Toxicity will always exist in some form in all games.
A meta will always exist in some form in all games.
These two facts are unavoidable due to human nature. Excluding some way to parse combat logs does not prevent either of these things happening, it simply makes the job of assessing your own performance more difficult.
I'm not a top player, but I do like to understand how my actions in game during combat relate to real world performance. How else am I meant to understand the impact of my gearing and build choices? For a lot of people it's not about simply finding what's "best", it's about having the ability to optimise and understand the choices you make and how they impact what you're able to do.
Talking more from a group perspective as a guild leader or officer, I like to understand where weak links exist so that I can resolve problems. These weak links may be down to player skill of course, but they may also be down to the choices we make while our characters grow or simply down to class differences. Being able to see these things allows guild leaders to customise group composition to fit their guilds' desired goals. Any guild with even the smallest hint of competitiveness will want the ability to do this.
While I appreciate and understand the stated design goal of "every tank class can tank every encounter" the fact remains that one of them will be the best. There will be advantages and disadvantages to each (hopefully on an encounter by encounter basis) but one will always stand out. I would be far, far more worried if this wasn't the case as at that point we have reached class homogeneity, rendering personal choices obsolete. Why make certain choices if at the end of the game everything is equal and the only difference is in the colour of your armour or the shape of your weapon?
In summary, I appreciate the downsides of making certain data available to players and those cannot be ignored. However, they should not be ignored at the cost of allowing players access to the information they need to improve their play and make informed choices about how to build their character.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Do you realize that "reducing toxicity" and "removing toxicity" is literally the same thing?
LMAO
Here you prove that you don't know what remove means, you don't know what reduce means and you don't know what literally means.
So... further discussion with you is pointless.
Imagine keeping thread alive for 86 pages and never realizing how insignificant the topic really is. Add it in, don't add it in...the game will still be great with or without it AND there are more important topics that deserve this much thought and care. This discussion has devolved into arguing about players knowledge of what the words "remove" and "reduce" mean and how someone doesn't know anything about end game metas/player behavior. The goal is to have Steven/Intrepid read these comments and gain insight on how to proceed in development. The jabs at each other just reduce the brain cells of the readers.
If you think a dps meter causes toxicity, you are in the wrong guild (join my guild, I'll prove it). Stop thinking that a dps meter will create toxicity in random groups. It's not a thing in AoC. You don't get to sit in town 24/7 and play with a group finder. I've never had dps issues from guildees because I help them. If you aren't willing to help someone else to achieve a common goal, you don't need to be playing mmorpgs. I don't even want a dps meter but if it is in the game, I would use it. Keep this shit professional so the community doesn't turn into a heaping pile of Activision-Blizzard.
I personally believe that DPS meters and addons that are used too ie, measure raid content is, as others have stated, bad for the game. It does feed into a toxic enviroment, and jt ruins the enjoyment of the combat when people are more focused on keeping up an optimal parce to maximise their DPS, it kills the potential multitude of diversity that the combat has if everyone starts optimizing their combat after the dps parse that does the most damage for each respective class. ESO is massively toxic and elitist in raid content because of this element, if you can't reach a certain dps threshold during every single boss encounter then you're frowned upon and often kicked as a result. I am absolutely against any third party addons and DPS meters, as it ruins the diversity and fun elements of combat and it often breeds contempt in player group's. It's a massive no from my side.
Do you realize that "reducing toxicity" and "removing toxicity" is literally the same thing?
LMAO
Here you prove that you don't know what remove means, you don't know what reduce means and you don't know what literally means.
So... further discussion with you is pointless.
Ladies and gentlemen here we have a prime example of a person that has extremely underdeveloped logical thinking. So let's show how my statement is actually true:
"reducing toxicity" is a process of shrinking the % of player to player interactions that are toxic up to 0% "removing toxicity" is a process of removing toxic player to player interactions that has an effect of reducing the overall toxic player to player interactions count
So you have 2 descriptions or "labels" of the exact same process - which actually is the best usage for the phrase "literally the same"
The only difference I acknowledge is that both statements imply a different perception, because human mind views the word "removing" as more harsh than "reducing"
So please, when you find yourself in a discussion with this forum poster, please refrain from expecting any logical argumentation, because the said forum poster is unable to process it
Thing is that we know next to nothing how actual raids (not those open mini world loot boxes) are going to actually work and we have just an early look at skills and builds in general - i could even say that those seem like placeholder skills to me if they didnt have actually decent animations in the alfa.
I get it - but if you are a gameplay guy and not an exposition guy then you don't really care how beautiful it looks, how the economy looks like, how the quest system works or how the node systems even work - because all of that is just world exposition
How it feels to control your character, what things you can do with your builds, what challenges you can do with your character - that is gameplay - and I can't in good conscience talk about the control of your character when I don't have alfa, can't talk about builds since it is mostly just preview of few things with some placeholders and the rest planned for future alfa stages
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This thread has really only discussed in detail one issues raised about DPS meters and left some of the other issues unaddressed. To me, one other significant issue a DPS meter has the potential to incur is the accelerated knowledge that comes from the interpretation of the information that would otherwise have taken hours upon hours of multiple tries and collective knowledge to obtain.
This, to me, the knowledge shortens playability of a game and threatens its longevity.
In one of Jahon`s videos, he explained how his partner had an average character but after review of her DPS he was able to change her strategy and take her from mid game to end game playability.
If this approach is permitted, then the mid game players get pushed to end game and the field is no longer a range of capabilities.
I don`t see a solution for this other that what has already been suggested will be implemented.
But then again, way back, I recall playing RPG`s and there was no internet to fall back on, or others to consult with and I had to just work it out and that is what made the achievements so much more meaning full.
Whereas nowadays, get stuck for more than 5min, and it is way too tempting to just do a quick forum search, watch a youtube video or post a question and you are provided the solution on a platter and can get back into it. A great medium has become the death of effort and reward.
The unfortunate workaound I see is this then falls back on the developers to increase and keep increasing (at considerable cost and time) the sophistication of the game dynamics. And that cost and time, I would imagine is exponential.
This, to me, the knowledge shortens playability of a game and threatens its longevity.
Easy to learn, hard to master...
And there is some really good game where knowledge increase its longevity. The more you know the game, the more you play it. This is the specificity of roguelite, but we can also see this in different form in solo RPG (where there is a natural end) and if it exist for solo RPG, so it is for MMORPG where there is no end
example of games not roguelite where the more you know, the more you realise you did low part of game and want to do more : souls game, many metroid vania. Fallout 1/2/new vegas where you replay.
If a MMORPG got shorten a lot because people have combat tracker, this is the game design the problem. . . If people got bored before they killed end game content 1 years ago and have nothing more to do, it is not combat tracker, sharing advice and information or anything the problem, but the game design...
And also, it is another game design problem : longevity = end... MMORPG = never ending game
And if one thing can have a "endless" longevity it is a faction vs faction system MMORPG, The PvE can have a end, but a well made PvP MMORPG will never get an end. (you can get bored after doing 10k hours of pvp, but not for this you got "the end" )
FFXIV game mechanics didnt change from ARR, we know them extremly well. They didnt need to add more sophistication, increase difficulty of class gameplay. And this is a PvE game... (with worst PvP for a mmorpg) They just have to continue to produce PvE content. (then comes the vertical problems). This is the same for its big brother, FFXI. People understood quite early most system mechanics.
If they manage to create a good gameplay, with the "easy to learn, hard to master" logic, the simple fact the game is PvP will allow it to have a really long life. Devs will just have to avoid the boredom to come. (expanding world, new pve content, new open world mechanics, new systems, etc etc). And because the "roadmap" on wiki says there will be patch and expansion...
Also, you speak about a problem where combat tracker is only a really small part of problem... Most guides about MMORPG you find on the game, even explaining "secret features" are from people sharing experience, and working together to find solutions, understanding on subject where data tracker have no use. This problem is far more vast than data analysis.
This thread has really only discussed in detail one issues raised about DPS meters and left some of the other issues unaddressed. To me, one other significant issue a DPS meter has the potential to incur is the accelerated knowledge that comes from the interpretation of the information that would otherwise have taken hours upon hours of multiple tries and collective knowledge to obtain.
This has been discussed in the thread - it's such a short thread I'm surprise you missed it.
Basically, what the discussion boiled down to is this - those that want to progress quickly (whether that is in content or in knowledge) will do so, and those that don't want to will not do so. A combat tracker will not alter things for those that do not want to progress so quickly.
If you assume that any Intrepid sanctioned combat tracker in Ashes were to be built in to the games client, set as a possible guild perk and only worked on members of the same guild, then those that don't want that speed of progression simply don't have it.
If this were how things were to be set, those wanting this knowledge faster will have the ability to do so, and those not wanting to progress that fast will have the ability to not do so.
In other games, this doesn't work as if a combat tracker exists for the game, no one really has any reason to not use it unless they have absolutely no interest in playing the game in an effective manner. As such, anyone that is grouping can be reasonably expected to be using one (don't waste my time joining my group if you aren't interested in being effective in your role).
The reason this would work (assuming implemented as discussed in this thread) is because only people in guilds with the combat tracker selected as a perk will have access to it, those whose guild selected other perks instead simply do not have access to it, an so can't be expected to be using one.
If a majority of the players in the game straight up don't have any access to combat data, this only leaves people passing on information to them as a means to speed up their understanding of the game - and so it would in fact go much slower for them than it would if Ashes just had a third party tracker (which it already has).
However, you have kind of skirted the reason why it is important to have combat trackers here - probably without realizing.
While it is perfectly fair to say those people that want to progress slower should be able to do so, it is equally fair to say those that want to learn as much about the game as they can as quickly as they can should also be able to do so.
It is clearly not a good idea for a game publisher to hand out bans if people do not wish to progress their character at a certain minimum speed, or to learn the game as a player at a minimum speed. That is something I would never suggest could be a good idea.
Equally, it is not a good idea for a game publisher to hand out bans of people do wish to progress their character faster, or to learn the game as a player faster.
Right now, that second scenario is the scenario that Intrepid have opted for (they will not be effective at it, but it is their current policy).
Clearly, that is absolutely bullshit, and no sane player should let that stand.
However, we should be advocating for the above to not stand, but in a way where combat trackers are not forced down everyones throat, where those that want to progress at a slower pace can do so, without those around them trying to hurry them along all the time.
Again, this is why the guild based tracker works. As long as people play with likeminded people, those that want a combat tracker will have access to it. but won't be able to use it on those that are not in their guild. Those that do not want a combat tracker will be in a guild that doesn't have it, and as such literally no one is able to use a tracker on them.
This is the only way to allow both groups to exist - and that is why this thread is as long as it is. If Intrepid outright enable trackers, the group of players that don't want to have them shoved in their face don't have a game to play. If Intrepid ban players for using them, the players that want to learn the games systems and understand things don't have a game.
Without a middle-of-the-road solution, one group or the other simply doesn't have a game here - fortunately there is a middle-of-the-road solution, if Intrepid decided to take it.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Personally, I am not a fan of them but equally they are unlikely to affect me as I am likely not in the category of needing one.
Not a fan as I prefer old school learning and gaining experience through trial and error, but I appreciate not everyone is up for that and Not a fan if it means that the playable content gets run through quicker than might have otherwise and lead to population depletion. Not much more..
I haven`t followed this thread intently, it has been a little long..and it has surprised me that for a select few the passion of those for and against has not waivered. I`m impressed.
What I am up for though is for having elements of the game gated and obtainable through certain avenues.
Gated areas to top players
Gated elements only achievable to mayors or guild leaders
Gated elements to certain classes etc.
I had not noticed the guild comment before, or at least that had not sunk in.
I don`t mind trackings being gated and/or a perk of say a guild leader of a guild of particular size, longevity and/or achievements and perhaps maintained. Provides goals and rewards.
I would prefer it to be something that is NDA shareable online but can be discussed if that is plausible.
Personally, I am not a fan of them but equally they are unlikely to affect me as I am likely not in the category of needing one.
Not a fan as I prefer old school learning and gaining experience through trial and error, but I appreciate not everyone is up for that and Not a fan if it means that the playable content gets run through quicker than might have otherwise and lead to population depletion. Not much more..
I haven`t followed this thread intently, it has been a little long..and it has surprised me that for a select few the passion of those for and against has not waivered. I`m impressed.
What I am up for though is for having elements of the game gated and obtainable through certain avenues.
Gated areas to top players
Gated elements only achievable to mayors or guild leaders
Gated elements to certain classes etc.
I had not noticed the guild comment before, or at least that had not sunk in.
I don`t mind trackings being gated and/or a perk of say a guild leader of a guild of particular size, longevity and/or achievements and perhaps maintained. Provides goals and rewards.
I would prefer it to be something that is NDA shareable online but can be discussed if that is plausible.
To be perfectly honest, I would argue for your right top play the game without being subject to combat trackers just as hard as I have argued for others rights to be able to use them if they wish to do so.
That is why the suggestion of the guild based system came in to being - it is the only way I can think of to arrive at a situation where people that don't want to use one are able to do as they desire, and people that do want to use one are able to do as they desire.
I would be more than happy to have any other system that achieved the same goal, if anyone came up with another system.
So far most people i met that are against meters want meters gone universaly, because they believe that their absence "levels" the playing field for them and not only that, but they are mostly glad that they were able to "prevent" minmaxing the game
Most of the toxicity "from" meters is due to the fact that people that are not prepared for a certain content are attempting to join groups that have higher standards and when they don't meet the standards then they are outraged that those people don't want to play with them
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2021
Nope. Most people who don't want DPS meters simply don't care about the meta.
They are willing to accept failures as they work to find a successful strategy for the people currently in the group. The outrage is more often about friends getting kicked than it is for personally getting kicked.
Nope. Most people who don't want DPS meters simply don't care about the meta.
They are willing to accept failures as they work to find a successful strategy for the people currently in the group. The outrage is more often about friends getting kicked than it is for personally getting kicked.
But you care about the original meta of the game, tank is tank and fighter is only a damage dealer. So you care about the meta, but you don't care about improving that meta.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2021
Tank is tank is not the most efficient tactics available.
Fighter is not only a damage dealer.
It is if you want it to be the only tactic available
I beg you to write something that is actually not denying objective wide-spread known facts
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2021
I don't even know what you mean by wanting it to be the only tactic available.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In this specific case, optimization is the death of creativity. Hardcore people will find a way, everyone else can have a good time. Besides, if you look at the stats of each member of your party you should have a decent idea whether they are strong enough to perform their role in a given raid or dungeon.
In this specific case, optimization is the death of creativity. Hardcore people will find a way, everyone else can have a good time. Besides, if you look at the stats of each member of your party you should have a decent idea whether they are strong enough to perform their role in a given raid or dungeon.
By saying "Besides, if you look at the stats of each member of your party you should have a decent idea whether they are strong enough to perform their role in a given raid" you just prove that you have never ever played a MMO on a high level. Gear, or stats is not a good indicator on how good a player will preform. Yes it may show that a certain player have played the game and is invested in the game and that player will have the opportunity to preform well.
A good player that want to play on a high level also needs good game awareness, good knowledge of his or hers class and the raid mechanics.
Gear isn't everything.
As you may noticed, i only speak of the top procent of players of which the combat tracker discussion is relevant.
In this specific case, optimization is the death of creativity. Hardcore people will find a way, everyone else can have a good time. Besides, if you look at the stats of each member of your party you should have a decent idea whether they are strong enough to perform their role in a given raid or dungeon.
I also want to say that combat trackers and factual data will trigger a lot of peoples imagination and creativity. Just look at the druid feral community in wow classic. They look at everything and test everything just so they can make somewhat decent DPS xD
They know that they will never top the DPS meters in a top guild, but they damn try to.
Without combat trackers peoples imagination will just be lost in the sea of everyone else's imagination. With combat trackers you can factual prove that your creativity and imagination actually works and may be the knew meta.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2021
You can factually prove that your creativity and imagination actually work by defeating the encounter without combat trackers.
You can factually prove that your creativity and imagination actually work by defeating the encounter without combat trackers.
You can factually prove that your creativity and imagination actually work by defeating the encounter with a combat tracker, as well.
The only way you are not using creativity and imagination in killing a raid encounter is if you get assistance from someone else that has already killed it - that has nothing to do with combat trackers.
Because there are times when the content is so stupidly easy that he gets carried even though the raid would have been faster without that guy - which sadly creates a wrong impression that he is doing things right and thus never tries to actually improve
The thing is that many games already have a damage log, it should be easy for them to implement an easy display for it. They can make it person specific (no one can see the dmg from other people except when you are the group leader).
DPS meters have a place in games in my opinion, as long as you dont get isolated because you do mediocre dmg. Group/Raid leaders need dps meters to weed out the weak (people who dont carry their own weight if you know what i mean aka those that dont even do mediocre dmg and bring nothing else to the table)
How about if you can opt in to let your stats show on other people’s screen?
And a secondary suggestion would be to display the average damage across the server of that class on the meter. That way you would know if the DPs of the player was actually mediocre or just weak.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The meaning of "being carried" is to be contributing way below the expected minimum
The best way to look at it is as follows:
If everyone in the team would contribute the same amount as the one person being carried then there is a big possibility that you won't be able to clear the raid/dungeon at all
What entitles you to not contribute to the team above the expected minimum?
Comments
A meta will always exist in some form in all games.
These two facts are unavoidable due to human nature. Excluding some way to parse combat logs does not prevent either of these things happening, it simply makes the job of assessing your own performance more difficult.
I'm not a top player, but I do like to understand how my actions in game during combat relate to real world performance. How else am I meant to understand the impact of my gearing and build choices? For a lot of people it's not about simply finding what's "best", it's about having the ability to optimise and understand the choices you make and how they impact what you're able to do.
Talking more from a group perspective as a guild leader or officer, I like to understand where weak links exist so that I can resolve problems. These weak links may be down to player skill of course, but they may also be down to the choices we make while our characters grow or simply down to class differences. Being able to see these things allows guild leaders to customise group composition to fit their guilds' desired goals. Any guild with even the smallest hint of competitiveness will want the ability to do this.
While I appreciate and understand the stated design goal of "every tank class can tank every encounter" the fact remains that one of them will be the best. There will be advantages and disadvantages to each (hopefully on an encounter by encounter basis) but one will always stand out. I would be far, far more worried if this wasn't the case as at that point we have reached class homogeneity, rendering personal choices obsolete. Why make certain choices if at the end of the game everything is equal and the only difference is in the colour of your armour or the shape of your weapon?
In summary, I appreciate the downsides of making certain data available to players and those cannot be ignored. However, they should not be ignored at the cost of allowing players access to the information they need to improve their play and make informed choices about how to build their character.
Here you prove that you don't know what remove means, you don't know what reduce means and you don't know what literally means.
So... further discussion with you is pointless.
If you think a dps meter causes toxicity, you are in the wrong guild (join my guild, I'll prove it). Stop thinking that a dps meter will create toxicity in random groups. It's not a thing in AoC. You don't get to sit in town 24/7 and play with a group finder. I've never had dps issues from guildees because I help them. If you aren't willing to help someone else to achieve a common goal, you don't need to be playing mmorpgs. I don't even want a dps meter but if it is in the game, I would use it. Keep this shit professional so the community doesn't turn into a heaping pile of Activision-Blizzard.
Ladies and gentlemen here we have a prime example of a person that has extremely underdeveloped logical thinking. So let's show how my statement is actually true:
"reducing toxicity" is a process of shrinking the % of player to player interactions that are toxic up to 0%
"removing toxicity" is a process of removing toxic player to player interactions that has an effect of reducing the overall toxic player to player interactions count
So you have 2 descriptions or "labels" of the exact same process - which actually is the best usage for the phrase "literally the same"
The only difference I acknowledge is that both statements imply a different perception, because human mind views the word "removing" as more harsh than "reducing"
So please, when you find yourself in a discussion with this forum poster, please refrain from expecting any logical argumentation, because the said forum poster is unable to process it
― Plato
I liked this quote. I also like how your post reads like it could be the last post in the thread.
The perfectly worded ending.
Yet... see you in another 86 pages.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I get it - but if you are a gameplay guy and not an exposition guy then you don't really care how beautiful it looks, how the economy looks like, how the quest system works or how the node systems even work - because all of that is just world exposition
How it feels to control your character, what things you can do with your builds, what challenges you can do with your character - that is gameplay - and I can't in good conscience talk about the control of your character when I don't have alfa, can't talk about builds since it is mostly just preview of few things with some placeholders and the rest planned for future alfa stages
― Plato
This, to me, the knowledge shortens playability of a game and threatens its longevity.
In one of Jahon`s videos, he explained how his partner had an average character but after review of her DPS he was able to change her strategy and take her from mid game to end game playability.
If this approach is permitted, then the mid game players get pushed to end game and the field is no longer a range of capabilities.
I don`t see a solution for this other that what has already been suggested will be implemented.
But then again, way back, I recall playing RPG`s and there was no internet to fall back on, or others to consult with and I had to just work it out and that is what made the achievements so much more meaning full.
Whereas nowadays, get stuck for more than 5min, and it is way too tempting to just do a quick forum search, watch a youtube video or post a question and you are provided the solution on a platter and can get back into it. A great medium has become the death of effort and reward.
The unfortunate workaound I see is this then falls back on the developers to increase and keep increasing (at considerable cost and time) the sophistication of the game dynamics. And that cost and time, I would imagine is exponential.
Easy to learn, hard to master...
And there is some really good game where knowledge increase its longevity. The more you know the game, the more you play it. This is the specificity of roguelite, but we can also see this in different form in solo RPG (where there is a natural end) and if it exist for solo RPG, so it is for MMORPG where there is no end
example of games not roguelite where the more you know, the more you realise you did low part of game and want to do more : souls game, many metroid vania. Fallout 1/2/new vegas where you replay.
If a MMORPG got shorten a lot because people have combat tracker, this is the game design the problem. . . If people got bored before they killed end game content 1 years ago and have nothing more to do, it is not combat tracker, sharing advice and information or anything the problem, but the game design...
And also, it is another game design problem : longevity = end... MMORPG = never ending game
And if one thing can have a "endless" longevity it is a faction vs faction system MMORPG, The PvE can have a end, but a well made PvP MMORPG will never get an end. (you can get bored after doing 10k hours of pvp, but not for this you got "the end" )
FFXIV game mechanics didnt change from ARR, we know them extremly well. They didnt need to add more sophistication, increase difficulty of class gameplay. And this is a PvE game... (with worst PvP for a mmorpg) They just have to continue to produce PvE content. (then comes the vertical problems). This is the same for its big brother, FFXI. People understood quite early most system mechanics.
If they manage to create a good gameplay, with the "easy to learn, hard to master" logic, the simple fact the game is PvP will allow it to have a really long life. Devs will just have to avoid the boredom to come. (expanding world, new pve content, new open world mechanics, new systems, etc etc). And because the "roadmap" on wiki says there will be patch and expansion...
Also, you speak about a problem where combat tracker is only a really small part of problem... Most guides about MMORPG you find on the game, even explaining "secret features" are from people sharing experience, and working together to find solutions, understanding on subject where data tracker have no use. This problem is far more vast than data analysis.
Basically, what the discussion boiled down to is this - those that want to progress quickly (whether that is in content or in knowledge) will do so, and those that don't want to will not do so. A combat tracker will not alter things for those that do not want to progress so quickly.
If you assume that any Intrepid sanctioned combat tracker in Ashes were to be built in to the games client, set as a possible guild perk and only worked on members of the same guild, then those that don't want that speed of progression simply don't have it.
If this were how things were to be set, those wanting this knowledge faster will have the ability to do so, and those not wanting to progress that fast will have the ability to not do so.
In other games, this doesn't work as if a combat tracker exists for the game, no one really has any reason to not use it unless they have absolutely no interest in playing the game in an effective manner. As such, anyone that is grouping can be reasonably expected to be using one (don't waste my time joining my group if you aren't interested in being effective in your role).
The reason this would work (assuming implemented as discussed in this thread) is because only people in guilds with the combat tracker selected as a perk will have access to it, those whose guild selected other perks instead simply do not have access to it, an so can't be expected to be using one.
If a majority of the players in the game straight up don't have any access to combat data, this only leaves people passing on information to them as a means to speed up their understanding of the game - and so it would in fact go much slower for them than it would if Ashes just had a third party tracker (which it already has).
However, you have kind of skirted the reason why it is important to have combat trackers here - probably without realizing.
While it is perfectly fair to say those people that want to progress slower should be able to do so, it is equally fair to say those that want to learn as much about the game as they can as quickly as they can should also be able to do so.
It is clearly not a good idea for a game publisher to hand out bans if people do not wish to progress their character at a certain minimum speed, or to learn the game as a player at a minimum speed. That is something I would never suggest could be a good idea.
Equally, it is not a good idea for a game publisher to hand out bans of people do wish to progress their character faster, or to learn the game as a player faster.
Right now, that second scenario is the scenario that Intrepid have opted for (they will not be effective at it, but it is their current policy).
Clearly, that is absolutely bullshit, and no sane player should let that stand.
However, we should be advocating for the above to not stand, but in a way where combat trackers are not forced down everyones throat, where those that want to progress at a slower pace can do so, without those around them trying to hurry them along all the time.
Again, this is why the guild based tracker works. As long as people play with likeminded people, those that want a combat tracker will have access to it. but won't be able to use it on those that are not in their guild. Those that do not want a combat tracker will be in a guild that doesn't have it, and as such literally no one is able to use a tracker on them.
This is the only way to allow both groups to exist - and that is why this thread is as long as it is. If Intrepid outright enable trackers, the group of players that don't want to have them shoved in their face don't have a game to play. If Intrepid ban players for using them, the players that want to learn the games systems and understand things don't have a game.
Without a middle-of-the-road solution, one group or the other simply doesn't have a game here - fortunately there is a middle-of-the-road solution, if Intrepid decided to take it.
Not a fan as I prefer old school learning and gaining experience through trial and error, but I appreciate not everyone is up for that and Not a fan if it means that the playable content gets run through quicker than might have otherwise and lead to population depletion. Not much more..
I haven`t followed this thread intently, it has been a little long..and it has surprised me that for a select few the passion of those for and against has not waivered. I`m impressed.
What I am up for though is for having elements of the game gated and obtainable through certain avenues.
Gated areas to top players
Gated elements only achievable to mayors or guild leaders
Gated elements to certain classes etc.
I had not noticed the guild comment before, or at least that had not sunk in.
I don`t mind trackings being gated and/or a perk of say a guild leader of a guild of particular size, longevity and/or achievements and perhaps maintained. Provides goals and rewards.
I would prefer it to be something that is NDA shareable online but can be discussed if that is plausible.
To be perfectly honest, I would argue for your right top play the game without being subject to combat trackers just as hard as I have argued for others rights to be able to use them if they wish to do so.
That is why the suggestion of the guild based system came in to being - it is the only way I can think of to arrive at a situation where people that don't want to use one are able to do as they desire, and people that do want to use one are able to do as they desire.
I would be more than happy to have any other system that achieved the same goal, if anyone came up with another system.
Most of the toxicity "from" meters is due to the fact that people that are not prepared for a certain content are attempting to join groups that have higher standards and when they don't meet the standards then they are outraged that those people don't want to play with them
― Plato
They are willing to accept failures as they work to find a successful strategy for the people currently in the group. The outrage is more often about friends getting kicked than it is for personally getting kicked.
But you care about the original meta of the game, tank is tank and fighter is only a damage dealer. So you care about the meta, but you don't care about improving that meta.
Fighter is not only a damage dealer.
I beg you to write something that is actually not denying objective wide-spread known facts
― Plato
By saying "Besides, if you look at the stats of each member of your party you should have a decent idea whether they are strong enough to perform their role in a given raid" you just prove that you have never ever played a MMO on a high level. Gear, or stats is not a good indicator on how good a player will preform. Yes it may show that a certain player have played the game and is invested in the game and that player will have the opportunity to preform well.
A good player that want to play on a high level also needs good game awareness, good knowledge of his or hers class and the raid mechanics.
Gear isn't everything.
As you may noticed, i only speak of the top procent of players of which the combat tracker discussion is relevant.
I also want to say that combat trackers and factual data will trigger a lot of peoples imagination and creativity. Just look at the druid feral community in wow classic. They look at everything and test everything just so they can make somewhat decent DPS xD
They know that they will never top the DPS meters in a top guild, but they damn try to.
Without combat trackers peoples imagination will just be lost in the sea of everyone else's imagination. With combat trackers you can factual prove that your creativity and imagination actually works and may be the knew meta.
You can factually prove that your creativity and imagination actually work by defeating the encounter with a combat tracker, as well.
The only way you are not using creativity and imagination in killing a raid encounter is if you get assistance from someone else that has already killed it - that has nothing to do with combat trackers.
It was the last post for a little while. I checked back and thought.....Hell yeah I freaking DID IT! Yeah no, short lived.
Unless you get carried and don't realise it.
Every time I see the words "YOU DON'T PAY MY SUB!", I think...
How many carries? How many times did this player get carried without realizing it. To be so entitled.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
― Plato
How about if you can opt in to let your stats show on other people’s screen?
And a secondary suggestion would be to display the average damage across the server of that class on the meter. That way you would know if the DPs of the player was actually mediocre or just weak.
2: It's a team effort, so individuals being carried doesn't necessarily matter. That's part of being a team.
The best way to look at it is as follows:
If everyone in the team would contribute the same amount as the one person being carried then there is a big possibility that you won't be able to clear the raid/dungeon at all
What entitles you to not contribute to the team above the expected minimum?
― Plato