If you really think about it, it makes for sense that a low leveled player wouldn't be as powerful or knowledgeable as a higher leveled player. Meaning that fireball for a low leveled player would take longer and more focus to cast it compared to a higher leveled player.
I agree, and there are several things that can be adjusted for this. For example longer initial state on the first animation which is the "slowing down" animation to a full stop. A high level player may skill into that part getting faster to reach max potential of damage quicker, while a new player spends more time to get max damage output, but he also moves further while channeling.
I think that would be a good balance of power and level, and it would make combat more rewarding earlier on imo.
Example:
A level 5 player spends 30 frames to slow down, 30 frames to channel, and 30 frames to do the "ultimate" animation at the end before a 15 frame animation sends the skill away. In total 105 frames for max damage.
A level 50 player spends 15 frames to slow down, 30 frames to channel and 20 frames to do the "ultimate" animation at the end before a 15 frame animation sends the ability away. In total 80 frames for max damage.
(In NA 30 frames = 1 seconds for an animator. In EU its 24/25 frames, so you guys can put it into perspective. I guess this game would use a 30 frame setup.)
The beauty of this, is that the skilling system could actually differentiate between "build up", "loop" and "finish" speed to change how players wants the skill to function, and all of this is controlled by the procedural animation system.
A faster "build up" means you end up in movement-lock faster. (good to reach max dmg earlier)
A slower "build up" means you get more movement freedom for a longer time.
An alternative "loop" animation may be used for longer channeling time for people who wants to stay that way to get the aim right before its released. Or if the ability is altered through the second Archetype.
A faster "finish" animation gives the ability a higher velocity. Longer reach, faster to hit target means its also an easier skill to aim for example.
@oophus I don't really understand how it would work physically. If I press the button would I "charge" the ability during the time I hold the button, and after I release it then the animation would happen? Or maybe I missed something xD
Having a "charge" up would be cool but then the animation of the release of the fire ball should happen instantly when I let go of the button, otherwise it will feel even more "clunky". And will the ability have a minimum charge time? Or will I be able to tap the ability and fire a instant fireball?
I personally think that having cast times instead of "charge up" is better for most spells, but I also think that what you are saying sounds pretty interesting and would add some complexity and variety to the combat.
@oophus I don't really understand how it would work physically. If I press the button would I "charge" the ability during the time I hold the button, and after I release it then the animation would happen? Or maybe I missed something xD
I personally think that having cast times instead of "charge up" is better for most spells, but I also think that what you are saying sounds pretty interesting and would add some complexity and variety to the combat.
I will try to explain.
Old System:
They have 1 animation for 1 ability. That means we have to come to a complete stop before that ability is able to be pressed, so it starts the animation, and while the animation lasts, we see a "casting-bar" ticking downwards until the animation is finished and the ability is cast. We can't move while the animation is doing its thing.
New System:
Upper body and lower body is separated in terms of how they import the animation, where they are combined again with the use of the game engine with blending/layer modes, plus each animation is separated into logical steps. For a Fireball animation that would be 3 steps.
You run and you want to fire off a Fireball. You can press it while running, and that creates the trigger to start the "upper body part 1" animation. Your hands/staff/wand summon a fireball that grows bigger and bigger.
At the same time, the lower part of the body starts its "slow down animation", and the legs starts to slow down. When you go to a complete stop, you trigger the bigger "loop" animation which would be "upperbody part 2" and "lowerbody part 2" Fireball animation.
When you release the button you send the Fireball off towards its target.
But remember that since the system can "blend" between targets/animations, you can release the button whenever you want to send it off.
The only requirement would be that it must be after X frames in the initial "upper body part 1 fireball" animation (so that VFX actually have time to make a visible Fireball to be cast).
You can also always cancel the animation and return to a "neutral state".
With this the game can be more dynamic. It can take 0,5 seconds to come to a complete stop, or it can take 2 seconds.
The middle "loop" animation can last for 1 second, or it can last for 3 seconds +/- whatever they want through testing.
Its way easy for the devs to adjust dynamically, and thus it can be linked to skills for us to skill up within. Do we want a faster "build up", then lower the "slow down" animations time for example.
We can introduce a second phase of the animation and blend it in if we want. Perfect for alterations towards Second Achetype choices later for when the devs needs to start implementing them.
We also remove the need for any cast-bar. The effect would be visible instead, as the character slows down into its "max" charge pose, or animation-loop, with added VFX to give the anticipation of a max charged fireball. The character could even start to SCREAM! at the end if it, and if you don't cancel the spell or let it go, it backfires on you. Hehe, would be fun to try and balance MAX damage with a 0,3 second time window for example where it can actually crit as well. But hold it for too long, and it backfires. ^^
Lots of options to choose from. And I think this is the beutfy of this way of introducing animations. Layer/blending modes. As its way easier to test for the devs in short amount of time. Maybe the crit thing doesnt work? No problem, all it took to test it was a "scream sound" and some numbers in the skills ability.
Having a "charge" up would be cool but then the animation of the release of the fire ball should happen instantly when I let go of the button, otherwise it will feel even more "clunky". And will the ability have a minimum charge time? Or will I be able to tap the ability and fire a instant fireball?
Good point! What if the system within TAB targeting chooses its target when you release the button? And at "action combat" style we make the "release" animation really quick? Like 5-6 frames? For bow&arrow they are currently using like 2-3 frames only, and I think it looks good there.
If you choose to let go early in the animation cycle, you can. But the damage should be lower than if you let it "wind up" completely. Maybe the best damage is in a sweet spot for some abilities? Hold it down 2 seconds to 2,5 seconds for max damage with ability to crit. Hold it down <2 seconds, or >2,5 seconds and the damage goes down for example. Thus you have to learn its "flow" to time it correctly. Could be a fun mechanic to try maybe.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Holding a button to increase the damage of an ability at the cost of movement isn't something often seen in an mmorpg. In fact, I can't think of a single game that has a mechanic like that. The closest I can think of is ESO where you do a short button press for the weapon light attack and a long press for the heavy attack, but that doesn't apply to abilities.
Not sure how I'd feel about a mechanic like that for every spell. At the very least it would be quite a learning curve to get the timing down so use the right "level" of spell that you are aiming for.
That's exactly how the Berserker class in TERA Online works. You hold down a button to "charge" up an attack and in the process you can barely move. The amount of time you hold down the button determines the strength of the blow.
It really, really, REALLY sucks. Nothing is worse than squatting there for a few seconds watching your bar build up while the enemy moves out of range. And it is boring. So, so boring. And keep in mind TERA is an "action" MMORPG so normally you're running around, positioning, lining up your attacks. The Berserker feels like a turtle with a giant hammer that you clumsily slam on the ground.
The mechanics do exist in MMOs but they are a mistake when implemented.
I feel like this mechanic to casting spell sounds very interesting and would be a nice addition to the gameplay. I don't think every spell should be like this but some would be awesome. With this system you could start moving out if a damage aoe ability while charging up your, for example, fireball. It can lead to some interesting timings on raid bosses and similar.
Not only do you have to take damage into account, but also how to handle the Mana cost if the ability. Maybe fireball should have a static Mana cost, marking the full cast time the most Mana effective, Or a scaling Mana cost like the damage.
I also think that the base ability should be static, but when you use a specific secondary archetype or level up your fireball ability it would unlock this new mechanic that you are talking about.
Holding a button to increase the damage of an ability at the cost of movement isn't something often seen in an mmorpg. In fact, I can't think of a single game that has a mechanic like that. The closest I can think of is ESO where you do a short button press for the weapon light attack and a long press for the heavy attack, but that doesn't apply to abilities.
Not sure how I'd feel about a mechanic like that for every spell. At the very least it would be quite a learning curve to get the timing down so use the right "level" of spell that you are aiming for.
That's exactly how the Berserker class in TERA Online works. You hold down a button to "charge" up an attack and in the process you can barely move. The amount of time you hold down the button determines the strength of the blow.
It really, really, REALLY sucks. Nothing is worse than squatting there for a few seconds watching your bar build up while the enemy moves out of range. And it is boring. So, so boring. And keep in mind TERA is an "action" MMORPG so normally you're running around, positioning, lining up your attacks. The Berserker feels like a turtle with a giant hammer that you clumsily slam on the ground.
The mechanics do exist in MMOs but they are a mistake when implemented.
It sounds like the implementation and timing of things is wrong here, not the implementation and the use of this type of animation blending.
If you think back, what is the main problem? Is the charge up too long? The movement speed too slow? What would happen if you got to adjust it? How would it feel if the movement speed was increased? The time to charge it up adjusted to last shorter. For melee I agree that it shouldn't be a long time. One click is enough for "light-attack", and holding it down for maybe half a second is enough for a "heavy-attack".
The beauty of this is its easy for the devs once the animation is in place to adjust them. The animation can be stretched, or squashed while tweaking it. And the different between current state with old system, and new system is really just up to the devs. Have a 12 frame "speeddown" animation and 78 frame "loop" animation for max damage, and you would have had the same feel with the same timing. But with it seperated, its easier to adjust different parts of it. Either through balance, or through skills within the game while you level up for you to adjust each skill for example.
Not only do you have to take damage into account, but also how to handle the Mana cost if the ability. Maybe fireball should have a static Mana cost, marking the full cast time the most Mana effective, Or a scaling Mana cost like the damage.
I also think that the base ability should be static, but when you use a specific secondary archetype or level up your fireball ability it would unlock this new mechanic that you are talking about.
1. Good suggestion. Maybe isntead of balancing it through damage number, they balance it through mana costs? Quick casts costs way more mana than longer lasting charges for a burst of energy, but you better finish whatever off, or you're out of mana.
2. I think its important that the first introduction of combat feels good. Right now I would at least remove current implementation of Fireball, for something that feels better.
I'm seeing a couple people take direct offense to op's comments/input. Some are very thinly veiled aggression and others are just "You're lying about your career!".
New MMO's NEED constructive criticism and input. Steven specifically called for the community to speak up on what we think needs to change or how the community feels about stuff. OP even specified in the first post that he's a fan and wants to help make the game better.
Please don't be offended when someone suggests how something can be improved. It's not an attack on the game, or the developers, or the community. It's just people lending their 2 cents just like Steven requested.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm seeing a couple people take direct offense to op's comments/input. Some are very thinly veiled aggression and others are just "You're lying about your career!".
New MMO's NEED constructive criticism and input. Steven specifically called for the community to speak up on what we think needs to change or how the community feels about stuff. OP even specified in the first post that he's a fan and wants to help make the game better.
Please don't be offended when someone suggests how something can be improved. It's not an attack on the game, or the developers, or the community. It's just people lending their 2 cents just like Steven requested.
Yeah I don't think anyone should be attacked for expressing their opinion of these things, as long as others aren't attacked for reminding them that we (and especially Intrepid Studios) already know that the animations need a lot of work. That disclaimer is given out every time they present this kind of footage.
Now, if someone hyperbolically declares that the game is in trouble because of this, that does need to be corrected. But the OP in this thread is not saying that. Others have declared this game will fail because of unfinished pre-alpha animation, and maybe the fact that such a thing has come up too often has made people defensive about this. But I think @oophus is all right and has valid opinions, whether we specifically agree with all of them or not.
Holding a button to increase the damage of an ability at the cost of movement isn't something often seen in an mmorpg. In fact, I can't think of a single game that has a mechanic like that. The closest I can think of is ESO where you do a short button press for the weapon light attack and a long press for the heavy attack, but that doesn't apply to abilities.
Not sure how I'd feel about a mechanic like that for every spell. At the very least it would be quite a learning curve to get the timing down so use the right "level" of spell that you are aiming for.
That's exactly how the Berserker class in TERA Online works. You hold down a button to "charge" up an attack and in the process you can barely move. The amount of time you hold down the button determines the strength of the blow.
It really, really, REALLY sucks. Nothing is worse than squatting there for a few seconds watching your bar build up while the enemy moves out of range. And it is boring. So, so boring. And keep in mind TERA is an "action" MMORPG so normally you're running around, positioning, lining up your attacks. The Berserker feels like a turtle with a giant hammer that you clumsily slam on the ground.
The mechanics do exist in MMOs but they are a mistake when implemented.
Thanks for the reminder. I was going to say I definitely have seen mechanics like this used before and I couldn't remember where. Definitely TERA. I also seem to remember other classes had a couple skills like this as well. I know my Priest had a skill that would return mana to myself and the group and it had 2-3 charge levels. Not something you really want on all of your skills. Just practically speaking, it's not intuitive or fun to play with.
Thanks for the reminder. I was going to say I definitely have seen mechanics like this used before and I couldn't remember where. Definitely TERA. I also seem to remember other classes had a couple skills like this as well. I know my Priest had a skill that would return mana to myself and the group and it had 2-3 charge levels. Not something you really want on all of your skills. Just practically speaking, it's not intuitive or fun to play with.
The benefit of standardizing how systems are implemented is its tweakable in easier ways. The game already have implemented the system I'm talking about but not in all scenarios. Melee combat for example is so quick that they only do link animations as a chain. The problem with this however is that its fast to implement, but a pain to tweak if changes are made later. We have still not seen classes with archetype 2 linked to it, with abilities that are tweaked on top of what we see now. And as far as I can see, most of the tweaks either alter it completely, or are just adding stats to them.
If they standardize, its way easier to balance the game with it, and it opens up so many more possibilities for further improvement and additions to the systems after X years when the game gets updated again.
Take melee combat as an example:
With current implementation we are always stuck with animations going fully through 100%.
If they divide it in logical cuts, or implement a simplified hit-detection to cut it procedurally, it can suddenly be altered to it being blocked for example, or the end of the animation can procedurally be altered if crits are landed etc to further expand in two important topics in animation - anticipation and follow-through/overlapping action. So if they already today think about the full potential of the game going 10 years ahead of time, then building systems to be both open for alterations, changes and that introduce possible depth to the game is just a logical thing to do, instead of doing the short-cuts.
it is really exhausting to read everything here and 80% of it is just a discussion about whether oophus is allowed to express criticism of something that is still in the works.
That is something of a misrepresentation.
The OP thinks the animations need work.
Literally everyone agrees, and many of us have pointed out that Intrepid know this, so there is no need to worry.
Not only is there no need to worry, there is also no need for someone with no MMO development experience to try to tell industry veterans how they should do their job.
If you actually read any of my posts in this thread, you would understand that my issue is not with someone having the opinion that animations need work. Literally everyone is of that opinion.
My issue is with someone that feels so self righteous that they think they can tell some of the most experienced MMO developers that have ever been how to develop an MMO.
Any sane person that values experience or expertise would take the same issue here that I have. They may not express it in the same way, but they would have that same issue.
Not only is there no need to worry, there is also no need for someone with no MMO development experience to try to tell industry veterans how they should do their job.
My issue is with someone that feels so self righteous that they think they can tell some of the most experienced MMO developers that have ever been how to develop an MMO.
Are you asking the community to not provide feedback to the developers?
That animation when mage is throwing a fireball from air is so wrong that I am considering collecting money from people on the internet to pay the devs to change it. Game otherwise looks promising but I just can't get past this silly animation that is just too much and unnecessary. Can anyone tell me if there is any talk about this from the devs? Thank you.
Hey there! As there have been a couple separate topics on these particular animations lately, I've merged together a few different ones here to keep feedback on this all in one place. As noted a bit above, all of these animations are very much a work in progress that will continue to be fine-tuned throughout testing!
Not only is there no need to worry, there is also no need for someone with no MMO development experience to try to tell industry veterans how they should do their job.
My issue is with someone that feels so self righteous that they think they can tell some of the most experienced MMO developers that have ever been how to develop an MMO.
Are you asking the community to not provide feedback to the developers?
Not at all.
Thing is, inexperienced suggestions are not feedback.
Feedback is saying "I like these things, and I dislike these things", the second you get in to saying what you think they should do to remedy the things you don't like, you are no longer offering feedback.
At that point you are being a self righteous prat that thinks they know better than a group of people with actual hundreds of years combined experience on the subject matter.
There is nothing wrong with having ideas to discuss with the community either. That's great, and I quite happily take part in that myself quite often. However, discussion between players is not directed at developers, and should not necessarily even be read by developers.
That animation when mage is throwing a fireball from air is so wrong that I am considering collecting money from people on the internet to pay the devs to change it.
I'll agree it's a little much with the giant wind up spin, but it doesn't bother me too much. I just don't think we need to publicly execute someone that criticizes the game.
Feedback is saying "I like these things, and I dislike these things", the second you get in to saying what you think they should do to remedy the things you don't like, you are no longer offering feedback.
At that point you are being a self righteous prat that thinks they know better than a group of people with actual hundreds of years combined experience on the subject matter.
I think that's just constructive criticism but I guess it's all up to interpretation.
I'd be less hesitant to sing the praises of the developers. Not that they're bad, they're not! The AoC team freakin' rules and I've never seen such a tight knit, transparent, and determined group of devs. But you're allowed to say "hey have you guys tried this?" or even "X is good but Y might be something special". The AoC team isn't perfect, no one is. It's okay to suggest things.
Also, on the topic of animations and combat timing, the timing is entirely dependent on the animations, they go hand in hand. In order to fine-tune the combat timing you need animations to see what timing works and what doesn't.
My point here is that the animator can do more for less in quicker time, of the Systems Designer standardize in ways animations are implemented.
You need an animation of 90 frames to see how a 3 second cast ability works in action, but that animation doesn't need to be perfect. It can be blocked out as long as it lasts 90 seconds. If the 90 frames is then separated into 3 parts of 30 frames to be utilized in the blending system in UE, it can then be further tested with smaller, faster tests. The animators can change out the first part and make 2-3 versions of it. Some 20 frames long, some 30 frames, some 40 frames while all of them have the same last frame to blend nicely into the previous produced animation. The speed of progress and testing would be faster. Less work for the animator initially while blocking, and a bit more work for the System Designer who have to make it fit in UE. But if the Systems Designer finds a standard for this, then all further progress should go faster. When its tested to perfection for timing, then do another animations round on it.
But you're allowed to say "hey have you guys tried this?" or even "X is good but Y might be something special". The AoC team isn't perfect, no one is. It's okay to suggest things.
I'm currently in what can only be described as my second career cook at home, they know what every restaurant should be doing. Yet these people have literally no idea at all what it is like when you are cooking for 120 people by yourself. Most of the suggestions made would require a completely new business plan, new staff, new equipment - stuff that just isn't feasible. Yet these people are adamant that is what is needed. It isn't that we didn't think of these things - as a chef I would spend several hundred hours working on the minutae of each menu, going through each dish to work out how things would flow when that one person was cooking for 120 people, or when 3 were cooking for 500. Everything on the menu needs to work not just as an individual dish, but it needs to be workable in terms of work flow.
Anyone that hasn't worked in that environment simply doesn't understand the things that need to all work together. They just see the finished dish, and think that is all the attention that is given.
I get the same in my current career - though now I have someone to go through the many thousands of pieces of "feedback" my team receives each week. This person has instructions to bring me anything that seems like it is worth my time - and in five years I've not had any make it to me.
Suggestions to developers are the same. You have no idea of what they are working on. You have no idea what they want or need out of their animation system, or out of anything else they are developing.
Nor do I.
We can say that we do or do not like a specific thing - that's great, potentially even useful. However, anyone that thinks they can come up with a an idea that happens to be workable in a project they are unfamiliar with, in a company they have never worked for, in an industry they have not been trained for, is outright deluding themselves.
Anyone that hasn't worked in that environment simply doesn't understand the things that need to all work together. They just see the finished dish, and think that is all the attention that is given.
Here is the irony in this. I work in an environment with 40 designers/developers spread out over the world in the company I work for, and I'm doing a lot of the same things that would be required for this game. The differences is scope and communications to and from a server, as we develop VR games ran locally.
And here you are as a cook and can judge how a game is made, and what the devs need or not, and speak on their behalf? Come on. Let them speak for themselves, and if you choose to involve yourself, try to speak in a manner that gives them value while reading this forum. This means addressing the topic! If you don't adress the topic, then let the thread die on it self! Don't assume stuff you have no insight on, especially what the developers think. Ask questions before you assume, and then make the conclusion once you are up to speed, if some of the technical stuff is hard to grasp.
Not only is there no need to worry, there is also no need for someone with no MMO development experience to try to tell industry veterans how they should do their job.
People who have played games long enough understand systems that don't work, especially MMO players. MMO's have risen and fallen more than any other genre in gaming, due to this, I think MMO players as a whole do genuinely know what works a lot better than others. This is also your first attempt at gatekeeping criticism, which is just weird.
My issue is with someone that feels so self righteous that they think they can tell some of the most experienced MMO developers that have ever been how to develop an MMO.
Any sane person that values experience or expertise would take the same issue here that I have. They may not express it in the same way, but they would have that same issue.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but it falls back to my first reply. Again, your experience doesn't make you immune to criticism. And, if I remember correctly, the games they worked on previously are not very impressive.
As a community, we can only give feedback on what we're given. So, when we see horrible animations, we speak up. I'd rather have people complain constantly about things that look bad early on than allow Intrepid to get comfortable with it. 'True' feedback will come after people are given a chance to actually get hands on with the game. But after the last posts, this thread is pretty much dead. We can all come to the agreement that the placeholder animations, even though they are placeholder, absolutely suck. Hopefully the final product is actually good.
Comments
I agree, and there are several things that can be adjusted for this. For example longer initial state on the first animation which is the "slowing down" animation to a full stop. A high level player may skill into that part getting faster to reach max potential of damage quicker, while a new player spends more time to get max damage output, but he also moves further while channeling.
I think that would be a good balance of power and level, and it would make combat more rewarding earlier on imo.
Example:
(In NA 30 frames = 1 seconds for an animator. In EU its 24/25 frames, so you guys can put it into perspective. I guess this game would use a 30 frame setup.)
The beauty of this, is that the skilling system could actually differentiate between "build up", "loop" and "finish" speed to change how players wants the skill to function, and all of this is controlled by the procedural animation system.
Having a "charge" up would be cool but then the animation of the release of the fire ball should happen instantly when I let go of the button, otherwise it will feel even more "clunky". And will the ability have a minimum charge time? Or will I be able to tap the ability and fire a instant fireball?
I personally think that having cast times instead of "charge up" is better for most spells, but I also think that what you are saying sounds pretty interesting and would add some complexity and variety to the combat.
I will try to explain.
Old System:
They have 1 animation for 1 ability. That means we have to come to a complete stop before that ability is able to be pressed, so it starts the animation, and while the animation lasts, we see a "casting-bar" ticking downwards until the animation is finished and the ability is cast. We can't move while the animation is doing its thing.
New System:
Upper body and lower body is separated in terms of how they import the animation, where they are combined again with the use of the game engine with blending/layer modes, plus each animation is separated into logical steps. For a Fireball animation that would be 3 steps.
With this the game can be more dynamic. It can take 0,5 seconds to come to a complete stop, or it can take 2 seconds.
The middle "loop" animation can last for 1 second, or it can last for 3 seconds +/- whatever they want through testing.
Its way easy for the devs to adjust dynamically, and thus it can be linked to skills for us to skill up within. Do we want a faster "build up", then lower the "slow down" animations time for example.
We can introduce a second phase of the animation and blend it in if we want. Perfect for alterations towards Second Achetype choices later for when the devs needs to start implementing them.
We also remove the need for any cast-bar. The effect would be visible instead, as the character slows down into its "max" charge pose, or animation-loop, with added VFX to give the anticipation of a max charged fireball. The character could even start to SCREAM! at the end if it, and if you don't cancel the spell or let it go, it backfires on you. Hehe, would be fun to try and balance MAX damage with a 0,3 second time window for example where it can actually crit as well. But hold it for too long, and it backfires. ^^
Lots of options to choose from. And I think this is the beutfy of this way of introducing animations. Layer/blending modes. As its way easier to test for the devs in short amount of time. Maybe the crit thing doesnt work? No problem, all it took to test it was a "scream sound" and some numbers in the skills ability.
Good point! What if the system within TAB targeting chooses its target when you release the button? And at "action combat" style we make the "release" animation really quick? Like 5-6 frames? For bow&arrow they are currently using like 2-3 frames only, and I think it looks good there.
If you choose to let go early in the animation cycle, you can. But the damage should be lower than if you let it "wind up" completely. Maybe the best damage is in a sweet spot for some abilities? Hold it down 2 seconds to 2,5 seconds for max damage with ability to crit. Hold it down <2 seconds, or >2,5 seconds and the damage goes down for example. Thus you have to learn its "flow" to time it correctly. Could be a fun mechanic to try maybe.
It really, really, REALLY sucks. Nothing is worse than squatting there for a few seconds watching your bar build up while the enemy moves out of range. And it is boring. So, so boring. And keep in mind TERA is an "action" MMORPG so normally you're running around, positioning, lining up your attacks. The Berserker feels like a turtle with a giant hammer that you clumsily slam on the ground.
The mechanics do exist in MMOs but they are a mistake when implemented.
Not only do you have to take damage into account, but also how to handle the Mana cost if the ability. Maybe fireball should have a static Mana cost, marking the full cast time the most Mana effective, Or a scaling Mana cost like the damage.
I also think that the base ability should be static, but when you use a specific secondary archetype or level up your fireball ability it would unlock this new mechanic that you are talking about.
If you think back, what is the main problem? Is the charge up too long? The movement speed too slow? What would happen if you got to adjust it? How would it feel if the movement speed was increased? The time to charge it up adjusted to last shorter. For melee I agree that it shouldn't be a long time. One click is enough for "light-attack", and holding it down for maybe half a second is enough for a "heavy-attack".
The beauty of this is its easy for the devs once the animation is in place to adjust them. The animation can be stretched, or squashed while tweaking it. And the different between current state with old system, and new system is really just up to the devs. Have a 12 frame "speeddown" animation and 78 frame "loop" animation for max damage, and you would have had the same feel with the same timing. But with it seperated, its easier to adjust different parts of it. Either through balance, or through skills within the game while you level up for you to adjust each skill for example.
1. Good suggestion. Maybe isntead of balancing it through damage number, they balance it through mana costs? Quick casts costs way more mana than longer lasting charges for a burst of energy, but you better finish whatever off, or you're out of mana.
2. I think its important that the first introduction of combat feels good. Right now I would at least remove current implementation of Fireball, for something that feels better.
New MMO's NEED constructive criticism and input. Steven specifically called for the community to speak up on what we think needs to change or how the community feels about stuff. OP even specified in the first post that he's a fan and wants to help make the game better.
Please don't be offended when someone suggests how something can be improved. It's not an attack on the game, or the developers, or the community. It's just people lending their 2 cents just like Steven requested.
Now, if someone hyperbolically declares that the game is in trouble because of this, that does need to be corrected. But the OP in this thread is not saying that. Others have declared this game will fail because of unfinished pre-alpha animation, and maybe the fact that such a thing has come up too often has made people defensive about this. But I think @oophus is all right and has valid opinions, whether we specifically agree with all of them or not.
Thanks for the reminder. I was going to say I definitely have seen mechanics like this used before and I couldn't remember where. Definitely TERA. I also seem to remember other classes had a couple skills like this as well. I know my Priest had a skill that would return mana to myself and the group and it had 2-3 charge levels. Not something you really want on all of your skills. Just practically speaking, it's not intuitive or fun to play with.
If they standardize, its way easier to balance the game with it, and it opens up so many more possibilities for further improvement and additions to the systems after X years when the game gets updated again.
Take melee combat as an example:
With current implementation we are always stuck with animations going fully through 100%.
If they divide it in logical cuts, or implement a simplified hit-detection to cut it procedurally, it can suddenly be altered to it being blocked for example, or the end of the animation can procedurally be altered if crits are landed etc to further expand in two important topics in animation - anticipation and follow-through/overlapping action. So if they already today think about the full potential of the game going 10 years ahead of time, then building systems to be both open for alterations, changes and that introduce possible depth to the game is just a logical thing to do, instead of doing the short-cuts.
The OP thinks the animations need work.
Literally everyone agrees, and many of us have pointed out that Intrepid know this, so there is no need to worry.
Not only is there no need to worry, there is also no need for someone with no MMO development experience to try to tell industry veterans how they should do their job.
If you actually read any of my posts in this thread, you would understand that my issue is not with someone having the opinion that animations need work. Literally everyone is of that opinion.
My issue is with someone that feels so self righteous that they think they can tell some of the most experienced MMO developers that have ever been how to develop an MMO.
Any sane person that values experience or expertise would take the same issue here that I have. They may not express it in the same way, but they would have that same issue.
Are you asking the community to not provide feedback to the developers?
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/46590/exagerate-animations-mi-alone-on-this-one/p1
Not at all.
Thing is, inexperienced suggestions are not feedback.
Feedback is saying "I like these things, and I dislike these things", the second you get in to saying what you think they should do to remedy the things you don't like, you are no longer offering feedback.
At that point you are being a self righteous prat that thinks they know better than a group of people with actual hundreds of years combined experience on the subject matter.
There is nothing wrong with having ideas to discuss with the community either. That's great, and I quite happily take part in that myself quite often. However, discussion between players is not directed at developers, and should not necessarily even be read by developers.
I'll agree it's a little much with the giant wind up spin, but it doesn't bother me too much. I just don't think we need to publicly execute someone that criticizes the game.
I think that's just constructive criticism but I guess it's all up to interpretation.
I'd be less hesitant to sing the praises of the developers. Not that they're bad, they're not! The AoC team freakin' rules and I've never seen such a tight knit, transparent, and determined group of devs. But you're allowed to say "hey have you guys tried this?" or even "X is good but Y might be something special". The AoC team isn't perfect, no one is. It's okay to suggest things.
My point here is that the animator can do more for less in quicker time, of the Systems Designer standardize in ways animations are implemented.
You need an animation of 90 frames to see how a 3 second cast ability works in action, but that animation doesn't need to be perfect. It can be blocked out as long as it lasts 90 seconds. If the 90 frames is then separated into 3 parts of 30 frames to be utilized in the blending system in UE, it can then be further tested with smaller, faster tests. The animators can change out the first part and make 2-3 versions of it. Some 20 frames long, some 30 frames, some 40 frames while all of them have the same last frame to blend nicely into the previous produced animation. The speed of progress and testing would be faster. Less work for the animator initially while blocking, and a bit more work for the System Designer who have to make it fit in UE. But if the Systems Designer finds a standard for this, then all further progress should go faster. When its tested to perfection for timing, then do another animations round on it.
I'm currently in what can only be described as my second career cook at home, they know what every restaurant should be doing. Yet these people have literally no idea at all what it is like when you are cooking for 120 people by yourself. Most of the suggestions made would require a completely new business plan, new staff, new equipment - stuff that just isn't feasible. Yet these people are adamant that is what is needed. It isn't that we didn't think of these things - as a chef I would spend several hundred hours working on the minutae of each menu, going through each dish to work out how things would flow when that one person was cooking for 120 people, or when 3 were cooking for 500. Everything on the menu needs to work not just as an individual dish, but it needs to be workable in terms of work flow.
Anyone that hasn't worked in that environment simply doesn't understand the things that need to all work together. They just see the finished dish, and think that is all the attention that is given.
I get the same in my current career - though now I have someone to go through the many thousands of pieces of "feedback" my team receives each week. This person has instructions to bring me anything that seems like it is worth my time - and in five years I've not had any make it to me.
Suggestions to developers are the same. You have no idea of what they are working on. You have no idea what they want or need out of their animation system, or out of anything else they are developing.
Nor do I.
We can say that we do or do not like a specific thing - that's great, potentially even useful. However, anyone that thinks they can come up with a an idea that happens to be workable in a project they are unfamiliar with, in a company they have never worked for, in an industry they have not been trained for, is outright deluding themselves.
Here is the irony in this. I work in an environment with 40 designers/developers spread out over the world in the company I work for, and I'm doing a lot of the same things that would be required for this game. The differences is scope and communications to and from a server, as we develop VR games ran locally.
And here you are as a cook and can judge how a game is made, and what the devs need or not, and speak on their behalf? Come on. Let them speak for themselves, and if you choose to involve yourself, try to speak in a manner that gives them value while reading this forum. This means addressing the topic! If you don't adress the topic, then let the thread die on it self! Don't assume stuff you have no insight on, especially what the developers think. Ask questions before you assume, and then make the conclusion once you are up to speed, if some of the technical stuff is hard to grasp.
People who have played games long enough understand systems that don't work, especially MMO players. MMO's have risen and fallen more than any other genre in gaming, due to this, I think MMO players as a whole do genuinely know what works a lot better than others. This is also your first attempt at gatekeeping criticism, which is just weird.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but it falls back to my first reply. Again, your experience doesn't make you immune to criticism. And, if I remember correctly, the games they worked on previously are not very impressive.
As a community, we can only give feedback on what we're given. So, when we see horrible animations, we speak up. I'd rather have people complain constantly about things that look bad early on than allow Intrepid to get comfortable with it. 'True' feedback will come after people are given a chance to actually get hands on with the game. But after the last posts, this thread is pretty much dead. We can all come to the agreement that the placeholder animations, even though they are placeholder, absolutely suck. Hopefully the final product is actually good.