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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Please Let Us Gift Something AoC!!!
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“Selling Crowns for gold 1:200, whisper me!”
“Gifting lootboxes, pm me”
Are you really, really gonna lie and say that’s fair play? That what’s spammed in ESO’s main city chats every day.
Streamers can play the game like everyone else. The devs can’t stop idiots from funneling gold to them for a chance to appear on stream.
Cash shop gifting has people buying gold with real money and that $ to currency transaction is no different than selling an account to someone else. You wouldn’t claim being able to buy leveling in the store is wrong and yet endorse a system where players pay other people to level their account would you?
RMT are between players, facilitated by sketchy websites usually, until you let them do their business ingame instead by letting them sell each other “gifts” and widening the pool of people who engage in them. RMTs are not the devs selling cosmetics to a player for that specific player to use.
Ashes absolutely won’t release with game-endorsed P2W or RMTs. Illegal markets, sure, you’re right those always exist. But I don’t accept that as justification to create game endorsed P2W and RMTs like you and the OP want to do via cash shop gifting, and this is where our ethics differ.
There is no such thing as pay to win in an MMO. There is only Pay to Advantage, and you can't eliminate it. IS can say all they want that there will be no P2W. But they can't stop it. You even admit that. So you agree with me. At best you can try to eliminate the obvious means of abusing it. Someone will find ways to get around it. You seem to also agree with that. So we are in agreement. Why are you then trying to argue with me?
The context of that quote is AoC won't engage in any kind of Pay to "win" systems. You can't buy buffs or armours or anything from their cash shop that would give you any advantage in game. I 100% Agree with that. Never said otherwise. This is also why Steven is not allowing for DPS meters and such types of Add-ons.
I 100% agree with Steven on this. They have only 1 means of paying to "win" as you would put it and that's paying $15/m to play the game. If you don't pay the sub, you don't play the game and you can't win at anything game related.
This doesn't however stop a player from engaging another player outside of the game and offering some kind of compensation for a dungeon run or for a piece of equipment. You can't stop that. That's been my point. You can set up systems to try and catch people who do this, which I also 100% support. I do not support any kind of RMT out side of paying for the game Subscription.
I agree. I have never said otherwise. I do not support that and I in no way have endorsed such things or stated I have any interest in engaging in such things.
No I have said that it is Pay to Advantage because there is no finish line. And Yes, I have owned a Game Shark which was one of the first Pay to Win concepts in which you could finish the game and Win with little effort. I have never made an argument to allow for any kind of Pay to win or Pay to Advantage system. I have only stated that despite all best efforts and intentions it will happen.
Look at your own quote of the defintion - ""In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage" - You just made my case for me. Call it semantics but I think language is important so the more appropriate phrase is "Pay to Advantage". Pay to Win is more inflammatory, it makes for a better buzz word, but it is inaccurate as your own statement concludes. You've just made my point for me. Thank You.
Again you agree with me. We are in agreement. I agree RMT will happen to some extent. That is all I have said. Systems that benefit or encourage RMT should not be used or allowed. I agree with that.
Let me explain my point about all those systems. They can all be used for RMT to some extent, therefore you can not eliminate RMT. As long as players can trade items or gold, someone can make a deal out of game to exchange items or gold for money. As long as players can sell on a AH you can make a deal out side of game to buy gold by selling low grade items for very high prices which would be the gold exchange in game for the cash out side of game.
As long as players can chat in game or group in game then someone can make a deal out side of the game to trade cash for Runs through dungeons for loot where there is not exchange between players within the game.
I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is to think/believe that anyone can eliminate RMT. It's going to happen. I have never said I want it to happen. In fact my suggestion was trying to avoid the possibility of abuse by limiting a gifting system from Creators to Supporters of AoC related stuff for the AoC related content.
Maybe you haven't read the entire post so I'll add this. The point is creators will give things away regardless of it being AoC related or not. I can buy other games or use other game cash shops to gift items to my viewers. By doing so I am potentially taking people Away from AoC because they will play those other games or want to use those items. I don't like that. I would rather have something to give that is AoC related when making AoC content.
This is where the conversation should be about how we as a community can help reduce RMT as much as reasonably possible while also giving AoC the ability to make things available, as they have done before, to content creators to share with the community.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
I thought this was the AoC forums... we were talking about AoC this entire time... OMG I must be in the wrong forums...
ESO is not the topic or subject of this post. You are trying to move the goal posts again and not staying on topic or in context. We are talking about AoC, not any other game. Try and stay with the program. I know it's hard because you've been proven wrong every time you've commented.
You really are lacking a sense of gratitude and appreciation in your life. Do you go to the movie theater? Do you go to concerts? Do you go to sporting events? If you do any of those or buy the merchandise of any kind, you are doing the same thing as people who support their favorite streamers.
What are you on about? Yes We would claim that buying levels in a store is wrong and no we do not endorse any system where players pay other players to level their account.
We are just intelligent enough to know it's going to happen regardless. We don't like it any more than you do.
Your next bit is irrelevant to the conversation.
No one here is endorsing the creation of a P2W or RMT system. You are completely and purposefully misleading people into believing a lie you are perpetuating about me. Your slander is getting tiresome.
Ashes of Creation has already said they will be giving Content Creators things to give away so you have already lost your argument. The creators will then be trusted to give those things away honestly. There is always a chance someone will seek to profit from that and I hope they are banned when caught.
Buying anything from the AoC shop gives no advantage in game to anyone. Creators will already be gifted gold in game, as we see with Asmongold and other streamers in other games, so they will already have a gold advantage in game and really have no need or want to sell anything from the cash shop in game and risk being banned in game and likely from their streaming platform and discord as they all have anti-cheating rules.
Your fears in that context are really unfounded and the community is always a great observer and guardian against a content creator abusing their privilege.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
I think people mis-understand, as well. I would also buy stuff from the store with my own money for giveaways—but there is plenty of other possibilities for giveaways. IRL swag, for example—and exclusive wall-papers was a great idea. Even just a pack of 4k wallpapers every certified streamer gets, to start, would be great!
We aren't asking for free stuff, so much as some form of recognition for the buzz we build around AoC content—in the form of something to give our viewers. Not handouts, but exclusive ways to reward our audience. For example: new AoC subs from our twitch who are also twitch prime could unlock some exclusive skin, ETC. Or randomly generated giveaways via YouTube comments. This would generate hype for both the game and the content creator.
There is a very real possibility for Intrepid to take a hold of the generation of streaming, and have some discussions with twitch and potentially other platforms
I think the more closely Intrepid works with its content creators, the earlier it can take a hold in the market—and the bigger and more secure that hold will end up being. And I'm talking real MMO players, here—not just subscriptions who add nothing to the player-base, like you'll get from click-bait advertising.
There are ~10 million lost WoW players, wandering the streams... I was one of them, and that is how I found Steven; via an interview with Asmongold.
Let's face it... you have to see Ashes of Creation, to believe it.
Streamers are unpaid advertisers(unpaid by the game)—a good streamer does far, far more for a game than all of the advertising and trailers in the world. I promise you I would not be here if such weren't the case—if I'd only gameplay and dev commentary without the commentary of an experienced MMO player such as Asmongold(who was commentating on yet another stream!), I wouldn't have understand just how GOOD this game is... !
I don't want to see handouts—I want to see exclusive content. Recognition of some form Intrepid for the people who are working hard to give valuable input via stream and actively draw in new players/ strengthen the current community. These people end up being the real voice of the community, for all those who do not play the game—and even for many of those who do.
Something to keep in mind, my friend!
Maybe the amount of exclusive items available in the store could be linked directly to how many new subscriptions can be accredited directly to the stream, per two weeks; resetting to certain threshold if that amount is not maintained. This would throttle abusers, and reward and encourage good streamers. It's not an easy job, believe it or not—it's not easy to stand out, and therefore to make your content stand out. But I also don't think you should just be able to get views by giving swag away, as you spoke to.
I can also see many "invite your friends to AoC so we can get to the threshold for the giveaway!" streams. Great community interaction potential, there!
I think each streamer should have to certify their AoC account and initially get some exclusive wall-papers to give away—nothing major. But at say 5 confirmed subscriptions ('Did a streamer refer you to AoC?'), they unlock a random low-tier mount skin. What do you think about that? How is that 'free swag', when a streamer has literally put $75 into Intrepid's pocket... ?
But it's not about the money. Fact is: the quality of gamer who views streams is often much higher than you'd find in literally any other form of advertising.
Why? because hardcore gamers do two things—and two things only: they game on monitor #1, and they chat with stream and discord, or watch a game be streamed on monitor #2.
Your cherry picking your arguments and not giving a fair evaluation at all while using any means necessary in your attempt to win.
Using gold to purchase cosmetics that were bought with cash has a direct impact on the economy = "pay to win is really anything that affect the in game economy-Steven".
The gift system that you made this thread for would create an in game system which would allow the purchase of cosmetics for cash to be sold for gold. Your trying to argue that you don't support RMT while at the same time arguing for a system that makes RMT easier.
Except that your entire thread is an argument in support of incorporating gifted items which has the happens to greatly benefit banned RMT transactions while having a fairly small benefit for players using the system legitimately. This is dissimilar to your earlier examples such as using the Auction House or in game chat to facilitate RMT as these examples greatly benefit legitimate use of the game while having much more limited benefit for RMT.
Game Shark is a cheat device. I am not going to expand this discussion into whether specifically cheating should also be weighed under pay to win in this thread.
Back on topic, my point is simply that systems should not be put in place that greatly advantage RMT transactions. Gifting would do so.
You don't need to respond to my post. I am not going to waste any more of my time with this. This thread will have no more success at convincing anyone of your argument than the massive thread where the creator tried to convince everyone that cosmetics are pay to win.
Secondly, I don't understand why just giving out money through PayPal or a gift card doesn't suffice for people to be able to make the decision as to whether or not they want to spend them on AoC cosmetics, when giving said out to followers or through giveaways.
It's a slippery slope when you allow for players to be able to give away their already purchased items from their cosmetic inventory. The cosmetics that are available each month are exclusives and being able to gift them back and forth between people seem to eliminate the statement of them being exclusive.
Now, I personally don't mind if they make cosmetics giftable in the future - when the game launches - given that said cosmetics become more permanent in the store and are not only available for that one month duration.
quote me exactly word for word with a screen shot where I said I wanted any of this in AoC with an explanation of why you think the wording in that quote means I want it in the game please? thanks.
Never said the game would have "Game-endoresed P2W or RMT's" I said do you think it would launch without it period. I know IS will never endorse it but that doesn't mean it wont exist, I don't want it to exist somehow your still trolling that point its quite humorous actually. just cause I say it will exist isn't me saying "it will exist because I WANT it to" no no no that's putting words in my mouth and that's not what I am saying. We literally want the same thing the only difference is Neither of us know exactly how the CC program is going to work. it might work exactly the way me and the OP and a few others are trying to explain but somehow its going over your head which is very similar to what you want or it could be completely different and go against what we both believe in, we just don't know yet.
RMT - "Real Money Trading" is already part of AoC. Do you not give them REAL money in TRADE for those cosmetics? extra shop coins? hmmm weird yes you do. that's literally the definition of RMT and any other way you explain that doesn't matter because facts are facts your drawing at straws trying to move the goal posts when you literally have no ground to stand on anymore because your arguing facts based on YOUR opinion. Doesn't work that way.
Again it can't be pay to win if the things gifted to the players by a CC or any other person through a program that is IS approved!!!(you ignore this part every time) are bound to account or single character it is literally impossible the only issue you could ever run into after the fact is people giving in-game gold to said person or CC they earned in a legit manner by playing the game over a period of time and there is no stopping that. It's a game mechanic to be able to trade with players in-game items wether it be a sword, armor, materials or in-game currency. You even agreed to this part!
It's going to happen!! it sucks! I know! I hate it to! the OP hates it! All we are hoping for is to come up with a plan WITH IS to help diminish it even more if possible through a CC program which they are already doing so maybe this argument is mute since it literally might already be taken care of.
Not if there account bound or character bound. simple fix. can't get real money for something you can't trade outside of a program your not apart of. That program being created and closely watched my IS and oh wait...aren't they creating one of those already? oh geez they are! look at that! So no matter how this CC program turns out. if someone receives ANYTHING from it and after the fact decides to pay the person real money via their stream or donation to paypal you can't stop that. The CC program is already being made by IS its already a thing its just a matter of what it will entail. What someone does with there own money after the fact is up to them. IS can't stop that or even find out if its even happened or say it has a connection to the person receiving something through the CC program. This isn't IS directly endorsing RMT but it is RMT and it will sadly happen.
CC's could decide to not accept it but how are they suppose to stop someone from popping into their stream and just donating money? subscribing? They could give the money back I guess? but we all know that won't happen.
You have already lost your entire argument because AoC has already given things to streamers to give away and will do so again. That system already exists and it does not create a RMT system. There is only a risk that a streamer may abuse the privilege of gifting for their own profit and I think I have made a very good case for why that is unlikely to happen with systems in place to catch people.
I don't need to convince anyone because as a Forum Mod has already stated, AoC has already done more or less what I have requested in the past and will do so again.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
And how do you keep people in the mean time from paying IRL cash for cosmetics they missed?
First no one is advocating for that and secondly if a CC could gift cosmetics from the store, it would only be what is available at the time. So in a few days the current cosmetics will be replaced with something else.
Currently you are paying IRL cash for cosmetics. That's how the store operates. As for stopping players from exchanging in game gold for Store Cosmetics, if they were to allow for players to gift, you limit it to only Content Creators to keep the risk as low as possible from that happening, you put systems in place that monitor gifting and you have the community support Creators that follow the rules and you report the ones who do not.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
Absolutely no special rules for streamers
AoC has already shown they do not agree with you so that is between you and them. It's going to happen, they have said as much with the creation of a new Official Content Creators Program. Every MMO has something similar. A lot of games do it.
Steven committed to give Asmongold Alpha Access and a bunch of Beta Keys to give away. Live on one of Asmongold's streams no less. Birdie (a forum mod) also stated AoC gave CC's cosmetics to give away during Apocalypse.
I'm sorry friend, but it's going to happen regardless of how you and others feel about it.
What we do now is try and work together to ensure it is not abused.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
I'm fairly certain his point was you could "gift" your loyal subscribers this and they can use that to buy in game cosmetics. Which then means you don't need to gift in game cosmetics. At least that's how I read it.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
And that's why I currently gift Amazon gift cards as one of my stream prizes. But that doesn't support AoC in any way. Nor would a credit card. I am in Canada so I can't gift that anyway. Don't think you can use a CAD cc out side of Canada.
Sadly due to International scams involving all kinds of gift cards and what not even steam has banned gifting games from Canada to U.S. residence. It's impossible for me to gift people in other countries directly from steam now which totally sucks.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
If IS is going to allow content creators to obtain giftables whether by giving them to the content creators or by selling them before the game releases, I don't see a problem for a lot of abuse. If they continue to do so after release then the potential for abuse is there, particularly if the content creators are buying as many giftables as they want. If they open the option to gift to everyone, it will be abused badly.
Ok, now I am done posting in this thread.
I agree there is the chance for Abuse. My point has been that with Content Creators only the chance for abuse is much less than if it was made available for everyone. Maybe 1 in 100 Content Creators might abuse it and the punishment is banning and reporting their cheating to all the Streaming platforms who all have strict rules against cheating as well as Discord.
As a Content Creator the risk of having yourself banned completely is too much of a risk for anyone but the VERY stupid to try and abuse a heavily monitored system.
Glad we are in agrement.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
So you're saying for fact you can not buy a Visa (or other) gift card through Amazon for someone in the USA because you live in Canada? That seems unlikely to me. I'm not about to spend the time to research this, but I find it suspect to say the least.
p.s. Giving someone cosmetics you've already paid for also doesn't support AoC (further) if you've already bought it. Unless of course your argument is you're not going to buy it unless you can gift it, then that's no different than me or someone else not buying cosmetics.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
No matter what, we should not be able to purchase a cosmetic item from Intrepid and be able to transfer it to another account.
I am saying I currently buy Amazon Cards for give away's. But I can not buy them through the Canadian site because they are not use able in the U.S.. I've had to make a U.S. Account to buy and gift Amazon Gift Cards so if you won a $10 (CAD) Card I have to buy a $7.60 USD card and then pay a currency exchange fee on top of that. On the Back of the Visa cards here it says can only be used in the region/country purchased from so if I go and buy one, it is only good in Canada. I also want to gift something more meaningful/in theme. I don't want to be gifting what amounts to cash. Why would I buy a Visa Card through Amazon?
Because of all the international scams where people in other countries attempt to get people to buy gift cards and then send them the codes, it's becoming common practice that you can not use a gift card out side of your country. At least here in Canada it appears to be that way and Steam is also restricting gifting of games as well because their gifting system has been abused in this same way.
RE: Your P.S. - Yes it does because there is a chance that the person who wins is not already an AoC Fan and does not have an account. If they win something they are going to create an account and are 80% more likely to pay for at least 1 month of game time to use their gift. Gifting is an incentivization tool that is common practice in the world. Coupons are another example where even the offer of a discount is enough to get people to go to a store they may not other wise frequent and it's likely they will buy more than just the item with the coupon.
Content Creators are marketing and sales people basically working for nothing but the enjoyment of the game. We bring people to it, convince them to participate and encourage people to stay. We are also the most effective marketing available for the least amount of cost to the developer. Those who want to hate on us are really just saying they would rather the game not be as successful as it could be. For all the questioning about my loyalty to AoC (which loyalty is a poor standard in this case to measure anything by), it's those who would like there to be no Creators supporting this game.
Don't think Asmongold or Summit would stream hours of AoC if there were not getting something from it. Sure they might play it on their own time or here and there as part of their stream but not dedicated. Asmon asked for an Alpha key and keys to give out on his stream and Steven said "I'll hook you up". I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a more formal compensation package being offered to those big streamers to support AoC. It's very common in the industry and none of us may ever know about it, but we can look at Apex and what they paid a couple streamers, it was in the millions. So it does happen and more often than many of you may realize.
If someone who has an AoC account already and is already a fan wins a cosmetic item they are also more likely to go to the shop and buy other items to match or compliment the gifted item. It creates more support for AoC. It's smart business.
I think what many of the counter posters here fail to understand is the bigger broader picture. Games today can live or die on just content creators alone.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
I'll sound like a broken record again... here we go.
By giving away another game or a card to Amazon it potentially takes people away from AoC. People who do not have an AoC account likely wont go make one as their is no incentive to do so. It's bad marketing strategy.
Giving out what is basically cash is also a bad model and in some places may not even be allowed, do you claim it on your taxes when you win? What kind of issue can that create for you down the line?
If I give away another non-AoC related game, that person is less likely to play AoC and instead play that other game. Say I gift Guild Wars 2 stuff or Albion Online stuff. How does that help and support AoC? It doesn't. It potentially does the opposite.
See my comment previous to this one for more context.
I think what you anti-streamers are not understanding is we will gift stuff, regardless of it being AoC related or not. Our priority is our streams and content and building and maintaining an audience. It becomes like a business in a way, even though it's a fun hobby. So we can either create AoC content and have a means of supporting AoC via give aways or not. Steven and Intrepid Studios understand that, which is why they are creating the Official Creators Program. It's going to happen like it or not.
MY point in all this is for personal integrity and to maintain objectivity, I would like the opportunity to buy the AoC related stuff rather than receive it for free to give away as I choose on my stream and Via Phoenix Radio. This way no one can accuse me of schilling for AoC or in some way being beholden to them. I understand that I will be given stuff as part of the program, if I should qualify, and should that happen I am very happy to follow a very strict auditing system so that no one can claim I am doing anything inappropriate.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
- If you want to give your friend something, send them $10 and tell them to buy whatever they want on the cash shop.
- If you are a content creator and want to gift something to a follower, pick something not on the cash shop. Make it your merch or the game merch or send them a pre-paid Visa card and say here you go buy whatever you wanted from the cash shop (or use it for whatever you want)
- Content creators should absolutely not be given a special back door method of gifting cosmetics.
These have been my thoughts on the matter, thank you for reading.
So, give them the money. They buy it themselves. Same effect, different strategy.
How *you* would use a system is immaterial.
What matters is how other *can* use a system.
Any system in which you can gift this game to your friends can be used by others to pay real money for in game advancement.
This entire thing is a 100% non-starter. It wont happen.
I think the original post has noble intentions, but for all the reasons mentioned, it is too easy to find a RMT exploitation. It would entail additional work for IS to put controls in place, which would delay the game release.
Someone mentioned Merch as a solution. AFAIK, IS aren't pursuing Merch atm. I guess this is because they don't perceive a great return on investment at this point in time? I understand that Merch is a form of marketing that generates additional customers for the cosmetic shop, and eventually additional $15 subs, but I'm 100% sure that IS have looked at the numbers and decided 'not yet'.
You can always generate your own Content Creator brand of Merch and share that out, although I appreciate then _you_ would need to do the heavy lifting of artwork creation and dealing with suppliers. That promotes your brand, so is worth considering the cost/benefits.
I'm sure that there will be a point in time when IS are ready to pursue the marketing benefits from Merch, until then I'll assume that they're happy to just focus on the core product.
[EDIT: Afterthought, Intrepid do charity events. Find out when the next one is and donate on behalf of your followers]
Also after reading most of the posts in here from OP specifically, I hope you never become an official CC. Everything has been outlined for you, the correct reasonings used in every avenue and yet you STILL want to go with that "No i'm right and your wrong" approach. Nah, we don't need that.
In the end I got what I wanted so all the recent comments from this week are moot.
I have been giving away AoC Themed Merch for months. Stickers, Coffee Mugs, Face Masks, Mouse Pad, even a wall hanging. All at my expense and with permission to use the AoC Phoenix and Intrepid Studio Logo.
As long as I do not sell any of it I can give it away and as much as like. Just needed to find a compromise.
Thanks for your comments, from both sides.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord