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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Please Let Us Gift Something AoC!!!
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Just remember that the biggest “RMT purists” around are the folks at Intrepid Studios, and Steven Sharif in particular. I’m not sure you know how much you’re blowing against a hurricane here.
I have never suggested such a thing. If you took the time to read/watch the video, I make it very clear I am willing to BUY anything I give away so that I am both showing my appreciation to my community and supporting AoC. I am already buying every thing I give away.
My point is that I am giving away other games to people while they support me making AoC content.
Love a good story and lore.
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I even suggested unique Desktop images. It doesn't have to be gifting anything from the store. It was just a suggestion because it would also help support AoC.
These people who think RMT can be prevented will just complain about how if I am able to buy AoC apparel that someone in game could just give me gold in trade for a T-Shirt.
They are just too chicken to come out and say they want absolutely no way or no one the ability to gift/award anyone anything AoC related. I bet they would give Steven crap if he gave out T-Shirts because one of them might be sold in game for gold. It's rather insane and unrealistic.
@Atama I will say it again. As long as there are trade able items in game and you can trade currency, there will be people paying cash for gold/items in game. It is an inevitability and you can not prevent it. Someone will figure out a way to do it. It may be as simple as putting up an item(s) in the AH as the buyer of gold and the seller sees your name and buys all the items which would total the purchase. You price the items 5x more than they should normally go for and it's done.
People put low quality stuff in AH all the time to try and scam/catch the people not paying attention to make easy money. So it's not going to look all that much out of the ordinary and I am not even trying to think of ways to beat the system because I don't want gold selling either. I'm just adult enough to know it will happen regardless. It's like Drinking and Driving. Despite all the laws and prevention, people still do it and based on statistics most people get home and no one gets hurt, but when accidents do happen it often costs lives. In this situation if a Guild is pulling a Method, then yes, it can have some consequences for a server economy. Most of the time no one likely knows. There is clearly profit in it because I see gold sellers in every MMO I've ever played. AoC wont be unique. What I have pointed out multiple times is how much gold really wont matter because in the end gear is not BoP/Soulbound. The highest tier stuff will be far more common than in other games and this is a SKILL based game with Action Combat being a big part of it so even with the best gear, if you suck you suck. There is no pay to win in combat. At best you buy yourself 1 or two more hits or time to bunny hop a few more times.
You could argue that a player may be able to buy a freehold or house in a City with gold. Ok... Not a huge advantage there. Someone is going to do it regardless. The plots are limited and guaranteed to sell. Sure, you'll be a little upset if some punk bought one out from under you with gold gold they didn't earn in the traditional sense.That has NOTHING to do with my post and ideas. NOTHING what so ever. Because no where in my post is gold mentioned, or implied. What I have said is people will likely give me gold for no reason like they do with Azmongold and I will buy that plot out from under you with gold I didn't earn in the traditional sense. Are you going to demand I be banned because that is in effect RMT. People are giving me gold because they enjoy my out of game content and want to help me get an edge to create more content? There are more holes if your anti-RMT arguments than swiss chese.
You and all the others on this RMT train are completely ignoring the entire point and purpose of my post and have hijacked it and even in your hijacking moved the goal posts. Good job on being a negative part of this community in doing so.
You could have instead offered other ideas. Like Desktop Wall papers that Creators could get that are unique. Maybe we, as creators, work with an Intrepid Artist for a fee to have a logo put in the game for banners that is in theme with the game but also looks like our brand out side of it. My logo for either my guild or the Radio would fit in perfectly. You can see both below in my signature. Then we could gift a Code that would allow for players to have access to our logo to wear or show.
Try being more creative and less negative. Don't hijack posts and be a better community member because your community building arguments kinda suck and it doesn't make me feel welcome as a new creator to this game and to the people who are new to AoC who also support me, you don't make them feel welcome either. This thread will be a topic of my show tonight too. 6pst/9est Phoenix Radio Online or watch my Twitch. Feel free to join in on the conversation.
You and others should be better ambassadors if you want this game to succeed and to grow.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
If you think that RMT and P2W are no big deal, I don’t think you know very much about this game or what it’s about, or care much about it either. Which makes me wonder why you’re even here. You have the attitude that RMTs will happen anyway, so why not ignore them if it is more convenient for you. That’s not very positive at all, it’s selfish.
So why are you even here? Is it to spam and get publicity for the streams you’re promoting right now? You don’t strike me as someone who wants to be part of this community, you look like someone that just wants to use it for personal gain. I have no desire to be an ambassador to someone like that.
Also, I’ve tried to suggest compromises in this thread, offering ideas about codes that content creators could get to distribute. Others pointed out that my ideas were also abusable. I’ve perhaps been a bit too generous. Of course then I’m attacked for being unwelcoming. I don’t feel much guilt for that.
This is a very valid point. And well worded.
You don't need to buy your community, if they enjoy your content, then they're already enjoying it.
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They arent asking the devs to give them stuff, they just want to buy it for others.
I think that if they made an option where you can choose to buy it for you or gift and if you want to if gift it to someone then it goes directly to their account then there wouldnt be p2w involved since the one receiving doesnt have to get in a trade for it, but if they want to give something to the content creater after i dont see a problem because that would be happening anyway just like how people donate on twitch without getting nothing from it, they can also want to give items or currency even without getting a gift.
If you want to go further just bound the cosmetics to the account that bought it or that got gifted and they wont be able to trade it.
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Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
It's just better to be cosmetics because it feels better to the one receiving, i also like the idea of paying for subscriptions but giving in game items would be that good because everyone can already get it without paying just by playing. It's like gifting someone a car or a pair of socks, you wouldn't want to get socks since you can afford it yourself (not calling anyone poor just an expression xD).
this has been a way to p2w for ages lol.
Every game with bound cash shop items had a huge market for gifting cash shop items in exchange for ingame currency (if there was a gifting option). With the added bonus of rampant scammers.
This suggestion is opening the door for all kinds of shady shit.
/facepalm
You are clearly trying to pick a fight with me and I am not going to take the bait. You keep hijacking the point of this thread. You are behaving like a troll and masking it behind "good intentions". You also keep trying to put words in my mouth that I never said. Do you work for the main stream media?
Clearly trying to explain to you how wrong you are about me is like explaining a tractor to a plant.
Good Day Sir.
I have never asked for or suggested I wanted anything given. I have stated I am willing to pay for anything that is made available and not just limited to the two suggestion I made. I have made other suggestions and no one has responded. It's like you all are only reading part of this thread and ignoring the rest of it on purpose.
Why is showing appreciation some how synonymous with buying favor for you?
I don't understand why there are those of you who ignore the spirit and intent of my post and continually try to make it about something it is not.
You all seriously need more appreciation and gratitude in your lives.
If you can't stay on point with the spirit and intent of my post then consider spending your time elsewhere. I am not promoting RMT and it's quite disingenuous for you to try and twist why I am here when I have never seen either of you in my stream to begin with. This doesn't make you look good and it sets a very bad standard for new people to the community like myself. I don't know why you have an issue with me or is it with all the new creators who have joined AoC? You may want to take account of your actions and how it reflects on this community. Perhaps you need to self audit your behaviours before you risk driving away people from this community.
For me, I'll just call you out on stream because I wont stand for bullies, even the ones who think they are being clever enough to not overtly look like one, and I will talk about how wrong you are and misguided and make my points there to my growing audience of supporters. You've become part of my content now and to be fair I have argued on your behalf in my two streams where I have talked about this thread and been quite generous in arguing your points against RMT because I do agree with you.
To those who do understand the point, thank you. It is appreciated knowing that some people have the ability to comprehend the idea of saying thank you to those who give their time and support to creators and would like to have something to give back to reflect that appreciation. Even small tokens matter, like holding the door open for a stranger and hearing them say "Thank You" It makes what you did more meaning full.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
I try to be welcoming and supportive of people who want to play this game and be supportive of it. You aren’t portraying yourself that way. You want to be able to gift people who follow you (I’m not going to sink so low as to call it a “bribe”, I don’t think that’s fair) but when we point out the harm that could come from opening that door you attack people. I’m not the one trying to start a fight, you’re starting a fight with the whole community here. You should try to rethink your approach if you intend to promote yourself further on this board because you’re not looking very good.
Seems to me there is a lot of "missing the point" going on between you and a few others and yeah I quite frankly Don't feel very welcome in this community because of yours and others responses.
RMT and P2W has nothing to do with the OP"s Point. instead of trying to make this thread and the OP something their not. Try being a little more Constructive with your Replies.
In what way am I transparent?
I didn't jump on you. I used your own RMT logic against your own points to make the point you can't escape RMT. Not in any way supporting RMT. Your suggestions were no different than mine in the big picture.
I am not insulting anyone that isn't insulting me first. And I've not really insulted anyone until the last few replies by you and that other guy who was particularly offensive.
You seem to not recognize those who understand my post and agree with it's context. You have just insulted all of them. Your lack of self awareness of you're own comments is sadly not surprising.
You have never embraced or even tried to understand my point. You've done nothing but try to hijack the topic to fit your own agenda and again accuse me of falsehoods. Yes, You are dismissed because you are off topic and out of context.
If people have already supported me... how is showing appreciation after that fact even remotely suggestable as being a kin to a bribe. This just proves your ignorance of the point I am trying to make. How is trying to SHOW MY APPRECIATION to others bribery? Yes you are implying such by even mentioning the word.
I did not attack people who attacked me first. I've defended my position and my personal integrity which you and others have attacked.
You've done nothing but ignore the context and purpose of my post. I am not fighting with the community, I hope they are insulted that you suggest you speak for them, because there are those who agree with me who are part of this community. More than the 3 or 4 of you attacking me here. They agree with my intent because they have taken the time to understand it and not just wait for their turn to talk.
If you could recognize your own smugness you would be embarrassed.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
Don't put Quotations where there is no legit QUOTE. No he DID NOT say to make RMT more prevalent ever....lol your reaching hard here. Read the whole thread word for word before making such an accusation and again, Just don't quote someone for something they didn't say making the next reader mislead by YOUR words not the OP's
Imagine getting crapped on for wanting to find a way to Support your supporters. That's 2020 for ya I guess.
If I remember correctly, a couple of streamers gave away armor/mount codes to their viewers during Apocalypse. Those codes were given to them by Intrepid Studios.
It would be favoritism if IS gave the codes for CCs to keep.
In my opinion, it goes like that. You reward viewers with your content, the company rewards you with their content (in this case, cosmetic codes to giveaway).
As someone who has worked with a couple of companies like Riot, (we were running a MOBA forum where we reviewed every live/upcoming MOBA game) you have an agreement with them to NOT use the codes for yourself and to NOT sell the codes (the codes were obviously for skins that were made for giveaways like Riot Singed for example). It's also easy for the company to track who used the code.
Note: This is MY opinion and does not represent Intrepid Studios in any way.
If you’re seriously going to keep saying “there’s no such things as P2W” then there’s no reasonable discussion to be had with you.
And shut the hell up about lies when you’re lying right now. You did say RMT will happen regardless, and you called that reason to throw out very real concerns of what essentially becomes in-game supported RMTs. You said it again just now.
Azmongold SHOULDN’T be getting gold. I think it’s a godawful thing to cater to streamers with tangible in-game benefits.
The fact that illegal out of game transactions will occur does NOT mean there should be systems included that WILL cause people to trade cosmetic gifts for in game gold. All that does is make the RMT in-house, meaning the company is profiting off RMTs which is unethical in so many ways, especially for a company that is explicitly against being able to use cash to get a leg-up in the game.
You’re being ridiculous and dishonest and to be perfectly clear I think you know full well how unethical gifting cash shop “gifting” is.
Have you seen ANY game add “gifting” that wasn’t obviously to turn RMTs into an in-house affair? I watched cash shop gifting launch in ESO, and everyone knew it was just a way for Zenimax to profit of gold buyers. That’s all gifting ever ends up as. Obviously making their entire gold buying process able to be done in-game will make RMTs more prevalent. It’d be stupid to think otherwise.
Not even mentioning how the OP thinks P2W doesn’t exist in an MMO, so why would they give a crap if this system they’re asking for enables P2W. In their head, it doesn’t even exist as a possibility.
You have yet to make any argument of what P2W is or could be in AoC. I have agreed that it can give someone an advantage. You have yet to support your point with anything more than a 'because I say so' position. If you want to try and debate, then you need to have more of an argument.
No I did not. Learn to read and comprehend. Just because someone points out a fact, doesn't mean they like the fact to be true. RMT WILL happen as long as gold and items can be trade-able in game. It's just a fact. I have never supported any in-game systems for it that are exclusively for RMT.
Do I support an AH system? Yes, of course. Trading items for gold, or the ability to give items or gold to help out my guildies? Yes, those are called GAME MECHANICS. You don't have much of a game with out them.
Why not? It's not your gold/items. You should be able to give it to anyone you want to in game. Just like you can give your real world money to anyone you want to in real life. Do you buy merch? Do you go see movies? Do you buy music? That's you supporting the actors, musicians and such that you choose to support. How is it any different for people who are a fan of an in game character to support them the same way by gifting them things. Who are you to play dictator and say they can't. You need a better reason than what you give because Role Playing is a thing for AoC and it's perfectly reasonable to role play as a fan of a character.
You seem to have a personal issue with streamers as a concept. That's a different issue and I get it. I as a streamer do not ask for anything more than Follows if people like my content. I do have systems in place for those who choose to sub or gift but anyone, even non-followers have the same access to the give aways I have. There is no pay wall. The only difference between someone who say lurks vs a sub is time.
- My suggestion was for Content Creator's ONLY to have the ability to buy something from AoC that we can give away, if we can also lock it to the gifted account then you eliminate the player who won from selling, but it doesn't stop the risk of the Content Creator to still fix a system for cash. NOT a general system made available for everyone/all players. Along with that is a, it shouldn't have needed to be said, system where Creators have to agree not to abuse the system and you have to trust they will be honest and ethical (majority will).
- So WoW, EvE Online and every single Free to play game are unethical? You must not play very many games as even most of the Single player games have some kind of Store now I'm finding.
RMT is a business model that many companies use to pay their bills so players can play a game at no cost to them. You can play Guild Wars 2, Albion Online and others and never pay a dollar to the company. AoC has a cash shop. That's a form of Real World Trading or Real Money Trading. You pay cash for something they give you in game. That's RMT in a nutshell and many of you have made that exact point. Now it's cosmetic only so it has no real in game impact. But let's not try to mislead people about what RMT actually is.
What you are ACTUALLY against, and I am with you 100% on this, is PLAYERS earning money and doing the same thing. Even though the cosmetics are useless to gain an advantage and you want to ignore all the times a guild leader will be given gold/items and streamers will be given gold/items which is perfectly legal and legit.
I am being the only being honest here and realistic. I agree people paying for cash shop items with in game gold is not right if the developers don't want it to be a thing. AoC could VERY easily have a vendor at the Metro Level that would allow players to buy Cosmetic Items with Gold... In fact, I grantee it's going to happen. It may not be the Out of Game Store which will be cash only, but in game vendors WILL sell items that can be used for cosmetics. Which one of us is being unethical and untruthful here?
I have been perfectly honest. I have admitted my purpose and intent and been unwavering. I have recognized that things I don't like either will be a thing and tried to suggest some sensible ways to limit those things we do not want from being. Others have too, but their suggestions can also be abused for RMT as well.
You have not made any case to disprove me. I have stated why I do not think P2W exists in any MMO that I have ever played. I think I spelled it out quite well. You have yet to make ANY argument that P2W exists in a game with no end. What can you do in an MMO that I can't given enough time? Prove Me Wrong!
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
One of the points that has been made is that real world trading will happen no matter what so why does it matter? well the reason it matter is because having that system will just make it a lot easier for people to do it and many more people will at that point and it will make it much harder to track and ban the offenders.
Another thing that has been said is that it would only be available to content creators so it probably will not make it that much harder to track. So who can be considered a content creator? If I make 1-10 videos on AoC and i have 1-50 subscribers on YT am I considered a content creator now? What's stopping anyone from becoming or claiming they're a content creator? Intrepid is I think, which is a good thing.
I don't know what their criteria is but I think that only a few select official content creators should have that perk and in order to become an official content creator there must be a pretty high bar to go over. Maybe have a certain amount of followers on twitch or subscribers on YT with also having at least say 100 people referred when they created their account and then you could be considered by Intrepid to possibly be a content creator but not guaranteed.
I think the standards should be that high so something like this doesn't get exploited by people looking to get on the hype train to build followers. After all the content creators should provide something to Intrepid as well. It should not be just a one way road.This is to stop what happened with Valorant from happening again. Content creators should already have a following and that's what they provide to Intrepid and AoC, publicity, free marketing. Not that they need it at this point.
The one last thing is that how the system should work is that beta keys or cosmetics should be given randomly. In order to accomplish that a system like a raffle could work. A content creator would send a list of people to Intrepid with obviously a minimum number of people of say maybe 500 or 1000 people and Intrepid would be the ones to basically decide who the winner is. A software system could easily be developed to handle something like that so Intrepid wouldn't really handle it manually.
One last note, those items whether cosmetics or in game membership or beta keys should be auto redeemed to the account, and those items that are gifted through this process just like any cash shop items, should be untradeable, even cosmetics. The only cosmetics that should be tradeable should be the ones that can only be acquired in game, this will help with the issues of real world trading for in game money or items.
https://mygift.giftcardmall.com/
The question we should be discussing is how to facilitate ways of giving back that are not intended as RMT but may be abused if no proper prevention methods are implemented.
Some posts here do not engage with that issue and thus I am under the impression this whole thread is needlessly derailed by that.
So, let me try and rectify that:
Assuming there could be a way (for CC specifically or any other player) to gift these pre-release cosmetics to other players, how do you think this way should look like to make sure it does not get abused for RMT?
Any other ideas I missed or you want to propose?
Thank god Intrepid has more sense than you do.
People like you are the reason modern MMOs have devolved into designed inconveniences to sell cash shop solutions. They’re the ones who keep making excuses for the lines getting crossed and pushed over and over.
I’m not wasting any more time on someone either too blind or too uncaring to acknowledge how badly their mindset ruins games.
Not really... You pay someone in game X gold and they buy that and mail it to you.
As long as players can trade anything in game, you can't eliminate RMT.
Love a good story and lore.
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If you track the cosmetics and you audit the CC then you create a system in which you would catch impropriety easily and quickly. There is no system where you can protect 100% against abuse. All you can do is try and keep everyone honest and when someone does break the rules you come down hard to set an example.
With all the metrics you can track in game it shouldn't be hard to figure out if someones gold is legit or not. You flag all transactions of a type and you monitor chat logs for key words.
You can't track out of game stuff, but there are in game actions that can give things away. Some of which I have mentioned. The main solution is keeping the pool of people that can gift small (in relation to server pops) Limit on how many per server and you make sure there is a direct CM that manages the CC's.
Make CC's keep logs of who won and how, time/dates for vods if they exist or the methods by which someone won ready for review should something come up in question. Make the CC responsible for proving, on their side, it was a legit transaction. If there are still doubts the CC understand that the gold/item would be removed from their account until the investigation is complete. The CMs would have a better idea if a player's gold is legitimate or not.
When a CC is gifted something from the community AoC will need to trust there is no out of game exchange/compensation. There really isn't any way to prove that someone gifting a CC in game gold or items is doing so for any other reason than to support that CC unless something in the gifting account is suspicious that the CC is unaware of.
In all the above. If there are still doubts the CC understand that the gold/item would be removed from their account until the investigation is complete.
There will always be a risk.
Love a good story and lore.
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Yes, I am sure IS/SS has enough sense to understand that RMT will be a thing and that they will do everything they can, reasonably, to make it as inconvenient for anyone to take advantage of any in game systems to prevent RMT.
Reading your comments tells me that you want 100% no means by which any system can result in RMT. In order to do that you can have no trading of gold or items between players, no AH, no in game chat, no grouping and no other players on the server. You might as well go play a single player game.
You seem to have a hate for Streamers. Sorry, but they are part of the culture and life blood of a successful MMO. Even the small ones. You can't stop people gifting us in game gold/items. You can't stop us from gifting anything, AoC or not AoC related after launch.
You also seem to not understand how Businesses work or how Free to Play Games afford for you to play for free and yes I think a lot of their models are cancer.
Since you are unable to form an actual point to counter any of mine, in addition to my previous point, I won't bother explaining these things to you because it's wasted effort.
The irony is, we both seem to agree that RMT isn't good for the game. Somehow you are too blind to see that, so I guess because you are blind, I must be too. Sounds pretty socialist and your comments seem to back that up.
Love a good story and lore.
Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
If stuff gifted to others from a CC are bound to account or to specific characters how is that going to turn into RMT/P2W? if its BOUND cannot be traded? moved to another person...only between the account holders characters? That being said ignore the fact that someone on their own terms could support that CC after the fact. Thats not RMT/P2W thats Supporting your CC. All these things being gifted only being Cosmetic. NO Benefit to the ability of the character, keeping that in mind. Also don't use the arguement that the CC will use gold he got from the person who wants to support them on the AH because thats not RMT/P2W either. I could play this game from day one and my friend could join the game 5 months or a year later and I could give him thousands of gold as soon as he logs in. Thats not RMT/P2W thats supporting someone your playing the game with and enjoy same as if a CC gets gold from people. Sure they could not accept it but lets be real this is going to happen.
You can say this shouldn't happen. So what do we do? Completely stop CC from playing the game? ZERO streamers allowed because people might and WILL give their favourite CC's gold or items?
Answer this, Do you right now believe AoC will release without RMT/P2W? ignore this whole conversation and just answer the question without anything influencing other then the facts we know that players will infact be able to trade between each other items and gold.
AoC is already engaged in RMT because you pay them Cash to get In-game items.
IS and Steven have defined pay 2 win and it will not exist in game. Saying that you don't accept it does not change the position that IS has adopted.
Ashes of Creation will not be pay to win, that is our pledge to the community. One of the core principles we set forth with Ashes of Creation is a very strong desire to maintain the game's even playing field.[14]
My definition of pay-to-win is really anything that affects the in-game economy, the in-game action pool, your abilities and/or skills... In my opinion the inventory slots and the XP potions would be considered pay-to-win.[16] – Steven Sharif
Source: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Payment_model#Pay_to_win
Players using gold to purchase cosmetics that were bought with cash has a direct impact on the economy.
Is there any game in which you pay cash and then the game is over, you have won? I doubt it. You have redefined pay 2 win to suit your argument of allow pay 2 win mechanics, you just don't call it that because pay 2 win will not be in the game.
The common meaning of pay 2 win describes winning at aspects of a game that you will continue to play such as winning a fight or increasing your wealth. This is such a common definition of pay 2 win that it is even in the wiki after having been referenced from a CNBC news article: "In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage, which can not be obtained otherwise, over his or her non-paying peers, which is shown in games such as FIFA. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#:~:text=In general a game is,to-win" by critics.
No. As you love to point out, RMT will happen to some extent. However, systems that greatly benefit RMT should not be used. Your examples of the auction house, trading between players, in game chat, grouping, and no other players on the server do not greatly benefit RMT but do greatly benefit players actually focused on the game rather than RMT.
There's something called common sense. You should apply it to your arguments. People will be less angry with you.