If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time.
A combat tracker will not do this.
Players will do this regardless.
Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions.
They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have.
If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things.
Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that.
So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic.
That isn't really how it all works.
If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish.
Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve.
In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you.
The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that.
In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why.
You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising.
People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic.
If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you.
This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic).
The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can.
When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters.
The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community.
If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality.
"Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows:
Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay.
Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress.
Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis."
Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out.
If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc.
As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community.
DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking.
It also say
"In TBC, most classes and specializations have unique buffs and debuffs that can help their party (Bloodlust IconBloodlust) or even the whole raid (Blessing of Salvation IconBlessing of Salvation).
This means that, besides individual class balance, you also need to take into account the buffs and debuffs each specialization brings in order to have a solid composition for all kinds of group content."
It also give you options, 5-8 healers, 14-18 DPS. It doesn't state that you need exactly 5 healers. It's up to you and your group to decide.
And, just because the game doesn't officially support DPS meter or combat trackers doesn't mean the community isn't hardcore and want to push times and be efficient. Just took att ff14. DPS meter and combat trackers aren't allowed, but some how people still push for world first??
And a raidleader takes out a raid first by classes to get all the buffs he or she wants. He don't care about DPS or healing at first, that comes after he have filled it with shamans, paladins, druids, warlocks and hunters to get all the buffs. Then he fills it out with high preforming DPS or healers. But this is just for hardcore guilds.
Normal guild always bring the player over the class. You just have never tried to join a guild with your mindset, or you try to join guilds that preform and expect more than you ever can.
Some people can play a game 8-12 hours a day, and one people can only play 2-3. So we all have different ground rules that will determine what guild we can join. A person that can only play 1-3 hours a day will have a very hard time to join a hardcore guild that push world first and are seen as the best guild on the server.
If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time.
A combat tracker will not do this.
Players will do this regardless.
Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions.
They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have.
If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things.
Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that.
So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic.
That isn't really how it all works.
If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish.
Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve.
In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you.
The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that.
In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why.
You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising.
People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic.
If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you.
This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic).
The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can.
When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters.
The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community.
If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality.
"Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows:
Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay.
Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress.
Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis."
Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out.
If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc.
As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community.
DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking.
It also say
"In TBC, most classes and specializations have unique buffs and debuffs that can help their party (Bloodlust IconBloodlust) or even the whole raid (Blessing of Salvation IconBlessing of Salvation).
This means that, besides individual class balance, you also need to take into account the buffs and debuffs each specialization brings in order to have a solid composition for all kinds of group content."
It also give you options, 5-8 healers, 14-18 DPS. It doesn't state that you need exactly 5 healers. It's up to you and your group to decide.
And, just because the game doesn't officially support DPS meter or combat trackers doesn't mean the community isn't hardcore and want to push times and be efficient. Just took att ff14. DPS meter and combat trackers aren't allowed, but some how people still push for world first??
Thanks for proving my point.
When DPS meters and combat trackers aren't allowed people still push for world first and have fun in that. So there is no need for DPS meters and combat trackers even for those players who want to push themselves. So we don't need DPS meters and combat trackers at all. Adding DPS meters and combat trackers or not adding is irrelevant even when pursing goals such as pushing times. Players will do it anyway. So we don't need them to push for time or to have fun. This means they are just tools that when added mostly just contribute to being used to create toxicity in a community.
If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time.
A combat tracker will not do this.
Players will do this regardless.
Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions.
They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have.
If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things.
Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that.
So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic.
That isn't really how it all works.
If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish.
Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve.
In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you.
The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that.
In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why.
You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising.
People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic.
If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you.
This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic).
The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can.
When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters.
The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community.
If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality.
"Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows:
Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay.
Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress.
Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis."
Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out.
If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc.
As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community.
DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking.
It also say
"In TBC, most classes and specializations have unique buffs and debuffs that can help their party (Bloodlust IconBloodlust) or even the whole raid (Blessing of Salvation IconBlessing of Salvation).
This means that, besides individual class balance, you also need to take into account the buffs and debuffs each specialization brings in order to have a solid composition for all kinds of group content."
It also give you options, 5-8 healers, 14-18 DPS. It doesn't state that you need exactly 5 healers. It's up to you and your group to decide.
And, just because the game doesn't officially support DPS meter or combat trackers doesn't mean the community isn't hardcore and want to push times and be efficient. Just took att ff14. DPS meter and combat trackers aren't allowed, but some how people still push for world first??
Thanks for proving my point.
When DPS meters and combat trackers aren't allowed people still push for world first and have fun in that. So there is no need for DPS meters and combat trackers even for those players who want to push themselves. So we don't need DPS meters and combat trackers at all. Adding DPS meters and combat trackers or not adding is irrelevant even when pursing goals such as pushing times. Players will do it anyway. So we don't need them to push for time or to have fun. This means they are just tools that when added mostly just contribute to being used to create toxicity in a community.
FF14 also have combat trackers, the developers knows it but don't really care. Just as long player doesn't get toxic about them, PLAYERS, not DPS meter, if players get toxic.
The reason I mentioned FF14 is because people will always push times and try to be efficient, not matter if the games support combat trackers or not. They will just get a third party software to help them, which is not hacking, since hacking implies that you are steeling something you do not own/or have the right to see. So that is all fine and good, but that means you need to know about this third party software. Having it in game and officially support will help everyone that tried to push them self or just want to test something new
If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time.
A combat tracker will not do this.
Players will do this regardless.
Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions.
They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have.
If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things.
Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that.
So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic.
That isn't really how it all works.
If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish.
Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve.
In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you.
The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that.
In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why.
You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising.
People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic.
If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you.
This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic).
The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can.
When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters.
The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community.
If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality.
"Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows:
Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay.
Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress.
Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis."
Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out.
If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc.
As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community.
DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking.
It also say
"In TBC, most classes and specializations have unique buffs and debuffs that can help their party (Bloodlust IconBloodlust) or even the whole raid (Blessing of Salvation IconBlessing of Salvation).
This means that, besides individual class balance, you also need to take into account the buffs and debuffs each specialization brings in order to have a solid composition for all kinds of group content."
It also give you options, 5-8 healers, 14-18 DPS. It doesn't state that you need exactly 5 healers. It's up to you and your group to decide.
And, just because the game doesn't officially support DPS meter or combat trackers doesn't mean the community isn't hardcore and want to push times and be efficient. Just took att ff14. DPS meter and combat trackers aren't allowed, but some how people still push for world first??
Thanks for proving my point.
When DPS meters and combat trackers aren't allowed people still push for world first and have fun in that. So there is no need for DPS meters and combat trackers even for those players who want to push themselves. So we don't need DPS meters and combat trackers at all. Adding DPS meters and combat trackers or not adding is irrelevant even when pursing goals such as pushing times. Players will do it anyway. So we don't need them to push for time or to have fun. This means they are just tools that when added mostly just contribute to being used to create toxicity in a community.
FF14 also have combat trackers, the developers knows it but don't really care. Just as long player doesn't get toxic about them, PLAYERS, not DPS meter, if players get toxic.
The reason I mentioned FF14 is because people will always push times and try to be efficient, not matter if the games support combat trackers or not. They will just get a third party software to help them. That is all fine and good, but that means you need to know about this third party software. Having it in game and officially support will help everyone that tried to push them self or just want to test something new
Thanks again for proving my point. You just said that by banning DPS meters and combat trackers the game has reduced toxicity thanks to the fact that they are banned and developers can monitor for DPS meter and combat trackers and intervene when toxicity occurs.
So this means that Intrepid should ban DPS meters and Combat trackers because this will give a best of both of worlds type of result - Players who want them to experiment can still use them but they have to be third party and the players have to keep conversations that include these tools civil and quiet in order to avoid detection by developers. So this means that by banning DPS meters and combat trackers makes it so that those tools can't be used by players to create toxicity and at the same time it's still possible for these tools to be used by honest and ethical players who want to only use them as a tool to experiment. Best of both worlds.
If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time.
A combat tracker will not do this.
Players will do this regardless.
Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions.
They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have.
If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things.
Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that.
So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic.
That isn't really how it all works.
If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish.
Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve.
In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you.
The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that.
In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why.
You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising.
People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic.
If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you.
This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic).
The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can.
When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters.
The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community.
If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality.
"Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows:
Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay.
Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress.
Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis."
Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out.
If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc.
As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community.
DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking.
It also say
"In TBC, most classes and specializations have unique buffs and debuffs that can help their party (Bloodlust IconBloodlust) or even the whole raid (Blessing of Salvation IconBlessing of Salvation).
This means that, besides individual class balance, you also need to take into account the buffs and debuffs each specialization brings in order to have a solid composition for all kinds of group content."
It also give you options, 5-8 healers, 14-18 DPS. It doesn't state that you need exactly 5 healers. It's up to you and your group to decide.
And, just because the game doesn't officially support DPS meter or combat trackers doesn't mean the community isn't hardcore and want to push times and be efficient. Just took att ff14. DPS meter and combat trackers aren't allowed, but some how people still push for world first??
Thanks for proving my point.
When DPS meters and combat trackers aren't allowed people still push for world first and have fun in that. So there is no need for DPS meters and combat trackers even for those players who want to push themselves. So we don't need DPS meters and combat trackers at all. Adding DPS meters and combat trackers or not adding is irrelevant even when pursing goals such as pushing times. Players will do it anyway. So we don't need them to push for time or to have fun. This means they are just tools that when added mostly just contribute to being used to create toxicity in a community.
FF14 also have combat trackers, the developers knows it but don't really care. Just as long player doesn't get toxic about them, PLAYERS, not DPS meter, if players get toxic.
The reason I mentioned FF14 is because people will always push times and try to be efficient, not matter if the games support combat trackers or not. They will just get a third party software to help them. That is all fine and good, but that means you need to know about this third party software. Having it in game and officially support will help everyone that tried to push them self or just want to test something new
Thanks again for proving my point. You just said that by banning DPS meters and combat trackers the game has reduced toxicity thanks to the fact that they are banned and developers can monitor for DPS meter and combat trackers and intervene when toxicity occurs.
So this means that Intrepid should ban DPS meters and Combat trackers because this will give a best of both of worlds type of result - Players who want them to experiment can still use them but they have to be third party and the players have to keep conversations that include these tools civil and quiet in order to avoid detection by developers. So this means that by banning DPS meters and combat trackers makes it so that those tools can't be used by players to create toxicity and at the same time it's still possible for these tools to be used by honest and ethical players who want to only use them as a tool to experiment. Best of both worlds.
No, that's not what I said. They ban people if they ever complain about someone. You can use DPS meter or combat trackers as much as you want, you just can't get toxic about people not preforming or doing they way you want them to do it. I think it's would be great if Intrepid banned people for being toxic about DPS or HPS or similar, that just bad behavior.
FF14 has meter and guides just like wow, but generally FF14 has a much better community because of the way the game is played. You will 100% find toxic players if you clash with people with a different mind set, the difference is that toxicity is looked down on and very much discouraged.
I have had toxic experiences om FF14, a guy got extremely mad because some people didn't know the mechanics. So you will find toxicity every where.
If the game doesn't support combat trackers directly in-game it will be much more difficult to improve and see what exactly you are doing. You wouldn't have to download some third part software and go through a number of steps just to see your DPS, hps, applied buffs/debuffs uptime or more. You could just click a button in-game and see it much easier. This enables casual players to defend themselves from toxic players and also learn what they need to improve on, if they want to.
Yes, ban people that are bing toxic douchebags, but support combat trackers to not only help hardcore player but also casual players that would like to improve in their own pace.
and at the same time it's still possible for these tools to be used by honest and ethical players who want to only use them as a tool to experiment.
Thanks for proving my point that DPS meter and combat trackers are not toxic, it's the interaction between two people with different views that can become toxic.
imagine if the already confirmed combat log also had confirmed advanced filters, search and position tracking with a replay option to even go step by step (and choosing steps)
imagine if the already confirmed combat log also had confirmed advanced filters, search and position tracking with a replay option to even go step by step (and choosing steps)
imo this thread would have been long dead
Add some graphs on to that, along with it being a log for your group or raid, and you have a deal!
imagine if the already confirmed combat log also had confirmed advanced filters, search and position tracking with a replay option to even go step by step (and choosing steps)
imo this thread would have been long dead
I knew about the personal combat log, but thought it was one of those standard scrolling text once.
Can you link to this confirmed advanced combat tracker?
imagine if the already confirmed combat log also had confirmed advanced filters, search and position tracking with a replay option to even go step by step (and choosing steps)
imo this thread would have been long dead
"We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves"
If this is what you mean then it doesn't sound that great. Combat information in your chest window will be very very very limited.
I ask again, what experience have you had with MMOs that gave you this view on combat trackers?
Of what relevance is this? Why do you ask again when you said "If I may ask"? If I didn't answer it's obviously because I didn't want to because I know that when I answer my answer will be used for a toxic reply.
I find it strange that FF14 monitors for toxicity and bans players merely for toxicity especially toxicity which is borderline "helping" because the player states that he isn't being toxic he is merely "helping" the others to learn to play the game by referring to the ingame DPS meter. I haven't played FF14 but it sounds like they took a very hard rule approach to toxicity. Seems they ban toxic people even when they have excuses to be toxic which is good but that's a very hard crack down approach and I haven't experienced any company be like this before. If its possible - go ahead and do that but I doubt it's possible because then the guy being toxic can say "I am not toxic. He is toxic for failing to use the builtin DPS meter in the game. He is forcing me to play his way. He is toxic!". Then they can't ban anyone and the player who doesn't want to use a DPS meter but merely wants to enjoy the MMORPG is excluded and left to play alone in a massively online multiplayer game.
Banning dps meters and combat trackers removes the excuse of toxic people I am talking about thus it helps bring down the toxicity while also allowing the players who really want to use a DPS meter or combat tracker to do so but to do it quietly and civilly.
I've played 3 years Guild wars series, 8 years WoW, 6 months of BDO and some other MMOs who failed to capture my interest for longer than a month.
I ask again, what experience have you had with MMOs that gave you this view on combat trackers?
Of what relevance is this? Why do you ask again when you said "If I may ask"? If I didn't answer it's obviously because I didn't want to because I know that when I answer my answer will be used for a toxic reply.
I find it strange that FF14 monitors for toxicity and bans players merely for toxicity especially toxicity which is borderline "helping" because the player states that he isn't being toxic he is merely "helping" the others to learn to play the game by referring to the ingame DPS meter. I haven't played FF14 but it sounds like they took a very hard rule approach to toxicity. Seems they ban toxic people even when they have excuses to be toxic which is good but that's a very hard crack down approach and I haven't experienced any company be like this before. If its possible - go ahead and do that but I doubt it's possible because then the guy being toxic can say "I am not toxic. He is toxic for failing to use the builtin DPS meter in the game. He is forcing me to play his way. He is toxic!". Then they can't ban anyone and the player who doesn't want to use a DPS meter but merely wants to enjoy the MMORPG is excluded and left to play alone in a massively online multiplayer game.
Banning dps meters and combat trackers removes the excuse of toxic people I am talking about thus it helps bring down the toxicity while also allowing the players who really want to use a DPS meter or combat tracker to do so but to do it quietly and civilly.
I've played 3 years Guild wars series, 8 years WoW, 6 months of BDO and some other MMOs who failed to capture my interest for longer than a month.
Okay so you have played MMOs throughout the years, and what experience and in what situation have you had a bad experience with combat trackers?
I'm not going to answer with a toxic answer, I'm just trying to understand were you are coming from since I have never experience combat trackers to be toxic.
Of you join a Pug via the group finder and a random player complains about your DPS then he is toxic. If you join a guild that have standards like prepare for raid by getting consumables and enchants or similar and you are not doing that, then you are toxic and you will most likely get kick from the guild.
It's up to the developers to keep chat clean and ban people flaming other players based on performance in a random group doing a simple dungeon or raid.
And it's up to the guild leaders to make sure guild members follow the guild rules so everyone feel welcome and that their time isn't wasted.
Then they can't ban anyone and the player who doesn't want to use a DPS meter but merely wants to enjoy the MMORPG is excluded and left to play alone in a massively online multiplayer game.
Do you know what a combat tracker does? You don't automatically get better because you have a DPS meter on the screen. Just because you don't open up the in-game combat log doesn't mean you are worse. And you will not be excluded, I know many guilds I'm classic wow tbc that are very very casual and don't care about DPS. They play im their own pace and have a very very good time. It all comes down you you finding your place in a massive multiplayer game. You don't need to focus on the hardcore aspect of the game to fit in, you will find many casual players that just like to enjoy the game.
Banning dps meters and combat trackers removes the excuse of toxic people I am talking about thus it helps bring down the toxicity while also allowing the players who really want to use a DPS meter or combat tracker to do so but to do it quietly and civilly.
Banning DPS meter and combat trackers won't remove toxic players, they will always find a way to complain (like not knowing mechanics when doing an old boss for tbe the first time). It's up to you to ignore them and find a new group with like-minded people that makes you enjoy the game.
And finding a group or a guild in AoC will be quite easy. It's a very social game and you will probably find a guild that fits you pretty easy. You can even find guilds now and start to get to know your future guildies
Rikardp98 makes valid points and has good reasoning.
Although there wont be a dungeon finder in AoC as far as I know.
Still I like Rikardp98's reasoning and after reading it I am now truly neutral as to the question if DPS meters/combat trackers should be added or not.
It's up to you to ignore them and find a new group with like-minded people that makes you enjoy the game.
Yeah, this is what I have been saying for a while.
Toxicity comes from playing with people that are not likeminded.
There is the caveat with that, in that you can play with these people just fine if you compromise and fit in as best you can with how the people you are choosing to play with want to play, but it is players trying to play with others that are not likeminded that cause issues.
Rikardp98 makes valid points and has good reasoning.
Although there wont be a dungeon finder in AoC as far as I know.
Still I like Rikardp98's reasoning and after reading it I am now truly neutral as to the question if DPS meters/combat trackers should be added or not.
Anything is fine.
I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic and toxic comment or not xD
But I take what I can get ☺️
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
DPS meter isn't just about DPS.
But, you don't need a combat tracker to tell you who is synergizing their augments and skills with other members in the party and who is doing nothing.
Pushing for speed is very much a key aspect of the toxicity of Most Efficient Tactics Available.
Pushing for speed is very much a key aspect of the toxicity of Most Efficient Tactics Available.
But combat trackers aren't what cause people to push for speed, nor what forms a games meta. Both of these exist without combat trackers.
While you may not need a combat tracker to tell you who is and isn't synergizing, you DO need one to tell you what the value of that synergy is. It may well be that it isn't worth putting any time or thought in to, in which case us players can then pass this on to Intrepid who can then fix it.
This kind of thing is exactly what combat trackers are used to identify and fix - it is too complex for developers to absolutely get right first time, or for players to be able to understand without trackers.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.
Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.
You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.
Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.
A desire to want the developers to make a balanced (aka, absolutely right) combat system is not a toxic concept.
Rikardp98 makes valid points and has good reasoning.
Although there wont be a dungeon finder in AoC as far as I know.
Still I like Rikardp98's reasoning and after reading it I am now truly neutral as to the question if DPS meters/combat trackers should be added or not.
Anything is fine.
I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic and toxic comment or not xD
You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.
Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.
You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.
Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.
A desire to want the developers to make a balanced (aka, absolutely right) combat system is not a toxic concept.
Nor is a desire to assist them in achieving that.
Dygz has a very interesting take on this that I didn't consider at first. I have a masters in Psychology which you don't need to easily check on the web if what I am about to say is true.
Dygz or at least what I am extracting from what he is saying is opening up a very interesting side to all of this and that is - Certain gaming tools like DPS meters and combat trackers can be psychologically harmful.
I'd wager he is right. It's theoretically possible that tools like DPS meters and combat trackers are harmful to perfectionists or people suffering from OCDs because these types of tools are used to optimize or in other words perfect. Perfectionists and OCD gets worse when the person suffering from it gives into it. Tools like DPS meter and combat trackers can be very tantalizing to perfectionists and OCD suffering people. Because they are tantalizing it'll be hard for these people to keep away from them. Thus it's likely they'll use them and it'll worsen their conditions. And the possible peer pressure from people inside the game will add to the chance that these people will start using the meters and trackers.
Including something like this that can be harmful to people inside your game can be troublesome legally down the line I guess due to ethical concerns that might arise after proper experimentation in labs and confirmation of theory.
As of now no such ethical concerns are legislated. So right now it's legally okay to add them. But if Intrepid are playing the long-ball and expect their game to be around after 50 years they might want to play it safe and ban these meters.
Although the chance of such legislation coming this decade and affecting the gaming sphere is very low. Also even if it does happen Intrepid might be able to protect AoC from legal problems by just adding a warning inside their game similar to the one in tobacco. Don't know if this might push the age label though. Might make the game 18+ or something just because of proven harmful effects of things inside the game. Which might be bad for sales, might not.
Anyway bottom-line Dygz is right that these tools have a possible toxic side and can be part of a toxic concept. They are not entirely innocent even if they were invented with the entirely innocent reason for experimentation.
Of course also in the end it's just a tool. No one can say tools are evil/harmful/toxic. It can't even be said about guns. Guns are tools. They aren't inherently evil. They can be used in self-defense. That would make them life-saving just as much as life-taking. It all depends on their regulation, safety procedures for use, legislation and above all the hands that use them.
You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.
Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.
You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.
Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.
A desire to want the developers to make a balanced (aka, absolutely right) combat system is not a toxic concept.
Nor is a desire to assist them in achieving that.
Dygz has a very interesting take on this that I didn't consider at first. I have a masters in Psychology which you don't need to easily check on the web if what I am about to say is true.
Dygz or at least what I am extracting from what he is saying is opening up a very interesting side to all of this and that is - Certain gaming tools like DPS meters and combat trackers can be psychologically harmful.
I'd wager he is right. It's theoretically possible that tools like DPS meters and combat trackers are harmful to perfectionists or people suffering from OCDs because these types of tools are used to optimize or in other words perfect. Perfectionists and OCD gets worse when the person suffering from it gives into it. Tools like DPS meter and combat trackers can be very tantalizing to perfectionists and OCD suffering people. Because they are tantalizing it'll be hard for these people to keep away from them. Thus it's likely they'll use them and it'll worsen their conditions. And the possible peer pressure from people inside the game will add to the chance that these people will start using the meters and trackers.
Including something like this that can be harmful to people inside your game can be troublesome legally down the line I guess due to ethical concerns that might arise after proper experimentation in labs and confirmation of theory.
As of now no such ethical concerns are legislated. So right now it's legally okay to add them. But if Intrepid are playing the long-ball and expect their game to be around after 50 years they might want to play it safe and ban these meters.
Although the chance of such legislation coming this decade and affecting the gaming sphere is very low. Also even if it does happen Intrepid might be able to protect AoC from legal problems by just adding a warning inside their game similar to the one in tobacco. Don't know if this might push the age label though. Might make the game 18+ or something just because of proven harmful effects of things inside the game. Which might be bad for sales, might not.
Anyway bottom-line Dygz is right that these tools have a possible toxic side and can be part of a toxic concept. They are not entirely innocent even if they were invented with the entirely innocent reason for experimentation.
Of course also in the end it's just a tool. No one can say tools are evil/harmful/toxic. It can't even be said about guns. Guns are tools. They aren't inherently evil. They can be used in self-defense. That would make them life-saving just as much as life-taking. It all depends on their regulation, safety procedures for use, legislation and above all the hands that use them.
A better comparison is combat trackers are like scientific facts you get from laborations and experiments. You can use what you learn to get a deeper understanding of the subject you are looking in to.
Some people don't care about scientific facts and ten to lean towards other beliefs. You have religious people, you have free spirited people like hippies, and much more. People live the way they want to live and that's the way it should be. And people play a game like they want ro play it and that's the way it should be.
Combat Track users are similar to scientist in that sense, people that strive for information and improvement based in facts.
I don't want to comment to much on people that have severe OCD or perfectionists, but that's a individual problem with that person, and it's hard to design a game based on individual problems. I do believe that games should have possible individual problems in mind, like OCD or even people with handicaps, MMOs should be for everyone so having this in mind is a good thing.
A DPS meter shouldn't be a standard part of the UI, and the combat tracker should be hidden behind a keybind.
Combat Trackers doesn't have a toxic side since it's completely neutral to any opinion, it only give facts and only facts.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2022
Combat trackers are tools; not facts.
Combat trackers are not necessary tools.
Combat trackers also are not tools that the game should provide. YoshiP has this view. Steven has this view.
It's a game design philosophy.
If the game includes DPS meters, we can expect the devs to design the game such that DPS meters will be necessary. As necessary as tools like health and mana bars.
If DPS meters are not included, we can expect that DPS meters will not be necessary. And the data they provide also will not be necessary data.
Numerical values on health bars are a great tool.
Doesn't mean they are intrinsically necessary.
Steven plans for Ashes to not have numerical values on health bars.
Which can be fine - as long as the cues for health status can be understood well enough for players to defeat challenges.
Same is true for DPS meters.
The toxicity comes from expecting everyone to rely on DPS meters.
Combat trackers are tools; not facts.
Combat trackers are not necessary tools.
Combat trackers also are not tools that the game should provide. YoshiP has this view. Steven has this view.
It's a game design philosophy.
If the game includes DPS meters, we can expect the devs to design the game such that DPS meters will be necessary. As necessary as tools like health and mana bars.
If DPS meters are not included, we can expect that DPS meters will not be necessary. And the data they provide also will not be necessary data.
Numerical values on health bars are a great tool.
Doesn't mean they are intrinsically necessary.
Steven plans for Ashes to not have numerical values on health bars.
Which can be fine - as long as the cues for health status can be understood well enough for players to defeat challenges.
Same is true for DPS meters.
The toxicity comes from expecting everyone to rely on DPS meters.
I'm sorry, combat trackers are tools that outputs facts. Similar to software that scientist use to evaluate data points.
You also make some bold statements about DPS meter being necessary to kill a boss if they exist, and that toxicity comes from everyone will be except to use the DPS meters. Both of these statements is false, or do not aline with my experience.
If combat trackers is implemented hardcore players will except other hardcore players to use it to some extent. No one will except the use of combat trackers from casual players.
Toxicity comes from clash of two people with different views, such as hardcore and casual player mind set. That doesn't mean that hardcore players and casual player can't play with each other, they very much can, but they need to accept were they stand and what they except from each other.
Comments
It also say
"In TBC, most classes and specializations have unique buffs and debuffs that can help their party (Bloodlust IconBloodlust) or even the whole raid (Blessing of Salvation IconBlessing of Salvation).
This means that, besides individual class balance, you also need to take into account the buffs and debuffs each specialization brings in order to have a solid composition for all kinds of group content."
It also give you options, 5-8 healers, 14-18 DPS. It doesn't state that you need exactly 5 healers. It's up to you and your group to decide.
And, just because the game doesn't officially support DPS meter or combat trackers doesn't mean the community isn't hardcore and want to push times and be efficient. Just took att ff14. DPS meter and combat trackers aren't allowed, but some how people still push for world first??
Normal guild always bring the player over the class. You just have never tried to join a guild with your mindset, or you try to join guilds that preform and expect more than you ever can.
Some people can play a game 8-12 hours a day, and one people can only play 2-3. So we all have different ground rules that will determine what guild we can join. A person that can only play 1-3 hours a day will have a very hard time to join a hardcore guild that push world first and are seen as the best guild on the server.
Thanks for proving my point.
When DPS meters and combat trackers aren't allowed people still push for world first and have fun in that. So there is no need for DPS meters and combat trackers even for those players who want to push themselves. So we don't need DPS meters and combat trackers at all. Adding DPS meters and combat trackers or not adding is irrelevant even when pursing goals such as pushing times. Players will do it anyway. So we don't need them to push for time or to have fun. This means they are just tools that when added mostly just contribute to being used to create toxicity in a community.
FF14 also have combat trackers, the developers knows it but don't really care. Just as long player doesn't get toxic about them, PLAYERS, not DPS meter, if players get toxic.
The reason I mentioned FF14 is because people will always push times and try to be efficient, not matter if the games support combat trackers or not. They will just get a third party software to help them, which is not hacking, since hacking implies that you are steeling something you do not own/or have the right to see. So that is all fine and good, but that means you need to know about this third party software. Having it in game and officially support will help everyone that tried to push them self or just want to test something new
Thanks again for proving my point. You just said that by banning DPS meters and combat trackers the game has reduced toxicity thanks to the fact that they are banned and developers can monitor for DPS meter and combat trackers and intervene when toxicity occurs.
So this means that Intrepid should ban DPS meters and Combat trackers because this will give a best of both of worlds type of result - Players who want them to experiment can still use them but they have to be third party and the players have to keep conversations that include these tools civil and quiet in order to avoid detection by developers. So this means that by banning DPS meters and combat trackers makes it so that those tools can't be used by players to create toxicity and at the same time it's still possible for these tools to be used by honest and ethical players who want to only use them as a tool to experiment. Best of both worlds.
No, that's not what I said. They ban people if they ever complain about someone. You can use DPS meter or combat trackers as much as you want, you just can't get toxic about people not preforming or doing they way you want them to do it. I think it's would be great if Intrepid banned people for being toxic about DPS or HPS or similar, that just bad behavior.
FF14 has meter and guides just like wow, but generally FF14 has a much better community because of the way the game is played. You will 100% find toxic players if you clash with people with a different mind set, the difference is that toxicity is looked down on and very much discouraged.
I have had toxic experiences om FF14, a guy got extremely mad because some people didn't know the mechanics. So you will find toxicity every where.
If the game doesn't support combat trackers directly in-game it will be much more difficult to improve and see what exactly you are doing. You wouldn't have to download some third part software and go through a number of steps just to see your DPS, hps, applied buffs/debuffs uptime or more. You could just click a button in-game and see it much easier. This enables casual players to defend themselves from toxic players and also learn what they need to improve on, if they want to.
Yes, ban people that are bing toxic douchebags, but support combat trackers to not only help hardcore player but also casual players that would like to improve in their own pace.
Thanks for proving my point that DPS meter and combat trackers are not toxic, it's the interaction between two people with different views that can become toxic.
imo this thread would have been long dead
― Plato
Add some graphs on to that, along with it being a log for your group or raid, and you have a deal!
I knew about the personal combat log, but thought it was one of those standard scrolling text once.
Can you link to this confirmed advanced combat tracker?
"We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves"
If this is what you mean then it doesn't sound that great. Combat information in your chest window will be very very very limited.
Of what relevance is this? Why do you ask again when you said "If I may ask"? If I didn't answer it's obviously because I didn't want to because I know that when I answer my answer will be used for a toxic reply.
I find it strange that FF14 monitors for toxicity and bans players merely for toxicity especially toxicity which is borderline "helping" because the player states that he isn't being toxic he is merely "helping" the others to learn to play the game by referring to the ingame DPS meter. I haven't played FF14 but it sounds like they took a very hard rule approach to toxicity. Seems they ban toxic people even when they have excuses to be toxic which is good but that's a very hard crack down approach and I haven't experienced any company be like this before. If its possible - go ahead and do that but I doubt it's possible because then the guy being toxic can say "I am not toxic. He is toxic for failing to use the builtin DPS meter in the game. He is forcing me to play his way. He is toxic!". Then they can't ban anyone and the player who doesn't want to use a DPS meter but merely wants to enjoy the MMORPG is excluded and left to play alone in a massively online multiplayer game.
Banning dps meters and combat trackers removes the excuse of toxic people I am talking about thus it helps bring down the toxicity while also allowing the players who really want to use a DPS meter or combat tracker to do so but to do it quietly and civilly.
I've played 3 years Guild wars series, 8 years WoW, 6 months of BDO and some other MMOs who failed to capture my interest for longer than a month.
Okay so you have played MMOs throughout the years, and what experience and in what situation have you had a bad experience with combat trackers?
I'm not going to answer with a toxic answer, I'm just trying to understand were you are coming from since I have never experience combat trackers to be toxic.
Of you join a Pug via the group finder and a random player complains about your DPS then he is toxic. If you join a guild that have standards like prepare for raid by getting consumables and enchants or similar and you are not doing that, then you are toxic and you will most likely get kick from the guild.
It's up to the developers to keep chat clean and ban people flaming other players based on performance in a random group doing a simple dungeon or raid.
And it's up to the guild leaders to make sure guild members follow the guild rules so everyone feel welcome and that their time isn't wasted.
Do you know what a combat tracker does? You don't automatically get better because you have a DPS meter on the screen. Just because you don't open up the in-game combat log doesn't mean you are worse. And you will not be excluded, I know many guilds I'm classic wow tbc that are very very casual and don't care about DPS. They play im their own pace and have a very very good time. It all comes down you you finding your place in a massive multiplayer game. You don't need to focus on the hardcore aspect of the game to fit in, you will find many casual players that just like to enjoy the game.
Banning DPS meter and combat trackers won't remove toxic players, they will always find a way to complain (like not knowing mechanics when doing an old boss for tbe the first time). It's up to you to ignore them and find a new group with like-minded people that makes you enjoy the game.
Although there wont be a dungeon finder in AoC as far as I know.
Still I like Rikardp98's reasoning and after reading it I am now truly neutral as to the question if DPS meters/combat trackers should be added or not.
Anything is fine.
Toxicity comes from playing with people that are not likeminded.
There is the caveat with that, in that you can play with these people just fine if you compromise and fit in as best you can with how the people you are choosing to play with want to play, but it is players trying to play with others that are not likeminded that cause issues.
I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic and toxic comment or not xD
But I take what I can get ☺️
But, you don't need a combat tracker to tell you who is synergizing their augments and skills with other members in the party and who is doing nothing.
Pushing for speed is very much a key aspect of the toxicity of Most Efficient Tactics Available.
While you may not need a combat tracker to tell you who is and isn't synergizing, you DO need one to tell you what the value of that synergy is. It may well be that it isn't worth putting any time or thought in to, in which case us players can then pass this on to Intrepid who can then fix it.
This kind of thing is exactly what combat trackers are used to identify and fix - it is too complex for developers to absolutely get right first time, or for players to be able to understand without trackers.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.
Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.
A desire to want the developers to make a balanced (aka, absolutely right) combat system is not a toxic concept.
Nor is a desire to assist them in achieving that.
no sarcasm
Dygz has a very interesting take on this that I didn't consider at first. I have a masters in Psychology which you don't need to easily check on the web if what I am about to say is true.
Dygz or at least what I am extracting from what he is saying is opening up a very interesting side to all of this and that is - Certain gaming tools like DPS meters and combat trackers can be psychologically harmful.
I'd wager he is right. It's theoretically possible that tools like DPS meters and combat trackers are harmful to perfectionists or people suffering from OCDs because these types of tools are used to optimize or in other words perfect. Perfectionists and OCD gets worse when the person suffering from it gives into it. Tools like DPS meter and combat trackers can be very tantalizing to perfectionists and OCD suffering people. Because they are tantalizing it'll be hard for these people to keep away from them. Thus it's likely they'll use them and it'll worsen their conditions. And the possible peer pressure from people inside the game will add to the chance that these people will start using the meters and trackers.
Including something like this that can be harmful to people inside your game can be troublesome legally down the line I guess due to ethical concerns that might arise after proper experimentation in labs and confirmation of theory.
As of now no such ethical concerns are legislated. So right now it's legally okay to add them. But if Intrepid are playing the long-ball and expect their game to be around after 50 years they might want to play it safe and ban these meters.
Although the chance of such legislation coming this decade and affecting the gaming sphere is very low. Also even if it does happen Intrepid might be able to protect AoC from legal problems by just adding a warning inside their game similar to the one in tobacco. Don't know if this might push the age label though. Might make the game 18+ or something just because of proven harmful effects of things inside the game. Which might be bad for sales, might not.
Anyway bottom-line Dygz is right that these tools have a possible toxic side and can be part of a toxic concept. They are not entirely innocent even if they were invented with the entirely innocent reason for experimentation.
Of course also in the end it's just a tool. No one can say tools are evil/harmful/toxic. It can't even be said about guns. Guns are tools. They aren't inherently evil. They can be used in self-defense. That would make them life-saving just as much as life-taking. It all depends on their regulation, safety procedures for use, legislation and above all the hands that use them.
A better comparison is combat trackers are like scientific facts you get from laborations and experiments. You can use what you learn to get a deeper understanding of the subject you are looking in to.
Some people don't care about scientific facts and ten to lean towards other beliefs. You have religious people, you have free spirited people like hippies, and much more. People live the way they want to live and that's the way it should be. And people play a game like they want ro play it and that's the way it should be.
Combat Track users are similar to scientist in that sense, people that strive for information and improvement based in facts.
A DPS meter shouldn't be a standard part of the UI, and the combat tracker should be hidden behind a keybind.
Combat Trackers doesn't have a toxic side since it's completely neutral to any opinion, it only give facts and only facts.
Combat trackers are not necessary tools.
Combat trackers also are not tools that the game should provide. YoshiP has this view. Steven has this view.
It's a game design philosophy.
If the game includes DPS meters, we can expect the devs to design the game such that DPS meters will be necessary. As necessary as tools like health and mana bars.
If DPS meters are not included, we can expect that DPS meters will not be necessary. And the data they provide also will not be necessary data.
Numerical values on health bars are a great tool.
Doesn't mean they are intrinsically necessary.
Steven plans for Ashes to not have numerical values on health bars.
Which can be fine - as long as the cues for health status can be understood well enough for players to defeat challenges.
Same is true for DPS meters.
The toxicity comes from expecting everyone to rely on DPS meters.
I'm sorry, combat trackers are tools that outputs facts. Similar to software that scientist use to evaluate data points.
You also make some bold statements about DPS meter being necessary to kill a boss if they exist, and that toxicity comes from everyone will be except to use the DPS meters. Both of these statements is false, or do not aline with my experience.
If combat trackers is implemented hardcore players will except other hardcore players to use it to some extent. No one will except the use of combat trackers from casual players.
Toxicity comes from clash of two people with different views, such as hardcore and casual player mind set. That doesn't mean that hardcore players and casual player can't play with each other, they very much can, but they need to accept were they stand and what they except from each other.