Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks.
So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc.
This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc.
Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization.
But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization.
I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me.
1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven.
2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks.
3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself.
But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare.
1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play.
2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a certain players contribution score.
3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play
I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage.
Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks.
So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc.
This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc.
Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization.
But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization.
I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me.
1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven.
2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks.
3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself.
But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare.
1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play.
2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a curtain players contribution score.
3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play
I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage.
I don't want this type of theory crafting to be limited to only top end players. If there were no guides pretty much the whole community would be talking about it.
Steven I believe mentioned that he doesn't want add-ons in his game. If that's so then overlays like a dps meter being an add-on is in that case considered a cheat as far as Steven is concerned because he doesn't want add-ons
Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks.
So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc.
This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc.
Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization.
But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization.
I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me.
1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven.
2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks.
3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself.
But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare.
1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play.
2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a curtain players contribution score.
3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play
I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage.
I don't want this type of theory crafting to be limited to only top end players. If there were no guides pretty much the whole community would be talking about it.
Steven I believe mentioned that he doesn't want add-ons in his game. If that's so then overlays like a dps meter being an add-on is in that case considered a cheat as far as Steven is concerned because he doesn't want add-ons
Who said that theorycrafting is limited go top end players? I only mentioned that top en players do it as a counter argument to "guides are what every player should follow". I mean, even I like to try new things to see what works or not on a specific encounter. But, I usually trust the hardcore players that spend hours and hours simulating and theorycrafting more than my theories and builds. That doesn't mean that I am limited to follow them, but opens up more interesting ways to play a certain class.
Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks.
So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc.
This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc.
Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization.
But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization.
I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me.
1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven.
2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks.
3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself.
But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare.
1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play.
2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a curtain players contribution score.
3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play
I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage.
I don't want this type of theory crafting to be limited to only top end players. If there were no guides pretty much the whole community would be talking about it.
Steven I believe mentioned that he doesn't want add-ons in his game. If that's so then overlays like a dps meter being an add-on is in that case considered a cheat as far as Steven is concerned because he doesn't want add-ons
So writing down the damage you have done from your combat log on paper, and then divide it by the time it takes to kill a boss to get the DPS, is that cheating? Because, usually combat trackers display combat information outside the game, so it's not an addon but a sperated program that may have a overlay in-game.
Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks.
So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc.
This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc.
Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization.
But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization.
I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me.
1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven.
2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks.
3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself.
But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare.
1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play.
2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a curtain players contribution score.
3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play
I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage.
I don't want this type of theory crafting to be limited to only top end players. If there were no guides pretty much the whole community would be talking about it.
Steven I believe mentioned that he doesn't want add-ons in his game. If that's so then overlays like a dps meter being an add-on is in that case considered a cheat as far as Steven is concerned because he doesn't want add-ons
So writing down the damage you have done from your combat log on paper, and then divide it by the time it takes to kill a boss to get the DPS, is that cheating? Because, usually combat trackers display combat information outside the game, so it's not an addon but a sperated program that may have a overlay in-game.
As far as I understand we are talking about no combat log here as well. Because if there is a combat log then it defeats the purpose of having no dps meter as you have said.
Besides that you are talking about doing the statistical analysis by hand which a DPS meter does automatically. The DPS meter makes this whole process a lot easier and provides easy inclusion into this whole side of mathematics of the game to a wider audience. You are asking me if I'd prefer no dps meter but yes on combat log - yes if we can't have No Dps Meter and No combat log I'd rather have No dps meter and only a combat log because less people would actually want to do the whole math on paper because its tedious and time-consuming. Only truly dedicated players to the game would do that. This adds another layer dividing between casuals and hardcore players and makes it that much more likely that casuals will ask for advice(making the game more social) and the divide not only adds positively socially to the game but also adds to the payoff of being a hardcore player, putting in the time and effort because less people will do the paper math work thus less people will have optimized specs which translates to better pvp outcomes for the hardcore player. All these overlays and dps meters aren't evil but I'd also say they are handholding tools. True hardcore players of MMOs in the past would do the maths on hand and track their CDs and CCs in their mind. Then tools and overlays came out which allowed for a wider audience to get just as good as them without putting in as much effort and time. This actually made it so time spent in the game mattered less because more people could get to where you are thanks to automation like dps meters. Then came raid add-ons and PvP add-ons that again automated things which you'd normally have to pay attention for, discover by yourself, track and learn how to counter and thus feel a challenge within PvP and PvE. This again sucked out a lot from the meaning of spending time inside the game, gathering game knowledge, honing skills, learning dungeon layouts, drafting those layouts on a paper etc. Again things which separated hardcore players from casuals got destroyed by the automation of add-ons. This divide is exactly want made spending time in the game meaningful. Now it's meaningless because everyone has access to guides, everyone has access to tons of overlays and meters, everyone has access to dungeon add-ons which show you where to go, what to do and what to watch out for and they are all very noob friendly allowing for anyone to install and get to know how to use them in seconds. There even was a "quest arrow" add-on which made even leveling and world exploration into a mindless ordeal of following a arrow. Before it you'd have to at least go and search it on the web and before guides in the web people would actually have to read quests and in some cases when the quest was even more obscure they'd have to explore, search or ask other players if they have done it and if so where to go. This added to the depth of the game, added to the challenge of the game and added to the social aspect of the game but it's all gone now because of web guides, add-ons and meters. This is actually one of the reasons why I like Ashes because every server will be different so even if Steven caves and adds add-on support, adds meters etc then at least there wont be very good guides in terms of the content of the game on the web for a very long time thanks to the fact that every server will have different content. So yea I'd prefer it if possible to have no meters, no add-ons, no guides, no nothing. All these things are just carebear crutches and handholding tools which actually make the game LESS interesting by doing most of the exploring and work for you. And sadly arguments like "So don't use guides, add-ons but let the people who want to use them to use them." are invalid because these tools raise the bar for casuals and for hardcore players and if you don't use them as well then you can get kicked from raids because you are simply below even the casual level and it's not because you haven't spent time in the game and others have, no it's because they chose to read a guide or use an add-on so that they get their work cut out for them or automated.
Add-ons, Meters and Guides make the game less social, remove from it's depth, subtract from the intentionally placed challenge of the game, world and level design and destroy world exploration.
Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks.
So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done.
This was sort of the suggestion I came up with just a few days ago in this thread. However, there is one very key thing with it.
This is not a replacement for combat trackers. The issue you are trying to address with this is not caused by combat trackers as a whole, it is caused by the information they make most easily accessible. Whether by a UI element in a combat tracker addon, or by copy/pasting in to chat or having an overlay for combat trackers that are discrete applications.
He issue you want to stop is people making decisions on others performance via a single metric - making an over all metric easier for such people to access will mean that the over all metric is what they will use.
There also needs to be some account if what the guild in question values some may well value getting through content quickly more highly, in which case DPS should factor higher in the score. Others may value accuracy with encounter mechanics, or outright survivability more. Any system in which the game is giving a score should take what the guild values in to considerations, and the guild should he able to change what it values each encounter, if it wishes.
This is where having an over all contribution rather than a singular DPS score is valid - but it is only valid in those easily accessed locations. It isn't a replacement for combat trackers.
The background data still needs to be able to be looked over (assuming any complexity at all to encounters) but in the presence of an easy to quantify score, only those with an understanding of details will want to look any deeper.
Some people fail to comprehend that "The Meta" is something that simple cannot be stopped from being established or spread, especially in a competitive game, it doesn't take long for games to be "sorted out" and put into spreadsheets.
Limiting players tools and information never stops the meta formation, but game complexity certainly does make it more nuanced and slow it down quite well.
Some people fail to comprehend that "The Meta" is something that simple cannot be stopped from being established or spread, especially in a competitive game, in doesn't take long for games to be "sorted out" and put into spreadsheets.
Limiting players tools and information never stops the meta formation, but game complexity certainly does make it more nuanced and slow it down quite well.
What a lack of information does do to a games meta is make people too scared to deviate from it.
Archeage is a good example of this - the game had very low combat tracker use, and for the entire time I played it the meta didn't shift at all. Daggerspels and Darkrunners all day.
Once a meta is established, people need data in order to deviate from it. If Daggerspells and Darkrunners are the class to be, then that is what people will be because they have no data to tell them otherwise.
Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks.
So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc.
This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc.
Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization.
But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization.
I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me.
1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven.
2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks.
3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself.
But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare.
1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play.
2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a certain players contribution score.
3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play
I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage.
I don't want this type of theory crafting to be limited to only top end players. If there were no guides pretty much the whole community would be talking about it.
Steven I believe mentioned that he doesn't want add-ons in his game. If that's so then overlays like a dps meter being an add-on is in that case considered a cheat as far as Steven is concerned because he doesn't want add-ons
So writing down the damage you have done from your combat log on paper, and then divide it by the time it takes to kill a boss to get the DPS, is that cheating? Because, usually combat trackers display combat information outside the game, so it's not an addon but a sperated program that may have a overlay in-game.
As far as I understand we are talking about no combat log here as well. Because if there is a combat log then it defeats the purpose of having no dps meter as you have said.
Besides that you are talking about doing the statistical analysis by hand which a DPS meter does automatically. The DPS meter makes this whole process a lot easier and provides easy inclusion into this whole side of mathematics of the game to a wider audience. You are asking me if I'd prefer no dps meter but yes on combat log - yes if we can't have No Dps Meter and No combat log I'd rather have No dps meter and only a combat log because less people would actually want to do the whole math on paper because its tedious and time-consuming. Only truly dedicated players to the game would do that. This adds another layer dividing between casuals and hardcore players and makes it that much more likely that casuals will ask for advice(making the game more social) and the divide not only adds positively socially to the game but also adds to the payoff of being a hardcore player, putting in the time and effort because less people will do the paper math work thus less people will have optimized specs which translates to better pvp outcomes for the hardcore player. All these overlays and dps meters aren't evil but I'd also say they are handholding tools. True hardcore players of MMOs in the past would do the maths on hand and track their CDs and CCs in their mind. Then tools and overlays came out which allowed for a wider audience to get just as good as them without putting in as much effort and time. This actually made it so time spent in the game mattered less because more people could get to where you are thanks to automation like dps meters. Then came raid add-ons and PvP add-ons that again automated things which you'd normally have to pay attention for, discover by yourself, track and learn how to counter and thus feel a challenge within PvP and PvE. This again sucked out a lot from the meaning of spending time inside the game, gathering game knowledge, honing skills, learning dungeon layouts, drafting those layouts on a paper etc. Again things which separated hardcore players from casuals got destroyed by the automation of add-ons. This divide is exactly want made spending time in the game meaningful. Now it's meaningless because everyone has access to guides, everyone has access to tons of overlays and meters, everyone has access to dungeon add-ons which show you where to go, what to do and what to watch out for and they are all very noob friendly allowing for anyone to install and get to know how to use them in seconds. There even was a "quest arrow" add-on which made even leveling and world exploration into a mindless ordeal of following a arrow. Before it you'd have to at least go and search it on the web and before guides in the web people would actually have to read quests and in some cases when the quest was even more obscure they'd have to explore, search or ask other players if they have done it and if so where to go. This added to the depth of the game, added to the challenge of the game and added to the social aspect of the game but it's all gone now because of web guides, add-ons and meters. This is actually one of the reasons why I like Ashes because every server will be different so even if Steven caves and adds add-on support, adds meters etc then at least there wont be very good guides in terms of the content of the game on the web for a very long time thanks to the fact that every server will have different content. So yea I'd prefer it if possible to have no meters, no add-ons, no guides, no nothing. All these things are just carebear crutches and handholding tools which actually make the game LESS interesting by doing most of the exploring and work for you. And sadly arguments like "So don't use guides, add-ons but let the people who want to use them to use them." are invalid because these tools raise the bar for casuals and for hardcore players and if you don't use them as well then you can get kicked from raids because you are simply below even the casual level and it's not because you haven't spent time in the game and others have, no it's because they chose to read a guide or use an add-on so that they get their work cut out for them or automated.
Add-ons, Meters and Guides make the game less social, remove from it's depth, subtract from the intentionally placed challenge of the game, world and level design and destroy world exploration.
My point with the personal combat log and calculating your DPS with that was to point out that using outside means to calculate DPS is not illegal. Hard core people will not calculate DPS or other stats by hand, they will get programs like Act to do it faster and more precise. If AoC have in-game combat tracker it will open up the possibility for casual players to explore the game mechanis and learn from it. Not sure why you think it's good to divide the community in even more and well defined groups. All players should have the opportunity to learn and get better at the game without going to the internet and downloading a third party combat tracker.
I'm not sure what you mean with, people get automatically better by using tools and DPS meters? They don't. Just because a player have a DPS meter on the screen they don't get better and it won't hand hold them on boss encounters. Combat Trackers only shows what happened, it is then up to the individual person to learn from that and try their best to get better from that information, nothing about it is automatic or hand holding.
When you say hardcore player in the past, how long back do you mean? Because from my knowledge people have used combat trackers since early 2000s. When people first started to get hardcore about MMOs, they developed a combat tracker to get the information they wanted, since doing it by hand is just to inefficient and have large margin of errors.
I would argue that combat trackers (not addons like combat assistance addons) make the game more social. When people have facts they can build solid arguments which open up the chance for informative and healthy discussions about certain classes and builds. If you have no solid information and base everything on feeling, then you will never have a constructive discussion.
And guides. Guides are just guidelines that new player should follow to help them with a new class or build. They are not rules that need to be followed, they are just a suggestion of a way to play. A guide may have suggested talent points that a generally good, it may have Gear suggtions that scale good with that class. It may even have a rotation that's optimal to use during optimal conditions on a general standard fight. It's then up to you to find your play style and see what works with you. And you can use combat trackers to support the effectiveness of your personal guild/rotation. I personally like guides since it's a good starting point, it's not needed or demanded (not the right word xD) that you follow a guide, you can figure it out by yourself as well.
From my experience, combat tracker and guides do not make the game less social. It enables people to explore the depth of the game. It doesn't subtract from the intentionally placed challenge of the game, world and level design since that's up to the developers. And guides may potentially destroy some world exploration, but that's also up to you if you read them or not.
Finally I want to ask you a question. What experience have you had in a MMO that makes you think that combat trackers and guides makes the game less sociable?
What a lack of information does do to a games meta is make people too scared to deviate from it.
Archeage is a good example of this - the game had very low combat tracker use, and for the entire time I played it the meta didn't shift at all. Daggerspels and Darkrunners all day.
Once a meta is established, people need data in order to deviate from it. If Daggerspells and Darkrunners are the class to be, then that is what people will be because they have no data to tell them otherwise.
In my opinion lack of easily accessible in-game information creates a bigger disparity between people who will actively test and seek that information and lead people who plays more casually and aren't interested about going in-depth into the game hidden meta and mechanics.
Once stablished, meta can only change through game updates, or discovery of new meta meaning the previous meta wasn't completely stablished.
This adds another layer dividing between casuals and hardcore players and makes it that much more likely that casuals will ask for advice(making the game more social) and the divide not only adds positively socially to the game but also adds to the payoff of being a hardcore player
A few things.
First, your posts are hard to read. Paragraphs of anywhere from 1 to 5 sentences are your friend.
2, the above is not true. As someone that enjoys helping people in games, the absolute best way to do that is to teach them how to improve on their own - as in, how to use a combat tracker to understand where they are at, where they should be, and how to get there.
If I have to assist every player I am trying to help at every step of heir self improvement (*self* improvement), then I will simply stop helping people because I literally would not have any time left to play the game myself (or work, or sleep, or eat).
On the other hand, if I can teach these people how to do it them self, then not only am I not needed for the process, but that person gets the satisfaction of both knowing they actually did it by them self, and also of being able to help others in the same way.
Your suggestion here is basically like saying that some of us know how to fish, and you would rather those that know how to fish hand fish over to those that don't, rather than teaching them how to fish.
I'd rather teach others how to fish, and if I were someone that didn't know how, I'd rather be taught than have that fish handed to me.
The next thing you said that is factually incorrect is in relation to how top end players were managing cooldowns and CC's in their heads, and combat trackers came in to make is easier for others to do this.
The first aspect by which this is just incorrect is that combat trackers do not assist players with tracking cooldowns or CC's. You are thinking of other combat assistant addons (from WoW, I am guessing) that are jot combat trackers and are simply not what is being discussed here.
I feel no real need to go in to any other aspect of why that statement from you is factually incorrect.
You then go on to talk about raid and PvP addons, which again are not what is being discussed here.
After that, you then go on to say that combat trackers remove artificial player segregation, but you claim this is a bad thing, not a good thing. I see no reasoning at all as to why this is a bad thing, and most players and developers would consider anything that reduced player segregation to be a very good thing.
Then you go on about how guides and such make the game less interesting, as the exploration and such is done for you. As someone that has written a number of popular class guides and builds in my time, let me tell you now, I don't use them. A guide is something that will be an 80% fit for 80% of players.
If you use a build guide in a game and then complain about a lack of exploration needed to get that build, the issue is with you. The build isn't perfect, there is still plenty to explore. If you don't go out and do that exploration, that is 100% your fault, not the build.
Yet, builds and guides have literally nothing to do with combat trackers. They will exist with or without them.
All up, most of this post was nonsensical and seemed fairly ill thought out.
Once stablished, meta can only change through game updates, or discovery of new meta meaning the previous meta wasn't completely stablished.
This is true, but without data, there is no way of telling if a new meta is better or worse - which is the point.
This is why Darkrunners and Daggerspells are STILL the meta in Archeage. They aren't the best classes to run, they are just considered the best - and no one is producing any data to the contrary, so no one is changing.
This is why Darkrunners and Daggerspells are STILL the meta in Archeage. They aren't the best classes to run, they are just considered the best - and no one is producing any data to the contrary, so no one is changing.
Darkrunner is still meta in Archeage for sure, but nowadays Executioner and the new builds using the melee tree Swiftblade are as meta as Darkrunner if not superior, Daggerspell fell from it's early grace since the nerfs in the Witchcraft skill tree and the release of the Malediction skill tree.
Even with limited data, Meta changed because of game updates/changes. Some classes became worse than previously and others raised to the top.
Noaani quick question, when did ACT start it's development? Or when was it first released and to what game?
I know combat trackers have been around a long time but not sure where it started.
I have nothing to do with its development, just to be clear.
However, my understanding is that it was released in 2005 or 2006, primarily for EQ2, but developed in a way where it is easy to use with any log file.
It was not the first combat tracker I used. The earliest combat tracker I know of was available in 1999, though there are no records of it that I can find anywhere (I looked for it earlier in this thread).
Trackers have been around for basically all of MMO history.
This is why Darkrunners and Daggerspells are STILL the meta in Archeage. They aren't the best classes to run, they are just considered the best - and no one is producing any data to the contrary, so no one is changing.
Darkrunner is still meta in Archeage for sure, but nowadays Executioner and the new builds using the melee tree Swiftblade are as meta as Darkrunner if not superior, Daggerspell fell from it's early grace since the nerfs in the Witchcraft skill tree and the release of the Malediction skill tree.
Even with limited data, Meta changed because of game updates/changes. Some classes became worse than previously and others raised to the top.
Glad it finally sort of happened. I'm sure all three people in the game all respec'd.
The thing is, XL spent actual years trying to change the meta. That is what they added ancestral levels to try and do, and even then people wouldn't budge.
However, my point wasn't that the meta won't change without combat trackers, it was that it will change much slower. Archeage absolutely proves this.
A game shouldn't need developers to step in to alter the meta. Players should be able to do that
Noaani quick question, when did ACT start it's development? Or when was it first released and to what game?
I know combat trackers have been around a long time but not sure where it started.
I have nothing to do with its development, just to be clear.
However, my understanding is that it was released in 2005 or 2006, primarily for EQ2, but developed in a way where it is easy to use with any log file.
It was not the first combat tracker I used. The earliest combat tracker I know of was available in 1999, though there are no records of it that I can find anywhere (I looked for it earlier in this thread).
Trackers have been around for basically all of MMO history.
Yeah I know, I remember the conversation about that xD
I just knew you have used it for a long time, and that it's an old tracker, so I figured I'd ask
Noaani quick question, when did ACT start it's development? Or when was it first released and to what game?
I know combat trackers have been around a long time but not sure where it started.
I have nothing to do with its development, just to be clear.
However, my understanding is that it was released in 2005 or 2006, primarily for EQ2, but developed in a way where it is easy to use with any log file.
It was not the first combat tracker I used. The earliest combat tracker I know of was available in 1999, though there are no records of it that I can find anywhere (I looked for it earlier in this thread).
Trackers have been around for basically all of MMO history.
Yeah I know, I remember the conversation about that xD
I just knew you have used it for a long time, and that it's an old tracker, so I figured I'd ask
All good, just figured it was worth mentioning for new people as much as anything.
I don't want anyone at all thinking I am responsible for ACT - not because I don't think it is great as an application, but simply because I don't want to take any credit from the people (person, really) that did make it.
The entire mindset behind dps meters defeats the purpose of the game which is make your own build and have fun. Classic WoW is actually a good example of why DPS meters aren't always right. Especially because it can't differentiate where the damage is coming from. Paladins did the most damage in the entire game by just buffing their entire raid, but the DPS meter doesn't count that added damage as their damage. Thus is the fatal flaw behind that kind of thing.
There are also specs that theoretically do the most damage in the game, but no one ever took the time to learn how to do it. Mainly feral cat druids. Hardest build in classic to play by far and is so hard that not even the most hardcore in the game want to play it. Had someone ever learned the spec they could top the meters, but the problem with this is your goal has changed from having fun to topping a stupid meter.
Doesn't even include how the majority of the community uses this crap irresponsibly most of the time. Like not doing mechanics just to do more damage, dying, and potentially wiping the entire raid because one asshole decided he wanted more damage in a stupid meter.
There will be classes in this game that do nothing but buff other classes and is their main role. You will need these classes to have a good party. These classes will seem completely useless in a DPS meter. It just does not work in this kind of game and all it does is make the community more toxic.
You give the dps meters too much credit over actual player skill to beat things without them. They were never needed, hurt the game, and will never be needed.
The entire mindset behind dps meters defeats the purpose of the game which is make your own build and have fun. Classic WoW is actually a good example of why DPS meters aren't always right. Especially because it can't differentiate where the damage is coming from. Paladins did the most damage in the entire game by just buffing their entire raid, but the DPS meter doesn't count that added damage as their damage. Thus is the fatal flaw behind that kind of thing.
There are also specs that theoretically do the most damage in the game, but no one ever took the time to learn how to do it. Mainly feral cat druids. Hardest build in classic to play by far and is so hard that not even the most hardcore in the game want to play it. Had someone ever learned the spec they could top the meters, but the problem with this is your goal has changed from having fun to topping a stupid meter.
Doesn't even include how the majority of the community uses this crap irresponsibly most of the time. Like not doing mechanics just to do more damage, dying, and potentially wiping the entire raid because one asshole decided he wanted more damage in a stupid meter.
There will be classes in this game that do nothing but buff other classes and is their main role. You will need these classes to have a good party. These classes will seem completely useless in a DPS meter. It just does not work in this kind of game and all it does is make the community more toxic.
You give the dps meters too much credit over actual player skill to beat things without them. They were never needed, hurt the game, and will never be needed.
As we have said before, combat trackers knows that the paladin have applied kings or other blessings. If a player says that they don't want a paladin in the group because they do less DPS or healing, then find a new group. EVERY group in classic and classic TBC had at least 2-3 paladins to get the buffs.
As a feral druid my self I know that ferals can do great DPS and sometimes top DPS. But they are not a class you bring to do max DPS. You bring a feral druid to get the druid buffs and specifically the 3% crit aura buff.
Currently in phase 3, Black temple and Mount Hyjal, Feral dps is 8th on damage ( https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1011#dataset=99 ). That doesn't mean you don't bring one, because you do.
And, it's because of heavy combat log use and simulating that ferals have been able to excel in classic wow. I mean, we still use a lvl 40 helm in TBC, were max lvl is 70. You can join the druid discord if you want and you will see a lot of people theorycrafting and playing feral druid in hardcore guilds.
And we don't use DPS meter to beat things, we use combat logs to see information and from that come up with theories. You still heavily need skill to beat things. You don't automatically gain skill because you have a DPS meter on screen xD
The entire mindset behind dps meters defeats the purpose of the game which is make your own build and have fun. Classic WoW is actually a good example of why DPS meters aren't always right. Especially because it can't differentiate where the damage is coming from. Paladins did the most damage in the entire game by just buffing their entire raid, but the DPS meter doesn't count that added damage as their damage. Thus is the fatal flaw behind that kind of thing.
There are also specs that theoretically do the most damage in the game, but no one ever took the time to learn how to do it. Mainly feral cat druids. Hardest build in classic to play by far and is so hard that not even the most hardcore in the game want to play it. Had someone ever learned the spec they could top the meters, but the problem with this is your goal has changed from having fun to topping a stupid meter.
Doesn't even include how the majority of the community uses this crap irresponsibly most of the time. Like not doing mechanics just to do more damage, dying, and potentially wiping the entire raid because one asshole decided he wanted more damage in a stupid meter.
There will be classes in this game that do nothing but buff other classes and is their main role. You will need these classes to have a good party. These classes will seem completely useless in a DPS meter. It just does not work in this kind of game and all it does is make the community more toxic.
You give the dps meters too much credit over actual player skill to beat things without them. They were never needed, hurt the game, and will never be needed.
It's important to recognize the difference between "DPS Meters" and "Combat Tracking". Irresponsible DPS Meter usage, like you said, causes people to ignore mechanics in favor of a bigger number on their meter. Combat tracking allows you to find who's ignoring the mechanics and call them out. DPS Meters won't watch a paladin's indirect damage through buffs, but proper Combat Tracking will prove their usefulness.
I used to have the same mindset as you. I played a shield spec Enhancement Shaman in Classic WoW while leveling, something that pretty much nobody did. I love making my own builds, despite whatever the Metagame says. It was frustrating for me to get attacked for having 80% of the other DPS's meters, when its clear to me that being able to off-tank and off-heal is worth slightly lower damage numbers. This made me dislike damage meters/combat tracking, and agree with Steven Sharif's call on DPS meters/combat tracking in Ashes.
However, looking at other people's experiences like what @rikardp98 said, combat tracking just as often validates builds that are often seen as bad. I then had a guild group trying to get through Castle Nathria where combat tracking was absolutely imperative to see which idiots were consistently fucking up. This (along with @Noaani being pretty educational and convincing) changed my view.
IDK if you've played Overwatch and League of Legends, but Overwatch has damage meters only and League of Legends has combat tracking. Overwatch is infinitely more toxic when it comes to your impact. Because Overwatch only tracks a few stats, people get flamed for incorrect reasons based on the limited stats. There's plenty of flaming in League of Legends, but people don't care nearly as much about things like your raw damage numbers.
DPS meters can enable some fun competition and some toxic idiots. Combat tracking enables data-driven decisions that allow innovators to make an impact on the meta and saves time for the whole raid group.
You give the dps meters too much credit over actual player skill to beat things without them. They were never needed, hurt the game, and will never be needed.
I hate to say it, but you are the one giving combat trackers too much credit here.
You claim that support classes won't work with combat trackers, and that somehow the combination of the two will create toxicity. Going back to EQ2, the game with combat tracker use on par with (or greater than) WoW but with no toxicity. The game has 4 full support classes - yet still no toxicity due to combat trackers.
I al really curious as to where your statement that support classes and combat trackers will cause toxicity, as actual proof indicates it is not the case. All that is needed is for people playing support classes to understand that they will not be top DPS and not be upset by that (this seems to be your issue here, honestly), and people running pick up content to understand the value of support classes.
I mean, by this logic, people wouldn't be taking tanks or healers either, as they are usually at the bottom of a DPS reading. People understand that they perform a function that is not DPS, and so generally have no problem bringing one of each along.
I see no reason at all to assume the above would not be the same with support classes - especially considering actual events in past games points to exactly that happening.
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With augments, you don't need a DPS meter to tell you who is ignoring mechanics.
Pushing to save time is a key aspect of toxicity in MMORPGs.
With augments, you don't need a DPS meter to tell you who is ignoring mechanics.
Pushing to save time is a key aspect of toxicity in MMORPGs.
This whole thing makes no sense - as per usual.
How do you know who is ignoring mechanics? More importantly, how do you know the impact of them ignoring mechanics? Because some mechanics can be ignored by some characters some of the time, and sometimes that is needed in order to successfully defeat an encounter.
Without a combat tracker, how do you know who should and who shouldn't be ignoring which mechanics, and which mechanics everyone should be paying attention to, which no one should pay attention to, how often those that we should pay attention to need to be properly dealt with vs how often they can be ignored and then how specifically do we have all of that information broken down in a per-character basis?
Second, what the hell do augments have to do with any of this? Literally nothing.
Pushing to save time is only a cause of toxicity if most people do not wish to push for time. If everyone present bar one wishes to push for time, then it is NOT pushing for time that causes that toxicity.
This is why people that wish to play the game in a top end manner should not mix with those that do not wish to do so, and those that wish to not push themselves need to understand that this means not running content that requires one to push oneself.
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The key aspect you are talking about above that causes toxicity is not pushing for time, it is friction among players.
To you, someone that never wants to push them self, this means that when you are grouped with people that do wish to push, toxicity ensues. You see this as the push being the cause of toxicity, when in fact it is the friction between those wishing to push and those not willing to push. If those wishing to push for time were playing only with others that are likeminded, there is no toxicity to be had - and as such the statement that pushing for time causes toxicity is as false as the statement that combat trackers cause toxicity.
Toxicity is caused by friction between players wanting to do things differently, and not understanding when they need to acquiesce to the other perspective.
Basically, toxicity is caused by players that refuse to compromise.
With augments, you don't need a DPS meter to tell you who is ignoring mechanics.
Pushing to save time is a key aspect of toxicity in MMORPGs.
This whole thing makes no sense - as per usual.
How do you know who is ignoring mechanics? More importantly, how do you know the impact of them ignoring mechanics? Because some mechanics can be ignored by some characters some of the time, and sometimes that is needed in order to successfully defeat an encounter.
Without a combat tracker, how do you know who should and who shouldn't be ignoring which mechanics, and which mechanics everyone should be paying attention to, which no one should pay attention to, how often those that we should pay attention to need to be properly dealt with vs how often they can be ignored and then how specifically do we have all of that information broken down in a per-character basis?
Second, what the hell do augments have to do with any of this? Literally nothing.
Pushing to save time is only a cause of toxicity if most people do not wish to push for time. If everyone present bar one wishes to push for time, then it is NOT pushing for time that causes that toxicity.
This is why people that wish to play the game in a top end manner should not mix with those that do not wish to do so, and those that wish to not push themselves need to understand that this means not running content that requires one to push oneself.
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The key aspect you are talking about above that causes toxicity is not pushing for time, it is friction among players.
To you, someone that never wants to push them self, this means that when you are grouped with people that do wish to push, toxicity ensues. You see this as the push being the cause of toxicity, when in fact it is the friction between those wishing to push and those not willing to push. If those wishing to push for time were playing only with others that are likeminded, there is no toxicity to be had - and as such the statement that pushing for time causes toxicity is as false as the statement that combat trackers cause toxicity.
Toxicity is caused by friction between players wanting to do things differently, and not understanding when they need to acquiesce to the other perspective.
Basically, toxicity is caused by players that refuse to compromise.
If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time. If the creators of the game push this sort of incentive then anyone who wants to play the game to chill or to have his character be viable in terms of mechanics will be considered toxic because he isn't filling up the all mighty DPS meter
If DPS meters are banned then that sort of incentive is actually discouraged and players wont have to force themselves or their builds to measure up to any kind of meter and only people who hack DPS meters into the game will be considered toxic for 1. hacking the game 2. for forcing players to measure up to some meter which isn't supposed to be part of the game.
So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic.
So this whole thread is all about who'll have to compromise. Do we want to force the whole community to compromise with freedom, fun and diversity in exchange for a DPS meter or do we want to force the players who want DPS meters to compromise the DPS meter in exchange to play the game.
You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising. While that shouldn't ever be case when we are talking about something like an accessory. Players shouldn't be forced to use an accessory part of a game to be able to play the game in a way that isn't toxic.
The only reason people like DPS meters and combat trackers imo is because it's a carebear handholding tool. It tells players exactly what they need to do to be able to complete specific content. That's a bad formula and games like Souls games and old classic games prove that. Players don't need to be told what to do in a game to play the game properly. They have fun without that and they can figure out where a problem is coming from even without that.
On the other thing which Dygz mentioned and you didn't understand at all - he is right. Augments will tell us who is ignoring mechanics because players who choose to worship the DPS meter will mostly choose augments which increase DPS. By this it will be evident that he is ignoring mechanics
If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time.
A combat tracker will not do this.
Players will do this regardless.
Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions.
They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have.
If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things.
Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that.
So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic.
That isn't really how it all works.
If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish.
Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve.
In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you.
The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that.
In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why.
You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising.
People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic.
If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you.
This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic).
The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can.
If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time.
A combat tracker will not do this.
Players will do this regardless.
Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions.
They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have.
If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things.
Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that.
So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic.
That isn't really how it all works.
If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish.
Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve.
In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you.
The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that.
In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why.
You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising.
People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic.
If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you.
This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic).
The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can.
When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters.
The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community.
If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality.
"Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows:
Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay.
Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress.
Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis."
Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out.
If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc.
As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community.
DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking.
When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter.
Except this doesn't happen in any game other than WoW.
You can't just make wild accusations of what will happen in a game with combat trackers when there are many games that make use of trackers and the thing you are saying will happen simply hasn't happened.
Regardless of combat tracker use, players will have a general expectation of others.
"Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows:
Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay.
Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress.
Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis."
Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out.
If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc.
If there were no combat trackers, raids would still take along as much DPS as they can, because the object of any and all raid encounters is to reduce the targets hit points to zero. The way to do this is to deal damage to them, so the point of a raid is to bring along as many high damage dealing classes as possible, and then the tanks needed to keep mobs off those damage dealers, and the healers needed to keep everyone alive.
If you want things like a need to reduce DPS, or kiting, or anything else that you talked about, that is a matter of encounter design, not a case of combat trackers. Even without combat trackers, the goal of the encounter will be the same (reduce target to zero hit points), and so the set up for the raid will still be dictated by as much DPS as possible built around the tanks and healers needed.
I have played a number of games that have encounters that have deviated away from the basic MAX DPS paradigm. One in particular set an actual cap on how much DPS the raid as a whole could do to the boss, and any more than that would see a wipe. I have seen encounters where CC was absolutely king. Encounters where kiting is required, encounters where mana management is all that matters. Basically, encounters that don't just require DPS and following a script.
The thing is, these encounters are all that way due to the encounter. That is what top end encounters are all about - throwing something different at players.
The other thing with all of these encounters - combat trackers are key to understanding what is going on. Without combat trackers, complex encounters like this straight up will not exist.
DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking.
No.
Encounter design narrows down thinking.
But that is what it is supposed to do.
Encounters are puzzles. Developers give players a puzzle that usually only has one path to solving. Players think narrow because there usually is only that one path - so this is all as it should be.
Comments
1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play.
2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a certain players contribution score.
3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play
I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage.
I don't want this type of theory crafting to be limited to only top end players. If there were no guides pretty much the whole community would be talking about it.
Steven I believe mentioned that he doesn't want add-ons in his game. If that's so then overlays like a dps meter being an add-on is in that case considered a cheat as far as Steven is concerned because he doesn't want add-ons
Who said that theorycrafting is limited go top end players? I only mentioned that top en players do it as a counter argument to "guides are what every player should follow". I mean, even I like to try new things to see what works or not on a specific encounter. But, I usually trust the hardcore players that spend hours and hours simulating and theorycrafting more than my theories and builds. That doesn't mean that I am limited to follow them, but opens up more interesting ways to play a certain class.
So writing down the damage you have done from your combat log on paper, and then divide it by the time it takes to kill a boss to get the DPS, is that cheating? Because, usually combat trackers display combat information outside the game, so it's not an addon but a sperated program that may have a overlay in-game.
As far as I understand we are talking about no combat log here as well. Because if there is a combat log then it defeats the purpose of having no dps meter as you have said.
Besides that you are talking about doing the statistical analysis by hand which a DPS meter does automatically. The DPS meter makes this whole process a lot easier and provides easy inclusion into this whole side of mathematics of the game to a wider audience. You are asking me if I'd prefer no dps meter but yes on combat log - yes if we can't have No Dps Meter and No combat log I'd rather have No dps meter and only a combat log because less people would actually want to do the whole math on paper because its tedious and time-consuming. Only truly dedicated players to the game would do that. This adds another layer dividing between casuals and hardcore players and makes it that much more likely that casuals will ask for advice(making the game more social) and the divide not only adds positively socially to the game but also adds to the payoff of being a hardcore player, putting in the time and effort because less people will do the paper math work thus less people will have optimized specs which translates to better pvp outcomes for the hardcore player. All these overlays and dps meters aren't evil but I'd also say they are handholding tools. True hardcore players of MMOs in the past would do the maths on hand and track their CDs and CCs in their mind. Then tools and overlays came out which allowed for a wider audience to get just as good as them without putting in as much effort and time. This actually made it so time spent in the game mattered less because more people could get to where you are thanks to automation like dps meters. Then came raid add-ons and PvP add-ons that again automated things which you'd normally have to pay attention for, discover by yourself, track and learn how to counter and thus feel a challenge within PvP and PvE. This again sucked out a lot from the meaning of spending time inside the game, gathering game knowledge, honing skills, learning dungeon layouts, drafting those layouts on a paper etc. Again things which separated hardcore players from casuals got destroyed by the automation of add-ons. This divide is exactly want made spending time in the game meaningful. Now it's meaningless because everyone has access to guides, everyone has access to tons of overlays and meters, everyone has access to dungeon add-ons which show you where to go, what to do and what to watch out for and they are all very noob friendly allowing for anyone to install and get to know how to use them in seconds. There even was a "quest arrow" add-on which made even leveling and world exploration into a mindless ordeal of following a arrow. Before it you'd have to at least go and search it on the web and before guides in the web people would actually have to read quests and in some cases when the quest was even more obscure they'd have to explore, search or ask other players if they have done it and if so where to go. This added to the depth of the game, added to the challenge of the game and added to the social aspect of the game but it's all gone now because of web guides, add-ons and meters. This is actually one of the reasons why I like Ashes because every server will be different so even if Steven caves and adds add-on support, adds meters etc then at least there wont be very good guides in terms of the content of the game on the web for a very long time thanks to the fact that every server will have different content. So yea I'd prefer it if possible to have no meters, no add-ons, no guides, no nothing. All these things are just carebear crutches and handholding tools which actually make the game LESS interesting by doing most of the exploring and work for you. And sadly arguments like "So don't use guides, add-ons but let the people who want to use them to use them." are invalid because these tools raise the bar for casuals and for hardcore players and if you don't use them as well then you can get kicked from raids because you are simply below even the casual level and it's not because you haven't spent time in the game and others have, no it's because they chose to read a guide or use an add-on so that they get their work cut out for them or automated.
Add-ons, Meters and Guides make the game less social, remove from it's depth, subtract from the intentionally placed challenge of the game, world and level design and destroy world exploration.
This was sort of the suggestion I came up with just a few days ago in this thread. However, there is one very key thing with it.
This is not a replacement for combat trackers. The issue you are trying to address with this is not caused by combat trackers as a whole, it is caused by the information they make most easily accessible. Whether by a UI element in a combat tracker addon, or by copy/pasting in to chat or having an overlay for combat trackers that are discrete applications.
He issue you want to stop is people making decisions on others performance via a single metric - making an over all metric easier for such people to access will mean that the over all metric is what they will use.
There also needs to be some account if what the guild in question values some may well value getting through content quickly more highly, in which case DPS should factor higher in the score. Others may value accuracy with encounter mechanics, or outright survivability more. Any system in which the game is giving a score should take what the guild values in to considerations, and the guild should he able to change what it values each encounter, if it wishes.
This is where having an over all contribution rather than a singular DPS score is valid - but it is only valid in those easily accessed locations. It isn't a replacement for combat trackers.
The background data still needs to be able to be looked over (assuming any complexity at all to encounters) but in the presence of an easy to quantify score, only those with an understanding of details will want to look any deeper.
Limiting players tools and information never stops the meta formation, but game complexity certainly does make it more nuanced and slow it down quite well.
Aren't we all sinners?
What a lack of information does do to a games meta is make people too scared to deviate from it.
Archeage is a good example of this - the game had very low combat tracker use, and for the entire time I played it the meta didn't shift at all. Daggerspels and Darkrunners all day.
Once a meta is established, people need data in order to deviate from it. If Daggerspells and Darkrunners are the class to be, then that is what people will be because they have no data to tell them otherwise.
My point with the personal combat log and calculating your DPS with that was to point out that using outside means to calculate DPS is not illegal. Hard core people will not calculate DPS or other stats by hand, they will get programs like Act to do it faster and more precise. If AoC have in-game combat tracker it will open up the possibility for casual players to explore the game mechanis and learn from it. Not sure why you think it's good to divide the community in even more and well defined groups. All players should have the opportunity to learn and get better at the game without going to the internet and downloading a third party combat tracker.
I'm not sure what you mean with, people get automatically better by using tools and DPS meters? They don't. Just because a player have a DPS meter on the screen they don't get better and it won't hand hold them on boss encounters. Combat Trackers only shows what happened, it is then up to the individual person to learn from that and try their best to get better from that information, nothing about it is automatic or hand holding.
When you say hardcore player in the past, how long back do you mean? Because from my knowledge people have used combat trackers since early 2000s. When people first started to get hardcore about MMOs, they developed a combat tracker to get the information they wanted, since doing it by hand is just to inefficient and have large margin of errors.
I would argue that combat trackers (not addons like combat assistance addons) make the game more social. When people have facts they can build solid arguments which open up the chance for informative and healthy discussions about certain classes and builds. If you have no solid information and base everything on feeling, then you will never have a constructive discussion.
And guides. Guides are just guidelines that new player should follow to help them with a new class or build. They are not rules that need to be followed, they are just a suggestion of a way to play. A guide may have suggested talent points that a generally good, it may have Gear suggtions that scale good with that class. It may even have a rotation that's optimal to use during optimal conditions on a general standard fight. It's then up to you to find your play style and see what works with you. And you can use combat trackers to support the effectiveness of your personal guild/rotation. I personally like guides since it's a good starting point, it's not needed or demanded (not the right word xD) that you follow a guide, you can figure it out by yourself as well.
From my experience, combat tracker and guides do not make the game less social. It enables people to explore the depth of the game. It doesn't subtract from the intentionally placed challenge of the game, world and level design since that's up to the developers. And guides may potentially destroy some world exploration, but that's also up to you if you read them or not.
Finally I want to ask you a question. What experience have you had in a MMO that makes you think that combat trackers and guides makes the game less sociable?
In my opinion lack of easily accessible in-game information creates a bigger disparity between people who will actively test and seek that information and lead people who plays more casually and aren't interested about going in-depth into the game hidden meta and mechanics.
Once stablished, meta can only change through game updates, or discovery of new meta meaning the previous meta wasn't completely stablished.
Aren't we all sinners?
First, your posts are hard to read. Paragraphs of anywhere from 1 to 5 sentences are your friend.
2, the above is not true. As someone that enjoys helping people in games, the absolute best way to do that is to teach them how to improve on their own - as in, how to use a combat tracker to understand where they are at, where they should be, and how to get there.
If I have to assist every player I am trying to help at every step of heir self improvement (*self* improvement), then I will simply stop helping people because I literally would not have any time left to play the game myself (or work, or sleep, or eat).
On the other hand, if I can teach these people how to do it them self, then not only am I not needed for the process, but that person gets the satisfaction of both knowing they actually did it by them self, and also of being able to help others in the same way.
Your suggestion here is basically like saying that some of us know how to fish, and you would rather those that know how to fish hand fish over to those that don't, rather than teaching them how to fish.
I'd rather teach others how to fish, and if I were someone that didn't know how, I'd rather be taught than have that fish handed to me.
The next thing you said that is factually incorrect is in relation to how top end players were managing cooldowns and CC's in their heads, and combat trackers came in to make is easier for others to do this.
The first aspect by which this is just incorrect is that combat trackers do not assist players with tracking cooldowns or CC's. You are thinking of other combat assistant addons (from WoW, I am guessing) that are jot combat trackers and are simply not what is being discussed here.
I feel no real need to go in to any other aspect of why that statement from you is factually incorrect.
You then go on to talk about raid and PvP addons, which again are not what is being discussed here.
After that, you then go on to say that combat trackers remove artificial player segregation, but you claim this is a bad thing, not a good thing. I see no reasoning at all as to why this is a bad thing, and most players and developers would consider anything that reduced player segregation to be a very good thing.
Then you go on about how guides and such make the game less interesting, as the exploration and such is done for you. As someone that has written a number of popular class guides and builds in my time, let me tell you now, I don't use them. A guide is something that will be an 80% fit for 80% of players.
If you use a build guide in a game and then complain about a lack of exploration needed to get that build, the issue is with you. The build isn't perfect, there is still plenty to explore. If you don't go out and do that exploration, that is 100% your fault, not the build.
Yet, builds and guides have literally nothing to do with combat trackers. They will exist with or without them.
All up, most of this post was nonsensical and seemed fairly ill thought out.
This is true, but without data, there is no way of telling if a new meta is better or worse - which is the point.
This is why Darkrunners and Daggerspells are STILL the meta in Archeage. They aren't the best classes to run, they are just considered the best - and no one is producing any data to the contrary, so no one is changing.
I know combat trackers have been around a long time but not sure where it started.
Darkrunner is still meta in Archeage for sure, but nowadays Executioner and the new builds using the melee tree Swiftblade are as meta as Darkrunner if not superior, Daggerspell fell from it's early grace since the nerfs in the Witchcraft skill tree and the release of the Malediction skill tree.
Even with limited data, Meta changed because of game updates/changes. Some classes became worse than previously and others raised to the top.
Aren't we all sinners?
I have nothing to do with its development, just to be clear.
However, my understanding is that it was released in 2005 or 2006, primarily for EQ2, but developed in a way where it is easy to use with any log file.
It was not the first combat tracker I used. The earliest combat tracker I know of was available in 1999, though there are no records of it that I can find anywhere (I looked for it earlier in this thread).
Trackers have been around for basically all of MMO history.
Glad it finally sort of happened. I'm sure all three people in the game all respec'd.
The thing is, XL spent actual years trying to change the meta. That is what they added ancestral levels to try and do, and even then people wouldn't budge.
However, my point wasn't that the meta won't change without combat trackers, it was that it will change much slower. Archeage absolutely proves this.
A game shouldn't need developers to step in to alter the meta. Players should be able to do that
They will be against the ToS, and we will have them anyway.
Yeah I know, I remember the conversation about that xD
I just knew you have used it for a long time, and that it's an old tracker, so I figured I'd ask
All good, just figured it was worth mentioning for new people as much as anything.
I don't want anyone at all thinking I am responsible for ACT - not because I don't think it is great as an application, but simply because I don't want to take any credit from the people (person, really) that did make it.
There are also specs that theoretically do the most damage in the game, but no one ever took the time to learn how to do it. Mainly feral cat druids. Hardest build in classic to play by far and is so hard that not even the most hardcore in the game want to play it. Had someone ever learned the spec they could top the meters, but the problem with this is your goal has changed from having fun to topping a stupid meter.
Doesn't even include how the majority of the community uses this crap irresponsibly most of the time. Like not doing mechanics just to do more damage, dying, and potentially wiping the entire raid because one asshole decided he wanted more damage in a stupid meter.
There will be classes in this game that do nothing but buff other classes and is their main role. You will need these classes to have a good party. These classes will seem completely useless in a DPS meter. It just does not work in this kind of game and all it does is make the community more toxic.
You give the dps meters too much credit over actual player skill to beat things without them. They were never needed, hurt the game, and will never be needed.
U.S. East
As we have said before, combat trackers knows that the paladin have applied kings or other blessings. If a player says that they don't want a paladin in the group because they do less DPS or healing, then find a new group. EVERY group in classic and classic TBC had at least 2-3 paladins to get the buffs.
As a feral druid my self I know that ferals can do great DPS and sometimes top DPS. But they are not a class you bring to do max DPS. You bring a feral druid to get the druid buffs and specifically the 3% crit aura buff.
Currently in phase 3, Black temple and Mount Hyjal, Feral dps is 8th on damage ( https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1011#dataset=99 ). That doesn't mean you don't bring one, because you do.
And, it's because of heavy combat log use and simulating that ferals have been able to excel in classic wow. I mean, we still use a lvl 40 helm in TBC, were max lvl is 70. You can join the druid discord if you want and you will see a lot of people theorycrafting and playing feral druid in hardcore guilds.
And we don't use DPS meter to beat things, we use combat logs to see information and from that come up with theories. You still heavily need skill to beat things. You don't automatically gain skill because you have a DPS meter on screen xD
It's important to recognize the difference between "DPS Meters" and "Combat Tracking". Irresponsible DPS Meter usage, like you said, causes people to ignore mechanics in favor of a bigger number on their meter. Combat tracking allows you to find who's ignoring the mechanics and call them out. DPS Meters won't watch a paladin's indirect damage through buffs, but proper Combat Tracking will prove their usefulness.
I used to have the same mindset as you. I played a shield spec Enhancement Shaman in Classic WoW while leveling, something that pretty much nobody did. I love making my own builds, despite whatever the Metagame says. It was frustrating for me to get attacked for having 80% of the other DPS's meters, when its clear to me that being able to off-tank and off-heal is worth slightly lower damage numbers. This made me dislike damage meters/combat tracking, and agree with Steven Sharif's call on DPS meters/combat tracking in Ashes.
However, looking at other people's experiences like what @rikardp98 said, combat tracking just as often validates builds that are often seen as bad. I then had a guild group trying to get through Castle Nathria where combat tracking was absolutely imperative to see which idiots were consistently fucking up. This (along with @Noaani being pretty educational and convincing) changed my view.
IDK if you've played Overwatch and League of Legends, but Overwatch has damage meters only and League of Legends has combat tracking. Overwatch is infinitely more toxic when it comes to your impact. Because Overwatch only tracks a few stats, people get flamed for incorrect reasons based on the limited stats. There's plenty of flaming in League of Legends, but people don't care nearly as much about things like your raw damage numbers.
DPS meters can enable some fun competition and some toxic idiots. Combat tracking enables data-driven decisions that allow innovators to make an impact on the meta and saves time for the whole raid group.
You claim that support classes won't work with combat trackers, and that somehow the combination of the two will create toxicity. Going back to EQ2, the game with combat tracker use on par with (or greater than) WoW but with no toxicity. The game has 4 full support classes - yet still no toxicity due to combat trackers.
I al really curious as to where your statement that support classes and combat trackers will cause toxicity, as actual proof indicates it is not the case. All that is needed is for people playing support classes to understand that they will not be top DPS and not be upset by that (this seems to be your issue here, honestly), and people running pick up content to understand the value of support classes.
I mean, by this logic, people wouldn't be taking tanks or healers either, as they are usually at the bottom of a DPS reading. People understand that they perform a function that is not DPS, and so generally have no problem bringing one of each along.
I see no reason at all to assume the above would not be the same with support classes - especially considering actual events in past games points to exactly that happening.
Pushing to save time is a key aspect of toxicity in MMORPGs.
This whole thing makes no sense - as per usual.
How do you know who is ignoring mechanics? More importantly, how do you know the impact of them ignoring mechanics? Because some mechanics can be ignored by some characters some of the time, and sometimes that is needed in order to successfully defeat an encounter.
Without a combat tracker, how do you know who should and who shouldn't be ignoring which mechanics, and which mechanics everyone should be paying attention to, which no one should pay attention to, how often those that we should pay attention to need to be properly dealt with vs how often they can be ignored and then how specifically do we have all of that information broken down in a per-character basis?
Second, what the hell do augments have to do with any of this? Literally nothing.
Pushing to save time is only a cause of toxicity if most people do not wish to push for time. If everyone present bar one wishes to push for time, then it is NOT pushing for time that causes that toxicity.
This is why people that wish to play the game in a top end manner should not mix with those that do not wish to do so, and those that wish to not push themselves need to understand that this means not running content that requires one to push oneself.
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The key aspect you are talking about above that causes toxicity is not pushing for time, it is friction among players.
To you, someone that never wants to push them self, this means that when you are grouped with people that do wish to push, toxicity ensues. You see this as the push being the cause of toxicity, when in fact it is the friction between those wishing to push and those not willing to push. If those wishing to push for time were playing only with others that are likeminded, there is no toxicity to be had - and as such the statement that pushing for time causes toxicity is as false as the statement that combat trackers cause toxicity.
Toxicity is caused by friction between players wanting to do things differently, and not understanding when they need to acquiesce to the other perspective.
Basically, toxicity is caused by players that refuse to compromise.
If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time. If the creators of the game push this sort of incentive then anyone who wants to play the game to chill or to have his character be viable in terms of mechanics will be considered toxic because he isn't filling up the all mighty DPS meter
If DPS meters are banned then that sort of incentive is actually discouraged and players wont have to force themselves or their builds to measure up to any kind of meter and only people who hack DPS meters into the game will be considered toxic for 1. hacking the game 2. for forcing players to measure up to some meter which isn't supposed to be part of the game.
So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic.
So this whole thread is all about who'll have to compromise. Do we want to force the whole community to compromise with freedom, fun and diversity in exchange for a DPS meter or do we want to force the players who want DPS meters to compromise the DPS meter in exchange to play the game.
You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising. While that shouldn't ever be case when we are talking about something like an accessory. Players shouldn't be forced to use an accessory part of a game to be able to play the game in a way that isn't toxic.
The only reason people like DPS meters and combat trackers imo is because it's a carebear handholding tool. It tells players exactly what they need to do to be able to complete specific content. That's a bad formula and games like Souls games and old classic games prove that. Players don't need to be told what to do in a game to play the game properly. They have fun without that and they can figure out where a problem is coming from even without that.
On the other thing which Dygz mentioned and you didn't understand at all - he is right. Augments will tell us who is ignoring mechanics because players who choose to worship the DPS meter will mostly choose augments which increase DPS. By this it will be evident that he is ignoring mechanics
A combat tracker will not do this.
Players will do this regardless.
Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions.
They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have.
If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things.
Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that. That isn't really how it all works.
If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish.
Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve.
In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you.
The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that.
In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why. People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic.
If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you.
This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic).
The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can.
When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters.
The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community.
If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality.
Lets take for example this web guide for WoW Raids https://www.icy-veins.com/tbc-classic/raid-composition-guide
It says at one point:
"Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows:
Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay.
Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress.
Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis."
Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out.
If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc.
As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community.
DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking.
You can't just make wild accusations of what will happen in a game with combat trackers when there are many games that make use of trackers and the thing you are saying will happen simply hasn't happened.
Regardless of combat tracker use, players will have a general expectation of others. If there were no combat trackers, raids would still take along as much DPS as they can, because the object of any and all raid encounters is to reduce the targets hit points to zero. The way to do this is to deal damage to them, so the point of a raid is to bring along as many high damage dealing classes as possible, and then the tanks needed to keep mobs off those damage dealers, and the healers needed to keep everyone alive.
If you want things like a need to reduce DPS, or kiting, or anything else that you talked about, that is a matter of encounter design, not a case of combat trackers. Even without combat trackers, the goal of the encounter will be the same (reduce target to zero hit points), and so the set up for the raid will still be dictated by as much DPS as possible built around the tanks and healers needed.
I have played a number of games that have encounters that have deviated away from the basic MAX DPS paradigm. One in particular set an actual cap on how much DPS the raid as a whole could do to the boss, and any more than that would see a wipe. I have seen encounters where CC was absolutely king. Encounters where kiting is required, encounters where mana management is all that matters. Basically, encounters that don't just require DPS and following a script.
The thing is, these encounters are all that way due to the encounter. That is what top end encounters are all about - throwing something different at players.
The other thing with all of these encounters - combat trackers are key to understanding what is going on. Without combat trackers, complex encounters like this straight up will not exist. No.
Encounter design narrows down thinking.
But that is what it is supposed to do.
Encounters are puzzles. Developers give players a puzzle that usually only has one path to solving. Players think narrow because there usually is only that one path - so this is all as it should be.