Greetings, glorious testers!

Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.

To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.

Please Let Us Gift Something AoC!!!

13

Comments

  • CaerylCaeryl Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    KoreKode wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    KoreKode wrote: »
    Something a few of you here seem to misunderstand is no one in this thread wants P2W or RMT unless you quote this comment and say otherwise.

    Imagine getting crapped on for wanting to find a way to Support your supporters. That's 2020 for ya I guess.

    Have you seen ANY game add “gifting” that wasn’t obviously to turn RMTs into an in-house affair? I watched cash shop gifting launch in ESO, and everyone knew it was just a way for Zenimax to profit of gold buyers. That’s all gifting ever ends up as. Obviously making their entire gold buying process able to be done in-game will make RMTs more prevalent. It’d be stupid to think otherwise.

    Not even mentioning how the OP thinks P2W doesn’t exist in an MMO, so why would they give a crap if this system they’re asking for enables P2W. In their head, it doesn’t even exist as a possibility.

    If stuff gifted to others from a CC are bound to account or to specific characters how is that going to turn into RMT/P2W? if its BOUND cannot be traded? moved to another person...only between the account holders characters? That being said ignore the fact that someone on their own terms could support that CC after the fact. Thats not RMT/P2W thats Supporting your CC. All these things being gifted only being Cosmetic. NO Benefit to the ability of the character, keeping that in mind. Also don't use the arguement that the CC will use gold he got from the person who wants to support them on the AH because thats not RMT/P2W either. I could play this game from day one and my friend could join the game 5 months or a year later and I could give him thousands of gold as soon as he logs in. Thats not RMT/P2W thats supporting someone your playing the game with and enjoy same as if a CC gets gold from people. Sure they could not accept it but lets be real this is going to happen.

    You can say this shouldn't happen. So what do we do? Completely stop CC from playing the game? ZERO streamers allowed because people might and WILL give their favourite CC's gold or items?

    Answer this, Do you right now believe AoC will release without RMT/P2W? ignore this whole conversation and just answer the question without anything influencing other then the facts we know that players will infact be able to trade between each other items and gold.
    All that does is make the RMT in-house, meaning the company is profiting off RMTs which is unethical in so many ways

    AoC is already engaged in RMT because you pay them Cash to get In-game items.


    unknown.png

    “Selling Crowns for gold 1:200, whisper me!”

    “Gifting lootboxes, pm me”

    Are you really, really gonna lie and say that’s fair play? That what’s spammed in ESO’s main city chats every day.

    Streamers can play the game like everyone else. The devs can’t stop idiots from funneling gold to them for a chance to appear on stream.

    Cash shop gifting has people buying gold with real money and that $ to currency transaction is no different than selling an account to someone else. You wouldn’t claim being able to buy leveling in the store is wrong and yet endorse a system where players pay other people to level their account would you?

    RMT are between players, facilitated by sketchy websites usually, until you let them do their business ingame instead by letting them sell each other “gifts” and widening the pool of people who engage in them. RMTs are not the devs selling cosmetics to a player for that specific player to use.

    Ashes absolutely won’t release with game-endorsed P2W or RMTs. Illegal markets, sure, you’re right those always exist. But I don’t accept that as justification to create game endorsed P2W and RMTs like you and the OP want to do via cash shop gifting, and this is where our ethics differ.
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Beck Altarr
    IS and Steven have defined pay 2 win and it will not exist in game. Saying that you don't accept it does not change the position that IS has adopted.

    There is no such thing as pay to win in an MMO. There is only Pay to Advantage, and you can't eliminate it. IS can say all they want that there will be no P2W. But they can't stop it. You even admit that. So you agree with me. At best you can try to eliminate the obvious means of abusing it. Someone will find ways to get around it. You seem to also agree with that. So we are in agreement. Why are you then trying to argue with me?
    Ashes of Creation will not be pay to win, that is our pledge to the community. One of the core principles we set forth with Ashes of Creation is a very strong desire to maintain the game's even playing field.[14]

    My definition of pay-to-win is really anything that affects the in-game economy, the in-game action pool, your abilities and/or skills... In my opinion the inventory slots and the XP potions would be considered pay-to-win.[16] – Steven Sharif


    Source: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Payment_model#Pay_to_win

    The context of that quote is AoC won't engage in any kind of Pay to "win" systems. You can't buy buffs or armours or anything from their cash shop that would give you any advantage in game. I 100% Agree with that. Never said otherwise. This is also why Steven is not allowing for DPS meters and such types of Add-ons.

    I 100% agree with Steven on this. They have only 1 means of paying to "win" as you would put it and that's paying $15/m to play the game. If you don't pay the sub, you don't play the game and you can't win at anything game related.

    This doesn't however stop a player from engaging another player outside of the game and offering some kind of compensation for a dungeon run or for a piece of equipment. You can't stop that. That's been my point. You can set up systems to try and catch people who do this, which I also 100% support. I do not support any kind of RMT out side of paying for the game Subscription.
    Players using gold to purchase cosmetics that were bought with cash has a direct impact on the economy.

    I agree. I have never said otherwise. I do not support that and I in no way have endorsed such things or stated I have any interest in engaging in such things.
    Is there any game in which you pay cash and then the game is over, you have won? I doubt it. You have redefined pay 2 win to suit your argument of allow pay 2 win mechanics, you just don't call it that because pay 2 win will not be in the game.

    No I have said that it is Pay to Advantage because there is no finish line. And Yes, I have owned a Game Shark which was one of the first Pay to Win concepts in which you could finish the game and Win with little effort. I have never made an argument to allow for any kind of Pay to win or Pay to Advantage system. I have only stated that despite all best efforts and intentions it will happen.
    The common meaning of pay 2 win describes winning at aspects of a game that you will continue to play such as winning a fight or increasing your wealth. This is such a common definition of pay 2 win that it is even in the wiki after having been referenced from a CNBC news article: "In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage, which can not be obtained otherwise, over his or her non-paying peers, which is shown in games such as FIFA. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#:~:text=In general a game is,to-win" by critics.

    Look at your own quote of the defintion - ""In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage" - You just made my case for me. Call it semantics but I think language is important so the more appropriate phrase is "Pay to Advantage". Pay to Win is more inflammatory, it makes for a better buzz word, but it is inaccurate as your own statement concludes. You've just made my point for me. Thank You.
    No. As you love to point out, RMT will happen to some extent. However, systems that greatly benefit RMT should not be used. Your examples of the auction house, trading between players, in game chat, grouping, and no other players on the server do not greatly benefit RMT but do greatly benefit players actually focused on the game rather than RMT.

    There's something called common sense. You should apply it to your arguments. People will be less angry with you.

    Again you agree with me. We are in agreement. I agree RMT will happen to some extent. That is all I have said. Systems that benefit or encourage RMT should not be used or allowed. I agree with that.

    Let me explain my point about all those systems. They can all be used for RMT to some extent, therefore you can not eliminate RMT. As long as players can trade items or gold, someone can make a deal out of game to exchange items or gold for money. As long as players can sell on a AH you can make a deal out side of game to buy gold by selling low grade items for very high prices which would be the gold exchange in game for the cash out side of game.

    As long as players can chat in game or group in game then someone can make a deal out side of the game to trade cash for Runs through dungeons for loot where there is not exchange between players within the game.

    I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is to think/believe that anyone can eliminate RMT. It's going to happen. I have never said I want it to happen. In fact my suggestion was trying to avoid the possibility of abuse by limiting a gifting system from Creators to Supporters of AoC related stuff for the AoC related content.

    Maybe you haven't read the entire post so I'll add this. The point is creators will give things away regardless of it being AoC related or not. I can buy other games or use other game cash shops to gift items to my viewers. By doing so I am potentially taking people Away from AoC because they will play those other games or want to use those items. I don't like that. I would rather have something to give that is AoC related when making AoC content.

    This is where the conversation should be about how we as a community can help reduce RMT as much as reasonably possible while also giving AoC the ability to make things available, as they have done before, to content creators to share with the community.
    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Caeryl wrote: »

    “Selling Crowns for gold 1:200, whisper me!”

    “Gifting lootboxes, pm me”

    Are you really, really gonna lie and say that’s fair play? That what’s spammed in ESO’s main city chats every day.

    I thought this was the AoC forums... we were talking about AoC this entire time... OMG I must be in the wrong forums...

    ESO is not the topic or subject of this post. You are trying to move the goal posts again and not staying on topic or in context. We are talking about AoC, not any other game. Try and stay with the program. I know it's hard because you've been proven wrong every time you've commented.
    Streamers can play the game like everyone else. The devs can’t stop idiots from funneling gold to them for a chance to appear on stream.

    You really are lacking a sense of gratitude and appreciation in your life. Do you go to the movie theater? Do you go to concerts? Do you go to sporting events? If you do any of those or buy the merchandise of any kind, you are doing the same thing as people who support their favorite streamers.
    Cash shop gifting has people buying gold with real money and that $ to currency transaction is no different than selling an account to someone else. You wouldn’t claim being able to buy leveling in the store is wrong and yet endorse a system where players pay other people to level their account would you?
    What are you on about? Yes We would claim that buying levels in a store is wrong and no we do not endorse any system where players pay other players to level their account.

    We are just intelligent enough to know it's going to happen regardless. We don't like it any more than you do.

    Your next bit is irrelevant to the conversation.
    Ashes absolutely won’t release with game-endorsed P2W or RMTs. Illegal markets, sure, you’re right those always exist. But I don’t accept that as justification to create game endorsed P2W and RMTs like you and the OP want to do via cash shop gifting, and this is where our ethics differ.

    No one here is endorsing the creation of a P2W or RMT system. You are completely and purposefully misleading people into believing a lie you are perpetuating about me. Your slander is getting tiresome.

    Ashes of Creation has already said they will be giving Content Creators things to give away so you have already lost your argument. The creators will then be trusted to give those things away honestly. There is always a chance someone will seek to profit from that and I hope they are banned when caught.

    Buying anything from the AoC shop gives no advantage in game to anyone. Creators will already be gifted gold in game, as we see with Asmongold and other streamers in other games, so they will already have a gold advantage in game and really have no need or want to sell anything from the cash shop in game and risk being banned in game and likely from their streaming platform and discord as they all have anti-cheating rules.

    Your fears in that context are really unfounded and the community is always a great observer and guardian against a content creator abusing their privilege.

    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • This is a great idea—especially from the stand-point of a viewer who is intending to get into streaming specifically for AoC!
  • This is a great idea—especially from the stand-point of a viewer who is intending to get into streaming specifically for AoC!

    I think people mis-understand, as well. I would also buy stuff from the store with my own money for giveaways—but there is plenty of other possibilities for giveaways. IRL swag, for example—and exclusive wall-papers was a great idea. Even just a pack of 4k wallpapers every certified streamer gets, to start, would be great!

    We aren't asking for free stuff, so much as some form of recognition for the buzz we build around AoC content—in the form of something to give our viewers. Not handouts, but exclusive ways to reward our audience. For example: new AoC subs from our twitch who are also twitch prime could unlock some exclusive skin, ETC. Or randomly generated giveaways via YouTube comments. This would generate hype for both the game and the content creator.

    There is a very real possibility for Intrepid to take a hold of the generation of streaming, and have some discussions with twitch and potentially other platforms

    I think the more closely Intrepid works with its content creators, the earlier it can take a hold in the market—and the bigger and more secure that hold will end up being. And I'm talking real MMO players, here—not just subscriptions who add nothing to the player-base, like you'll get from click-bait advertising.

    There are ~10 million lost WoW players, wandering the streams... I was one of them, and that is how I found Steven; via an interview with Asmongold.

    Let's face it... you have to see Ashes of Creation, to believe it.
  • Destiny AwryDestiny Awry Member
    edited August 2020
    Kneczhevo wrote: »
    Let me get this right. You want the developer's to give "you" swag to pass out to "your" viewers. Sounds a lot like favoritism to me.

    You want to reward your viewers, give them your content.

    Streamers are unpaid advertisers(unpaid by the game)—a good streamer does far, far more for a game than all of the advertising and trailers in the world. I promise you I would not be here if such weren't the case—if I'd only gameplay and dev commentary without the commentary of an experienced MMO player such as Asmongold(who was commentating on yet another stream!), I wouldn't have understand just how GOOD this game is... !

    I don't want to see handouts—I want to see exclusive content. Recognition of some form Intrepid for the people who are working hard to give valuable input via stream and actively draw in new players/ strengthen the current community. These people end up being the real voice of the community, for all those who do not play the game—and even for many of those who do.

    Something to keep in mind, my friend!

    Maybe the amount of exclusive items available in the store could be linked directly to how many new subscriptions can be accredited directly to the stream, per two weeks; resetting to certain threshold if that amount is not maintained. This would throttle abusers, and reward and encourage good streamers. It's not an easy job, believe it or not—it's not easy to stand out, and therefore to make your content stand out. But I also don't think you should just be able to get views by giving swag away, as you spoke to.

    I can also see many "invite your friends to AoC so we can get to the threshold for the giveaway!" streams. Great community interaction potential, there!

    I think each streamer should have to certify their AoC account and initially get some exclusive wall-papers to give away—nothing major. But at say 5 confirmed subscriptions ('Did a streamer refer you to AoC?'), they unlock a random low-tier mount skin. What do you think about that? How is that 'free swag', when a streamer has literally put $75 into Intrepid's pocket... ?

    But it's not about the money. Fact is: the quality of gamer who views streams is often much higher than you'd find in literally any other form of advertising.

    Why? because hardcore gamers do two things—and two things only: they game on monitor #1, and they chat with stream and discord, or watch a game be streamed on monitor #2.
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    My definition of pay-to-win is really anything that affects the in-game economy, the in-game action pool, your abilities and/or skills... In my opinion the inventory slots and the XP potions would be considered pay-to-win.[16] – Steven Sharif[/i]

    The context of that quote is AoC won't engage in any kind of Pay to "win" systems. You can't buy buffs or armours or anything from their cash shop that would give you any advantage in game. I 100% Agree with that. Never said otherwise. This is also why Steven is not allowing for DPS meters and such types of Add-ons...

    ...Players using gold to purchase cosmetics that were bought with cash has a direct impact on the economy.
    The context of the quote includes that players cannot use cash to impact the game economy (pay-to-win is really anything that affects the in-game economy-Steven). You totally ignored this while describing context and then later in the same post agreed that using gold to purchase cosmetics that were bought with cash has a direct impact on the economy.

    Your cherry picking your arguments and not giving a fair evaluation at all while using any means necessary in your attempt to win.

    Using gold to purchase cosmetics that were bought with cash has a direct impact on the economy = "pay to win is really anything that affect the in game economy-Steven".

    The gift system that you made this thread for would create an in game system which would allow the purchase of cosmetics for cash to be sold for gold. Your trying to argue that you don't support RMT while at the same time arguing for a system that makes RMT easier.
    This doesn't however stop a player from engaging another player outside of the game and offering some kind of compensation for a dungeon run or for a piece of equipment. You can't stop that. That's been my point. You can set up systems to try and catch people who do this, which I also 100% support. I do not support any kind of RMT out side of paying for the game Subscription.
    Players using gold to purchase cosmetics that were bought with cash has a direct impact on the economy.

    I agree. I have never said otherwise. I do not support that and I in no way have endorsed such things or stated I have any interest in engaging in such things.
    Except that your entire thread is an argument in support of incorporating gifted items which has the happens to greatly benefit banned RMT transactions while having a fairly small benefit for players using the system legitimately. This is dissimilar to your earlier examples such as using the Auction House or in game chat to facilitate RMT as these examples greatly benefit legitimate use of the game while having much more limited benefit for RMT.

    @Beck Altarr
    Is there any game in which you pay cash and then the game is over, you have won? I doubt it. You have redefined pay 2 win to suit your argument of allow pay 2 win mechanics, you just don't call it that because pay 2 win will not be in the game.

    No I have said that it is Pay to Advantage because there is no finish line. And Yes, I have owned a Game Shark which was one of the first Pay to Win concepts in which you could finish the game and Win with little effort. I have never made an argument to allow for any kind of Pay to win or Pay to Advantage system. I have only stated that despite all best efforts and intentions it will happen.
    Game Shark is a cheat device. I am not going to expand this discussion into whether specifically cheating should also be weighed under pay to win in this thread.

    Back on topic, my point is simply that systems should not be put in place that greatly advantage RMT transactions. Gifting would do so.

    You don't need to respond to my post. I am not going to waste any more of my time with this. This thread will have no more success at convincing anyone of your argument than the massive thread where the creator tried to convince everyone that cosmetics are pay to win.


  • AmistAmist Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    First of all, as part of the previous iteration of the Official AoC Content Creator program, it was stated that beta keys would be given out to CC's for giveaways and such for their community.

    Secondly, I don't understand why just giving out money through PayPal or a gift card doesn't suffice for people to be able to make the decision as to whether or not they want to spend them on AoC cosmetics, when giving said out to followers or through giveaways.

    It's a slippery slope when you allow for players to be able to give away their already purchased items from their cosmetic inventory. The cosmetics that are available each month are exclusives and being able to gift them back and forth between people seem to eliminate the statement of them being exclusive.

    Now, I personally don't mind if they make cosmetics giftable in the future - when the game launches - given that said cosmetics become more permanent in the store and are not only available for that one month duration.
  • KoreKodeKoreKode Member
    edited August 2020
    “Selling Crowns for gold 1:200, whisper me!”

    “Gifting lootboxes, pm me”

    Are you really, really gonna lie and say that’s fair play? That what’s spammed in ESO’s main city chats every day

    quote me exactly word for word with a screen shot where I said I wanted any of this in AoC with an explanation of why you think the wording in that quote means I want it in the game please? thanks.


    Ashes absolutely won’t release with game-endorsed P2W or RMTs. Illegal markets, sure, you’re right those always exist. But I don’t accept that as justification to create game endorsed P2W and RMTs like you and the OP want to do via cash shop gifting, and this is where our ethics differ.

    Never said the game would have "Game-endoresed P2W or RMT's" I said do you think it would launch without it period. I know IS will never endorse it but that doesn't mean it wont exist, I don't want it to exist somehow your still trolling that point its quite humorous actually. just cause I say it will exist isn't me saying "it will exist because I WANT it to" no no no that's putting words in my mouth and that's not what I am saying. We literally want the same thing the only difference is Neither of us know exactly how the CC program is going to work. it might work exactly the way me and the OP and a few others are trying to explain but somehow its going over your head which is very similar to what you want or it could be completely different and go against what we both believe in, we just don't know yet.
    RMT are between players, facilitated by sketchy websites usually, until you let them do their business ingame instead by letting them sell each other “gifts” and widening the pool of people who engage in them. RMTs are not the devs selling cosmetics to a player for that specific player to use.

    RMT - "Real Money Trading" is already part of AoC. Do you not give them REAL money in TRADE for those cosmetics? extra shop coins? hmmm weird yes you do. that's literally the definition of RMT and any other way you explain that doesn't matter because facts are facts your drawing at straws trying to move the goal posts when you literally have no ground to stand on anymore because your arguing facts based on YOUR opinion. Doesn't work that way.

    Again it can't be pay to win if the things gifted to the players by a CC or any other person through a program that is IS approved!!!(you ignore this part every time) are bound to account or single character it is literally impossible the only issue you could ever run into after the fact is people giving in-game gold to said person or CC they earned in a legit manner by playing the game over a period of time and there is no stopping that. It's a game mechanic to be able to trade with players in-game items wether it be a sword, armor, materials or in-game currency. You even agreed to this part!
    Streamers can play the game like everyone else. The devs can’t stop idiots from funneling gold to them for a chance to appear on stream

    It's going to happen!! it sucks! I know! I hate it to! the OP hates it! All we are hoping for is to come up with a plan WITH IS to help diminish it even more if possible through a CC program which they are already doing so maybe this argument is mute since it literally might already be taken care of.
  • KoreKodeKoreKode Member
    edited August 2020
    Back on topic, my point is simply that systems should not be put in place that greatly advantage RMT transactions. Gifting would do so.

    Not if there account bound or character bound. simple fix. can't get real money for something you can't trade outside of a program your not apart of. That program being created and closely watched my IS and oh wait...aren't they creating one of those already? oh geez they are! look at that! So no matter how this CC program turns out. if someone receives ANYTHING from it and after the fact decides to pay the person real money via their stream or donation to paypal you can't stop that. The CC program is already being made by IS its already a thing its just a matter of what it will entail. What someone does with there own money after the fact is up to them. IS can't stop that or even find out if its even happened or say it has a connection to the person receiving something through the CC program. This isn't IS directly endorsing RMT but it is RMT and it will sadly happen.

    CC's could decide to not accept it but how are they suppose to stop someone from popping into their stream and just donating money? subscribing? They could give the money back I guess? but we all know that won't happen.
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    My definition of pay-to-win is really anything that affects the in-game economy, the in-game action pool, your abilities and/or skills... In my opinion the inventory slots and the XP potions would be considered pay-to-win.[16] – Steven Sharif[/i]

    The context of that quote is AoC won't engage in any kind of Pay to "win" systems. You can't buy buffs or armours or anything from their cash shop that would give you any advantage in game. I 100% Agree with that. Never said otherwise. This is also why Steven is not allowing for DPS meters and such types of Add-ons...

    ...Players using gold to purchase cosmetics that were bought with cash has a direct impact on the economy.
    The context of the quote includes that players cannot use cash to impact the game economy (pay-to-win is really anything that affects the in-game economy-Steven). You totally ignored this while describing context and then later in the same post agreed that using gold to purchase cosmetics that were bought with cash has a direct impact on the economy.

    Your cherry picking your arguments and not giving a fair evaluation at all while using any means necessary in your attempt to win.

    Using gold to purchase cosmetics that were bought with cash has a direct impact on the economy = "pay to win is really anything that affect the in game economy-Steven".

    The gift system that you made this thread for would create an in game system which would allow the purchase of cosmetics for cash to be sold for gold. Your trying to argue that you don't support RMT while at the same time arguing for a system that makes RMT easier.
    This doesn't however stop a player from engaging another player outside of the game and offering some kind of compensation for a dungeon run or for a piece of equipment. You can't stop that. That's been my point. You can set up systems to try and catch people who do this, which I also 100% support. I do not support any kind of RMT out side of paying for the game Subscription.
    Players using gold to purchase cosmetics that were bought with cash has a direct impact on the economy.

    I agree. I have never said otherwise. I do not support that and I in no way have endorsed such things or stated I have any interest in engaging in such things.
    Except that your entire thread is an argument in support of incorporating gifted items which has the happens to greatly benefit banned RMT transactions while having a fairly small benefit for players using the system legitimately. This is dissimilar to your earlier examples such as using the Auction House or in game chat to facilitate RMT as these examples greatly benefit legitimate use of the game while having much more limited benefit for RMT.

    @Beck Altarr
    Is there any game in which you pay cash and then the game is over, you have won? I doubt it. You have redefined pay 2 win to suit your argument of allow pay 2 win mechanics, you just don't call it that because pay 2 win will not be in the game.

    No I have said that it is Pay to Advantage because there is no finish line. And Yes, I have owned a Game Shark which was one of the first Pay to Win concepts in which you could finish the game and Win with little effort. I have never made an argument to allow for any kind of Pay to win or Pay to Advantage system. I have only stated that despite all best efforts and intentions it will happen.
    Game Shark is a cheat device. I am not going to expand this discussion into whether specifically cheating should also be weighed under pay to win in this thread.

    Back on topic, my point is simply that systems should not be put in place that greatly advantage RMT transactions. Gifting would do so.

    You don't need to respond to my post. I am not going to waste any more of my time with this. This thread will have no more success at convincing anyone of your argument than the massive thread where the creator tried to convince everyone that cosmetics are pay to win.


    You have already lost your entire argument because AoC has already given things to streamers to give away and will do so again. That system already exists and it does not create a RMT system. There is only a risk that a streamer may abuse the privilege of gifting for their own profit and I think I have made a very good case for why that is unlikely to happen with systems in place to catch people.

    I don't need to convince anyone because as a Forum Mod has already stated, AoC has already done more or less what I have requested in the past and will do so again.
    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    darthaden wrote: »
    I have no objections to this as long as the gifting program is eliminated before launch so people can't sell cash shop cosmetics for in game gold

    And how do you keep people in the mean time from paying IRL cash for cosmetics they missed?
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Aardvark wrote: »
    darthaden wrote: »
    I have no objections to this as long as the gifting program is eliminated before launch so people can't sell cash shop cosmetics for in game gold

    And how do you keep people in the mean time from paying IRL cash for cosmetics they missed?

    First no one is advocating for that and secondly if a CC could gift cosmetics from the store, it would only be what is available at the time. So in a few days the current cosmetics will be replaced with something else.

    Currently you are paying IRL cash for cosmetics. That's how the store operates. As for stopping players from exchanging in game gold for Store Cosmetics, if they were to allow for players to gift, you limit it to only Content Creators to keep the risk as low as possible from that happening, you put systems in place that monitor gifting and you have the community support Creators that follow the rules and you report the ones who do not.
    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Aardvark wrote: »
    darthaden wrote: »
    I have no objections to this as long as the gifting program is eliminated before launch so people can't sell cash shop cosmetics for in game gold

    And how do you keep people in the mean time from paying IRL cash for cosmetics they missed?

    First no one is advocating for that and secondly if a CC could gift cosmetics from the store, it would only be what is available at the time. So in a few days the current cosmetics will be replaced with something else.

    Currently you are paying IRL cash for cosmetics. That's how the store operates. As for stopping players from exchanging in game gold for Store Cosmetics, if they were to allow for players to gift, you limit it to only Content Creators to keep the risk as low as possible from that happening, you put systems in place that monitor gifting and you have the community support Creators that follow the rules and you report the ones who do not.

    Absolutely no special rules for streamers
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    Aardvark wrote: »
    Aardvark wrote: »
    darthaden wrote: »
    I have no objections to this as long as the gifting program is eliminated before launch so people can't sell cash shop cosmetics for in game gold

    And how do you keep people in the mean time from paying IRL cash for cosmetics they missed?

    First no one is advocating for that and secondly if a CC could gift cosmetics from the store, it would only be what is available at the time. So in a few days the current cosmetics will be replaced with something else.

    Currently you are paying IRL cash for cosmetics. That's how the store operates. As for stopping players from exchanging in game gold for Store Cosmetics, if they were to allow for players to gift, you limit it to only Content Creators to keep the risk as low as possible from that happening, you put systems in place that monitor gifting and you have the community support Creators that follow the rules and you report the ones who do not.

    Absolutely no special rules for streamers

    AoC has already shown they do not agree with you so that is between you and them. It's going to happen, they have said as much with the creation of a new Official Content Creators Program. Every MMO has something similar. A lot of games do it.

    Steven committed to give Asmongold Alpha Access and a bunch of Beta Keys to give away. Live on one of Asmongold's streams no less. Birdie (a forum mod) also stated AoC gave CC's cosmetics to give away during Apocalypse.

    I'm sorry friend, but it's going to happen regardless of how you and others feel about it.

    What we do now is try and work together to ensure it is not abused.
    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Karthos wrote: »

    Not really... You pay someone in game X gold and they buy that and mail it to you.

    As long as players can trade anything in game, you can't eliminate RMT.

    I'm fairly certain his point was you could "gift" your loyal subscribers this and they can use that to buy in game cosmetics. Which then means you don't need to gift in game cosmetics. At least that's how I read it.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Karthos wrote: »

    Not really... You pay someone in game X gold and they buy that and mail it to you.

    As long as players can trade anything in game, you can't eliminate RMT.

    I'm fairly certain his point was you could "gift" your loyal subscribers this and they can use that to buy in game cosmetics. Which then means you don't need to gift in game cosmetics. At least that's how I read it.

    And that's why I currently gift Amazon gift cards as one of my stream prizes. But that doesn't support AoC in any way. Nor would a credit card. I am in Canada so I can't gift that anyway. Don't think you can use a CAD cc out side of Canada.

    Sadly due to International scams involving all kinds of gift cards and what not even steam has banned gifting games from Canada to U.S. residence. It's impossible for me to gift people in other countries directly from steam now which totally sucks.
    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You have already lost your entire argument because AoC has already given things to streamers to give away and will do so again. That system already exists and it does not create a RMT system. There is only a risk that a streamer may abuse the privilege of gifting for their own profit and I think I have made a very good case for why that is unlikely to happen with systems in place to catch people.

    I don't need to convince anyone because as a Forum Mod has already stated, AoC has already done more or less what I have requested in the past and will do so again.

    If IS is going to allow content creators to obtain giftables whether by giving them to the content creators or by selling them before the game releases, I don't see a problem for a lot of abuse. If they continue to do so after release then the potential for abuse is there, particularly if the content creators are buying as many giftables as they want. If they open the option to gift to everyone, it will be abused badly.

    Ok, now I am done posting in this thread. ;)
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You have already lost your entire argument because AoC has already given things to streamers to give away and will do so again. That system already exists and it does not create a RMT system. There is only a risk that a streamer may abuse the privilege of gifting for their own profit and I think I have made a very good case for why that is unlikely to happen with systems in place to catch people.

    I don't need to convince anyone because as a Forum Mod has already stated, AoC has already done more or less what I have requested in the past and will do so again.

    If IS is going to allow content creators to obtain giftables whether by giving them to the content creators or by selling them before the game releases, I don't see a problem for a lot of abuse. If they continue to do so after release then the potential for abuse is there, particularly if the content creators are buying as many giftables as they want. If they open the option to gift to everyone, it will be abused badly.

    Ok, now I am done posting in this thread. ;)

    I agree there is the chance for Abuse. My point has been that with Content Creators only the chance for abuse is much less than if it was made available for everyone. Maybe 1 in 100 Content Creators might abuse it and the punishment is banning and reporting their cheating to all the Streaming platforms who all have strict rules against cheating as well as Discord.

    As a Content Creator the risk of having yourself banned completely is too much of a risk for anyone but the VERY stupid to try and abuse a heavily monitored system.

    Glad we are in agrement.
    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Karthos wrote: »

    Not really... You pay someone in game X gold and they buy that and mail it to you.

    As long as players can trade anything in game, you can't eliminate RMT.

    I'm fairly certain his point was you could "gift" your loyal subscribers this and they can use that to buy in game cosmetics. Which then means you don't need to gift in game cosmetics. At least that's how I read it.

    And that's why I currently gift Amazon gift cards as one of my stream prizes. But that doesn't support AoC in any way. Nor would a credit card. I am in Canada so I can't gift that anyway. Don't think you can use a CAD cc out side of Canada.

    Sadly due to International scams involving all kinds of gift cards and what not even steam has banned gifting games from Canada to U.S. residence. It's impossible for me to gift people in other countries directly from steam now which totally sucks.

    So you're saying for fact you can not buy a Visa (or other) gift card through Amazon for someone in the USA because you live in Canada? That seems unlikely to me. I'm not about to spend the time to research this, but I find it suspect to say the least.

    p.s. Giving someone cosmetics you've already paid for also doesn't support AoC (further) if you've already bought it. Unless of course your argument is you're not going to buy it unless you can gift it, then that's no different than me or someone else not buying cosmetics.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • BobzUrUncleBobzUrUncle Member
    edited August 2020
    What stops you from going to (for example) amazon.com and purchasing an e-card? You don't have to use amazon.ca for that.
    No matter what, we should not be able to purchase a cosmetic item from Intrepid and be able to transfer it to another account.
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tyrantor wrote: »

    So you're saying for fact you can not buy a Visa (or other) gift card through Amazon for someone in the USA because you live in Canada? That seems unlikely to me. I'm not about to spend the time to research this, but I find it suspect to say the least.

    p.s. Giving someone cosmetics you've already paid for also doesn't support AoC (further) if you've already bought it. Unless of course your argument is you're not going to buy it unless you can gift it, then that's no different than me or someone else not buying cosmetics.

    I am saying I currently buy Amazon Cards for give away's. But I can not buy them through the Canadian site because they are not use able in the U.S.. I've had to make a U.S. Account to buy and gift Amazon Gift Cards so if you won a $10 (CAD) Card I have to buy a $7.60 USD card and then pay a currency exchange fee on top of that. On the Back of the Visa cards here it says can only be used in the region/country purchased from so if I go and buy one, it is only good in Canada. I also want to gift something more meaningful/in theme. I don't want to be gifting what amounts to cash. Why would I buy a Visa Card through Amazon?

    Because of all the international scams where people in other countries attempt to get people to buy gift cards and then send them the codes, it's becoming common practice that you can not use a gift card out side of your country. At least here in Canada it appears to be that way and Steam is also restricting gifting of games as well because their gifting system has been abused in this same way.

    RE: Your P.S. - Yes it does because there is a chance that the person who wins is not already an AoC Fan and does not have an account. If they win something they are going to create an account and are 80% more likely to pay for at least 1 month of game time to use their gift. Gifting is an incentivization tool that is common practice in the world. Coupons are another example where even the offer of a discount is enough to get people to go to a store they may not other wise frequent and it's likely they will buy more than just the item with the coupon.

    Content Creators are marketing and sales people basically working for nothing but the enjoyment of the game. We bring people to it, convince them to participate and encourage people to stay. We are also the most effective marketing available for the least amount of cost to the developer. Those who want to hate on us are really just saying they would rather the game not be as successful as it could be. For all the questioning about my loyalty to AoC (which loyalty is a poor standard in this case to measure anything by), it's those who would like there to be no Creators supporting this game.

    Don't think Asmongold or Summit would stream hours of AoC if there were not getting something from it. Sure they might play it on their own time or here and there as part of their stream but not dedicated. Asmon asked for an Alpha key and keys to give out on his stream and Steven said "I'll hook you up". I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a more formal compensation package being offered to those big streamers to support AoC. It's very common in the industry and none of us may ever know about it, but we can look at Apex and what they paid a couple streamers, it was in the millions. So it does happen and more often than many of you may realize.

    If someone who has an AoC account already and is already a fan wins a cosmetic item they are also more likely to go to the shop and buy other items to match or compliment the gifted item. It creates more support for AoC. It's smart business.

    I think what many of the counter posters here fail to understand is the bigger broader picture. Games today can live or die on just content creators alone.

    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    What stops you from going to (for example) amazon.com and purchasing an e-card? You don't have to use amazon.ca for that.
    No matter what, we should not be able to purchase a cosmetic item from Intrepid and be able to transfer it to another account.

    I'll sound like a broken record again... here we go.

    By giving away another game or a card to Amazon it potentially takes people away from AoC. People who do not have an AoC account likely wont go make one as their is no incentive to do so. It's bad marketing strategy.

    Giving out what is basically cash is also a bad model and in some places may not even be allowed, do you claim it on your taxes when you win? What kind of issue can that create for you down the line?

    If I give away another non-AoC related game, that person is less likely to play AoC and instead play that other game. Say I gift Guild Wars 2 stuff or Albion Online stuff. How does that help and support AoC? It doesn't. It potentially does the opposite.

    See my comment previous to this one for more context.

    I think what you anti-streamers are not understanding is we will gift stuff, regardless of it being AoC related or not. Our priority is our streams and content and building and maintaining an audience. It becomes like a business in a way, even though it's a fun hobby. So we can either create AoC content and have a means of supporting AoC via give aways or not. Steven and Intrepid Studios understand that, which is why they are creating the Official Creators Program. It's going to happen like it or not.

    MY point in all this is for personal integrity and to maintain objectivity, I would like the opportunity to buy the AoC related stuff rather than receive it for free to give away as I choose on my stream and Via Phoenix Radio. This way no one can accuse me of schilling for AoC or in some way being beholden to them. I understand that I will be given stuff as part of the program, if I should qualify, and should that happen I am very happy to follow a very strict auditing system so that no one can claim I am doing anything inappropriate.
    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • I watched the video the original poster summitted and I agree 100%. I would love to gift this game to all my close gamer friends, as I wouldn't want to play alphas and beta's without them, and they may not have the money to make this purchase. allowing us to gift the games packs and early access would create a great added revenue for AoC, and possible long term players and community. Watching this game evolve I have no doubt in my mind it will be a great addition to the MMORPG science, and because of that would be willing to buy me and my close friends the $375 package. I am also Canadian so even at almost $500 i would still buy 3-4 Voyager plus pre-order packs. If your package sales have a limit it still isn't a reason to not allow gifting as I feel the players to most likely stick around are going to be those that have there gamer friends with them. Allowing us to buy our friends or viewers for that matter access to the game is very important.
  • CypherCypher Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    - I don’t want pay to win. We can trade non cash shop gear already. Cash shop items should be your account only.

    - If you want to give your friend something, send them $10 and tell them to buy whatever they want on the cash shop.

    - If you are a content creator and want to gift something to a follower, pick something not on the cash shop. Make it your merch or the game merch or send them a pre-paid Visa card and say here you go buy whatever you wanted from the cash shop (or use it for whatever you want)

    - Content creators should absolutely not be given a special back door method of gifting cosmetics.

    These have been my thoughts on the matter, thank you for reading.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Sintaza wrote: »
    I watched the video the original poster summitted and I agree 100%. I would love to gift this game to all my close gamer friends, as I wouldn't want to play alphas and beta's without them, and they may not have the money to make this purchase. allowing us to gift the games packs and early access would create a great added revenue for AoC, and possible long term players and community. Watching this game evolve I have no doubt in my mind it will be a great addition to the MMORPG science, and because of that would be willing to buy me and my close friends the $375 package. I am also Canadian so even at almost $500 i would still buy 3-4 Voyager plus pre-order packs. If your package sales have a limit it still isn't a reason to not allow gifting as I feel the players to most likely stick around are going to be those that have there gamer friends with them. Allowing us to buy our friends or viewers for that matter access to the game is very important.

    So, give them the money. They buy it themselves. Same effect, different strategy.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


    giphy-downsized-large.gif?cid=b603632fp2svffcmdi83yynpfpexo413mpb1qzxnh3cei0nx&ep=v1_gifs_gifId&rid=giphy-downsized-large.gif&ct=s
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Sintaza wrote: »
    I watched the video the original poster summitted and I agree 100%. I would love to gift this game to all my close gamer friends, as I wouldn't want to play alphas and beta's without them, and they may not have the money to make this purchase. allowing us to gift the games packs and early access would create a great added revenue for AoC, and possible long term players and community. Watching this game evolve I have no doubt in my mind it will be a great addition to the MMORPG science, and because of that would be willing to buy me and my close friends the $375 package. I am also Canadian so even at almost $500 i would still buy 3-4 Voyager plus pre-order packs. If your package sales have a limit it still isn't a reason to not allow gifting as I feel the players to most likely stick around are going to be those that have there gamer friends with them. Allowing us to buy our friends or viewers for that matter access to the game is very important.

    How *you* would use a system is immaterial.

    What matters is how other *can* use a system.

    Any system in which you can gift this game to your friends can be used by others to pay real money for in game advancement.

    This entire thing is a 100% non-starter. It wont happen.
  • McMackMuckMcMackMuck Member
    edited February 2021
    @Beck Altarr
    I think the original post has noble intentions, but for all the reasons mentioned, it is too easy to find a RMT exploitation. It would entail additional work for IS to put controls in place, which would delay the game release.

    Someone mentioned Merch as a solution. AFAIK, IS aren't pursuing Merch atm. I guess this is because they don't perceive a great return on investment at this point in time? I understand that Merch is a form of marketing that generates additional customers for the cosmetic shop, and eventually additional $15 subs, but I'm 100% sure that IS have looked at the numbers and decided 'not yet'.

    You can always generate your own Content Creator brand of Merch and share that out, although I appreciate then _you_ would need to do the heavy lifting of artwork creation and dealing with suppliers. That promotes your brand, so is worth considering the cost/benefits.

    I'm sure that there will be a point in time when IS are ready to pursue the marketing benefits from Merch, until then I'll assume that they're happy to just focus on the core product.

    [EDIT: Afterthought, Intrepid do charity events. Find out when the next one is and donate on behalf of your followers]
    Forum_Signature.png
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2021
    Yeah that's a hard no dude. Too many holes in it, too much of a slope just waiting to be greased and used incorrectly.

    Also after reading most of the posts in here from OP specifically, I hope you never become an official CC. Everything has been outlined for you, the correct reasonings used in every avenue and yet you STILL want to go with that "No i'm right and your wrong" approach. Nah, we don't need that.
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    This is an old post that someone resurrected for no good reason lol.

    In the end I got what I wanted so all the recent comments from this week are moot.

    I have been giving away AoC Themed Merch for months. Stickers, Coffee Mugs, Face Masks, Mouse Pad, even a wall hanging. All at my expense and with permission to use the AoC Phoenix and Intrepid Studio Logo.

    As long as I do not sell any of it I can give it away and as much as like. Just needed to find a compromise.

    Thanks for your comments, from both sides.
    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
This discussion has been closed.