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Rogue Stealth

XinshuXinshu Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
So in most mmorpgs I tend to mostly play rogues. I like to be able to surprise my opponent and rogues having stealth is just a must have. My opinion on rogues stealth is that true invisibility should be obtainable. I like that at Rank 1 of stealth which you have in the game already is somewhat still visible. Its my hope that at rank 2 you can make your speed or duration longer and keeping the same visual, that being said. I really want to see Rank 3 achieve full invisibility. I know alot of people who hate rogues in other mmos hate the fact that you cant see them. Some of my suggestions to help appease this would be give stealth a duration, for example Stealth last 45secs, and has a 10 second cooldown, or something along those lines. Also I think that only Rogue primary class should be the only ones with Stealth as a skill. I dont want to see every class being able to stealth.
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Comments

  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    Here is a video that somebody linked on the forums a few days ago that shows stealthing.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    People are just too used to WoW stealth imo. I feel like true invisibility should only be obtainable when you arent moving at all or are far enough behind someone, or far enough away in general. Otherwise you should be somewhat visible when within a certain range of someone, moving, and depending on positioning.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    A bit better to see from a current gameplay perspective:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJnf4XeAWug
    a6XEiIf.gif
  • XinshuXinshu Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yes i have seen this, part of the reason why i made this post. Ive played other mmos with the same type of stealth. You can still see them and almost made the skill useless. My thought on making true invisibility at rank 3 is that you sacrifice some dps or utility by having to put more points into the stealth skill.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Xinshu wrote: »
    Yes i have seen this, part of the reason why i made this post. Ive played other mmos with the same type of stealth. You can still see them and almost made the skill useless. My thought on making true invisibility at rank 3 is that you sacrifice some dps or utility by having to put more points into the stealth skill.

    Takes away the point of being a rogue at that point, full invis for stealth is just one of those things that dont make sense. At that point I would say may another stat that affects players ability to percieve stealthed players farther away the higher that attribute is. You cant just say someone is so sneaky they arent even visible when walking up to you, thats what most people get angry about. Also this is coming from someone who is wanting to play predator so.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • XinshuXinshu Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Its just a personal preference for me being able to achieve fill invis. I will still play rogue and enjoy the game. If they leave it where its at and you cannot have full invis, it will just be one of those things you have to deal with. Its kinda like dealing with how broken stealth is in wow. I dont know why but from all of the years playing rogues in wow, stealth has always be broken, being taken out of stealth for no reason. Nothing hits you, no dots nothing. Or being stuck in combat while in stealth no where near any mobs. I just want stealth to work properly for once.
  • XinshuXinshu Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Or maybe the only way to have full invis as a rogue is IF mage has a invis spell, you have to be a Nightspell and you augment stealth with the invis spell.
  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    Xinshu wrote: »
    Or maybe the only way to have full invis as a rogue is IF mage has a invis spell, you have to be a Nightspell and you augment stealth with the invis spell.

    True invis to Assassin (+maybe night spell) while others have the stealth?
  • XinshuXinshu Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yes I like that as well. I just hope they dont give stealth or invis to everyone if they decide to have rogue or mage as a subclass
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Warth wrote: »
    Xinshu wrote: »
    Or maybe the only way to have full invis as a rogue is IF mage has a invis spell, you have to be a Nightspell and you augment stealth with the invis spell.

    True invis to Assassin (+maybe night spell) while others have the stealth?

    Why would an assassin gain invisibility? The Nightspell could get away with it because magic, so what is it that gives the assassin the ability to be invisible in plain sight?
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • I typically play rogue/assassin in everything as well, and honestly I'm excited for this type of iteration on stealth.

    No reason for full invis, thats a long standing mmo stigma for rogue thats annoying honestly. This iteration takes some skill to use instead of just being invisible and automatically getting the jump on someone.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I typically play rogue/assassin in everything as well, and honestly I'm excited for this type of iteration on stealth.

    No reason for full invis, thats a long standing mmo stigma for rogue thats annoying honestly. This iteration takes some skill to use instead of just being invisible and automatically getting the jump on someone.

    agreed, I feel like it will raise the skill needed to succeed as a rogue. Separating all of the people who play the class for instant kills and easy play from the people who will turn it into a new sort of animal relying on player skill and positioning
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • XinshuXinshu Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I look at it in this way from the type of class development this game is implementing. Your main archetype come from the class you choose in the beginning( Rogue). Subclasses change the way your character is developed in the choice you make. You make choices to level certain abilities. Take stealth as the choice, stealth can be ranked up, instead of a skill that does damage for instance. If you rank up stealth AND choose mage as a subclass and from all those skills that you can choose to augment a primary skill you choose stealth and invis for instance to make stealth a full invis ability. You are making a choice to do less damage or have less utility that you might have if you chose to take stealth and augment say charge from a tank ability and it now changes stealth to be like a shadowstep ability and appear behind your target. Its a choice that I hope is allowed, having full invis. With all the classes and subclasses and being able to augment skills the way you want makes the diversity of the game truly appealing. Just cause you dont like it doesnt mean its wrong. Either way if they dont have full invis, ill still be happy with the stealth they already have.
  • For myself i'm dying to see the full skillset for rogue. The video hints at a bunch of things i just can't wait for the wiki to define them for sure. I do believe used skillfully the level of cloaking will be quite effective. As someone that often likes to play alone and explore out in the world i can see it being just fine. Even PvP with so much going on it'll be pretty hard to locate imo. Secondary augment too will be a curious choice still theorycrafting that in my head ...lol
  • XinshuXinshu Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I would just like to see it as a option for augmenting it to a full invis. I probably wont even take it. Id rather have a shadowstep ability or even maybe a regen hp or mp, when you enter stealth if your augment stealth with say a cleric spell, or bard spell. Theres so much you can do with all these ability's. One other thing I thought about is, take stealth and augment it with a summoner ability and it leaves a decoy that takes off running in a direction as to u go full invis for say 3 secs. Im not looking for Wow invis at all. I dont want full invis for unlimited time. If they do give full invis through augments and choices you make. I think it should be drastically reduced time. Say stealth lasts 30 secs. And you choose to augment it to be full invis. I think it should last 10 seconds or something like that.
  • XinshuXinshu Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I also think that what some people might not be taking into account is stealth is a strong ability in a rogues toolkit. If its visible still (the way it looks now). The game has a hybrid combat system. From all the combat videos ive seen all classes have a free action combat swing that tends to be a cone in front of your character. Which if you think you saw a stealthy you can then start to spam swing in that direction or use aoe abilites to bring them out. Say for instance you are playing a ranger and you not only can start spamming arrows in their direction you also have aoe abilites that seem quite large in the game. I just don't want to see stealth being useless cause u saw them for a split second. Game is still in development and im curious to see what they do with rogues. Rogues are my favorite.
  • Amaranth68Amaranth68 Member
    edited September 2020
    As to the theorycraft in my head and to your point in the thread Xinshu it's possible by doubleing down on rogue and giving up the other class augments maybe just maybe the stealth will be even harder to see but i don't see them doing a full invisibility... just doesn't seem the way they're gonna go...
  • XinshuXinshu Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Just have to wait and see, just from the video of the stealth they have already. Its too visible imo. I do hope they make it less visible through augments or some kind of mechanic.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    I'm ok either way w/stealth. Full invis doesn't bother me - I always took it as it was too hard to implement a full camouflage system (especially with health bars). IRL an assassin hides in plain sight, because you don't know they're an enemy until you've already been stabbed, shot, poisoned, etc.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • I'm hoping by alpha 2 they have it fleshed out to play around with. Open world i see the class being really fun. initial thoughts of things bounty-hunter for corrupted if they show, solo dungeon looking for secret things, taming to sneak up...dunno caravan in sight but a distance protector...to name a few
  • Hurf DerfmanHurf Derfman Member
    edited September 2020
    My expectation:
    (WoW stealth+ Gw2 stealth)* Halo active cammo /D&D hide = AoC stealth

    Let me explain.

    Baseline ability pre augments at rank 3:
    Instant cast. Toggle- 6 second cool down. Reduced movement speed OR has a mana upkeep of x per second.
    (Or both)

    Stealth- gain active cammo, hides nameplates and health bar. Generate x less threat. Remaining stationary for 2 seconds grants complete invis and for 3 seconds after moving. Going full invis, makes enemies drop target and threat.

    Taking or dealing damage suppresses the benefits of active camo for 6 seconds. This six second effect would refresh every time you deal/take dmg so you'd have to decide to toggle stealth off to avoid the upkeep penalties.

    Doge rolls would not break invis.

    This way active skills and augments could change the values, reduce penalties grant damage buffs ECT.

    As for other classes who sub rogue, I see them getting a lesser stealth that adds a weaker active cammo that is tied to a cooldown and grants a tertiary effect.

    A tank/rogue for example wouldn't reduce threat or drop target but instead gain x percent dodge rating.

    Maybe a mage/rogue doesn't gain stealth at all but something like blink grants 2 seconds of invis.

    This is all pure speculation on my part but I'm basing it off the known skills for the classes that have them on the wiki.
  • HiddenDaggerInnHiddenDaggerInn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »
    People are just too used to WoW stealth imo. I feel like true invisibility should only be obtainable when you arent moving at all or are far enough behind someone, or far enough away in general. Otherwise you should be somewhat visible when within a certain range of someone, moving, and depending on positioning.

    Full Stealth was in Long before World of Warcraft. DAoC had some great stealth, it was a game inside a game walking by another stealthed player.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2020
    Sandman wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    People are just too used to WoW stealth imo. I feel like true invisibility should only be obtainable when you arent moving at all or are far enough behind someone, or far enough away in general. Otherwise you should be somewhat visible when within a certain range of someone, moving, and depending on positioning.

    Full Stealth was in Long before World of Warcraft. DAoC had some great stealth, it was a game inside a game walking by another stealthed player.

    Oh I wasnt implying that WoW originally made that design, I was just meaning that it was made popular and the standard among MMOs by them. It simply is because so many people have played WoW that they are all groomed to that style of stealth.

    GJjUGHx.gif
  • HiddenDaggerInnHiddenDaggerInn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I personally agree with the OP that full stealth should be attainable, in games that require strategic attacks scouts are imperative. I do however believe it should come at a cost, because we don't want to see lots of people using it, only true stealthers, maybe rangers.

    Also for people who hate stealth, there should be a few classes with unique stealth finding options so they would have the option to feel safer with those classes.
  • HartwellHartwell Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2020
    There are three ways to improve stealth in Planetside 2:
    • Render distance of stealthed targets.
    • How much shimmer is on the player.
    • Duration of the effect.

    If Ashes of Creation wanted to, they could have a passive spell for the shimmer distance of all stealth abilities on rogues.
    Rank 1: Far away render distance.
    Rank 2: Still pretty far, but a much closer render distance.
    Rank 3: Mid range render distance.

    Then they could give a long duration stealth ability, distinct from short duration stealth abilities.
    Rank 1: 1 minute.
    Rank 2: 2 minutes.
    Rank 3: No duration.

    Then the last thing would be shimmer amount. This could be something adjusted through rogue secondary augments.
  • XinshuXinshu Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2020
    My want for full invis to be obtainable thru augments or some other mechanic like a passive that you have to rank up is mainly for battlegrounds, arenas or protecting caravans. I don't want someone to be like: Come across a caravan and they stop and look around and see multiple shimmers and see there's 10 rogues out there in stealth lets not attack that caravan. Or in a battleground see a rogue heading towards a point of interest or objective and let their team know. The full invis would benefit alot in these types of situations. For all the people who hate the idea of full invis for open world pvp, theres a anti-greifing mechanic set in place for the game called corruption. If you get jumped by a rogue and you dont like to pvp you dont have to fight back and the rogue would then get corruption. Bounter hunters should get the ability to detect stealth players and at certain distance.( I hope if you decide to kill someone and get corruption that you are still able to stealth). Also im not against certain classes or subclasses getting an ability to detect stealth either but should have to invest just as much skill points to detect the stealth. Also I believe if full invis for stealth being obtainable would give the class a more needed feel to have rogues in you party or group. And it would mean having a class that has the ability to detect stealth would be needed to have as well. (Having lookouts) for castle sieges or (scouts) to see if there's any weak points in their defense.
  • Seeing the stealth in the videos makes me truly worried that it will just become player's best interest to change their graphics setup to give the highest contrast for detecting stealthed characters - this is definitely going to bite Intrepid in the a**
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I seriously think that Stealth should be a rogue main class ability.
    a6XEiIf.gif
  • Damokles wrote: »
    I seriously think that Stealth should be a rogue main class ability.

    I think, that the best stealth should be under the purview of rogues but there's no reason to limit it from subclasses having a version of active camouflage.
  • ExSpetsnazExSpetsnaz Member
    edited September 2020
    Xinshu wrote: »
    I look at it in this way from the type of class development this game is implementing. Your main archetype come from the class you choose in the beginning( Rogue). Subclasses change the way your character is developed in the choice you make. You make choices to level certain abilities. Take stealth as the choice, stealth can be ranked up, instead of a skill that does damage for instance. If you rank up stealth AND choose mage as a subclass and from all those skills that you can choose to augment a primary skill you choose stealth and invis for instance to make stealth a full invis ability. You are making a choice to do less damage or have less utility that you might have if you chose to take stealth and augment say charge from a tank ability and it now changes stealth to be like a shadowstep ability and appear behind your target. Its a choice that I hope is allowed, having full invis. With all the classes and subclasses and being able to augment skills the way you want makes the diversity of the game truly appealing. Just cause you dont like it doesnt mean its wrong. Either way if they dont have full invis, ill still be happy with the stealth they already have.
    Yeah they can make it similar to the Arcane Trickster Rogue subclass in D&D. Supplement the rogue's innate stealth capabilities with some magical trickery. I'd be surprised if a full invisibility doesn't exist in the game in some form, though I agree that it should come at the cost of something else.
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