DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

sternzy wrote: »

I get what you're saying but as long as its a option that is relayed and requires consent on an individual basis its already good enough as a barrier to exclusion in my books. The point being here is that if the guild leaders suddenly try to be sneaky or they turn into something else over time, I like that they would be required to request permission to see that information because it would even out the individuals rights and the groups. Tbh this wasnt my idea, it was just me trying to accomodate for an additional option.

Again, the simple requirement of needing to provide consent each time means this suggestion would not meet the basic functional requirement of an in game combat tracker - assuming you are assuming the basic function of an in game combat tracker is to prevent (or greatly lower) the need for third party trackers.

I am all for you being able to play the game without any contact with combat trackers at all - even ones that you never find out about.

My goal in this thread is to point out that there is only one possible way for that to happen, and that is to provide top end raiders with a combat tracker that they will want to use over a third party one. That really is all it will take, but it is also the only possible way for it to happen.

If top end raiders have that tool, everyone else will just follow our lead and use it.

I should maybe also point out that I wouldn't expect a perk choice like this to be able to be redone. To me, this should be designed as a fundamental aspect of the guilds identity, and should a guild want to change that identity, they should - in my opinion - start over.

This means that the notion of a guild leader changing over time and switching to the combat tracker perk simply isn't possible.

CaptnChuck

Despite me wanting something like a training dummy or a training yard in this game, having them will only accelerate meta gaming, just like dps meters would. Meta gaming has been ruining games for a while, so it might be better to avoid dps meters and the like, entirely.

Noaani

@SorianLore

SorianLore wrote: »

You don’t have to boot the person to make it a toxic environment...

In business, the companies that micromanage fail, companies that work as a team, trust, and empower their people succeed. Groups of players is no different (and I’ve lead both).

That L2 tracker was likely against the ToS as I don’t recall it being allowed by NCSoft. I.e. folks could get banned if caught.

Just assume "booting someone" is shorthand for all forms of toxic behavior, as they all exist in the same capacity - one player choses to be toxic towards another for reasons that are essentially abstract (and more often than not, abstract reasons that don't originate from the game).

It is absolutely true that in business, groups that trust their team are more successul than those that don't. Thing is, teams with access to large amounts of relevant objective data do better than teams that don't.

The best teams are those that work well together, trust each other, but have access to objective data as well.

I see no reason why objective data has to have any direct or indirect impact on trust between people.

While it may technically be possible that players would get banned if they were known to use that specific tracker, NCsoft can't detect it at all, and there are no players that have reported being banned from using it.

The fact is though, that this tracker exists points out that the notion of no tracker in Ashes is simply not a potential reality. The only possible outcomes are third party tracker, or first party tracker.

Intrepid can either close their eyes and ignore the fact that several of these will exist, or they can take steps to ensure Ashes has the best possible outcome for the most possible people in regartds to trackers.

Right now, they seem to be simply closing their eyes and ignoring the fact that they will exist and a very large percentage of players will use them. I think this is the worst possible thing for this game in regards to trackers.

Foogle

Personally can't agree more with Intrepid to not have meters or addons, I personally feel they ruin the game experience in my opinion. Unfortunately even if it was like.. opt in for the player only to see their own meter this could still lead to toxicity by that person saying stuff like " Look how much damage i'm doing, what are you doing? " etcetc.

I hope they continue as they are

Noaani

Foogle wrote: »

Personally can't agree more with Intrepid to not have meters or addons, I personally feel they ruin the game experience in my opinion. Unfortunately even if it was like.. opt in for the player only to see their own meter this could still lead to toxicity by that person saying stuff like " Look how much damage i'm doing, what are you doing? " etcetc.

I hope they continue as they are

A player that is doing that is going to cause toxicity regardless of if a meter is present or not.

They wil lfind something - whether it is a players gear, class, race, or a combination of them all. It may even just be something the player does in a dungeon.

Adding a combat tracker is not going to increase the frequency in which players are goint to want to engage in that kind of behavior, nor will it make it any more likely to happen when they do want to engage in it.

It is also worth pointing out that there will still be combat trackers in Ashes, they will just be third party ones like there are in every other game (except WoW, Blizzard take this kind of thing to a whole new level).

Noaani

@cleansingtotem

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Grimfaldra wrote: »

"cleansingtotem wrote: »

Wow has the most hardcore and challenging raiding to this day. So not sure what your talking about.

I really usually do not do that. But after I stopped laughing so hard i snorted coffee all over my keyboard, i got flashbacks from the Innoruuk/Uqua raids I was on.

everquest trash is nothing compared to mythic raids from the last few expansions. I get you could not hack it on LFR but at last be honest.

I can't really speak for raids in the original EQ, but I can speak to the first decade or so of top end raiding in EQ2 in relation to the first few years as well as the last 4 or 5 years of mythical raiding in WoW.

What I will say is that the top three encounters from that are all from EQ2 - and this is not even a close call.

WoW raiding now is better than it was at launch - the content at launch could best be described as average quality and difficulty single group content that was tuned to 40 players rather than 5.

WoW raids now are ok in comparison to EQ2 raids while I was playing that game - but they are not as interesting, nor as hard.

Perhaps a good way of illustrating the point would be to imagine a three phase WoW raid, where the encounter is fairly different for each of thsoe three phases. WoW breaks that down in to easily digestable and understandable "acts" for players. The content is - if nothing else - very well curated.

EQ2 just says "fuck you" to the players, and rather than having phases, it just throws all of those mechanics at you at the same time.

Effluvikoff

Noaani remember that time I argued with you and you didn't respond with a good response to my post. I think I won honestly.

Noaani

@Quiltsharts

Quiltsharts wrote: »

Noaani remember that time I argued with you and you didn't respond with a good response to my post. I think I won honestly.

Nope, I don't.

Quote yourself, and if I have time I'll reply. Be sure to @ me though.

Effluvikoff

I'm not searching your posts, you search mine. I have way less

Fisher

Couple things I'd like to say in response to some of the points in this thread:

1. If there is a personal meter, there will be a user-made tool to gather and compare the personal meters of everyone on the team. If you do not want people's performances to be compared, you cannot measure their performance in any way.
2. If the leader is the only one who can view the meters, what's stopping him from just sharing that information with the rest of the team? What's to stop an "elitist" from simply always assuming the leadership role? Also, what's to stop them from lying about what the meters say to push someone they don't like out with false justifiable reason?
3. DPS meters are not elitist. People are. If you don't want to play with people who ignorantly look at only the DPS meters, then don't, but totally disabling meters because you're worried about elitism is patently absurd. It won't remove elitism, it will simply shift its attention elsewhere. Meters are a tool; nothing more. Please allow those of us who know how to -- and want to -- use them do so.

If you don't want to use meters, don't. Please don't make it more difficult for those of us who enjoy optimizing our characters' performances just because you personally aren't interested.

NelsonRebel

Fisher wrote: »

Couple things I'd like to say in response to some of the points in this thread:

1. If there is a personal meter, there will be a user-made tool to gather and compare the personal meters of everyone on the team. If you do not want people's performances to be compared, you cannot measure their performance in any way.
2. If the leader is the only one who can view the meters, what's stopping him from just sharing that information with the rest of the team? What's to stop an "elitist" from simply always assuming the leadership role? Also, what's to stop them from lying about what the meters say to push someone they don't like out with false justifiable reason?
3. DPS meters are not elitist. People are. If you don't want to play with people who ignorantly look at only the DPS meters, then don't, but totally disabling meters because you're worried about elitism is patently absurd. It won't remove elitism, it will simply shift its attention elsewhere. Meters are a tool; nothing more. Please allow those of us who know how to -- and want to -- use them do so.

If you don't want to use meters, don't. Please don't make it more difficult for those of us who enjoy optimizing our characters' performances just because you personally aren't interested.

For point 1&2 combined theres no reason to not have meters personal and private without player consent.

If I decide to share it with others thats my choice who I wish/trust to share it with

I may not share it with anyone at all and simply use it for my own personal desire to measure skill/morph/ability/item damage

There is absolutely zero reason to not allow the meter to be private. If guild leader demands it as a requirement at least I know upfront without them doing something sneaky later

For 3 yes you're right. The point is to make it as difficult and uninviting to be elitist as possible. That goes hand in hand with ensuring its up to the individual to share it or not.

Beekeeper

The argument that no inbuilt DPS meters will lead to 3rd party meters is completely besides the point. Just because cheaters exist doesn't mean we should make the game as cheat-friendly as possible.

Fisher wrote: »

If you don't want to use meters, don't. Please don't make it more difficult for those of us who enjoy optimizing our characters' performances just because you personally aren't interested.

Most people don't CHOOSE not to optimize. When you ask someone "do you want to use this option, or the good option?" they're almost always going to pick the "good" option, because nobody wants to start out lagging behind others, especially casual players. "Do you want to bumble around and waste your time or do you want ideal success every time" is not a question. Tools provided for optimization are going to be used by the vast majority of people unless there's some kind of stigma attached (like getting banned for 3rd party software use).

Also, excuse me? "Don't make it more difficult for us to optimize" It should be near IMPOSSIBLE to optimize through numbers, you munchkin.

Noaani

@Quiltsharts

Quiltsharts wrote: »

I'm not searching your posts, you search mine. I have way less

Search your own posts.

You know what you want a reply to, I don't.

Dygz

noanni: Always only ONE possible way.
🙄

Taten

I prefer and like the "No addons" edge they have currently.

DPS meters force and focus people into META specs and what not so they top meters...

That wont be the case with this game there will be so much variety with classes/dmg/abilities between the 64 different classes that making DPS meters would really just detract from the whole experience. it would completely wipe classes off the map because they arent as powerful as one of the other arch-type picks and remove the fantasy aspect from the whole.... Choosing class based on DPS alone VS any type of fantasy preference towards what you're playing. Dont dig it.... I want to see a healthy mix of all the classes and if we get DPS meters it will narrow down what people choose to 1 or 2 different arch-types per main class.

Back in AC and old games u didnt have dps meters to look at and preen yourself on..... No parsing. No meta. No speedrunning..... No Bull excretions that come from implementing those types of things.....

Peppin

I think no dps meter would be a mistake.
A few points:
*How would you know what classes are OP or bad if there's no meter to compare it to? Even intrepid could use this info to balance classes. For instance in raids if Fighter classes are doing 30% more dmg than summoner classes on average, that obviously would mean that fighters would need a nerf or summoners would need a buff. You could really only make guesses on how well you're doing compared to others.

*How would you know someone is afk in your 40 man raid or just auto attacking/bad healing (healing meter)? I understand people will have reputations of being good or bad, but on a large scale like 40 people you're not going to know everyone well.

*I think to meet half way is to have a very simple built in dps/healing meter that only shows your % to a fight, no other details explaining your main dmg sources (spells used, dps numbers).

Noaani

Beekeeper wrote: »

The argument that no inbuilt DPS meters will lead to 3rd party meters is completely besides the point. Just because cheaters exist doesn't mean we should make the game as cheat-friendly as possible.

This is blatantly not true.

First, you are assuming Intrepid will consider combat trackers cheating. This isn't confirmed.

Second, when designing a product, you should have one eye on how you want people to use it, and one eye on how people will actually use it.

Good design requires these two things to be as close together as possible. If there is a thing you know people will do in regards to your product, you have to take that in to consideration.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

noanni: Always only ONE possible way.
🙄

The only time there is only one way is when there are a lot of requirements that eliminate ways that would otherwise be acceptable.

There is, however, often only one best way to do a thing, and that is what I am arguing for.

To be clear, I didn't come up with what I consider the best way, it was a collective that a number of people (including you) had input in to.

It is also not the way I would like to see it done - I am perfectly happy using third party combat trackers and tracking everyone's combat as I see fit - which is the current status quo.

What I am arguing for is what is the best way for all players and perspectives, as I believe that is the best thing to do for the game.

Effluvikoff

Okay. I want a 2 PAGE writeup on why a DPS meter doesn't completely break down discovery, wonder and immersion on a community level, and why on a whole a DPS meter isn't completely relative to the video game around it.

Off you go. P.S This is your second try at this.

Noaani

@Quiltsharts

Quiltsharts wrote: »

Okay. I want a 2 PAGE writeup on why a DPS meter doesn't completely break down discovery, wonder and immersion on a community level, and why on a whole a DPS meter isn't completely relative to the video game around it.

Off you go. P.S This is your second try at this.

Because people still need to come up with ideas, all a combat tracker does is tell you how good the idea you had is.

I don't see how it *could* break down discovery or wonder let alone feel the need to explain why it wouldn't.

Forums, websites, chat and discord do far more to break down discovery on an individual player level than anything.

As for immersion, this is why the suggestion that has been put forth to intrepid - a guild based combat tracker - includes the notion of data only being sent to players out of combat, on request.

I'm not keen on real time tracking, or additional UI elements during combat. Fortunately, in order to perform a combat trackers basic functionality, real time isn't needed.

And honestly, if you don't @ someone, don't assume they have read every post in a thread like this.

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