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Content Creators and Mass, Low-Level Griefing
CaptnChuck
Member
Introduction:
I made a post about this earlier, but since I didn't go into detail and put enough effort into organizing everything properly, people assumed that I was "white-knighting" content creators.
First of all, if you believe that, Content Creators are not different from normal players and are unnecessary for a game to be successful, then read the section below this and if that doesn't change your mind, then I don't think there is any point in talking to you anymore and you should leave this post, as you clearly don't know anything.
If you are the type of person that thinks that, Content Creators are different from normal players but should be treated similarly and that their presence is valuable for every game in the current era, then this post is for you.
Before reading this post, I highly recommend reading this first: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44956
It explains, in detail, why streamer privilege won't exist to a large extent in AoC. Now that you've cleared the salt from your head and are ready to look at things with an objective point of view, let us begin.
Importance of Content Creators:
I know, i know, doesn't this section show that I'm a white knight? Not so much. You need to understand this clearly before we move on.
Times have changed. The success of most games nowadays is proportional to the amount of content creators for that game. Content creators are responsible for increasing the popularity of a game.
The popularity of AoC, skyrocketed after Lazy Peon's recent video. Streamers like Asmongold, Summit, and Tim brought a large amount of viewers to the game after reacting to Lazy Peon's video and interviewing Steven.
The amount of people that were brought in by these creators has been shown in the straw poll below:
https://strawpoll.com/qjojxcyub
So for those of you who are after facts, there you go. Content Creators are important to all games. Period. For those of you who think that they are exactly like normal players, you're incorrect. The straw poll shows why. Asmongold and Lazy Peon, together, brought a HUGE amount of players into the game. This means that their value is proportional to the number of players that they brought in. So they are NOT normal players. They are worth THOUSANDS of normal players.
(From here on out, I'll be talking about Streamers only, as they play in front of a live audience while other content creators don't.)
If a streamer is unable to enjoy the game, it will portray negatively to their viewers. Therefore, it is in your best interest to ensure that their popularity does not have a severe effect on their in game experience. As streamers are broadcasting to a live-audience, they are VERY often the target of griefing/ghosting. I'm not going to explain those terms here, but I suggest you look it up.
Almost every game right now has ways to prevent the popularity of streamers from affecting their gameplay.
So now that you've understood the impact of content creators, and why its important to ensure that their popularity does not affect their gameplay, lets move to the next section.
Problem:
When streamers like Asmongold move to a server, they bring THOUSANDS of viewers with them.
Now imagine this situation clearly:
Say Asmongold creates a new character on a server. Thousands of his viewers, will also do the same. They will spawn in the same starting area as him, and it will become a mess. Yes, upon dying, you respawn at the nearest respawn location. But here's the thing, because its somewhat near to where you died, the players can just chase you down. So effectively, you will just end up spending your entire time running from other players that want to grief you. This will just create an extremely negative gameplay experience for Asmongold, and it will reflect negatively to his viewerbase.
However, there is a relatively easy fix for this.
Solution: (READ CAREFULLY BEFORE COMMENTING. PLEASE.)
Right now, when a player dies, they resurrect at a random respawn point in the node/ZOI. To fix the problem, simply make it so that a player has AN OPTION upon death to either, resurrect at a nearby respawn location like USUAL, or resurrect at a RANDOM ONE in the world. ITS RANDOM. They don't get to choose, it just respawns them at a random respawn point on the map. So if a streamer is getting spawn camped, they have an option to respawn elsewhere on the world and avoid it. This will completely remove any sort of mass, low-level griefing, as distance matters in this game. It doesn't affect the playerbase whatsoever, but it gives streamers a lot of room to breathe as they won't have to spend their entire time running away from other players.
EDIT: This option should only be available when the family system has a dual cd, which Steven said he was considering. This option should also only appear after being killed in PvP several times in a row, around 2 or 3 times, by non-party and non-guild members.
Another solution would be to limit the random respawn nodes to the nodes in the same continent as you, so that this doesn't cause the world to appear smaller than it actually is.
Also, another change would be to only allow this until a certain level, say lvl10 or 20. After that, this option shouldn't be available anymore.
That is all. I don't expect this change to affect 99% of the players, as most people will not want to resurrect at a random location on the map unless they're getting heavily spawn camped.
I made a post about this earlier, but since I didn't go into detail and put enough effort into organizing everything properly, people assumed that I was "white-knighting" content creators.
First of all, if you believe that, Content Creators are not different from normal players and are unnecessary for a game to be successful, then read the section below this and if that doesn't change your mind, then I don't think there is any point in talking to you anymore and you should leave this post, as you clearly don't know anything.
If you are the type of person that thinks that, Content Creators are different from normal players but should be treated similarly and that their presence is valuable for every game in the current era, then this post is for you.
Before reading this post, I highly recommend reading this first: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44956
It explains, in detail, why streamer privilege won't exist to a large extent in AoC. Now that you've cleared the salt from your head and are ready to look at things with an objective point of view, let us begin.
Importance of Content Creators:
I know, i know, doesn't this section show that I'm a white knight? Not so much. You need to understand this clearly before we move on.
Times have changed. The success of most games nowadays is proportional to the amount of content creators for that game. Content creators are responsible for increasing the popularity of a game.
The popularity of AoC, skyrocketed after Lazy Peon's recent video. Streamers like Asmongold, Summit, and Tim brought a large amount of viewers to the game after reacting to Lazy Peon's video and interviewing Steven.
The amount of people that were brought in by these creators has been shown in the straw poll below:
https://strawpoll.com/qjojxcyub
So for those of you who are after facts, there you go. Content Creators are important to all games. Period. For those of you who think that they are exactly like normal players, you're incorrect. The straw poll shows why. Asmongold and Lazy Peon, together, brought a HUGE amount of players into the game. This means that their value is proportional to the number of players that they brought in. So they are NOT normal players. They are worth THOUSANDS of normal players.
(From here on out, I'll be talking about Streamers only, as they play in front of a live audience while other content creators don't.)
If a streamer is unable to enjoy the game, it will portray negatively to their viewers. Therefore, it is in your best interest to ensure that their popularity does not have a severe effect on their in game experience. As streamers are broadcasting to a live-audience, they are VERY often the target of griefing/ghosting. I'm not going to explain those terms here, but I suggest you look it up.
Almost every game right now has ways to prevent the popularity of streamers from affecting their gameplay.
So now that you've understood the impact of content creators, and why its important to ensure that their popularity does not affect their gameplay, lets move to the next section.
Problem:
When streamers like Asmongold move to a server, they bring THOUSANDS of viewers with them.
Now imagine this situation clearly:
Say Asmongold creates a new character on a server. Thousands of his viewers, will also do the same. They will spawn in the same starting area as him, and it will become a mess. Yes, upon dying, you respawn at the nearest respawn location. But here's the thing, because its somewhat near to where you died, the players can just chase you down. So effectively, you will just end up spending your entire time running from other players that want to grief you. This will just create an extremely negative gameplay experience for Asmongold, and it will reflect negatively to his viewerbase.
However, there is a relatively easy fix for this.
Solution: (READ CAREFULLY BEFORE COMMENTING. PLEASE.)
Right now, when a player dies, they resurrect at a random respawn point in the node/ZOI. To fix the problem, simply make it so that a player has AN OPTION upon death to either, resurrect at a nearby respawn location like USUAL, or resurrect at a RANDOM ONE in the world. ITS RANDOM. They don't get to choose, it just respawns them at a random respawn point on the map. So if a streamer is getting spawn camped, they have an option to respawn elsewhere on the world and avoid it. This will completely remove any sort of mass, low-level griefing, as distance matters in this game. It doesn't affect the playerbase whatsoever, but it gives streamers a lot of room to breathe as they won't have to spend their entire time running away from other players.
EDIT: This option should only be available when the family system has a dual cd, which Steven said he was considering. This option should also only appear after being killed in PvP several times in a row, around 2 or 3 times, by non-party and non-guild members.
Another solution would be to limit the random respawn nodes to the nodes in the same continent as you, so that this doesn't cause the world to appear smaller than it actually is.
Also, another change would be to only allow this until a certain level, say lvl10 or 20. After that, this option shouldn't be available anymore.
That is all. I don't expect this change to affect 99% of the players, as most people will not want to resurrect at a random location on the map unless they're getting heavily spawn camped.
1
Comments
I've explained before, straw polls are pointless because most people won't even see it to vote.
Ashes will be a group game. It will be faster to level in groups. If a Streamer wants to solo content and stream it live in a PvX Game, they should understand the risks. If you make respawn places random from normal deaths, then parties will have a nightmare time trying to regroup. Watching a Streamer running around trying to locate their group would be laughable and time consuming at the same time.
No Content Creator wants to bore their viewers.
I don't think it's fair to assume that the Kickstarter numbers are inaccurate while simultaneously suggesting that the Asmongold and TheLazyPeon numbers are accurate. If we can say that only 499/10,000 ~ 5% of the Kickstarter people took the poll, can we assume the same ratio for people clicking Asmongold and TheLazyPeon, and that they've brought in roughly 20x the number shown in the poll?
I'm just being argumentative
@CaptnChuck My suggestion to fix mass low-level griefing is to simply disable all PVP until players reach a certain level, like level 10. It's been suggested that playing 4-6 hours a day for 45 days would get a player to 50. If we assume lower levels take less time (say 3 hours per level?), then it might take players close to 30 hours before they reach level 10. That's plenty of time to allow players to adventure, learn the game, learn their class, and be left alone before being forced into the deep waters of PVP combat.
It wont matter when PvP is allowed. If someone wants to PvP someone else then they should be allowed and will simply wait until the opportunities arrive.
I do not think we should change game fundamentals due to streamer privilege. Streamers stream RTS Games and those players dont have invulnerability. In no way should a PvX MMO be mollycoddled due to streamers.
Streamers should stream the game, not exploit the game.
For christ's sake man, obviously EVERYONE didn't vote on the strawpoll. The straw poll merely shows the proportion of viewers that came from each section.
Also, I CLEARLY mentioned in my post that players should be given A CHOICE, to either resurrect at a nearby respawn location or to resurrect at a random one across the world. You're not even reading my post and you're commenting. Stop making yourself look like a fool.
Way too much of a change. There is no need to change the game to that extent in order to appeal to streamers. The minor change I suggested above is more than enough.
They should just make a streamer server where the streamers can go with all of the limitations removed. They can have hundred thousand player guilds if they want. I just don't want to play on a server with that kind of disturbance in the game.
Having a server of that garbage will simply remove the normal players from having to deal with that.
Streamers aren't normal players. The Experience shouldn't be tailored to them, but something needs to be done about the kind of chaos they will bring to a server. Avoiding their server is the only current way, but removing the ability by having 1 uncapped server is better.
U.S. East
Are you ok? I just asked to change a minor feature when it comes to respawns. I'm not turning the WHOLE WORLD upside down for streamers. You're just disagreeing with me for the sake of doing so. Did you not read my intro? I clearly asked people like you to leave and not bother to type.
Again, way too big of a change. I don't think you have to create a streamers' server in order to fix this issue as its only prevalent during the early levels. Did you guys even read my solution? Its so simple and easy to implement and it does not affect the majority of players in any significant way.
U.S. East
It solves the issue as you can just start questing in the random location you just spawned at. You don't have to worry about having people run you down and grief you. After you gain a few levels, you can travel back and you won't have to worry about low level griefers anymore. Obviously there are other solutions to it. You could also just disable PvP in starter zones as well but its a bit of a major change and I'm not sure if you should change the game to that extent, in order to accommodate streamers.
A streamer server won't fix this issue though. As for the other problems you're talking about, would you mind naming some for me?
I have addressed a lot of them in this post right here:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44956
How would you be able to abuse it? You'll be teleported to a RANDOM respawn point on the map, which means that you'll be far away from your group. We are not talking about 3 or 4 respawn points here. We are talking about over a 100 of them. Also, you cannot keep dying due to the negative exp. It will reduce your stats, gear durability and gear proficiency as well. So what are you talking about?
Sure the publicity is helpful, but any type of publicity brings attention to the game. Even a streamer shouting that Ashes was going to flop would still spark curiosity in people, and most people have enough sense to know that streamers have a much different experience than they ever will, so why would they base their idea of the game on a type of experience they’ll never share?
I stopped reading past this point as you clearly didn't read my INTRODUCTION properly. If you think that they're unnecessary in today's time, after all that explanation and stats, turn away from this post and don't comment. I clearly stated this in my post.
The notion that the streamers are of value proportional to the "fans" they have is ridiculous.
The notion that streamers bring in players to the game is somewhat true, but the amount on itself is not equal to the number of followers that streamer has.
There's a variable that many of those followers have checked out the game before the streamer did, and they commented on the twitch chat for him to make a reaction to it. So the interest was there regardless of the streamer.
And about the thing:
It's not true.
Look at FF14 and EVE online. They have very little to no content creators, yet the games are doing extremely fine as they are.
I'd also like to point out.
What is the reason people go to twitch for games? Aside from tournaments, and watching massive fights, what is the main reason they follow people like Asmongold? I've seen his streams, most of the time the people that are following him are literally doing nothing, just moving about. If you ask me those aren't players that are enjoying the game they're playing. They're literally waiting for the streamer to make some sort of a content, a competition they can participate in, anything that's not currently in the game. And only a handful of those people will actually get to participate in it. Aside from that, they're simply watching his reactions to certain topics that pop up now and then.
Currently I'm playing FF14. And the only streams I've checked out of this game, are reaction videos to the content that I did, and found it extremely good, AFTER I DID IT. But I never lingered long enough to be following them, and watch them play when I can play for myself lol.
There's certain enjoyment that comes watching streamers, for times like when I'm eating, and not doing anything else. Well, these are my thoughts.
Here you say that you would be teleported to a random respawn point but you're advocating to have the choice of choosing where you spawn? I'm not sure which you're advocating for but I'm assuming it's for the ability to choose where you spawn after you get killed in pvp.
If that's the case, what's stopping those griefers from killing themselves to spawn where the streamer spawns?
also if there's people griefing there will also be people defending so it should even out anyways and if the griefers keep griefing then they will continue to accumulate negative bonuses to their stats which effectively will render them useless in pvp.
I don't see how this is a big issue and if it was I don't see how adding the option to choose where you spawn would solve the issue.
if you are far away from 1 objective or friend you can kill yourself until you are in close range, and since the durability of the equipment only goes down if you are using it, you technically abuse it easily you may also lose exp but exchanging exp for a potential raid boss or objective its worth the try.
You don't have to turn the whole world around for streamers. All I'm suggesting is to add the OPTION to respawn at a random respawn point on the map instead of respawning at a nearby one. Am i completely changing the game and affecting the playerbase by adding that one option? No.
How can you compare this game to FF14? There is no open world PvP in FF14. Any content creator playing the game won't be affected by any sort of griefing or ghosting, which means that there won't be a negative influence on their viewers. Also, FF14 is successful, but not as much as WoW and the reason for that is because of the lack of content creators for the game. Plain and Simple.
So I see what you mean when being able to choose where you spawn. Just to clarify, you want streamers to be able to choose but regular people that don't stream to not be able to choose?
So how big of a streamer do I need to be to get that perk?
Also that won't completely solve the issue because even though it might help in the early levels because it won't really matter where you start, in the later levels and once you've set yourself on a node you can't just simply move to another location. Remember that distance matters in this game so even if a streamer were to be griefed they wouldn't spawn across the map and leave their house and resources behind just like that. And if they are given the perk to be able to transfer resources like that then they would easily be able to abuse it as there would be no need for caravans for streamers.
Also, who's to say that there isn't more griefers waiting for them wherever they spawn?
Either way I don't think giving them that option would solve that problem.
They are unnecessary. People watch streams because they find the streamer entertaining or highly skilled or there’s something to be gained from watching. But they aren’t watching streams to experience the game. That’s something you can ONLY do when you play a game yourself.
I can watch streamers play Monster Hunter, League of Legends, Overwatch, Magic the Gathering, D&D, DOTA, WoW, and I can enjoy watching those streams. That doesn’t mean anything the streamer does will make me enjoy or dislike the game any more than I do already.
Asmongold will be leveling with most likely with other guys (MConnel, etc) he will chose a node with his guild that will be in close proximity of him.
i like asmon but do you think he needs a system to help him?
READ MY POST CAREFULLY. I've been advocating for an option since the very beginning. You have a 1/103 chance of respawning where the streamers respawns, assuming that every node gets a respawn point. So no, good luck trying your chances that way. Also, did you forget about negative exp? You can't keep dying, it reduces your combat effectiveness and you also lose resources.
@ownerofglory
We're talking about a 1/103 chance here. Are you serious? If you get to respawn at the exact location where you want to go, then congrats, you won the odds.
Which creates additional issues. How are you going to filter the streamers vs normal players?
Are you going to add a button on player creation asking whether you're a streamer or normal player?
"Hey we're giving streamers more benefits, choose between these two."
Or are you going to be adding them manually in this streamer list that will have the option to teleport wherever they want upon death?
As far as this game goes in its current state, it also doesn't have open world PvP. It technically does, but nobody is going to be doing it considering the penalties that come with it.
That being said.
FF14 is successful.
WoW is successful, but dwindling.
How are you even tying the content creators to their success is beyond me. There isn't even correlation, much less cause. There's so many games with less content creators that are doing extremely fine. WoW is anomaly. You can't use it as basis for anything.
Please for the love of god, READ MY POST. Right now, if you die, you respawn at a nearby respawn location.
ALL IM ASKING, is for EVERYONE to have AN OPTION to either respawn at a nearby location like USUAL, OR respawn at a RANDOM ONE on the map. RANDOM ONE. You don't get to choose. Is it really that difficult to understand?You won't be able to abuse it if you only have a 1/103 chance of respawning at a node you want to go to.
I actually read your post twice and I never mentioned anything about repeatedly dying, if you read MY post then you would see that I posted twice and that the first post I was confused as to what you meant by being able to choose your spawn point in which I clarified on my second post which I am now assuming you haven't read. so here it is again.
So I see what you mean when being able to choose where you spawn. Just to clarify, you want streamers to be able to choose but regular people that don't stream to not be able to choose?
So how big of a streamer do I need to be to get that perk?
Also that won't completely solve the issue because even though it might help in the early levels because it won't really matter where you start, in the later levels and once you've set yourself on a node you can't just simply move to another location. Remember that distance matters in this game so even if a streamer were to be griefed they wouldn't spawn across the map and leave their house and resources behind just like that. And if they are given the perk to be able to transfer resources like that then they would easily be able to abuse it as there would be no need for caravans for streamers.
Also, who's to say that there isn't more griefers waiting for them wherever they spawn?
Either way I don't think giving them that option would solve that problem.
As I stated above, your solution only creates more problems.
edit: Which streamers will qualify for that? When the game launches there will be shitloads of streamers covering it, you plan to give all of them this? Even if they have 1 viewer?
Edit 2: Okay, now it seems you want everyone to have that option. Then I'm fine with what. Title is misleading.
having the option to spawn at a nearby node or a random one still doesn't solve the issue. If they are as big of a streamer as you make them out to be there will be people throughout all of the server attempting to grief them anyways and if they are attempting to accomplish a certain thing in the game then there's no point in spawning somewhere random as his destination would remain the same.
there's no detriment that I can see for adding that feature though so I'm indifferent about it if it's a random spawn point. Though don't think people won't do it because even if they get negative xp people won't care.
yes but it doesn't have to be the exact same if it is in walking distance i would consider being 2 nodes away a good trade and about the losing resources you can save them in your house, and as you mentioned if a player wants to risk losing stuff and becoming weaker just to kill a streamer i would think they are stupid.