working it out after the first pull would be expected. The way it went though, it took people actual hundreds of pulls over actual weeks to work out what the trigger for the explosion was. Some guilds took months (keeping in mind sharing info on top end mobs wasnt a thing). Put simply, without combat trackers, the game has to tell players what is going on. With combat trackers, the game can leave it up to players to figure out. It should then be obvious how one of these willbe inherently harder than the other.
mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I believe Noaani has said this before, probably multiple times. If Trackers are causing toxicity in your game in a serious way, your game is designed wrong. But the design that will lead to toxicity is what you seem to want. Trackers will cause toxicity if DPS is essential to a fight. If people are failing fights because they aren't hitting DPS checks, they will become "toxic" towards people who they see are under performing on the meters. If you think meters should be necessary for competitive pve, then i'd assume you think pve needs to have these dps checks as part of its challenge. DPS checks are more of a gating mechanic than something that makes content difficult. There are plenty of none-dps related challenges that can be incorporated in pve to make it difficult. How is that what I seem to want? Trackers aren't primarily for DPS. If Intrepid decided to hide the damage numbers in the log, I'll still need to write the same parser. If Intrepid has a good design for Bard, the Bard will probably decide more about anyone's DPS than any other party member, and it's the Bard who will want to know that. The whole 'people will be mistreated for underperforming in damage' is not a Tracker problem, it's a design problem. I have no more interest in DPS check bosses than any other kind. What aspect of challenging PVE are they necessary for?
Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I believe Noaani has said this before, probably multiple times. If Trackers are causing toxicity in your game in a serious way, your game is designed wrong. But the design that will lead to toxicity is what you seem to want. Trackers will cause toxicity if DPS is essential to a fight. If people are failing fights because they aren't hitting DPS checks, they will become "toxic" towards people who they see are under performing on the meters. If you think meters should be necessary for competitive pve, then i'd assume you think pve needs to have these dps checks as part of its challenge. DPS checks are more of a gating mechanic than something that makes content difficult. There are plenty of none-dps related challenges that can be incorporated in pve to make it difficult. How is that what I seem to want? Trackers aren't primarily for DPS. If Intrepid decided to hide the damage numbers in the log, I'll still need to write the same parser. If Intrepid has a good design for Bard, the Bard will probably decide more about anyone's DPS than any other party member, and it's the Bard who will want to know that. The whole 'people will be mistreated for underperforming in damage' is not a Tracker problem, it's a design problem. I have no more interest in DPS check bosses than any other kind.
mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I believe Noaani has said this before, probably multiple times. If Trackers are causing toxicity in your game in a serious way, your game is designed wrong. But the design that will lead to toxicity is what you seem to want. Trackers will cause toxicity if DPS is essential to a fight. If people are failing fights because they aren't hitting DPS checks, they will become "toxic" towards people who they see are under performing on the meters. If you think meters should be necessary for competitive pve, then i'd assume you think pve needs to have these dps checks as part of its challenge. DPS checks are more of a gating mechanic than something that makes content difficult. There are plenty of none-dps related challenges that can be incorporated in pve to make it difficult.
Azherae wrote: » I believe Noaani has said this before, probably multiple times. If Trackers are causing toxicity in your game in a serious way, your game is designed wrong.
Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I believe Noaani has said this before, probably multiple times. If Trackers are causing toxicity in your game in a serious way, your game is designed wrong. But the design that will lead to toxicity is what you seem to want. Trackers will cause toxicity if DPS is essential to a fight. If people are failing fights because they aren't hitting DPS checks, they will become "toxic" towards people who they see are under performing on the meters. If you think meters should be necessary for competitive pve, then i'd assume you think pve needs to have these dps checks as part of its challenge. DPS checks are more of a gating mechanic than something that makes content difficult. There are plenty of none-dps related challenges that can be incorporated in pve to make it difficult. How is that what I seem to want? Trackers aren't primarily for DPS. If Intrepid decided to hide the damage numbers in the log, I'll still need to write the same parser. If Intrepid has a good design for Bard, the Bard will probably decide more about anyone's DPS than any other party member, and it's the Bard who will want to know that. The whole 'people will be mistreated for underperforming in damage' is not a Tracker problem, it's a design problem. I have no more interest in DPS check bosses than any other kind. What aspect of challenging PVE are they necessary for? I'm sorry but I'm really not going through the whole thing again. It's been explained multiple times, and I feel like I don't communicate with you very well as a generality. All I can do is hope that others understand that despite not 'meeting your challenge', I am not explicitly interested in Trackers for the DPS aspect. If you or they choose to take my 'silence' here as admission, then so it must be. My apologies. I don't mean to cause any distress. Nothing is being won or lost here. This is just a forum we talk about ideas. I'll back off. I thank you. Perhaps we can have a meaningful discussion in the other way, though. What do you consider a PvE challenge in a game like Ashes that does not have a component in which you need to check 'numbers vs time'? I can see how one could make a game where the question is moreso 'did you hit or not', 'did you defend or not', and 'did you activate the correct mechanic' than 'did you do enough damage' or 'did you mitigate enough damage'. Let's assume that a team member is counting on me to heal them and I keep getting frozen/stunned/knocked back when I try to, the Tracker tells them 'during this period no healing happened'. The Combat Log parser often tells them WHY no healing happened. The challenge for me there is 'avoid being CCed', right? The issue is that if you make a game like this, generally the response will be 'just bring more healers so that you don't have to worry about one being CCed'. I consider this less challenge, in the same way that fights which don't 'punish DPS players for just going all out' are less challenge. "Just bring more DPS so the enemy dies faster." The result is that the boss normally has to be 'tuned' so that you 'will not succeed if you have too few or too many' but this is still going to be a 'numbers' result. What do you see as a PvE challenge where you can't just throw more of X class at the problem to get around the mechanics preventing the effectiveness of any individual one? I'd say avoidance and puzzle mechanics are not a direct numbers vs time check. I think you need to force mechanics so they can't just dps through the challenge. Boss goes invulnerable until you do the mechanic. Also, have mechanics that require everyone in the area to do something so it's not just a small group doing it all. If necessary, I think capping the dps a boss can take would be a way to limit the effect of a zerg. If there is concern of people spamming healers, have mechanics that trigger based off classes in the area and make the healer one difficult to deal with. Also could have one that triggers based off healing being done in the area. Besides that, the rewards encourages you to bring as few people as possible since the more people you bring, the more people you have to split items with and the less valuable the time will be. If you have to bring another healer for the CC mechanic, then that's a healer you are now competing with for loot. So would this be 'limiting DPS per person', or Limiting DPS the boss takes at all? Because my first thought is the opposite. Bring more tanks. The moment you don't need the damage, that's what people do in my experience. They bring more tanks, they build more tanky. Since often, the utility of DPS, particularly on bosses, IS that they explicitly do more damage, taking that from them seems off? There's also the fact that normally (for what I consider good design), 'damage' is the reward you get for 'not having to spend a lot of time recovering from or dealing with mechanics' or for 'taking a risk of attacking when a certain mechanic is possible'. But honestly, it once again sounds like we just play different types of games. If Ashes manages what you're suggesting without it being a walkover for my group, I'll be glad. Been a while.
mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I believe Noaani has said this before, probably multiple times. If Trackers are causing toxicity in your game in a serious way, your game is designed wrong. But the design that will lead to toxicity is what you seem to want. Trackers will cause toxicity if DPS is essential to a fight. If people are failing fights because they aren't hitting DPS checks, they will become "toxic" towards people who they see are under performing on the meters. If you think meters should be necessary for competitive pve, then i'd assume you think pve needs to have these dps checks as part of its challenge. DPS checks are more of a gating mechanic than something that makes content difficult. There are plenty of none-dps related challenges that can be incorporated in pve to make it difficult. How is that what I seem to want? Trackers aren't primarily for DPS. If Intrepid decided to hide the damage numbers in the log, I'll still need to write the same parser. If Intrepid has a good design for Bard, the Bard will probably decide more about anyone's DPS than any other party member, and it's the Bard who will want to know that. The whole 'people will be mistreated for underperforming in damage' is not a Tracker problem, it's a design problem. I have no more interest in DPS check bosses than any other kind. What aspect of challenging PVE are they necessary for? I'm sorry but I'm really not going through the whole thing again. It's been explained multiple times, and I feel like I don't communicate with you very well as a generality. All I can do is hope that others understand that despite not 'meeting your challenge', I am not explicitly interested in Trackers for the DPS aspect. If you or they choose to take my 'silence' here as admission, then so it must be. My apologies. I don't mean to cause any distress. Nothing is being won or lost here. This is just a forum we talk about ideas. I'll back off. I thank you. Perhaps we can have a meaningful discussion in the other way, though. What do you consider a PvE challenge in a game like Ashes that does not have a component in which you need to check 'numbers vs time'? I can see how one could make a game where the question is moreso 'did you hit or not', 'did you defend or not', and 'did you activate the correct mechanic' than 'did you do enough damage' or 'did you mitigate enough damage'. Let's assume that a team member is counting on me to heal them and I keep getting frozen/stunned/knocked back when I try to, the Tracker tells them 'during this period no healing happened'. The Combat Log parser often tells them WHY no healing happened. The challenge for me there is 'avoid being CCed', right? The issue is that if you make a game like this, generally the response will be 'just bring more healers so that you don't have to worry about one being CCed'. I consider this less challenge, in the same way that fights which don't 'punish DPS players for just going all out' are less challenge. "Just bring more DPS so the enemy dies faster." The result is that the boss normally has to be 'tuned' so that you 'will not succeed if you have too few or too many' but this is still going to be a 'numbers' result. What do you see as a PvE challenge where you can't just throw more of X class at the problem to get around the mechanics preventing the effectiveness of any individual one? I'd say avoidance and puzzle mechanics are not a direct numbers vs time check. I think you need to force mechanics so they can't just dps through the challenge. Boss goes invulnerable until you do the mechanic. Also, have mechanics that require everyone in the area to do something so it's not just a small group doing it all. If necessary, I think capping the dps a boss can take would be a way to limit the effect of a zerg. If there is concern of people spamming healers, have mechanics that trigger based off classes in the area and make the healer one difficult to deal with. Also could have one that triggers based off healing being done in the area. Besides that, the rewards encourages you to bring as few people as possible since the more people you bring, the more people you have to split items with and the less valuable the time will be. If you have to bring another healer for the CC mechanic, then that's a healer you are now competing with for loot.
Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I believe Noaani has said this before, probably multiple times. If Trackers are causing toxicity in your game in a serious way, your game is designed wrong. But the design that will lead to toxicity is what you seem to want. Trackers will cause toxicity if DPS is essential to a fight. If people are failing fights because they aren't hitting DPS checks, they will become "toxic" towards people who they see are under performing on the meters. If you think meters should be necessary for competitive pve, then i'd assume you think pve needs to have these dps checks as part of its challenge. DPS checks are more of a gating mechanic than something that makes content difficult. There are plenty of none-dps related challenges that can be incorporated in pve to make it difficult. How is that what I seem to want? Trackers aren't primarily for DPS. If Intrepid decided to hide the damage numbers in the log, I'll still need to write the same parser. If Intrepid has a good design for Bard, the Bard will probably decide more about anyone's DPS than any other party member, and it's the Bard who will want to know that. The whole 'people will be mistreated for underperforming in damage' is not a Tracker problem, it's a design problem. I have no more interest in DPS check bosses than any other kind. What aspect of challenging PVE are they necessary for? I'm sorry but I'm really not going through the whole thing again. It's been explained multiple times, and I feel like I don't communicate with you very well as a generality. All I can do is hope that others understand that despite not 'meeting your challenge', I am not explicitly interested in Trackers for the DPS aspect. If you or they choose to take my 'silence' here as admission, then so it must be. My apologies. I don't mean to cause any distress. Nothing is being won or lost here. This is just a forum we talk about ideas. I'll back off. I thank you. Perhaps we can have a meaningful discussion in the other way, though. What do you consider a PvE challenge in a game like Ashes that does not have a component in which you need to check 'numbers vs time'? I can see how one could make a game where the question is moreso 'did you hit or not', 'did you defend or not', and 'did you activate the correct mechanic' than 'did you do enough damage' or 'did you mitigate enough damage'. Let's assume that a team member is counting on me to heal them and I keep getting frozen/stunned/knocked back when I try to, the Tracker tells them 'during this period no healing happened'. The Combat Log parser often tells them WHY no healing happened. The challenge for me there is 'avoid being CCed', right? The issue is that if you make a game like this, generally the response will be 'just bring more healers so that you don't have to worry about one being CCed'. I consider this less challenge, in the same way that fights which don't 'punish DPS players for just going all out' are less challenge. "Just bring more DPS so the enemy dies faster." The result is that the boss normally has to be 'tuned' so that you 'will not succeed if you have too few or too many' but this is still going to be a 'numbers' result. What do you see as a PvE challenge where you can't just throw more of X class at the problem to get around the mechanics preventing the effectiveness of any individual one?
mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I believe Noaani has said this before, probably multiple times. If Trackers are causing toxicity in your game in a serious way, your game is designed wrong. But the design that will lead to toxicity is what you seem to want. Trackers will cause toxicity if DPS is essential to a fight. If people are failing fights because they aren't hitting DPS checks, they will become "toxic" towards people who they see are under performing on the meters. If you think meters should be necessary for competitive pve, then i'd assume you think pve needs to have these dps checks as part of its challenge. DPS checks are more of a gating mechanic than something that makes content difficult. There are plenty of none-dps related challenges that can be incorporated in pve to make it difficult. How is that what I seem to want? Trackers aren't primarily for DPS. If Intrepid decided to hide the damage numbers in the log, I'll still need to write the same parser. If Intrepid has a good design for Bard, the Bard will probably decide more about anyone's DPS than any other party member, and it's the Bard who will want to know that. The whole 'people will be mistreated for underperforming in damage' is not a Tracker problem, it's a design problem. I have no more interest in DPS check bosses than any other kind. What aspect of challenging PVE are they necessary for? I'm sorry but I'm really not going through the whole thing again. It's been explained multiple times, and I feel like I don't communicate with you very well as a generality. All I can do is hope that others understand that despite not 'meeting your challenge', I am not explicitly interested in Trackers for the DPS aspect. If you or they choose to take my 'silence' here as admission, then so it must be. My apologies. I don't mean to cause any distress. Nothing is being won or lost here. This is just a forum we talk about ideas. I'll back off.
Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I believe Noaani has said this before, probably multiple times. If Trackers are causing toxicity in your game in a serious way, your game is designed wrong. But the design that will lead to toxicity is what you seem to want. Trackers will cause toxicity if DPS is essential to a fight. If people are failing fights because they aren't hitting DPS checks, they will become "toxic" towards people who they see are under performing on the meters. If you think meters should be necessary for competitive pve, then i'd assume you think pve needs to have these dps checks as part of its challenge. DPS checks are more of a gating mechanic than something that makes content difficult. There are plenty of none-dps related challenges that can be incorporated in pve to make it difficult. How is that what I seem to want? Trackers aren't primarily for DPS. If Intrepid decided to hide the damage numbers in the log, I'll still need to write the same parser. If Intrepid has a good design for Bard, the Bard will probably decide more about anyone's DPS than any other party member, and it's the Bard who will want to know that. The whole 'people will be mistreated for underperforming in damage' is not a Tracker problem, it's a design problem. I have no more interest in DPS check bosses than any other kind. What aspect of challenging PVE are they necessary for? I'm sorry but I'm really not going through the whole thing again. It's been explained multiple times, and I feel like I don't communicate with you very well as a generality. All I can do is hope that others understand that despite not 'meeting your challenge', I am not explicitly interested in Trackers for the DPS aspect. If you or they choose to take my 'silence' here as admission, then so it must be.
Dygz wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Nah, I'm just too far on the other side of the spectrum. I don't see invisible mechanics as fun, nor invisible puzzles as interesting. RPGs are intended to be focused on roleplay; not rollplay. Combat trackers are all about focusing on rollplay.
mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I believe Noaani has said this before, probably multiple times. If Trackers are causing toxicity in your game in a serious way, your game is designed wrong. But the design that will lead to toxicity is what you seem to want. Trackers will cause toxicity if DPS is essential to a fight. If people are failing fights because they aren't hitting DPS checks, they will become "toxic" towards people who they see are under performing on the meters. If you think meters should be necessary for competitive pve, then i'd assume you think pve needs to have these dps checks as part of its challenge. DPS checks are more of a gating mechanic than something that makes content difficult. There are plenty of none-dps related challenges that can be incorporated in pve to make it difficult. How is that what I seem to want? Trackers aren't primarily for DPS. If Intrepid decided to hide the damage numbers in the log, I'll still need to write the same parser. If Intrepid has a good design for Bard, the Bard will probably decide more about anyone's DPS than any other party member, and it's the Bard who will want to know that. The whole 'people will be mistreated for underperforming in damage' is not a Tracker problem, it's a design problem. I have no more interest in DPS check bosses than any other kind. What aspect of challenging PVE are they necessary for? I'm sorry but I'm really not going through the whole thing again. It's been explained multiple times, and I feel like I don't communicate with you very well as a generality. All I can do is hope that others understand that despite not 'meeting your challenge', I am not explicitly interested in Trackers for the DPS aspect. If you or they choose to take my 'silence' here as admission, then so it must be. My apologies. I don't mean to cause any distress. Nothing is being won or lost here. This is just a forum we talk about ideas. I'll back off. I thank you. Perhaps we can have a meaningful discussion in the other way, though. What do you consider a PvE challenge in a game like Ashes that does not have a component in which you need to check 'numbers vs time'? I can see how one could make a game where the question is moreso 'did you hit or not', 'did you defend or not', and 'did you activate the correct mechanic' than 'did you do enough damage' or 'did you mitigate enough damage'. Let's assume that a team member is counting on me to heal them and I keep getting frozen/stunned/knocked back when I try to, the Tracker tells them 'during this period no healing happened'. The Combat Log parser often tells them WHY no healing happened. The challenge for me there is 'avoid being CCed', right? The issue is that if you make a game like this, generally the response will be 'just bring more healers so that you don't have to worry about one being CCed'. I consider this less challenge, in the same way that fights which don't 'punish DPS players for just going all out' are less challenge. "Just bring more DPS so the enemy dies faster." The result is that the boss normally has to be 'tuned' so that you 'will not succeed if you have too few or too many' but this is still going to be a 'numbers' result. What do you see as a PvE challenge where you can't just throw more of X class at the problem to get around the mechanics preventing the effectiveness of any individual one? I'd say avoidance and puzzle mechanics are not a direct numbers vs time check. I think you need to force mechanics so they can't just dps through the challenge. Boss goes invulnerable until you do the mechanic. Also, have mechanics that require everyone in the area to do something so it's not just a small group doing it all. If necessary, I think capping the dps a boss can take would be a way to limit the effect of a zerg. If there is concern of people spamming healers, have mechanics that trigger based off classes in the area and make the healer one difficult to deal with. Also could have one that triggers based off healing being done in the area. Besides that, the rewards encourages you to bring as few people as possible since the more people you bring, the more people you have to split items with and the less valuable the time will be. If you have to bring another healer for the CC mechanic, then that's a healer you are now competing with for loot. So would this be 'limiting DPS per person', or Limiting DPS the boss takes at all? Because my first thought is the opposite. Bring more tanks. The moment you don't need the damage, that's what people do in my experience. They bring more tanks, they build more tanky. Since often, the utility of DPS, particularly on bosses, IS that they explicitly do more damage, taking that from them seems off? There's also the fact that normally (for what I consider good design), 'damage' is the reward you get for 'not having to spend a lot of time recovering from or dealing with mechanics' or for 'taking a risk of attacking when a certain mechanic is possible'. But honestly, it once again sounds like we just play different types of games. If Ashes manages what you're suggesting without it being a walkover for my group, I'll be glad. Been a while. I was thinking of limiting the damage the boss the takes so it's capped at x damage a second. Spamming tanks could be a safer option but you are still dividing loot amongst everyone. The fewer people you need to bring, the more profitable the run will be so taking tanks could be a group trading profit for safety. If spamming tanks is seen as a problem, similar to what i said about healers, you could have mechanics/attacks that trigger based off archetypes in the area. The more tanks in the area, the frequency of powerful attacks goes up.
Tragnar wrote: » Dygz wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Nah, I'm just too far on the other side of the spectrum. I don't see invisible mechanics as fun, nor invisible puzzles as interesting. RPGs are intended to be focused on roleplay; not rollplay. Combat trackers are all about focusing on rollplay. look at every popular game that is thriving - every single one puts gameplay above roleplay that doesn't mean you cant have roleplay, just not at the expense of gameplay if some important game mechanics or abilities are only readable in certain situations only from a combat log then not having an approachable way to filter combat log (in other words a "combat tracker") is hurting gameplay
Tragnar wrote: » look at every popular game that is thriving - every single one puts gameplay above roleplay that doesn't mean you cant have roleplay, just not at the expense of gameplay if some important game mechanics or abilities are only readable in certain situations only from a combat log then not having an approachable way to filter combat log (in other words a "combat tracker") is hurting gameplay
Tragnar wrote: » if some important game mechanics or abilities are only readable in certain situations only from a combat log
MrPockets wrote: » I hope this helps you understand where the other side is coming from.
mcstackerson wrote: » I don't think trackers should be how you figure out mechanics. You should have to figure out these mechanics from the hints they give you in game.
