Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
At absolute best, it is PvE with PvP thrown in. There will be players coming to control the bosses (that is the point of these events), but there will also be rivals from other nodes coming to attack players trying to defend their node, in an effort to allow the monster coin event to do more damage.
Since we are talking about times when PvE and PvP are seperate, this is simply not one of them.
Yes its not completely separate. Still pve event though. This game is not about separating content Nd players but about uniting everything.
Basically, what I am saying is that the notion presented that PvX means PvE and PvP together, all the time is completely off the mark. Intrepid have already given us examples of when each will exist without the other, so attempting to argue that they need to always be together in order for the game to be PvX is completely untrue.
Noone is saying there wont be cases where only one or other only happens. But generally speaking, when you go out to kill some mobs, its not like you have to fight off people every 2 minutes, unless you're being an asshole to everyone around. in any case, its off the topic now, as topic is DPS meters.
I already stated, that I would be against them and why. No need to continue this discussion unless valid points are presented, apart for making it easier to make new builds or that they will exist any way. If it makes it easier i don't want it.
So I take it you are all for combat trackers if they only work in PvE combat.
No, because as I stated before, I'm against making things easier. So it will make PVE combat, and making builds for PVE combat easier, so I'm against that. Making build is part of the RPG fun.
If so then what is the difficulty? The only thing that comes to my mind is that you don't have data on what the build does in practice and thus you only go from your theorycraft assumptions - and let me tell you all people get it wrong. That is why people use correction tools that allow them to identify weak points - for mmo it is a meter
― Plato
It will mean there are more options for builds in combat for each class, which means when you come up to a given class, you won't automatically know what abilities they will have, nor what augments those abilities will have.
As such, it makes PvP harder/more interesting.
Any way that a combat tracker makes PvE content easier can be accounted for in developing the content. This is an arguement we had about 45 pages back - I'll attempt to give you the CliffsNotes version of that discussion.
Basically, it is possible to create a PvE encounter that is literally impossible to kill (I have seen a few that were specifically designed to be impossible to kill).
Since it is possible to do this, it is possible to make a PvE encounter at literally any difficulty the developers desire, from one shot kills, up to literally unable to be killed.
Developers decide how hard they want an encounter to be very early on in the development process, it is actually usually the very first decision made (before the location of the encounter, the name of the encounter and the race of the encounter, they will know the intended difficulty).
So, in order to compensate for combat trackers, all developers need to do is ever so slightly increase the difficulty of the encounter - which as above they will always have plenty of room to do.
With that, you still have content that is exactly as hard as the developers intended it to be, with combat trackers. As such, the idea that a combat tracker makes content easier is bunk.
I find it frankly insulting that people think Meters are the -be all- of gamer conflict when we all know drama comes from false information which is spread more easily if there are no metrics in place. This is a bad move, to not have and blame meters for problems that are going to happen anyway. People will figure out how what classes/specs are weak and it is up to the game designers to add those niche moves/abilities that will help in only certain situations meant to be thought about.
Careful, others will reply their bad experience of being kicked for playing offmeta builds and how the game will be harder without meters and that added difficulty from missing information is the enjoyable one
Oh and I forgot that it will be much harder to hide imbalances and bugs
Did I forget any arguments that were said against having meters?
― Plato
Immersion, don't forget that one!
We don't want that piece of UI or anyone to have it. We don't want to deal with that in game.
And yeah, an extra piece of UI for DPS is inmersion breaking.
You asking if we don't want objective and clear information??? Exactly, we don't want it.
You asking if we prefer to spend one week scratching our head for the same result??? Yes, that's what we want.
So I don't care if the toxicity is the same, I dont care if we miss info for some time, I don't care if I have to do trial and error, I don't care if It takes more time to figure out things. I prefer it this way.
For me it's an artificial tool that makes the game too easy, simple and boring.
Ask Steven his reasons to not implement it, because he must have.
Steven is under the wrong impression that objective information causes toxicity.
Your personal desire to obfuscate information is at best incredibly selfish on top of being laughably shortsighted. If the only way you get difficulty out of a game is when the game tells you nothing of value, then your game is not difficult, it is just frustrating.
Difficulty comes when a players knows exactly what they need to do, but the game requires high skills levels, accurate timing, and near-perfect positioning. If simply knowing what’s going on has removed all the the difficulty, then your encounter wasn’t difficult to start with.
Quickly jumping in here, this whole thread is a discussion between a hand full of people.
Maybe you and some others are decent people, others might be J*rks or toxic. Of course, if people are toxic they will always find something to kick or etc. Sadly tools often support an already toxic person to the point it can escalate. Be for or against meters this is just a fact.
I personally do not want meters myself, the reasons I guess are different than that of others. That doesn't take away that I believe everyone should be able to enjoy the game, some want a meter others don't.
Some people might be good performers in an encounter (dungeon, raid, etc) but do want to have their info shared or just do not want/bother with them. This is kind where I stand (personal choice right?)
I do not agree that a meter should be enforced on people directly or indirectly, but as mentioned before I do want people like yourself to enjoy the game, why not
So I do think that a Guild Perk that introduces a Meter just for your guild and it's members, only seeing the info of those guild members (when in group) would be the best solution. This would benefit everyone and yes also make those guilds stand out, it would make some guilds unique. Of course, this perk should come at a cost (for example not being able to put points into the passive buffs or increasing the size)
The idea of a perk sadly got lost, as people tend to just go back and forward on why they want or not want one. Some people in this thread have shown that they are NOT open to meet halfway or even consider the other side.
Despite its flaw, we have also provided a template for a combat tracker that works without that reason, to no avail.
This simply means 3rd party trackers.
There's a lot of rude lads here in this thread, advocating for both opinions. Compared to some interactions on here you'll catch me being mildly spicy at worst.
? Elaborated upon with;
Then here you used hyperbole which you then contradicted, after calling me dishonest, which seems selective in how you're perceiving the way we talk to each other. I could accuse that of being dishonest, but common sense would intervene like "???"
I assume you genuinely believe I'm maliciously crafting wild, vague contexts that would have absolutely zero feasibility in practice to just push the anti-dps meter narrative. To which I ask - why would I do that? If these aren't legitimate concerns of mine, based on legitimate experiences, why would I oppose DPS meters otherwise? There's no reasoning for somebody to spend this much time discussing the topic without sincere interest and worries in it. There is no hidden agenda.
You've reworded this to be less threatening to the bottom performer but you still haven't answered what I meant to be my main reply as; "What is the standard?" What is the fine line, if there is one, for deciding they need to be kicked? If you have 10 people in a group and this guy's damage is less than everybody else but there's more context to it than that, like tanks constantly moving targets out of a CD AoE ability, how do you factor that in? Maybe another player keeps dragging harmful area effects to this player when they try to use a channeled ability, interrupting their cast and measurable productivity as they must move. Who sees it and sticks up for them? How do you prevent them from becoming the scapegoat?
I'm asking for a very clear standard, a SOP even, for determining when a player needs to be removed.
That situation won't happen every group. Of course not. But to me that doesn't make it acceptable. If you want people like-minded with me on your side of the fence, we need a reason to believe that this is mitigated. Some people are already proposing good compromises between the extremes of "have" and "don't have" meters. Compromises clearly aren't out of the question, but if you really want this in the game you need to make an effort to understand the opposing perspective.
Most of us understand why you want meters. We aren't I'm not saying what you seek won't happen if we have them. It feels like, in my reflection of my discussions, there's minimal reciprocation of that from the polar opposite. We're just being told "lol no now lay down".
Good to hear from you, because it is refreshing to read actual points being made other than pure hate on meters.
It is my honest opinion that meters should have restricted access. To people that don't know how to use them and what for it is just a piece of ui that labels their "worth".
As to your point of someone doing low dmg and being kicked for it - I have actually kicked the top dps in my group because those guys were only using AoE to be on top and no spoken/written word helped to avoid wiping.
It all comes down to if the person making decisions about the group is actually looking for more thorough information or any reason to make anyone a scapegoat just to save face in front of everybody.
Btw the "builds" that people want to create only by trial and error - well you guys are going to be on average bottom tier players with or without meters. In any game that is decided by numbers everyone that wants to get better is stripping the "feels good reasons" and is looking for facts on what is working and what is not.
― Plato
Let's see.
I disagree, never had to resort to a meter and figured out every build on my own. Yet in both PVP and PvE I have helped people many many times with their builds and completed all content without any issues.
You cannot generalize
I don't disagree with these. And I see how restricting access would be coming from a place to stifle some of my concerns.
To me, it feels... inevitable, I guess, that meters will eventually be used in a harmful way. Like we can slow it down or redirect it for a while. I was contemplating how something like meters that included a lot of information outside of damage, excluding damage, may be an option. But I think that it would just shift the metric used to criticize, rather than negate it.
You're right; it comes down to people making choices. Maybe proper leadership filtering upwards over time will be what makes it. I could see it happening, but I'd rather have meters added after the fact than gambling on it early. But then how do we define we've reached that point as a community? These rabbit holes go too deep lol.
So far my personal favorite solution I've seen on here is having some "training dummies" with metrics available as you test. Maybe expanded on that, training dummies locked behind guild growth/achievements or even node progress - even as far as giving people a reason to travel to a militaristic node in particular.
But we would need more depth on these to ensure that people can track things besides just flat damage output as well; show some love to support, healing, and tank roles somehow.
― Plato
https://knightsofember.com/forums/members/winner909098.54
How counting numbers detracts from immersion, but seeing the numbers does not?
― Plato
well it was stated by devs, that a lot of top end contend will be beaten by small percentage of players who are really good. So i was making this point all along that dpa meters will make stuff easier and i dont like it tbh. I think not everything needs to be beaten by everyone. And adding stuff like dps meeters lowers the bar.
WoW was cool for people who liked crunching numbers. I wasn't one of them though. I was usually brought along because my wife is a boss healer who won't generally raid without me. I liked the dance of raiding, so I focused on mechanics and utilitarian aspects. I could off-tank and help out in emergency situations as a pally as well. But I gauged success of a run based on how fun it felt. And that meant anything from a night of wipes to a perfect run.
In FFXIV, it was all about looking cool and team synergy. Numbers were a personal thing, and I found that to keep the toxicity at bay a lot.
As far as what I find fun, it would be having character stats as a numberless sliding scale where extreme physical stats can even effect physical appearance. Any gear you get, appearance should usually tell you where on the garbage-cheap-average-good-great-artifact scale things go, and that's your guidepost for item/material stats, but you need pertinent skills to learn about any special abilities, or get a better idea of quality. (But still not exact)
I tend to like the idea of heavy obfuscation of number mechanics/stats, with entities and objects using marginal/conditional distributions on generated stats. Sometimes two goblins are basically the same. Sometimes one might be cake, and the other might put you in the dirt if you're not paying attention. If you get lucky, it was cause he had unusually high-quality item, and it just dropped for you. Well... That might be it. Gonna have to try it to see....
The long sword you just made feels better balanced than the one you made earlier. Either your skill went up or you got lucky. Time will tell.
I'm absolutely sure that this does nothing to prevent the meta-game. But it does prevent total pigeon holing, I believe. I mean when one way of doing something only causes a 10% difference with a +/-5% margin of error on starting conditions, with a +-5% margin of error on situational conditions, it really becomes what feels right to you, and what has worked for you. People are less likely to be able to be held to do things in specific ways due to slim differences in build or output. People are less likely to be be judged on gear/technique and more execution and results.
I know it's not a supremely popular idea, as a lot of RPG players care about the numbers. But give me a dancing sword, or a dagger that summons a shadow beast, and I'll take that over similar items that do 10% more damage over all. At least have, for the player, various unascertainable margins of error within the numbers that make PC life messy enough to allow for some mystery/variety.
edit: mistype
I like your idea of number-less meters, could also have icons that show when someone is applying a debuff/status effect/etc.
But the problem still remains that another piece of UI will be cluttering the screen - unless it's something you can only see by talking to an NPC after the raid is finished?
I'm totally on your vibe though, that fun is way more important than efficiency/min-maxing.