DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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Songcaller

The devs merged all the dps meter threads into this one.

Mag7spy

Tragnar wrote: »

you take the forum community - exaggerate the ratio towards your personal beliefs and present that as proportionate representation of the people that are going to tryout ashes when it comes out

this whole thread is the same thing as setting up a stand in a park with a written title "come write down if you think global warming is real"

do you really think the listed opinions are going to be proportional towards the true beliefs of the whole populace? Only people that have strong feelings towards their opinion on global warming are going to write something down

This is what you don't understand so ill explain it again. Forums is like less than 1% of player base it normally has the most dedicated people commenting on it. This would be the most bias place to support DPS meters if that was the case and it falls short of being anywhere near supported except for a small group on this forum.

If we are talking about all the people off the forums they would not be supporting DPS meters or would not know about it or care about it. Plenty would think people are cheating to know more information as well. Off the forum is where things would be supported against trackers even more so.

As i said i don't think it will be proportional, People do not want trackers, a normal person isn't wanting or using, or knowing of tracker either.

GrandSerpent

Mag7spy wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

you take the forum community - exaggerate the ratio towards your personal beliefs and present that as proportionate representation of the people that are going to tryout ashes when it comes out

this whole thread is the same thing as setting up a stand in a park with a written title "come write down if you think global warming is real"

do you really think the listed opinions are going to be proportional towards the true beliefs of the whole populace? Only people that have strong feelings towards their opinion on global warming are going to write something down

This is what you don't understand so ill explain it again. Forums is like less than 1% of player base it normally has the most dedicated people commenting on it. This would be the most bias place to support DPS meters if that was the case and it falls short of being anywhere near supported except for a small group on this forum.

If we are talking about all the people off the forums they would not be supporting DPS meters or would not know about it or care about it. Plenty would think people are cheating to know more information as well. Off the forum is where things would be supported against trackers even more so.

As i said i don't think it will be proportional, People do not want trackers, a normal person isn't wanting or using, or knowing of tracker either.

So your argument is really just that the people on your side are the ones who are ignorant of the situation and don't want to learn about it?

Mag7spy

GrandSerpent wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

you take the forum community - exaggerate the ratio towards your personal beliefs and present that as proportionate representation of the people that are going to tryout ashes when it comes out

this whole thread is the same thing as setting up a stand in a park with a written title "come write down if you think global warming is real"

do you really think the listed opinions are going to be proportional towards the true beliefs of the whole populace? Only people that have strong feelings towards their opinion on global warming are going to write something down

This is what you don't understand so ill explain it again. Forums is like less than 1% of player base it normally has the most dedicated people commenting on it. This would be the most bias place to support DPS meters if that was the case and it falls short of being anywhere near supported except for a small group on this forum.

If we are talking about all the people off the forums they would not be supporting DPS meters or would not know about it or care about it. Plenty would think people are cheating to know more information as well. Off the forum is where things would be supported against trackers even more so.

As i said i don't think it will be proportional, People do not want trackers, a normal person isn't wanting or using, or knowing of tracker either.

So your argument is really just that the people on your side are the ones who are ignorant of the situation and don't want to learn about it?

People have said plenty of arguments within this thread as a whole, I'm talking about the conscious of the general majority. If I'm talking about groups It be a post for each one to explain though that is already done in this thread.

Ignorant are the ones that don't care what people think and want to force meters even if it means breaking tos btw.

Songcaller

It is not our remit to maintain the no tracker stance, its the onus of those who want trackers to persuade IS to allow trackers. If you just stopped your arguments against trackers you would find that the situation just dies because no counter arguments can be put forth (or essays as I like to call the posts). Thus, if you want the notion to keep trackers out of ashes, simply let the status quo stand.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

It is not our remit to maintain the no tracker stance, its the onus of those who want trackers to persuade IS to allow trackers.

This isnt quite true.

Those who want trackers will have them. What we (or, at least, I) are doing, is trying to make the game better by making trackers available to all who want to use them, rather than just those of us "in the know". In doing this, it would also mean those not wanting trackers would have confidence that others they group with wont be tracking their combat - while with the status quo, this is not something that can ever be assumed.

No one has yet painted a realistic picture of how the game would actually be worse if Intrepid implemented guild based trackers - not even Intrepid. The arguments have all been about combat trackers vs no combat trackers, but that ship sailed long ago.

The argument about it being against the ToS is ridiculous - as if I wanted to, I can ask a friend to use the tracker on a computer that I dont even have access to if I want. As such, literally nothing at all about the tracker functioning (neither the user nor the computer) has had anything at all to do with Intrepid.

I'd like to see someone argue that a tracker can be against the ToS when the user of that tracker hasn't even agreed to a ToS with Intrepid.

Mag7spy

Trackers (cheating) don't make the game better, its made to make everything easier so you can run through content faster and get more detail than you should know as a player with almost 0 effort. Also further grows toxicity.

Tragnar

Mag7spy wrote: »

Trackers (cheating) don't make the game better, its made to make everything easier so you can run through content faster and get more detail than you should know as a player with almost 0 effort. Also further grows toxicity.

What about meta gaming guides on forums, youtube, guide sites? Are you going to take them down? They do everything you accuse trackers "making easier" but on a massive scale basically without any barrier of entry, because you don't need to understand it - just follow the guide step by step

Dygz

People will know that META gaming guides won't be very helpful in Ashes - especially because Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game.
Won't stop some people from obsessing over pursuit of the META.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

People will know that META gaming guides won't be very helpful in Ashes - especially because Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game.
Won't stop some people from obsessing over pursuit of the META.

META won't, but meta will.

A games meta (as opposed to META) will account for likely variation.

Tragnar

@Dygz I beg to differ - games with big variation rely even MORE on meta guides to use the most versatile builds for the most amount of situations

basically more build options equals more chances to create useless build

Mag7spy

Tragnar wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Trackers (cheating) don't make the game better, its made to make everything easier so you can run through content faster and get more detail than you should know as a player with almost 0 effort. Also further grows toxicity.

What about meta gaming guides on forums, youtube, guide sites? Are you going to take them down? They do everything you accuse trackers "making easier" but on a massive scale basically without any barrier of entry, because you don't need to understand it - just follow the guide step by step

Comparing external programs and literarily tell you exactly what is going on (number and state wise precisely) and a guide that is written by someone else after figuring things out are two different things. Nice false comparison.

Mag7spy

Now if you want to compare using Map hacks in Warcraft 3 online you can compare that to the tracker.

Tragnar

Mag7spy wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Trackers (cheating) don't make the game better, its made to make everything easier so you can run through content faster and get more detail than you should know as a player with almost 0 effort. Also further grows toxicity.

What about meta gaming guides on forums, youtube, guide sites? Are you going to take them down? They do everything you accuse trackers "making easier" but on a massive scale basically without any barrier of entry, because you don't need to understand it - just follow the guide step by step

Comparing external programs and literarily tell you exactly what is going on (number and state wise precisely) and a guide that is written by someone else after figuring things out are two different things. Nice false comparison.

Is that how you think it is? xD

- you can test with tracker when you become uncritable OR you just read from guide the precise value
- you can test with tracker your stat values OR you just read it from a guide
- you can trial test with tracker how much of the node specific gear you need OR you just read it from a table in a guide how much every node requires
- you can try to figure out how to kill the boss (where tracker doesnt help, because all it does is show you who isn't doing their job - interupters not interrupting, stunners not stunning, dispellers not dispelling etc) OR you just follow a kill guide

however it still baffles me how obfuscation of information is beneficial to the crowd that doesnt like iron man challenges, but I guess I'll never get an answer to that here xD

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

@Dygz I beg to differ - games with big variation rely even MORE on meta guides to use the most versatile builds for the most amount of situations

basically more build options equals more chances to create useless build

Not in Ashes, because your build and how efficient you are is going to be dependent on the various choices each individual in your group has made and how well you synergize with the members of your group.
You don’t really create “useless” builds. You could have a great build and not know how to synergize with your group.

Also…Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game, even raid session to raid session, so…whatever guide there might be is unlikely to help others much.

Dygz

Why test in a tracker whether you are uncritable? You can just put points in Passive Skills for that.

Tragnar

idk if that exactly is only achievable through passive skills

the point was to point towards an item stat and its breakpoint value

Aerlana

@Mag7spy

You are like a fanatic, that try to claim truths without even knowing what reality is...
you do lot of claims but never show proof of your claims... When people claims thing, with proof, you just explain why you consider it not relevant...

But you are just unable to give yourself any kind of proof to support your own claims "most people" what are most, what kind of people, etc etc.

Myself don't try to claim "everyone wants combat tracker" neither "no one wants" or "makority wants/don't wants" because i have no factual strict proof about the whole current community (which is far in number but also in the type of people we will have after the game is released... )

Now, lets get straight to your problem with combat tracker :

You spoke about gatekeeping... But the idea of nooani would generates gatekeeping only for a really few people... and in a way that will happens with or without it :
With combat tracker limited to guilds which decide to take it, and only able to show datas from guild members, this won't be able to see anyone else... But guilds mostly do high end content with... guild member.
The gatekeep so, will comes because some people who want to join the guild doesn't meet the requirements to become member (in consideration of guild officers / leader) and will be rejected.

So you fear a gatekeep ? really ? Does that mean you want to join any guild without to have to prove you fit in the guild ? If yes, you are totally on the toxic side... Yes, people that don't care their own efficiency can be toxic, losing the time of 39 other people in the raid.

Toxicity in video games doesn't follow a strict rule... If you join a group of players and doesn't fit their mentality, objectivs, you will be toxic, even if you are the nicer guy that walked the Earth.

You defend guide, guide that generates a lot of gatekeeping... because lot of people refuses the other because they didnt follow those guides... Those are the only time i was refused/kick in MMORPG : when people did saw my build didnt fit any of the guide they judge to be "the way to play"... I never was under-efficient for any content i joined in PU... while i rarely follow guides. I was denied not because i am a bad player, but because i was not playing how players expected me to play...

and i won't speak about all parties with "read guides / watch video or don't join" ... those are also kind of gatekeeping. It doesn't seems to be a problem for you right ?

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

idk if that exactly is only achievable through passive skills

the point was to point towards an item stat and its breakpoint value

The point is: the breakpoint value should be irrelevant to success.

Mag7spy

Tragnar wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Trackers (cheating) don't make the game better, its made to make everything easier so you can run through content faster and get more detail than you should know as a player with almost 0 effort. Also further grows toxicity.

What about meta gaming guides on forums, youtube, guide sites? Are you going to take them down? They do everything you accuse trackers "making easier" but on a massive scale basically without any barrier of entry, because you don't need to understand it - just follow the guide step by step

Comparing external programs and literarily tell you exactly what is going on (number and state wise precisely) and a guide that is written by someone else after figuring things out are two different things. Nice false comparison.

Is that how you think it is? xD

- you can test with tracker when you become uncritable OR you just read from guide the precise value
- you can test with tracker your stat values OR you just read it from a guide
- you can trial test with tracker how much of the node specific gear you need OR you just read it from a table in a guide how much every node requires
- you can try to figure out how to kill the boss (where tracker doesnt help, because all it does is show you who isn't doing their job - interupters not interrupting, stunners not stunning, dispellers not dispelling etc) OR you just follow a kill guide

however it still baffles me how obfuscation of information is beneficial to the crowd that doesnt like iron man challenges, but I guess I'll never get an answer to that here xD

Love the disingenuous takes you make, doesn't surprise me from someone that is for trackers as you need to reach in your pocket to find out and make extremely bad comparisons.

Essentially is what you are saying is people being SOCIAL on a mmo and sharing things with each other is the same as loading up a program that tracks everything and tells you all details that is not normal for a player at a extremely fast rate.

This is what happens when you are this bias and you don't care what people want and simply want to have what you want. There are no guides if people don't make them, trackers give you information without guides stop trying to compare them whatever you think is is a win is not.

You are literarily trying to compare a form of extra external information to people talking and working together to overcome challenges as meant to be in a social game.

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