Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
May well be.
A combat tracker will assist you with that, as well.
― Plato
It may well be, but I honestly have no idea what their goal is. I've still yet to see a valid reason to be against all combat trackers.
You have never, not a single time, gone back in your arguments. I doubt anyone can change your mind on ANY subject anyway.
That kinda happens when you arrive at a conclusion through logic and reasoning with real data, but given enough time of brainwashing someone and even they will start to believe that earth is flat
― Plato
Actually, it has happened a few times on these forums.
One that comes to mind - and may be easy to find - is that I originally wanted the name "tank" changed. I was convinced that it doesn't matter at all, and now I don't care if it is changed, and think Intrepid have better things to spend their time on (and I was able to have bit of fun on that thread after changing my mind).
However, as eluded to above, this is a subjective thing. Combat tracker usefulness is objective, not subjective. Players using combat trackers make games better, this is a fact.
Not only have I used them to make a number of games I have played better, but even Margret has unwittingly pointed out how much better player feedback is when the players in question have access to combat trackers.
If you want to convince me of something subjective, have at it. I don't tend to have strong opinions one way or the other on subjective things.
If you want to change my opinion on something objective, however, you had better bring more objective fact to that discussion than I do - something no one in this thread (Steven included) has managed to do.
I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class.
DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build.
By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy.
Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it.
Yes having a DPS meter active during combat will make some people "blind", but these people won't last long in a guild. If you have a guild mate that only cares about doing maximum damage and stop doing mechanics and won't listen to calls because of that, any decent guild will kick that player. We had a warlock that didn't watch his threat meter (on a boss were threat is a big thing, hydross in TBC) and almost every pull he took threat. He blamed the tanks and hunters (misdirections) but the facts were that he started to DPS way to soon, popped his CDs before boss was in place, didn't use the threat reset warlocks has and there for pulled threat. We got the correct information and found out that he was talking bullshit because we had the logs with the facts. After that he no longer got invited to the raids.
And people that uses combat trackers also knows that some classes you bring to a raid is not there to DPS but are there to give buffs and support, that is why you bring a shadow priest and a moonkin to raids in TBC. Stop assuming that we don't know that some classes have jobs other than doing DPS.
"but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy."
First of all, DPS isn't an exact number to evaluate a curtain build. Yes it can show it's potential but you also have to consider what that build brings to the raid, such as Buffs and debuffs. And how will you be able to determine a builds efficiency without exact numbers?
Toxic people will always find a way to try and push other people to the ground. I think it's better to give people correct information about a curtain build or class to help you and others push back at toxic people, because usually toxic people are in the wrong.
And if you remove DPS meter people are going to compare gear. So let's remove gear as well!! Well then people are going to compare how you have used you talents points, so let's remove them! Now people are going to compare what abilities you have on your bar, let's remove them..... The comparison argument is the worst argument of them all. Comparison and competition is a great way to evolve and try new things and finding new metas. Competition breeds excellence, or something like that xD
My point is you are making a score. Even if your class brings more to the table, if it's not reflected in the score, then the game is not acknowledging it. By giving a score to one aspect of the class, you are raising it above the other aspects that aren't being scored.
DPS meters give you an exact number. You may know that classes bring other benefits but you can't quantify them. Since it can't be quantified, you can't compare it in the same ways as you can compare a dps number.
Well that's because DPS meter only shows Damage Per Second? But as you may have read we want Combat Trackers that shows everything. Yes DPS meter is a part of that and people will find a way to get a meter on the screen during combat, but that's not really what we are after. And technically score isn't the problem? The real problem is how people treat the score, so removing the score won't fix the problem.
What do you mean "then the game is not acknowledging it."? The game acknowledging everything? It's individual people that may not acknowledge it, which means that those people need to learn more about the game
And, we can quantify what classes being to the table. Not in a simple format as a DPS meter but you can see it in the logs.
That's the point.
Yes, how people treat the scores is the problem but no, removing the score does fix the issue it creates.
Yes, people aren't acknowledging it because of how the game is scoring as well as any stigma associated with what is being scored.
No, you can't quantify it's effectiveness by seeing it was used in the logs. Even if you could, it's effectiveness would be situational and couldn't be accurately calculated in a static test environment. Even if you could do that, there would still be stigmas attached to these different scores, making certain ones more desirable, kind of like kills and assists in some games. Just because they are both recorded, people generally rate kills higher than assists.
As I said, this all comes down to perception. Just because you know how to parse the data, doesn't mean others do and however the game scores players, even if it's unintentional, is how it encourages them to play. By removing he score, you remove any incentive to pursue it. This doesn't remove any incentive to play your role well as the game has other inceptives to encourage you to succeed.
By removing DPS meters you remove information not a problem. As we have established, DPS meter isn't the problem, but Toxic people are the problem. You can't state that the DPS meter is the problem then remove it when your statement is wrong. I also want to mention that the game already as a personal combat logger which shows your damage done and damage taken, and from that you can manually calculate your DPS. So by removing DPS meters (or combat trackers) people will just replace it with a less inaccurate number that they have calculated themselves.
Not sure what you mean with game scoring?
Have you ever seen a combat log? It shows you everything, so every effectives a class or build brings to the raid will be shown. If that is buffs to party members or debuffs to the boss, it will be shown. Yes it's hard to show that in a easy way as DPS but people will make guides, videos, forums, discord channels all dedicated to these things and all you have to do (if you want to) look up some guids and see what you want to do. Yes you can always go into a raid and test your own build and your own rotation (which i like to do) to see how it is. With a combat tracker you can then share your findings with other by showing them your rotation and back up your claims with facts.
Most top end players knows how to parse data, casual players shouldn't care to much about combat trackers. And if you are a casual player and find you self in a group that demands DPS meters and curtain DPS score, then leave. That's it. Leave. Find a group/guild/players that have a similar mind set as you and play with them. It's not that hard.
Explain to me why this is bad.
If we assume combat trackers only work within a guild, where is the harm in this friendly competition?
As to them being "fair", every aspect of a class can be quantified. Sure, I may out DPS you, but that is fine because you have some buffs that I don't have that we are able to quantify - if we chose to do so.
Or perhaps instead of a DPS only readout, we have one that lists how long each player had enemies CC'd, and how many CC's each player broke.
If combat trackers are able to be used openly, DPS players compete with each other on DPS, healers can fight over HPS, or how many debuffs they remove, utility can compete on how much DPS they add to others, or how much damage they prevent others taking, or how long they have mobs CC'd.
The guild can even have a score applied to various things and have the combat tracker list each player in the guild by their score. It could be as simple as 1 point for each point of damage or healing done, -1 point for each point of damage taken (other than tanks), 10 points for every second a mob is CC'd, -10 for every CC you break and 10 points for a cleanse.
It could also be far more complex than this, with different points values attributed to dealing damage to different mobs, cleanses etc, and perhaps even make it so that points earned via buffs are divided between the appropriate players.
All of this is possible in a good combat tracker.
While it is absolutely probable that most guilds wouldn't use them to this extent, that leaves your argument as being that people will misuse combat trackers and so they shouldn't exist. My response to this is simply that if they are added as a partner the game, these things can all be built in and thus be far more likely to be used.
You also remove the scoreboard, which is the problem.
I disagree that the issue is just "toxic" people. If the game gives you a score for doing something then it's encouraging you to do it.
If you need help seeing what i'm talking about what i call it a score then lets look at this picture:
This resembles a scoreboard. By displaying the information in this manner, it's encouraging players to focus on this number, which as we agreed, doesn't represent everything. Even if that pally should be fine with their damage output because of the utility they are bringing, this board is still putting them in 7th place. Naturally, people want to be in first as well as see bigger numbers, which is why it can be an issue to display the information in this manner.
The combat log does not turn your damage info into a score and as you know, shows more than just your damage.
This conversation has nothing to do with people feeling inadequate in groups. It's an issue with the game over emphasizing information, which as we discussed, doesn't represent the whole picture.
So, no ranked arena then?
We can get rid of PvP seasons, as that is just a ranking system.
Gear is just a ranking system based on your in game activities.
While that last one may be a stretch, the first two are not.
If the game has a ranking system, I fail to see how anyone can argue against other ranking systems.
The game doesn't over emphasizing anything. The game takes every value into account. That specific DPS meter over emphasizing dps because that's what it was made to do. Combat Trackers is made to show everything, and that's what we want. We don't want a simple DPS meter that only shows damage (or healing) we want (and will have) a combat tracker that is easy to understand and give us useful information we can use to improve and understand the game better.
You are stuck in "DPS meters are bad", and yes they are bad if that's the only thing you are using. But that's not what we are talking about here. Yes the thread is called DPS meter mega thread, but that's because Steven doesn't know what s combat trackers is or what it does.
Here is a standard log from a pug i did yesterday
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/d1yv3wPkLBb8pzt7#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=summary
You can see damage done, damage taken, healing, threat, buffs on players, buffs on boss, debuffs on players, debuffs on boss, interrupted, resources (mana and health gain and loss), dispels, casts and more. Yes it's a lot of information and it's easy to get stuck on DPS and what not, but that's not the fault of the information but the fault of you.
And btw, you can also look at rankings. Where you can compare yourself too other players that play the same class and the same build. I don't personally care that much about it but it's always fun to compare and see how you stack up to the best of the best. Healing rankings are very weird though xD
I never said there was anything wrong with scoreboards in general or encouraging players to do something
The issue is how it's ranking players. As you know, dps isn't the sole decider of a classes effectiveness. Despite that, dps meters rank players by there dps which over emphasizes it.
The issue isn't how you will use them. It's how it displays information and what it naturally encourages.
That site is proving my point as it focuses a lot on dps, hps, and damage taken. As we said, those don't tell you everything. Despite all the information it records, it is still emphasizing and ranking the groups off these stats.
Believing No DPS meter = No Ultra "Toxic" Elitist who will ditch whoever doesn't meet their Gear, Class, Build standards is ludicrous.
The good ol' blaming the tool instead of its bad user.
Aren't we all sinners?
I get it (sort of) among people you don't really know. I think combat trackers in pick up content is a bad idea, generally speaking. However, when you have a guild full of people that all understand what is going on, when they understand that only a half dozen or so of the people present are full DPS builds and so no one else has a shot at beating them in that shpere, but where they all have their own, I really can't see the issue.
Even if we did assume there was an issue among friends, it isn't an insurmountable issue.
Based on what you are saying, your issue isn't with combat trackers as a whole, it isn't with the data that is collected, it is with the data that get spit out of said combat tracker for easy player digestion.
This is really easy to get around. If Intrepid add it to the game themselves, they can make it in a way where it wont rank people just by DPS at all. Make it so guilds can select what is most important to them (survivability, speed, accuracy with mechanics, whatever), and have the built in tracker spit out information to the raid based on that, leaving the details there for those that want details (people that want to look closer at the data than a simple score will know what they are looking at).
All of a sudden, people are ranked by how well they did on the encounter based on what the guild values.
This is something that could ONLY happen if Intrepid build the tracker in to the game themselves.
It isn't as much about hiding knowledge, it's about not highlighting it. Meters make players compare each other by one aspect of their class but classes aren't supposed to be balanced around one aspect.
Yes, I agree with the metrics you listed. I think anything that is role agnostics is a good metric to add.
If they aren't planning on tracking those metrics then I agree they should.
I suppose you are saying that people will not take this in consideration?
And will be indulced to error by the DPS meter?
Leading people to ignore supporting/utility potential (offensive/defensive buffs/debuff, Heals, Barriers mobility to deal with mechanics and etc)?
Wouldn't that in the end simple be their own fault in the way they approach the tool?
Trying to get through the numbers in DPS meter the worth of the character for the encounter instead of simple its damage output?
it's simple blaming the very useful tool instead of the bad user.
Aren't we all sinners?
Back in EQ2, the way the games combat system is set up, utility classes had most of their good buffs work only within the group, as opposed to just anyone (or everyone) in the raid.
This left us with a group with two or three caster DPS, two utility and a healer (and sometimes a debuffer if we only had two caster DPS, or a summoner).
There was also a similar setup in another group for melee DPS.
I usually topped the parse, and this was expected. If one of the other DPS beat me, gratz to them. If the two or three of the caster DPS were at the top, then we all knew it was a full group effort - everyone in the raid knew it was as much the utility as it was us DPS. It was more common to hear "Holy shit, nice work {bard}" than it was to hear people call out us DPS for hitting the top spot.
If one of my support were away for the raid, the expectation would be that I wouldn't top the parse, but the melee would. This wasn't an issue, and I see no reason why anyone would think it is.
Anyone that just looks at DPS and attributes it all to that one player really shouldn't be playing a game with a complex combat system.
I'm not saying people wont take things into consideration or that meters might lead players to failure. I'm just saying they give you a bias towards whatever you are getting scored on, which isn't representative of the build as a whole.
I think the real issue is culture we have that sees it as a scoring system. If it was only seen as a tool, then I don't think there would be a problem.
if a combat tracker is incapable of posting pure DPS numbers, but instead can only post a breakdown of general performance based on a number of factors, this issue is just gone.
Well if you spend more than a second looking at that site you would find much more than just damage xD
Buffs on player gained by friendly
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/d1yv3wPkLBb8pzt7#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=auras
Debuffs on enemy
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/d1yv3wPkLBb8pzt7#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=auras&spells=debuffs&hostility=1
Interruptes
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/d1yv3wPkLBb8pzt7#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=interrupts&start=0&end=13607175
Mana
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/d1yv3wPkLBb8pzt7#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=resources&start=0&end=13607175&spell=100
You can also see a replay for the final boss in black temple
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/d1yv3wPkLBb8pzt7#view=replay&fight=last
And that image you shared. That's an addon called details. That's pretty good addon when it comes to combat information. It shows DPS, hps, damage taken, dispell, friendly fire, ans more. So it's up to you how you want to see the numbers.
The problem is, the only way that these things can be moved forward is if Intrepid implement a tracker them self.
The worst thing for everyone that Intrepid can do is just ignore trackers. If they do this, trackers will exist in Ashes in a manner somewhere between how they exist in FFXIV and WoW - and I don't think anyone thinks that is the best thing for the game.
Enrage mechanics should have a lot of breathing room and should be used only as prevention for doing content intended for 40 people as 5
There should never be timed mechanics (like after x seconds in a fight this happens) because that creates a dps check, because people will want to zerg those bosses before that mechanic happens to completely avoid it
Put more emphasis on personal responsibility and avoid stacking mechanics (like having a mechanic that deals more damage every time the boss does it)
Argue about this all you want, but the fact is that if developers create dps checks then it is hypocritical for them to fight against dps meters
― Plato
EQ2 had very few mobs with a DPS check, and had no enrage timer at all (it's DPS checks were more fluid, natural). The need for combat trackers is not based on the need for DPS checks.
However, the very fact that developers are adding in a loot system that scales with how "well" you do in a raid is enough for Intrepid to be hypocritical if they fail to add a combat tracker.