well it was stated by devs, that a lot of top end contend will be beaten by small percentage of players who are really good. So i was making this point all along that dpa meters will make stuff easier and i dont like it tbh. I think not everything needs to be beaten by everyone. And adding stuff like dps meeters lowers the bar.
So, you are saying that you think the developers at Intrepid are so bad at their job that they can't tune content at all, correct?
Because that is literally the only way this argument holds any weight.
As soon as the developers understand the notion of tuning content, this argument is out the window.
While I may have very little faith in Steven, I do have faith in the staff he has. They know what they are doing, even if the ship is essentially captainless.
well it was stated by devs, that a lot of top end contend will be beaten by small percentage of players who are really good. So i was making this point all along that dpa meters will make stuff easier and i dont like it tbh. I think not everything needs to be beaten by everyone. And adding stuff like dps meeters lowers the bar.
Ya if that's what they're going for then keeping out dps meters is the right move. If there is still enough content in the game to keep all player types interested, then it can work out great, and what they are currently aiming for certainly looks that way. Personally, I would rather keep raiding content available to as wide of a population as possible, and just leave the best loot, mounts, etc. for the hardcore guilds via the loot/difficulty scaling system, but I can understand and respect that some people would want only a small percentage of the population having even a chance at experiencing the higher tiers of content. It does make that stuff more meaningful if you're the only doing it.
edit: mistype
Well, i theory all content will be available to all players, nothing will be actually locked out its just a fact that not all players are skilled enough and some simply don't have the time as some others, so its possible that everyone could experience all content, just the ones who are skilled and have more time will beat that content sooner. Others behind might only be able to do it a year after, some might leave the some without ever doing it. I am all for it and i think its fair that a nolifer beats content and gets better shit that me sooner, than me
well it was stated by devs, that a lot of top end contend will be beaten by small percentage of players who are really good. So i was making this point all along that dpa meters will make stuff easier and i dont like it tbh. I think not everything needs to be beaten by everyone. And adding stuff like dps meeters lowers the bar.
So, you are saying that you think the developers at Intrepid are so bad at their job that they can't tune content at all, correct?
Because that is literally the only way this argument holds any weight.
As soon as the developers understand the notion of tuning content, this argument is out the window.
While I may have very little faith in Steven, I do have faith in the staff he has. They know what they are doing, even if the ship is essentially captainless.
You just casually disrespect the person who makes all of this project posible from his own pocket??
No one likes you, if you haven't noticed yet. Gtfo.
well it was stated by devs, that a lot of top end contend will be beaten by small percentage of players who are really good. So i was making this point all along that dpa meters will make stuff easier and i dont like it tbh. I think not everything needs to be beaten by everyone. And adding stuff like dps meeters lowers the bar.
Ya if that's what they're going for then keeping out dps meters is the right move. If there is still enough content in the game to keep all player types interested, then it can work out great, and what they are currently aiming for certainly looks that way. Personally, I would rather keep raiding content available to as wide of a population as possible, and just leave the best loot, mounts, etc. for the hardcore guilds via the loot/difficulty scaling system, but I can understand and respect that some people would want only a small percentage of the population having even a chance at experiencing the higher tiers of content. It does make that stuff more meaningful if you're the only doing it.
edit: mistype
Well, i theory all content will be available to all players, nothing will be actually locked out its just a fact that not all players are skilled enough and some simply don't have the time as some others, so its possible that everyone could experience all content, just the ones who are skilled and have more time will beat that content sooner. Others behind might only be able to do it a year after, some might leave the some without ever doing it. I am all for it and i think its fair that a nolifer beats content and gets better shit that me sooner, than me
The more I look into it, the more I think it's going depend very heavily on how good the difficulty scaling system is. As a WoW raid leader I really did not like spending a bunch of time pouring over logs to try to decipher how the group could improve, but it was necessary, and when the guild progresses the satisfaction is totally worth it. I'm hesitant to believe AoC will be able to capture the same sense of progression without some sort of numerical feedback, but hopeful, because if they can do it, that would be a great system to play under, and definitely one which I would prefer.
Long story short, it can and will be abused, but it's also very useful.
I like a damage/healing meter to see if I can improve, but of course all the things mentioned in this thread can happen too: elitism, obligatory meta and people who think their dps rules all and forget about both synergy and crowd control.
I don't really think it matters, though. If people want to be like that then I don't want to hang around with them anyway. That could be because they want to be more serious about it (which is not wrong!) or because they need compensation. It's a different playstyle and that's fine. Honestly, I care not.
I will find the people who are like me: willing to try anything to see if it works, going out of their way to do so and letting it go if it really doesn't work. Some people hate this, and that's fine too.
You're supposed to find like-minded people anyway, and there will be enough of each "group" to have fun.
Apart from that I'm usually a healer or tank and I'd like to check if it is indeed me or someone is just not interrupting/roasting their behind on the barbie, because you will ALWAYS be blamed, dps meter or no.
Not allowing numbers in any game works only if you don't allow players to customize their build and that they should only focus on what they have and improving themselves.
If you want to transform Ashes (they currently have numbers) into a game without numbers then you basically doom the whole project, because you either make the game super easy so every build is viable and the only thing you can improve on is speedrunning. Or you just doom the playerbase, because nobody will play from frustration on not knowing what the customization does.
Customizing a character goes hand in hand with numbers. I definitely enjoyed RPG's that didn't have numbers, because they were never about creating a character build, but about improving your own gameplay and consuming the content it provided.
MMO without numbers just doesnt work, because most difficulty in the genre is about a static numerical obstacle with a baseline skill level requirement that you eventually can overcome with time.
Hiding information about decisions that you present the player with is just objective bad design. You don't give players 2 choices and say to him that one will help him overcome the coming obstacles, but you will not allow him to find out which one it is. It is literally the same decision as gambling on slot machines - the outcome doesn't depend on the player or his choices
Not allowing numbers in any game works only if you don't allow players to customize their build and that they should only focus on what they have and improving themselves.
If you want to transform Ashes (they currently have numbers) into a game without numbers then you basically doom the whole project, because you either make the game super easy so every build is viable and the only thing you can improve on is speedrunning. Or you just doom the playerbase, because nobody will play from frustration on not knowing what the customization does.
Customizing a character goes hand in hand with numbers. I definitely enjoyed RPG's that didn't have numbers, because they were never about creating a character build, but about improving your own gameplay and consuming the content it provided.
MMO without numbers just doesnt work, because most difficulty in the genre is about a static numerical obstacle with a baseline skill level requirement that you eventually can overcome with time.
Hiding information about decisions that you present the player with is just objective bad design. You don't give players 2 choices and say to him that one will help him overcome the coming obstacles, but you will not allow him to find out which one it is. It is literally the same decision as gambling on slot machines - the outcome doesn't depend on the player or his choices
my understanding is they are not trying to remove numbers from the game. I think Steven recognizes doing more damage is part of individual progression and doesn't want to take that away. I believe the idea is you'll still see how much damage you're doing with each hit, crit, etc., so theorycrafting builds will absolutely still be in the game and the so called "meta" for high-end content. Any individual will be able to improve that way and a raid group will be able to do the same, provided everyone is invested in their own improvement via theorycrafting and testing. DPS meters just make this process easier, so by eliminating DPS meters you aren't necessarily removing the aspect of optomization via customization, but you are making it more difficult. The positives of such a switch is removing the toxicity that dps meters can enable, as outlined by various people in this thread.
So I dont really post much on anything, but i have to say my part here;
I have played 2 mmo's the most wow, and ArcheAge, AA 4 years, and wow since 2nd week it was released, and the contrast from what wow has become to what it was is shown in all the damage meters true min max pure insulting people based on a stat sheet, when i have played with people who were support roles, always interrupting, ccing, buffing the group and helping in anyway they could, and there damage was lower than average, and these people got pointed at (wrongly) from people looking at a single sheet first is X 2nd is Y etc and if your not high up then your not good,
the contrast ArcheAge, quite possibly the best mmo i played no damage meters no mods no need for any of that, you proved your worth with your ability to play the game, make gold, live in pvp combat 1v1 fighting over recourses, and this is how proved my worth into the top nation on the server that dominated for years, not a need for a damage meter or a heal meter
from what i see and know from AoC it is to be the more evolved living and experiencing MMO like ArcheAge was, not the raw math game of wow, and dont get me wrong there will be cookie cutter builds and rotations, but this was found in ArcheAge with out the need for a damage meter, you learnt who was with you when you won and lost fights, you felt the game you experienced it and your fellow players, there is little need to see on a damage meter who is preforming and who is not based on that metric,
i know this is a touchy subject for a lot of people, and i spend my time going through wow logs even today, but just because its there and i use it, doesn't mean its the best way to do it, because its there you have to use it, or you are left behind,
just to also add, from all i see from AoC they are taking the mmo back to roots, and trying to remove the p2w model of so many games that only lives from whales, take it back to the original point where we can all remember the first time we went into an MMO how big the game was how it was so much info you had to try and figure out, not relying on a data base to check you are jumping through hoops correctly, not just on boss mech, but also rotation which is all wow is now, its not fun for me a serious mmo no lifer, there is a reason wow classic doubled wow subscriptions, and i think AoC dev's understand why.
I think the first few comments here that said no dmg meters one even being a creator are the ones i hope this follows, it stays true with all i know and have seen from AoC keep up the good work and ty for making what looks to be the best MMO iv ever seen.
You just casually disrespect the person who makes all of this project posible from his own pocket??
It was not done without careful consideration.
A fully open PvP game with a summons system designed for casual players.
A loot system that rewards performance, with no way for players to guage performance.
A game where rewards are generated via PvE, yet with no discernable intent on sustainable PvE.
A developer claiming to not want players to have to focus on the UI, yet making it so the only way players can see the armor type an opponent is wearing in PvP is by looking at a UI element.
These are not markers of a game with a solid direction. They are markers of someone making it up as they go.
So I dont really post much on anything, but i have to say my part here;
I have played 2 mmo's the most wow, and ArcheAge, AA 4 years, and wow since 2nd week it was released, and the contrast from what wow has become to what it was is shown in all the damage meters true min max pure insulting people based on a stat sheet, when i have played with people who were support roles, always interrupting, ccing, buffing the group and helping in anyway they could, and there damage was lower than average, and these people got pointed at (wrongly) from people looking at a single sheet first is X 2nd is Y etc and if your not high up then your not good,
the contrast ArcheAge, quite possibly the best mmo i played no damage meters no mods no need for any of that, you proved your worth with your ability to play the game, make gold, live in pvp combat 1v1 fighting over recourses, and this is how proved my worth into the top nation on the server that dominated for years, not a need for a damage meter or a heal meter
from what i see and know from AoC it is to be the more evolved living and experiencing MMO like ArcheAge was, not the raw math game of wow, and dont get me wrong there will be cookie cutter builds and rotations, but this was found in ArcheAge with out the need for a damage meter, you learnt who was with you when you won and lost fights, you felt the game you experienced it and your fellow players, there is little need to see on a damage meter who is preforming and who is not based on that metric,
i know this is a touchy subject for a lot of people, and i spend my time going through wow logs even today, but just because its there and i use it, doesn't mean its the best way to do it, because its there you have to use it, or you are left behind,
just to also add, from all i see from AoC they are taking the mmo back to roots, and trying to remove the p2w model of so many games that only lives from whales, take it back to the original point where we can all remember the first time we went into an MMO how big the game was how it was so much info you had to try and figure out, not relying on a data base to check you are jumping through hoops correctly, not just on boss mech, but also rotation which is all wow is now, its not fun for me a serious mmo no lifer, there is a reason wow classic doubled wow subscriptions, and i think AoC dev's understand why.
I think the first few comments here that said no dmg meters one even being a creator are the ones i hope this follows, it stays true with all i know and have seen from AoC keep up the good work and ty for making what looks to be the best MMO iv ever seen.
ty for reading.
A few points.
Archeage had a combat tracker, I used it for about 3 years. It wasn't popular, but it existed.
Second, Archeage has no PvE content to speak of, and literally no top end PvE content. The dragon, Kraken and Leviathan were top end PvP content - but were not difficult encounters if taken on without competition. This lack of top end PvE means combat trackers are far less useful than in a game with PvE content. Ashes is supposed to have top end PvE content.
Third, aside from RMT, the biggest issue with Archeage is the lack of movement in the games meta. You will still see more Darkrunners and Daggerspells in that game than any other class - 6 years after launch. Players are too scared to shift from the meta (or to group up with people that shift from the meta), and so that meta is essentially stagnant.
Lastly, not only does Ashes offer PvE content, but that PvE content is set to offer rewards based on your perfromance, yet without a combat tracker will not offer a way to monitor that performance. This is obviously a poor situation to put players in - if you are rewarded based on any factor, you should be able to assess how well you are doing in that specific factor.
As to the difference between Archeage and WoW, first of all, I suggest you play other games.
There absolutely is a difference in the level of toxicity between players in those games. Thing is, that isn't due to combat trackers, it is due to teh games design.
If you spend some time playing a game like EQ, EQ2 or Rift, you will see an even greater difference in the way players interact with each other. In those three games, you will see players use combat trackers as much as in WoW, but you will also see players treat each other with even more respect than in any other game.
This is because the game treats it's players with respect, and so players treat each other with respect.
If you play WoW, you have the ability to form groups automatically. Who the others in your group are don't matter, and so you don't need to treat them as anything other than a means for you to get in to the content in question. This doesn't foster players treating each other with respect.
Archeage has this as well, with content like BR/GR/MM/Halcy having groups automatically form - which is where the bulk of players play that game. If you are playing either game at a step above this basiclevel, then you start to get in to players treating each other with a bit more respect - top end players in WoW don't treat each other as disposable as lower levels treat each other (though not a whole lot better, to be honest), and in Archeage, players that are more focused on the top end guild activities rather than the above mentioned community content will find themselves being treated with more respect from their peers.
This is nothing at all to do with combat trackers, even if it may seem to be the case on the surface (especially if these are the only games you have played). All it takes to see how this is not the case is to play a game with high combat tracker use, and high player respect.
As soon as you play a game like this, you quickly see how ludicrous this notion is.
If a combat tracker isn't baked into the game, it'll be modded in. If mods aren't allowed, it'll be a third party program.
The War on Data is a losing proposition. Imo it's better to bake it in properly for people instead of creating an underground community to not only accomplish the same thing, but become even more exclusionary.
You just aren't going to control community sentiment. If someone wants to not care about performance there will be social guilds that accommodate. If they want to be hard-core and not mess around in content there will be guilds that accommodate. Random queued content putting both camps into the same pool is a bigger problem than the meter itself.
If anything, you should be able to queue into either Meter Enabled or Meter Disabled groups if LFG is implemented. That way you get what you ask for.
@Noaani
I totally disagree with your approach here. First and foremost Steven wants this game to not have p2w and be focused purely on community. That alone makes the game much better than many you have mentioned. What is also hugely important that if you want to introduce more utopistic elements and systems to the game then now is the time to do so. We can focus on the reality of player behavior in public beta and being vocal about those issues then. We are literally living on promises right now and it very well may come to the point where top-end gear just doesnt matter, because of the power difference from more available sources and the upkeep costs.
Definitely I think it is totally disrespectful and out of place to bash so hard the person that made this whole project possible. I will gladly disagree with some of the points i might dislike, but I think it is fair for him to have some things in the game for now - even if we don't see a realistic way of it functioning to its designed purpose.
@Noaani
i can counter point pretty much all you said (and yes a lot of it was based on facts but not directly to the point i was making) but what i wanted to do was not to cause an argument or a disagreement, was more just to state that imo a meter is not needed in this game, (and yes i have played plenty of other mmo's including the ones you mentioned, but the 2 i stated have a high contrast so they were just an example) even for when loot from mobs is given to the group with the highest damage and yes i can see a minor use for it then, but does it matter? this is to avoid 1 tagging.
but you have to look at what the devs are doing and how they think, and the "no mods" a mmo you feel, you play you experience, is much much different to the number crunching wow and other such games striving only for the meta, dont get me wrong i love to push for a meta and the most efficient way to do something, but i like to figure it out myself, the statement ,i tried to show i based my opinions on facts, simple fact in all the years of AA contesting Apes and Play Faction, and such, i didnt ever hear of a combat tracker, yes iv seen people use all the stealth detect mods and get banned sooner or later same with the teleport hacks and location hacks, each player only lasted a short duration before they inevitably were banned (and AA has a 10x better detection than wow).
And i am sorry to sound conflicting but i will address 2 of your points as it was to incorrect for me to ignore, the dark runner build became obsolete for the executioner build years ago and this was only for small group combat, if you wanted to make a difference in a fight you got a 4 bit anthalon set and went and controlled a fight, group stick and call nuke on your position, also with wow the running of mythic + and mythic dungeons the real end game content you had to group with players from your server not a lfg system so this removed a point of toxicity as the disposable player life is a fundamental cause of toxic behaviour "i wont see them again so who cares", i am sorry to have been baited into a digression of my main point
My opinion just to make sure i get it across correctly and not push for an argument as thats the last thing i want, the idea i have seen the devs push for AoC is amazing, the lack of needed 25 addons to play properly, the ability to have to get a feel of the players your with, the environment, to really immerse yourself inside an mmo instead of having to break down everything and the problem with meters is that so few can read them properly, there is a lot of information and its all subjective, to many people just see a basic 1 2 3 and this is not correct at all, but it does bread toxicity,
I'm sure you've noticed that my opinions are generally well considered. This is something of a long post, but I thought it worth explaining my reasoning. Not so much in an effort to try and convince anyone of my opinion here,but rather to show why I am one of a very small group of people that even could have this opinion.
Definitely I think it is totally disrespectful and out of place to bash so hard the person that made this whole project possible.
From your perspective (or at least, my assumption of your perspective), I totally agree.
Thing is, I've been on these forums (and the old forums) no less than a few times a week for over 3 years. I've spent my time learning the game as it was presented, and also defending it against all sorts of people (especially the corruption system).
There are only a half dozen posters still here from back then, and most of them either are or aspire to be content creators (and some of whom are people I'd actually pay some attention to if I did end up playing thos game, despite my general disdain for gaming based content creators).
For most of that time, the lack of support for combat tracker was my only issue at all with the game, as it was presented.
I was easily able to defend the game, because when looked at from above, the systems all worked together well. When one thing seemed broken, there was already a system intended to deal with that situation.
The game, as a whole, made sense.
Then the Amonswtfever interview happened.
The game no longer makes sense.
The family summons was announced and my first thought was that it was a late April Fools (late due to Covid, no doubt). For years Intrepid talked about the importance of location in Ashes. Location of materials, infrastructure content and players all mattered, and were all supposed to be major considerations. Add in the family summons, and the only thing that matters is the location of materials.
There was no mention of this until the game hit a more mainstream audience - in fact it was stated that the only fast travel in the game would be the metropolis level node perk.
While people can (and no doubt will) argue that he has said that this will be tested and removed if needed, my response to that is as follows;
A situation where a game developer very publically announces a new feature that drastically departs from the stated design intention of the game, for players to then tear to shreds in regards to suitability for said game, to then have the developer say they will test it and remove it if needed - that to me is the very definition of a leaderless game being developed.
I honestly don't think I could come up with a better scenario to illustrate how a game being developed with the person in charge not sticking to the script would go.
People that only started paying serious attention to this game after that interview will have only known the game in the form it is presented now. That form is vastly different to the form the game was presented to us for the previous three years.
It isn't only the family summons that is out of place, I listed four things in my previous post, and there absolutely are more.
This leads me to believe one of two things - either Steven is a sellout and attempted to make the game more mass-appealing at the first sign of mass exposure, or the game is not following it's original game design intention (leaderless ship).
Since there have been no changes to the way Intrepid is making money, I chose to believe that it is not a case of selling out. It doesn't hold true, and that is a claim I would only make if I were damn sure it was true due to the implications that would have (if he was selling out now, the game would have a P2W cash shop at the first possible chance).
As to the leaderless ship situation - for any good points people may have about him, it is important to remember that Steven has absolutely zero experience in MMO design prior to Ashes. To think he won't make mistakes is folley in itself - of course he will. With any luck, Intrepid knew this would happen and have a plan in place for it.
So, leaderless is all that is left - both as the most likely, and as the least bad of the probable situations.
As to why I think it is ok for me to say this, as opposed to just think it, it is because I see no negative in doing so.
If I say it, Steven may read it. He reads the forums often, but I am of the assumption that merging these threads together was his way of consolidating threads that he doesn't want to read down in to one, in which case he won't read it and who cares.
On the other hand, if he does read it, he can either agree with me or disagree with me. If he agrees, saying it absolutely was a good thing. If he disagrees with me, then presumably he has thick enough skin to handle it (and perhaps reply with a thumbs up as he did when I told him that a dozen or so of my friends, along with a few hundred acquaintances had all told him to fuck off).
Then there is the slim chance that he reads this, disagrees with me, and has thin skin. If this happens, I'm sure my forum account - if not my game account - will be terminated. Thing is, if this happens, Steven will then know that he shouldn't be the public face for the development of an MMO, at least not once it goes live, and so this would be a good thing to know now.
So, me saying it only results in good or neutral things - at least as far as I can tell.
While I fully expect almost everyone on the forums to disagree with my position here, I also expect anyone that has had any real interaction with me to know that I consider my opinions before making them public, and none moreso than this opinion - and also that I have little issue in explaining those considerations.
And i am sorry to sound conflicting but i will address 2 of your points as it was to incorrect for me to ignore, the dark runner build became obsolete for the executioner build years ago and this was only for small group combat, if you wanted to make a difference in a fight you got a 4 bit anthalon set and went and controlled a fight, group stick and call nuke on your position, also with wow the running of mythic + and mythic dungeons the real end game content you had to group with players from your server not a lfg system so this removed a point of toxicity as the disposable player life is a fundamental cause of toxic behaviour "i wont see them again so who cares", i am sorry to have been baited into a digression of my main point
Executioner is only any good in fully organized raid vs fully organized raid. The best way to defeat it as a build if you come up against it is to not be organized, it is kind of hard to play against that kind of opposition - at least, this was the case when I last played the game, with how slow the meta is in that game I assume it is still the case now, and will be until at least 2023 (if the game is still around then).
Both this point and the point you made about mythic dungeons and such in WoW were addressed in my previos post where I said that the bulk of players do not play in that segment of the game, and things change in both games when you get in to it.
When you get in to more organized PvP raiding in Archeage, things change a bit. The meta is a little more open, but not much. Thing is, this is only 10% of the player base. In WoW, when you get to mythic content, you tend to get treated better. Thing is, this is only 10% of the play base.
You are essentially compairing the 90% of WoW to the 10% of Archeage, and saying the way Archeage does it is better - without actually looking at the over all picture.
If you compare the whole of both games to each other, the differences are not as great as you are making them out to be. Both games have the bulk of the population treated like shit by the game, and so treated like shit by other players. Both games see players make their way out of this if they manage to get to that top 10%. Neither game is a particularly good model for any new MMO.
@Noaani
Ok,i have read a few of your posts let me use the world boss's for example and your desire to have a instance based "world boss", and for pure heart pve encounter you are correct its the only way to have a challenging raid is to have it static and not the potential to get bigger but only better (no zerg) to remove the pvp element so that you are able to be undisturbed while doing the encounter, but from what i see this is not the main focus of AoC the contesting and interacting with other players is the key component, "we" as a player base make the world and make the content, as such i would assume that contesting world boss's might only be for the top groups/guilds, but i did like your post where you pointed out all 4 ways of having pve content and trying to incorporate all, but this would as you said just cater to the masses "bit for everyone" when you make a game there are many things people will dislike i see from your posts you have played a few mmo's but you dislike a lot of things in them, in regards to this i think you have a very analytical brain and enjoy the thinking process, and outside of this forum thread if we spoke we might agree on many things as i do personally with some (not all but i love a debate) of your other comments.
To keep this on topic, with out trying to cause offence and with the assumption my statement on your analytical brain is correct (and i dont mean it as an insult only a compliment) i think you have just got used to using a meter to assist in your thinking, maybe you are one of the few who can read it correctly and utilize it properly. I just think this is why you are so adamant that it should be in place, i would also like to see the combat tracker for AA as i couldn't find any evidence of one and through my experience i never knew of one existing, so i would like to think my example of a game with out one still stands until proven otherwise.
As for executioner v dark runner, dark runner became obsolete with the expansion of ancestral levels for small scale combat, as i ran with eranor wep and ayanad for my off set dps i went from dark runner to executioner, as for main set it was ofc skullknight 4 set anthalon and kraken scepter for all large scale pvp, as that was main focus for the nation i was in, and i only got my off set as doing things solo was not so fun as a skullknight. the combat i was in was part of maybe 5%-10% of the player base on EU servers, pretty much only player nation v player nation, as for a dark runner or executioner build in the 40v40 + pvp it was awful, you want to just be a melee who drops in on a pull ? no, you want the tank there and a lot of caster AoE if you send an over exposed melee around to back line even in a group of 10, it just gets a tank pull on them stick them and the casters simply drop them in 5 seconds, so a meta for 1v1 yes but for real pvp no, 2 tank could counter 20 dark runners,
the original factions were a rather friendly and helpful group of which i also integrated as i had about 10 alts in each faction to use for labour, i am only saying this to show you that i incorporated 100% of archeage population, sending my dps gear over to alts in different factions to help people i had come to know move more difficult trade routs while not being hostile to them, or join them in a dungeon to help them get some gear or there daily dungeon done.
I found that AA had one of the best communities in any game i have played, only the previously mentioned 5%-10% of the population that took part in contested world boss's and pvping had any level of toxicity. The main bulk went around helped each other and lived in the game its self, doing there small trade packs upgrading there house and trying to get to the next tear set for gear, but doing it rather slowly, but enjoying the game, conversations in main cities and role play was pretty damn high, then lets use this to wow, how much RP was in wow when i stopped playing retail about 4 years ago, not much, did i interact with another human outside of my guild which i did the mythic+ and mythic raids with ? no, personally i didnt, people looked at a meter and commented ether on me being high in my respective role or some poor new guy joining a heroic for the first time being told how trash they were about 10 times. this was the main interaction i saw then outside of guild ofc, for the crafting side as i said archeage had more life to it, people did there potato farming together had conversations while doing it, and how was this done in wow ? "get away from my node" or the best in classic just mine dont loot and wait for player to leave so u can get the next with out them spam clicking trying to take it, (classic by the way much better community even if the content is lacking any skill what so ever)
So in short char progression in archeage you did with people, to generate a community and in wow do your daily's your quests your dungeons and LFR, and this is this,
so please now i ask you how am i looking only at a small picture? i stand by i picked 2 contrasting games which is hard to do as most are based of the wow model. I would also ask we stay on the main topic of the DPS meter/combat tracker and not go down digressions as much as it might be interesting for you and me, but the other people reading this will just see disagreements on another game they may care not about, and using an example off topic to prove your point is not a valid way to have a good progression in a conversation,
I stand by the need for a combat tracker is not great, and when a player has lived with out (even after coming to rely on it though other games and experiences) the player adapts and gets used to using more than a presented case of information but rather spending time testing with other player around ether taking damage and testing ways to increasing healing output, or by testing damage bursts, sustained damage on a healed target this interaction can be used for all a combat tracker does to increase ether hps or dps output over X time, it just requires interaction with players apposed to a text box, and i am 100% for this.
@Noaani
Ok,i have read a few of your posts let me use the world boss's for example and your desire to have a instance based "world boss", and for pure heart pve encounter you are correct its the only way to have a challenging raid is to have it static and not the potential to get bigger but only better (no zerg) to remove the pvp element so that you are able to be undisturbed while doing the encounter, but from what i see this is not the main focus of AoC the contesting and interacting with other players is the key component, "we" as a player base make the world and make the content, as such i would assume that contesting world boss's might only be for the top groups/guilds, but i did like your post where you pointed out all 4 ways of having pve content and trying to incorporate all, but this would as you said just cater to the masses "bit for everyone" when you make a game there are many things people will dislike i see from your posts you have played a few mmo's but you dislike a lot of things in them, in regards to this i think you have a very analytical brain and enjoy the thinking process, and outside of this forum thread if we spoke we might agree on many things as i do personally with some (not all but i love a debate) of your other comments.
If Intrepid had have said the only raid content they plan on having in Ashes was open world contested content (as per the types I posted that you refer to), then I would possibly agree with you, but more likely than that, I wouldn't even be here.
I only backed this game because of one statement.
That statement is;
There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.
This statement can not be true if the only raid content in Ashes is open world content. I'm sure if you looked at the content in Archeage, you will see that this statement simply can not hold true for it in any possible way.
Based on the idea directly from Steven that Intrepid want this kind of progression based raiding, it makes no sense to not have a combat tracker to facilitate it. It also make no sense to have the only raid content type be open world, as that simply can not see this statement be made true.
so please now i ask you how am i looking only at a small picture? i stand by i picked 2 contrasting games which is hard to do as most are based of the wow model.
You are forgetting (or perhaps didn't experience) events like BR/GR/MM where players would start getting booted from the first raid if they were off spec, and if the second raid for these events was full, they were literally left to their own devices for the event, day after day.
This also bled over in to any player organized activity in which more than a full raid were wanting to join. Library runs, Oculus runs, Halcy (until it was changed to see groups form automatically), in all of these situations, people took on the same stance tehy had for other events - if you are not the right spec, you don't get to take up a raid spot.
This is the kind of exclusionary toxicity that both WoW and Archeage share. WoW may have waited to see how the person would parse, but only because they could. Without a combat tracker, players would have found ways to exclude people just as quickly.
Any content in which the groups are formed automatically results in the same player behavior (which is the point I am making). In WoW, this is essentiually 90% of the entire game, and so the volume of toxicity is higher, even if the level of it is about the same as it is in Archeage (which it is around these activities - wrong spec gets booted as soon as there are more people available).
What I will say about Archeage and it's community though, is that when talking about open world activities, people often do get on better than in WoW. That again though is a result of game development and design decisions, not of the absence of a combat tracker. Archeage gives players the ability to really ruin each others day if they want to, and so it is always pleasent when someone choses to not do that.
However, since the comparison between these two games is in relation to how a games systems create toxicity in the playerbase of each game, and both have high levels of toxicity around automated group forming systems, the point I have made on this in the past still stands.
So i've played my fair share of WoW where if you don't have a DPS meter you don't belong in any end game content, to FF14 where its banned in the terms of service and I don't use it at all. I do think its important for a game to be able to tell its players if they are performing their job properly which neither actually do. Add-ons in WoW are just tools for min/max and saving time but everyone of them ruins the experience of the game imo. FF14 on the other hand has no add on support and if caught you break the terms of service. In that game you learn over time when its going well but there is little to nothing telling any new player how they are doing and its a big learning curve to become good because its all learn by playing, or watching some damn video to save 'others' time. I am better at FF14 because the game forces me to understand its own systems better.
I think a personal Dps/heal/mitigation indicator that compares your dps to others but only displays to you how you are doing. Like Falling Behind, Needs Improvement, Moderate, Doing Well, Crushing it could be a nice way to keep it to yourself but inform the player that they may or may not have some work to do to be better. This could even come at the end of a fight for all I care or in some separate menu. What I hate about Dps meters in wow is you are judged by other players in settings where there isnt any need for the judgement and nothing really helping you as to why there is a problem. I mean if I'm mythic raiding or doing ultimates in ff14 then its another story and you need the harsh criticism to reach the goal, but many times in WoW im just flat out not allowed to get better because my Dps isnt good enough when really I just need some damn practice at the fight. With a full on Dps meter its like you are programmed to have to be at the top 3 or your doing something wrong and you are shunned from even trying in many cases. If I am doing something wrong, it would be nice for the game to give me an indicator that there is something your missing, try out your abilities differently and not some ass hat in game saying do this or don't play, or go watch this video and play your class correctly. I'm not playing a game so I can go watch a damn class rotation video. No, I am here to learn in game because I want to learn how the game works in a nuanced way. No spreadsheets, or damage accumulators. If the game does its job properly in teaching the player, the need for these systems are less necessary and the issue can be solved with limited resources used by the developers. Class based quests that focus on how to excel in a rotation merging it with lore will bring players closer to why it beneficial in fun way and not, hey here's a new fire beam for no reason with random numbers that change randomly . I also think with extended time in leveling like it sounds like there will be, the game can give you ample time to use the skill before the next one comes and you can work out for yourself how to best combine things together, especially with the huge amount of class archetypes available.
@Noaani
So i think in reading your last statement related to raiding and combat tracker (the point i wanted to stay on) that you are interested in min maxing a class and your role to only focus on end game pve content that provides a challenge to you, that has been and most/all other things are just a means to that goal?
just basing that on your statement starting "I only backed this game because of one statement."
and if what i am saying is correct then i 100% understand your view point and desire for a combat tracker.
And i would in part agree with you, that you to have a finely tuned pve content it has to be in an instance, but only because of the key word "pve" if its open world its subject to contesting, BUT if you incorporate pvp as an element into a pve encounter it could be like the early days of AA contest world boss's for 10 hours straight, they didnt despawn after 2h like they did later. (and yes the content in AA is like you stated its really simple)
So a lot of our comments about AA meta etc are basically pointless, it was just a game with out a combat tracker (as i asked for proof and didnt get one and after years of playing it when i first started omg i wanted a dmg meter for the exact same reasons you are stating now) that is literally the whole point of bringing AA into the conversation at all, how it was not needed.
I wonder when you played AA as 6 months after it came out i never found this, i was leaving 2-5 alts in 2nd raids for daily quests (CR GR) and for MM i also just had afk alts for the honour, while on my main contesting ether the other made nation or just fighting nuia or haranya, Or as i stated if i was bored i would send my off spec gear over and just play on the alts in the respective factions for these events with friends, i always found i was most welcome even as a known player of a nation, as all my char were called the same, with a variant, the only people booted were toxic people, or known PK'rs, so i guess you were playing on a much higher population server? or maybe you started on a later fresh server that pulled a very high toxic population fast?
in short i disagree, Archeage went down the "get bigger not better lets blob" path, 40 "wrong spec" with 20 "good spec", would still contest 25 highly tuned players just doing an out of main time MM for example, so i just think you had some bad experience, i dont think you ever moved to a player made nation or pirate faction, i think you didnt like a DR meta as it was for a long time in small scale so you were unable to do the more risky trade runs solo, and you saw the pve content was heavily lacking in relation to raiding, so i guess you didnt spend long in that game as from what i read what you like or dislike that game seems far from anything you would enjoy.
i agree automatic group forming is a heavy lead to toxicity, and we both agree in principle on the core problems with wow, but i think i have shown i was not thinking on a small picture when i made my initial statements, and like i said some of your points are 100% accurate but they have little relevance to the main topic the combat tracker,
as a basic summery of our conversation with out the added information off topic, you want to min max, and focus on pve top end raiding with challenging encounters that will take you and a group 100's of
if not 1000's of tries to finish, with little information on how the encounter works (quite like vanilla wow and this mentality i 100% approve of btw)
but i find that to be a small aspect of what i see in AoC, i see heavy focus on crafting, on world pvp, contesting pve events with interesting pve encounters and so much more, this mixture to me will be a lot more immersing with out combat trackers and the like, and this is something i really like in AoC i think you can agree on my statement as i also agree on yours, assuming i am correct with my assumption based on your statement
I only backed this game because of one statement.
That statement is;
There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.
So can we be content in both of our opinions matter and expressing them is the reason for this forum thread? and trying to push that any other human being is wrong in an opinion, this is not a fact based argument despite the fact we both brought up some real elements(some relevant some not) to prove why we have our opinions (still would really like to see the combat tracker in AA)
so i guess you were playing on a much higher population server?
Probably.
I started day 1 on Ollo, which was not just high population, but also high activity, high drama, and high Trion developer count. Raids for most public events were filled up an hour or more before the event (people would go from BR to forming a raid for GR). The secondary raids were also always full of actual players. It was about 2 years in before people really had the ability to have alts in the secondary raid.
Excluding players was just a fact of the game for a very long time, and the only way people had to exclude players quickly was either their gear or their class. Since the events in question were there to help people gear up (sort of), it is a good thing players generally opted to chose based on class.
It is worth noting that I have also said a smaller available population will see a signficant improvement in player interaction - again with WoW allowing cross server grouping being a majoe issue for that game (the fact that the LFG system is both automatic and cross server is hilariously bad game design). This should - in theory - apply to all games. I can't see restricting the population of an MMO as being a good idea though.
So i think in reading your last statement related to raiding and combat tracker (the point i wanted to stay on) that you are interested in min maxing a class and your role to only focus on end game pve content that provides a challenge to you, that has been and most/all other things are just a means to that goal?
just basing that on your statement starting "I only backed this game because of one statement."
and if what i am saying is correct then i 100% understand your view point and desire for a combat tracker.
And i would in part agree with you, that you to have a finely tuned pve content it has to be in an instance, but only because of the key word "pve" if its open world its subject to contesting, BUT if you incorporate pvp as an element into a pve encounter it could be like the early days of AA contest world boss's for 10 hours straight, they didnt despawn after 2h like they did later. (and yes the content in AA is like you stated its really simple)
This is not quite true.
I fully intend to take part in as much of the game as I possibly can. In this regard, more is always better. However, I will not play another game that does not have top end PvE content that is difficult in and of itself - 5 years in Archeage was enough of that.
Since I plan on doing many things - top end PvE content, caravans, sieges, maybe even look at taking over a castle if I am in a position to do so - I will obviously run multiple builds. I am not necessarily always interested in running the single best build for the task I am about to take on, as Ashes is a game where other things may be forced on you at a moments notice.
What I do want to know though, is how far off optimal the build I am running at any given time is. If I have a build that is what I consider to be the best for the PvE encounter I am about to take on, I want to know how far off of that I am with the build I am using - since the build I will use will always be more multi-role.
I do not think this is an unreasonable thing to want to be able to do - especially in a game where the rewards are handed out not just based on if you kill an encounter or not, but also on how fast you kill it (this point is important). This isn't a case of the group or raid with the most damage on the target gets the rewards (though this is a fact of the game), but rather the better a job you do at killing an encounter, the better the rewards that will drop actually are. Thus, we have an important and material reason for wanting to know how we are performing.
I also want to know if an issue in my raid is caused by us not knowing the content, a player in the raid being distracted, a poor player in the raid, a good player with a poor spec, anything. If 40 people are involved, guesswork should not be a factor.
It is poor form of Intrepid to expect raids of 40 people to spend that much time guessing at what could be going wrong, rather than providing them with tools to actually work out what is going wrong. It is borderline irresponsible in regards to player time wasted.
Combat trackers are not just used to min-max your build - they are used to troubleshoot. They help you find issues with your build, your tactics, your target and your combat system. No one of these factors is any more or less important than the other factors.
It is poor form of Intrepid to expect raids of 40 people to spend that much time guessing at what could be going wrong, rather than providing them with tools to actually work out what is going wrong. It is borderline irresponsible in regards to player time wasted.
The thing is, they won't keep combat trackers out. FFXIV made it against the TOS but it's understood that you just don't talk about it in game, but if you're serious about performance you use the third party program. Even Monster Hunter World has a combat tracker.
It's simply naive for them to think combat tracking won't exist. For people thinking they'll be safe from toxicity without, you must not have followed GW2, where some classes just didn't get invites to content based almost exclusively on community perception. There wasn't even a third party mod, people just timed solo kills on a particular mob to demonstrate dps potential and it was enough to keep Necros out of pubs.
People are spitting into the wind if they think they can hide from toxicity with no combat tracking, and Intrepid has their head in the sand if they think they'll keep a dedicated community from developing the tools they feel they need to excel.
It is poor form of Intrepid to expect raids of 40 people to spend that much time guessing at what could be going wrong, rather than providing them with tools to actually work out what is going wrong. It is borderline irresponsible in regards to player time wasted.
The thing is, they won't keep combat trackers out. FFXIV made it against the TOS but it's understood that you just don't talk about it in game, but if you're serious about performance you use the third party program. Even Monster Hunter World has a combat tracker.
It's simply naive for them to think combat tracking won't exist. For people thinking they'll be safe from toxicity without, you must not have followed GW2, where some classes just didn't get invites to content based almost exclusively on community perception. There wasn't even a third party mod, people just timed solo kills on a particular mob to demonstrate dps potential and it was enough to keep Necros out of pubs.
People are spitting into the wind if they think they can hide from toxicity with no combat tracking, and Intrepid has their head in the sand if they think they'll keep a dedicated community from developing the tools they feel they need to excel.
That is interesting about MHW. I never played it, so have no real reason to know, but that game was used earlier in this thread as an example of the closest thing to an MMO to not have a combat tracker. My lack of knowledge of the game saw me not really care to refute the claim - the fact that it is far removed from an MMO was enough in itself to make that point moot.
However, the fact that it does have one is just amusing.
I have been saying for over a year now that I know of three groups that are making a combat tracker for Ashes, two of which I am following closely.
I am also on record as saying that I expect someone from Intrepid to make an unofficial one at some point - I know a number of the staff there are absolutely pro-combat tracker, as they have seen what players are able to do with it (and in the case of some staff at Intrepid, I have had direct interaction with them in several other games myself that has involved combat trackers and game fixes).
Developers should focus on a good balance and give reasons to bring archetypes into the raid that is beyond simple dps performance.
Toxicity always comes from systems that allow you to replace players with no downside for doing so.
I agree as well.
A simple combat tracker (the kind I would want to see) would take more time to develop the UI of than anything else. The information is already on hand, all that needs to be done is present it to players.
It would take much less developer time than attempting to prevent combat trackers, which means more time for them to focus on other things.
Firstly, why are the title and focus of this discussion on damage only?
In my opinion the opportunity to record and analyze all types of actions, damage, healing, other effects generated by self and group members, as well as incoming enemy effects is very important! Having metrics is essential for minmaxing individual builds and group compositions, as well as group tactics.
I realize not everyone wishes to minmax, but some of us do, and it is an essential part of the fun for us, and I very much hope this will be supported.
For people and groups who do not wish to see the data: it should be easily possible to have recording (and all display) of data turned of.
Yes, it's great when you're topping meters and shredding content, and boy does it feel cool when you're told "great job on that fight! Your DPS was so high!", but do we really want that to be the extent of the content? Just another game where we're playing from a meter?
Realistically, I think it's more important that AoC implement interesting fights and mechanics which reward players for thinking outside the box or using their spells and abilities in meaningful ways. I'm not talking just Group A does more DPS therefore Boss dies faster. There should be a ton of different factors that play into group performance each fight, and these should feel unique to each fight as much as possible. I understand there may be overlapping mechanics and this is definitely asking for a lot, but hell, shouldn't we be? Shouldn't the goal be to create this epic experience? There should be a strong focus on making players feel like they're part of an epic group of adventurers, not just a bunch of ragtag people there to beat the everliving hell out of whatever thing is in front of them only to go down a ramp, beat the crap out of some smallbois, head over to the next boss and smash its face in too.
In short: Screw DPS meters, screw elitism. Personal DPS, sure have a training zone where you can see how much DPS you're doing so you can practice your own optimal rotations, but even that can be used in a toxic manner. Applying for a raid group? "Yeah just send over a picture of you doing 25k dps or higher in Training and you're in".
Nah fam. Get me out of that. Sounds like trash. If I wanted to play from a meter, I'd play WoW. I don't want another experience where all I do is sit through a "Mythic" encounter where I'm just watching my numbers go up.
Since this topic is been going on for more than three years now I figured I put my thoughts regarding this topic into a video. Summarizing my opinion on the whole matter.
Comments
So, you are saying that you think the developers at Intrepid are so bad at their job that they can't tune content at all, correct?
Because that is literally the only way this argument holds any weight.
As soon as the developers understand the notion of tuning content, this argument is out the window.
While I may have very little faith in Steven, I do have faith in the staff he has. They know what they are doing, even if the ship is essentially captainless.
Well, i theory all content will be available to all players, nothing will be actually locked out its just a fact that not all players are skilled enough and some simply don't have the time as some others, so its possible that everyone could experience all content, just the ones who are skilled and have more time will beat that content sooner. Others behind might only be able to do it a year after, some might leave the some without ever doing it. I am all for it and i think its fair that a nolifer beats content and gets better shit that me sooner, than me
You just casually disrespect the person who makes all of this project posible from his own pocket??
No one likes you, if you haven't noticed yet. Gtfo.
The more I look into it, the more I think it's going depend very heavily on how good the difficulty scaling system is. As a WoW raid leader I really did not like spending a bunch of time pouring over logs to try to decipher how the group could improve, but it was necessary, and when the guild progresses the satisfaction is totally worth it. I'm hesitant to believe AoC will be able to capture the same sense of progression without some sort of numerical feedback, but hopeful, because if they can do it, that would be a great system to play under, and definitely one which I would prefer.
I like a damage/healing meter to see if I can improve, but of course all the things mentioned in this thread can happen too: elitism, obligatory meta and people who think their dps rules all and forget about both synergy and crowd control.
I don't really think it matters, though. If people want to be like that then I don't want to hang around with them anyway. That could be because they want to be more serious about it (which is not wrong!) or because they need compensation. It's a different playstyle and that's fine. Honestly, I care not.
I will find the people who are like me: willing to try anything to see if it works, going out of their way to do so and letting it go if it really doesn't work. Some people hate this, and that's fine too.
You're supposed to find like-minded people anyway, and there will be enough of each "group" to have fun.
Apart from that I'm usually a healer or tank and I'd like to check if it is indeed me or someone is just not interrupting/roasting their behind on the barbie, because you will ALWAYS be blamed, dps meter or no.
If you want to transform Ashes (they currently have numbers) into a game without numbers then you basically doom the whole project, because you either make the game super easy so every build is viable and the only thing you can improve on is speedrunning. Or you just doom the playerbase, because nobody will play from frustration on not knowing what the customization does.
Customizing a character goes hand in hand with numbers. I definitely enjoyed RPG's that didn't have numbers, because they were never about creating a character build, but about improving your own gameplay and consuming the content it provided.
MMO without numbers just doesnt work, because most difficulty in the genre is about a static numerical obstacle with a baseline skill level requirement that you eventually can overcome with time.
Hiding information about decisions that you present the player with is just objective bad design. You don't give players 2 choices and say to him that one will help him overcome the coming obstacles, but you will not allow him to find out which one it is. It is literally the same decision as gambling on slot machines - the outcome doesn't depend on the player or his choices
― Plato
my understanding is they are not trying to remove numbers from the game. I think Steven recognizes doing more damage is part of individual progression and doesn't want to take that away. I believe the idea is you'll still see how much damage you're doing with each hit, crit, etc., so theorycrafting builds will absolutely still be in the game and the so called "meta" for high-end content. Any individual will be able to improve that way and a raid group will be able to do the same, provided everyone is invested in their own improvement via theorycrafting and testing. DPS meters just make this process easier, so by eliminating DPS meters you aren't necessarily removing the aspect of optomization via customization, but you are making it more difficult. The positives of such a switch is removing the toxicity that dps meters can enable, as outlined by various people in this thread.
I have played 2 mmo's the most wow, and ArcheAge, AA 4 years, and wow since 2nd week it was released, and the contrast from what wow has become to what it was is shown in all the damage meters true min max pure insulting people based on a stat sheet, when i have played with people who were support roles, always interrupting, ccing, buffing the group and helping in anyway they could, and there damage was lower than average, and these people got pointed at (wrongly) from people looking at a single sheet first is X 2nd is Y etc and if your not high up then your not good,
the contrast ArcheAge, quite possibly the best mmo i played no damage meters no mods no need for any of that, you proved your worth with your ability to play the game, make gold, live in pvp combat 1v1 fighting over recourses, and this is how proved my worth into the top nation on the server that dominated for years, not a need for a damage meter or a heal meter
from what i see and know from AoC it is to be the more evolved living and experiencing MMO like ArcheAge was, not the raw math game of wow, and dont get me wrong there will be cookie cutter builds and rotations, but this was found in ArcheAge with out the need for a damage meter, you learnt who was with you when you won and lost fights, you felt the game you experienced it and your fellow players, there is little need to see on a damage meter who is preforming and who is not based on that metric,
i know this is a touchy subject for a lot of people, and i spend my time going through wow logs even today, but just because its there and i use it, doesn't mean its the best way to do it, because its there you have to use it, or you are left behind,
just to also add, from all i see from AoC they are taking the mmo back to roots, and trying to remove the p2w model of so many games that only lives from whales, take it back to the original point where we can all remember the first time we went into an MMO how big the game was how it was so much info you had to try and figure out, not relying on a data base to check you are jumping through hoops correctly, not just on boss mech, but also rotation which is all wow is now, its not fun for me a serious mmo no lifer, there is a reason wow classic doubled wow subscriptions, and i think AoC dev's understand why.
I think the first few comments here that said no dmg meters one even being a creator are the ones i hope this follows, it stays true with all i know and have seen from AoC keep up the good work and ty for making what looks to be the best MMO iv ever seen.
ty for reading.
A fully open PvP game with a summons system designed for casual players.
A loot system that rewards performance, with no way for players to guage performance.
A game where rewards are generated via PvE, yet with no discernable intent on sustainable PvE.
A developer claiming to not want players to have to focus on the UI, yet making it so the only way players can see the armor type an opponent is wearing in PvP is by looking at a UI element.
These are not markers of a game with a solid direction. They are markers of someone making it up as they go.
Archeage had a combat tracker, I used it for about 3 years. It wasn't popular, but it existed.
Second, Archeage has no PvE content to speak of, and literally no top end PvE content. The dragon, Kraken and Leviathan were top end PvP content - but were not difficult encounters if taken on without competition. This lack of top end PvE means combat trackers are far less useful than in a game with PvE content. Ashes is supposed to have top end PvE content.
Third, aside from RMT, the biggest issue with Archeage is the lack of movement in the games meta. You will still see more Darkrunners and Daggerspells in that game than any other class - 6 years after launch. Players are too scared to shift from the meta (or to group up with people that shift from the meta), and so that meta is essentially stagnant.
Lastly, not only does Ashes offer PvE content, but that PvE content is set to offer rewards based on your perfromance, yet without a combat tracker will not offer a way to monitor that performance. This is obviously a poor situation to put players in - if you are rewarded based on any factor, you should be able to assess how well you are doing in that specific factor.
As to the difference between Archeage and WoW, first of all, I suggest you play other games.
There absolutely is a difference in the level of toxicity between players in those games. Thing is, that isn't due to combat trackers, it is due to teh games design.
If you spend some time playing a game like EQ, EQ2 or Rift, you will see an even greater difference in the way players interact with each other. In those three games, you will see players use combat trackers as much as in WoW, but you will also see players treat each other with even more respect than in any other game.
This is because the game treats it's players with respect, and so players treat each other with respect.
If you play WoW, you have the ability to form groups automatically. Who the others in your group are don't matter, and so you don't need to treat them as anything other than a means for you to get in to the content in question. This doesn't foster players treating each other with respect.
Archeage has this as well, with content like BR/GR/MM/Halcy having groups automatically form - which is where the bulk of players play that game. If you are playing either game at a step above this basiclevel, then you start to get in to players treating each other with a bit more respect - top end players in WoW don't treat each other as disposable as lower levels treat each other (though not a whole lot better, to be honest), and in Archeage, players that are more focused on the top end guild activities rather than the above mentioned community content will find themselves being treated with more respect from their peers.
This is nothing at all to do with combat trackers, even if it may seem to be the case on the surface (especially if these are the only games you have played). All it takes to see how this is not the case is to play a game with high combat tracker use, and high player respect.
As soon as you play a game like this, you quickly see how ludicrous this notion is.
The War on Data is a losing proposition. Imo it's better to bake it in properly for people instead of creating an underground community to not only accomplish the same thing, but become even more exclusionary.
You just aren't going to control community sentiment. If someone wants to not care about performance there will be social guilds that accommodate. If they want to be hard-core and not mess around in content there will be guilds that accommodate. Random queued content putting both camps into the same pool is a bigger problem than the meter itself.
If anything, you should be able to queue into either Meter Enabled or Meter Disabled groups if LFG is implemented. That way you get what you ask for.
I totally disagree with your approach here. First and foremost Steven wants this game to not have p2w and be focused purely on community. That alone makes the game much better than many you have mentioned. What is also hugely important that if you want to introduce more utopistic elements and systems to the game then now is the time to do so. We can focus on the reality of player behavior in public beta and being vocal about those issues then. We are literally living on promises right now and it very well may come to the point where top-end gear just doesnt matter, because of the power difference from more available sources and the upkeep costs.
Definitely I think it is totally disrespectful and out of place to bash so hard the person that made this whole project possible. I will gladly disagree with some of the points i might dislike, but I think it is fair for him to have some things in the game for now - even if we don't see a realistic way of it functioning to its designed purpose.
― Plato
i can counter point pretty much all you said (and yes a lot of it was based on facts but not directly to the point i was making) but what i wanted to do was not to cause an argument or a disagreement, was more just to state that imo a meter is not needed in this game, (and yes i have played plenty of other mmo's including the ones you mentioned, but the 2 i stated have a high contrast so they were just an example) even for when loot from mobs is given to the group with the highest damage and yes i can see a minor use for it then, but does it matter? this is to avoid 1 tagging.
but you have to look at what the devs are doing and how they think, and the "no mods" a mmo you feel, you play you experience, is much much different to the number crunching wow and other such games striving only for the meta, dont get me wrong i love to push for a meta and the most efficient way to do something, but i like to figure it out myself, the statement ,i tried to show i based my opinions on facts, simple fact in all the years of AA contesting Apes and Play Faction, and such, i didnt ever hear of a combat tracker, yes iv seen people use all the stealth detect mods and get banned sooner or later same with the teleport hacks and location hacks, each player only lasted a short duration before they inevitably were banned (and AA has a 10x better detection than wow).
And i am sorry to sound conflicting but i will address 2 of your points as it was to incorrect for me to ignore, the dark runner build became obsolete for the executioner build years ago and this was only for small group combat, if you wanted to make a difference in a fight you got a 4 bit anthalon set and went and controlled a fight, group stick and call nuke on your position, also with wow the running of mythic + and mythic dungeons the real end game content you had to group with players from your server not a lfg system so this removed a point of toxicity as the disposable player life is a fundamental cause of toxic behaviour "i wont see them again so who cares", i am sorry to have been baited into a digression of my main point
My opinion just to make sure i get it across correctly and not push for an argument as thats the last thing i want, the idea i have seen the devs push for AoC is amazing, the lack of needed 25 addons to play properly, the ability to have to get a feel of the players your with, the environment, to really immerse yourself inside an mmo instead of having to break down everything and the problem with meters is that so few can read them properly, there is a lot of information and its all subjective, to many people just see a basic 1 2 3 and this is not correct at all, but it does bread toxicity,
I'm sure you've noticed that my opinions are generally well considered. This is something of a long post, but I thought it worth explaining my reasoning. Not so much in an effort to try and convince anyone of my opinion here,but rather to show why I am one of a very small group of people that even could have this opinion.
From your perspective (or at least, my assumption of your perspective), I totally agree.
Thing is, I've been on these forums (and the old forums) no less than a few times a week for over 3 years. I've spent my time learning the game as it was presented, and also defending it against all sorts of people (especially the corruption system).
There are only a half dozen posters still here from back then, and most of them either are or aspire to be content creators (and some of whom are people I'd actually pay some attention to if I did end up playing thos game, despite my general disdain for gaming based content creators).
For most of that time, the lack of support for combat tracker was my only issue at all with the game, as it was presented.
I was easily able to defend the game, because when looked at from above, the systems all worked together well. When one thing seemed broken, there was already a system intended to deal with that situation.
The game, as a whole, made sense.
Then the Amonswtfever interview happened.
The game no longer makes sense.
The family summons was announced and my first thought was that it was a late April Fools (late due to Covid, no doubt). For years Intrepid talked about the importance of location in Ashes. Location of materials, infrastructure content and players all mattered, and were all supposed to be major considerations. Add in the family summons, and the only thing that matters is the location of materials.
There was no mention of this until the game hit a more mainstream audience - in fact it was stated that the only fast travel in the game would be the metropolis level node perk.
While people can (and no doubt will) argue that he has said that this will be tested and removed if needed, my response to that is as follows;
A situation where a game developer very publically announces a new feature that drastically departs from the stated design intention of the game, for players to then tear to shreds in regards to suitability for said game, to then have the developer say they will test it and remove it if needed - that to me is the very definition of a leaderless game being developed.
I honestly don't think I could come up with a better scenario to illustrate how a game being developed with the person in charge not sticking to the script would go.
People that only started paying serious attention to this game after that interview will have only known the game in the form it is presented now. That form is vastly different to the form the game was presented to us for the previous three years.
It isn't only the family summons that is out of place, I listed four things in my previous post, and there absolutely are more.
This leads me to believe one of two things - either Steven is a sellout and attempted to make the game more mass-appealing at the first sign of mass exposure, or the game is not following it's original game design intention (leaderless ship).
Since there have been no changes to the way Intrepid is making money, I chose to believe that it is not a case of selling out. It doesn't hold true, and that is a claim I would only make if I were damn sure it was true due to the implications that would have (if he was selling out now, the game would have a P2W cash shop at the first possible chance).
As to the leaderless ship situation - for any good points people may have about him, it is important to remember that Steven has absolutely zero experience in MMO design prior to Ashes. To think he won't make mistakes is folley in itself - of course he will. With any luck, Intrepid knew this would happen and have a plan in place for it.
So, leaderless is all that is left - both as the most likely, and as the least bad of the probable situations.
As to why I think it is ok for me to say this, as opposed to just think it, it is because I see no negative in doing so.
If I say it, Steven may read it. He reads the forums often, but I am of the assumption that merging these threads together was his way of consolidating threads that he doesn't want to read down in to one, in which case he won't read it and who cares.
On the other hand, if he does read it, he can either agree with me or disagree with me. If he agrees, saying it absolutely was a good thing. If he disagrees with me, then presumably he has thick enough skin to handle it (and perhaps reply with a thumbs up as he did when I told him that a dozen or so of my friends, along with a few hundred acquaintances had all told him to fuck off).
Then there is the slim chance that he reads this, disagrees with me, and has thin skin. If this happens, I'm sure my forum account - if not my game account - will be terminated. Thing is, if this happens, Steven will then know that he shouldn't be the public face for the development of an MMO, at least not once it goes live, and so this would be a good thing to know now.
So, me saying it only results in good or neutral things - at least as far as I can tell.
While I fully expect almost everyone on the forums to disagree with my position here, I also expect anyone that has had any real interaction with me to know that I consider my opinions before making them public, and none moreso than this opinion - and also that I have little issue in explaining those considerations.
Both this point and the point you made about mythic dungeons and such in WoW were addressed in my previos post where I said that the bulk of players do not play in that segment of the game, and things change in both games when you get in to it.
When you get in to more organized PvP raiding in Archeage, things change a bit. The meta is a little more open, but not much. Thing is, this is only 10% of the player base. In WoW, when you get to mythic content, you tend to get treated better. Thing is, this is only 10% of the play base.
You are essentially compairing the 90% of WoW to the 10% of Archeage, and saying the way Archeage does it is better - without actually looking at the over all picture.
If you compare the whole of both games to each other, the differences are not as great as you are making them out to be. Both games have the bulk of the population treated like shit by the game, and so treated like shit by other players. Both games see players make their way out of this if they manage to get to that top 10%. Neither game is a particularly good model for any new MMO.
Ok,i have read a few of your posts let me use the world boss's for example and your desire to have a instance based "world boss", and for pure heart pve encounter you are correct its the only way to have a challenging raid is to have it static and not the potential to get bigger but only better (no zerg) to remove the pvp element so that you are able to be undisturbed while doing the encounter, but from what i see this is not the main focus of AoC the contesting and interacting with other players is the key component, "we" as a player base make the world and make the content, as such i would assume that contesting world boss's might only be for the top groups/guilds, but i did like your post where you pointed out all 4 ways of having pve content and trying to incorporate all, but this would as you said just cater to the masses "bit for everyone" when you make a game there are many things people will dislike i see from your posts you have played a few mmo's but you dislike a lot of things in them, in regards to this i think you have a very analytical brain and enjoy the thinking process, and outside of this forum thread if we spoke we might agree on many things as i do personally with some (not all but i love a debate) of your other comments.
To keep this on topic, with out trying to cause offence and with the assumption my statement on your analytical brain is correct (and i dont mean it as an insult only a compliment) i think you have just got used to using a meter to assist in your thinking, maybe you are one of the few who can read it correctly and utilize it properly. I just think this is why you are so adamant that it should be in place, i would also like to see the combat tracker for AA as i couldn't find any evidence of one and through my experience i never knew of one existing, so i would like to think my example of a game with out one still stands until proven otherwise.
As for executioner v dark runner, dark runner became obsolete with the expansion of ancestral levels for small scale combat, as i ran with eranor wep and ayanad for my off set dps i went from dark runner to executioner, as for main set it was ofc skullknight 4 set anthalon and kraken scepter for all large scale pvp, as that was main focus for the nation i was in, and i only got my off set as doing things solo was not so fun as a skullknight. the combat i was in was part of maybe 5%-10% of the player base on EU servers, pretty much only player nation v player nation, as for a dark runner or executioner build in the 40v40 + pvp it was awful, you want to just be a melee who drops in on a pull ? no, you want the tank there and a lot of caster AoE if you send an over exposed melee around to back line even in a group of 10, it just gets a tank pull on them stick them and the casters simply drop them in 5 seconds, so a meta for 1v1 yes but for real pvp no, 2 tank could counter 20 dark runners,
the original factions were a rather friendly and helpful group of which i also integrated as i had about 10 alts in each faction to use for labour, i am only saying this to show you that i incorporated 100% of archeage population, sending my dps gear over to alts in different factions to help people i had come to know move more difficult trade routs while not being hostile to them, or join them in a dungeon to help them get some gear or there daily dungeon done.
I found that AA had one of the best communities in any game i have played, only the previously mentioned 5%-10% of the population that took part in contested world boss's and pvping had any level of toxicity. The main bulk went around helped each other and lived in the game its self, doing there small trade packs upgrading there house and trying to get to the next tear set for gear, but doing it rather slowly, but enjoying the game, conversations in main cities and role play was pretty damn high, then lets use this to wow, how much RP was in wow when i stopped playing retail about 4 years ago, not much, did i interact with another human outside of my guild which i did the mythic+ and mythic raids with ? no, personally i didnt, people looked at a meter and commented ether on me being high in my respective role or some poor new guy joining a heroic for the first time being told how trash they were about 10 times. this was the main interaction i saw then outside of guild ofc, for the crafting side as i said archeage had more life to it, people did there potato farming together had conversations while doing it, and how was this done in wow ? "get away from my node" or the best in classic just mine dont loot and wait for player to leave so u can get the next with out them spam clicking trying to take it, (classic by the way much better community even if the content is lacking any skill what so ever)
So in short char progression in archeage you did with people, to generate a community and in wow do your daily's your quests your dungeons and LFR, and this is this,
so please now i ask you how am i looking only at a small picture? i stand by i picked 2 contrasting games which is hard to do as most are based of the wow model. I would also ask we stay on the main topic of the DPS meter/combat tracker and not go down digressions as much as it might be interesting for you and me, but the other people reading this will just see disagreements on another game they may care not about, and using an example off topic to prove your point is not a valid way to have a good progression in a conversation,
I stand by the need for a combat tracker is not great, and when a player has lived with out (even after coming to rely on it though other games and experiences) the player adapts and gets used to using more than a presented case of information but rather spending time testing with other player around ether taking damage and testing ways to increasing healing output, or by testing damage bursts, sustained damage on a healed target this interaction can be used for all a combat tracker does to increase ether hps or dps output over X time, it just requires interaction with players apposed to a text box, and i am 100% for this.
I only backed this game because of one statement.
That statement is;
This statement can not be true if the only raid content in Ashes is open world content. I'm sure if you looked at the content in Archeage, you will see that this statement simply can not hold true for it in any possible way.
Based on the idea directly from Steven that Intrepid want this kind of progression based raiding, it makes no sense to not have a combat tracker to facilitate it. It also make no sense to have the only raid content type be open world, as that simply can not see this statement be made true. You are forgetting (or perhaps didn't experience) events like BR/GR/MM where players would start getting booted from the first raid if they were off spec, and if the second raid for these events was full, they were literally left to their own devices for the event, day after day.
This also bled over in to any player organized activity in which more than a full raid were wanting to join. Library runs, Oculus runs, Halcy (until it was changed to see groups form automatically), in all of these situations, people took on the same stance tehy had for other events - if you are not the right spec, you don't get to take up a raid spot.
This is the kind of exclusionary toxicity that both WoW and Archeage share. WoW may have waited to see how the person would parse, but only because they could. Without a combat tracker, players would have found ways to exclude people just as quickly.
Any content in which the groups are formed automatically results in the same player behavior (which is the point I am making). In WoW, this is essentiually 90% of the entire game, and so the volume of toxicity is higher, even if the level of it is about the same as it is in Archeage (which it is around these activities - wrong spec gets booted as soon as there are more people available).
What I will say about Archeage and it's community though, is that when talking about open world activities, people often do get on better than in WoW. That again though is a result of game development and design decisions, not of the absence of a combat tracker. Archeage gives players the ability to really ruin each others day if they want to, and so it is always pleasent when someone choses to not do that.
However, since the comparison between these two games is in relation to how a games systems create toxicity in the playerbase of each game, and both have high levels of toxicity around automated group forming systems, the point I have made on this in the past still stands.
I think a personal Dps/heal/mitigation indicator that compares your dps to others but only displays to you how you are doing. Like Falling Behind, Needs Improvement, Moderate, Doing Well, Crushing it could be a nice way to keep it to yourself but inform the player that they may or may not have some work to do to be better. This could even come at the end of a fight for all I care or in some separate menu. What I hate about Dps meters in wow is you are judged by other players in settings where there isnt any need for the judgement and nothing really helping you as to why there is a problem. I mean if I'm mythic raiding or doing ultimates in ff14 then its another story and you need the harsh criticism to reach the goal, but many times in WoW im just flat out not allowed to get better because my Dps isnt good enough when really I just need some damn practice at the fight. With a full on Dps meter its like you are programmed to have to be at the top 3 or your doing something wrong and you are shunned from even trying in many cases. If I am doing something wrong, it would be nice for the game to give me an indicator that there is something your missing, try out your abilities differently and not some ass hat in game saying do this or don't play, or go watch this video and play your class correctly. I'm not playing a game so I can go watch a damn class rotation video. No, I am here to learn in game because I want to learn how the game works in a nuanced way. No spreadsheets, or damage accumulators. If the game does its job properly in teaching the player, the need for these systems are less necessary and the issue can be solved with limited resources used by the developers. Class based quests that focus on how to excel in a rotation merging it with lore will bring players closer to why it beneficial in fun way and not, hey here's a new fire beam for no reason with random numbers that change randomly . I also think with extended time in leveling like it sounds like there will be, the game can give you ample time to use the skill before the next one comes and you can work out for yourself how to best combine things together, especially with the huge amount of class archetypes available.
So i think in reading your last statement related to raiding and combat tracker (the point i wanted to stay on) that you are interested in min maxing a class and your role to only focus on end game pve content that provides a challenge to you, that has been and most/all other things are just a means to that goal?
just basing that on your statement starting "I only backed this game because of one statement."
and if what i am saying is correct then i 100% understand your view point and desire for a combat tracker.
And i would in part agree with you, that you to have a finely tuned pve content it has to be in an instance, but only because of the key word "pve" if its open world its subject to contesting, BUT if you incorporate pvp as an element into a pve encounter it could be like the early days of AA contest world boss's for 10 hours straight, they didnt despawn after 2h like they did later. (and yes the content in AA is like you stated its really simple)
So a lot of our comments about AA meta etc are basically pointless, it was just a game with out a combat tracker (as i asked for proof and didnt get one and after years of playing it when i first started omg i wanted a dmg meter for the exact same reasons you are stating now) that is literally the whole point of bringing AA into the conversation at all, how it was not needed.
I wonder when you played AA as 6 months after it came out i never found this, i was leaving 2-5 alts in 2nd raids for daily quests (CR GR) and for MM i also just had afk alts for the honour, while on my main contesting ether the other made nation or just fighting nuia or haranya, Or as i stated if i was bored i would send my off spec gear over and just play on the alts in the respective factions for these events with friends, i always found i was most welcome even as a known player of a nation, as all my char were called the same, with a variant, the only people booted were toxic people, or known PK'rs, so i guess you were playing on a much higher population server? or maybe you started on a later fresh server that pulled a very high toxic population fast?
in short i disagree, Archeage went down the "get bigger not better lets blob" path, 40 "wrong spec" with 20 "good spec", would still contest 25 highly tuned players just doing an out of main time MM for example, so i just think you had some bad experience, i dont think you ever moved to a player made nation or pirate faction, i think you didnt like a DR meta as it was for a long time in small scale so you were unable to do the more risky trade runs solo, and you saw the pve content was heavily lacking in relation to raiding, so i guess you didnt spend long in that game as from what i read what you like or dislike that game seems far from anything you would enjoy.
i agree automatic group forming is a heavy lead to toxicity, and we both agree in principle on the core problems with wow, but i think i have shown i was not thinking on a small picture when i made my initial statements, and like i said some of your points are 100% accurate but they have little relevance to the main topic the combat tracker,
as a basic summery of our conversation with out the added information off topic, you want to min max, and focus on pve top end raiding with challenging encounters that will take you and a group 100's of
if not 1000's of tries to finish, with little information on how the encounter works (quite like vanilla wow and this mentality i 100% approve of btw)
but i find that to be a small aspect of what i see in AoC, i see heavy focus on crafting, on world pvp, contesting pve events with interesting pve encounters and so much more, this mixture to me will be a lot more immersing with out combat trackers and the like, and this is something i really like in AoC i think you can agree on my statement as i also agree on yours, assuming i am correct with my assumption based on your statement
I only backed this game because of one statement.
That statement is;
There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.
So can we be content in both of our opinions matter and expressing them is the reason for this forum thread? and trying to push that any other human being is wrong in an opinion, this is not a fact based argument despite the fact we both brought up some real elements(some relevant some not) to prove why we have our opinions (still would really like to see the combat tracker in AA)
I started day 1 on Ollo, which was not just high population, but also high activity, high drama, and high Trion developer count. Raids for most public events were filled up an hour or more before the event (people would go from BR to forming a raid for GR). The secondary raids were also always full of actual players. It was about 2 years in before people really had the ability to have alts in the secondary raid.
Excluding players was just a fact of the game for a very long time, and the only way people had to exclude players quickly was either their gear or their class. Since the events in question were there to help people gear up (sort of), it is a good thing players generally opted to chose based on class.
It is worth noting that I have also said a smaller available population will see a signficant improvement in player interaction - again with WoW allowing cross server grouping being a majoe issue for that game (the fact that the LFG system is both automatic and cross server is hilariously bad game design). This should - in theory - apply to all games. I can't see restricting the population of an MMO as being a good idea though.
This is not quite true.
I fully intend to take part in as much of the game as I possibly can. In this regard, more is always better. However, I will not play another game that does not have top end PvE content that is difficult in and of itself - 5 years in Archeage was enough of that.
Since I plan on doing many things - top end PvE content, caravans, sieges, maybe even look at taking over a castle if I am in a position to do so - I will obviously run multiple builds. I am not necessarily always interested in running the single best build for the task I am about to take on, as Ashes is a game where other things may be forced on you at a moments notice.
What I do want to know though, is how far off optimal the build I am running at any given time is. If I have a build that is what I consider to be the best for the PvE encounter I am about to take on, I want to know how far off of that I am with the build I am using - since the build I will use will always be more multi-role.
I do not think this is an unreasonable thing to want to be able to do - especially in a game where the rewards are handed out not just based on if you kill an encounter or not, but also on how fast you kill it (this point is important). This isn't a case of the group or raid with the most damage on the target gets the rewards (though this is a fact of the game), but rather the better a job you do at killing an encounter, the better the rewards that will drop actually are. Thus, we have an important and material reason for wanting to know how we are performing.
I also want to know if an issue in my raid is caused by us not knowing the content, a player in the raid being distracted, a poor player in the raid, a good player with a poor spec, anything. If 40 people are involved, guesswork should not be a factor.
It is poor form of Intrepid to expect raids of 40 people to spend that much time guessing at what could be going wrong, rather than providing them with tools to actually work out what is going wrong. It is borderline irresponsible in regards to player time wasted.
Combat trackers are not just used to min-max your build - they are used to troubleshoot. They help you find issues with your build, your tactics, your target and your combat system. No one of these factors is any more or less important than the other factors.
The thing is, they won't keep combat trackers out. FFXIV made it against the TOS but it's understood that you just don't talk about it in game, but if you're serious about performance you use the third party program. Even Monster Hunter World has a combat tracker.
It's simply naive for them to think combat tracking won't exist. For people thinking they'll be safe from toxicity without, you must not have followed GW2, where some classes just didn't get invites to content based almost exclusively on community perception. There wasn't even a third party mod, people just timed solo kills on a particular mob to demonstrate dps potential and it was enough to keep Necros out of pubs.
People are spitting into the wind if they think they can hide from toxicity with no combat tracking, and Intrepid has their head in the sand if they think they'll keep a dedicated community from developing the tools they feel they need to excel.
Developers should focus on a good balance and give reasons to bring archetypes into the raid that is beyond simple dps performance.
Toxicity always comes from systems that allow you to replace players with no downside for doing so.
― Plato
However, the fact that it does have one is just amusing.
I have been saying for over a year now that I know of three groups that are making a combat tracker for Ashes, two of which I am following closely.
I am also on record as saying that I expect someone from Intrepid to make an unofficial one at some point - I know a number of the staff there are absolutely pro-combat tracker, as they have seen what players are able to do with it (and in the case of some staff at Intrepid, I have had direct interaction with them in several other games myself that has involved combat trackers and game fixes).
I agree as well.
A simple combat tracker (the kind I would want to see) would take more time to develop the UI of than anything else. The information is already on hand, all that needs to be done is present it to players.
It would take much less developer time than attempting to prevent combat trackers, which means more time for them to focus on other things.
Lineage 2 Veteran
In my opinion the opportunity to record and analyze all types of actions, damage, healing, other effects generated by self and group members, as well as incoming enemy effects is very important! Having metrics is essential for minmaxing individual builds and group compositions, as well as group tactics.
I realize not everyone wishes to minmax, but some of us do, and it is an essential part of the fun for us, and I very much hope this will be supported.
For people and groups who do not wish to see the data: it should be easily possible to have recording (and all display) of data turned of.
Mip, from ESO? If so, I think I may have been in a guild with you...
Realistically, I think it's more important that AoC implement interesting fights and mechanics which reward players for thinking outside the box or using their spells and abilities in meaningful ways. I'm not talking just Group A does more DPS therefore Boss dies faster. There should be a ton of different factors that play into group performance each fight, and these should feel unique to each fight as much as possible. I understand there may be overlapping mechanics and this is definitely asking for a lot, but hell, shouldn't we be? Shouldn't the goal be to create this epic experience? There should be a strong focus on making players feel like they're part of an epic group of adventurers, not just a bunch of ragtag people there to beat the everliving hell out of whatever thing is in front of them only to go down a ramp, beat the crap out of some smallbois, head over to the next boss and smash its face in too.
In short: Screw DPS meters, screw elitism. Personal DPS, sure have a training zone where you can see how much DPS you're doing so you can practice your own optimal rotations, but even that can be used in a toxic manner. Applying for a raid group? "Yeah just send over a picture of you doing 25k dps or higher in Training and you're in".
Nah fam. Get me out of that. Sounds like trash. If I wanted to play from a meter, I'd play WoW. I don't want another experience where all I do is sit through a "Mythic" encounter where I'm just watching my numbers go up.