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Player to Player Trading | Yea or Nay

Eques3nEques3n Member
edited September 2020 in General Discussion
**UPDATED**

Ok, it seems my point didn't make it across properly, or I am wording this poorly. Let me try and restate this. If a player wants to sell what they obtained, via local markets or some type of market place, that is fine, that is the economy. What I was trying to find out is if people are ok with someone just trading any and all gear/money/items to another player at any time for any reason they want to. It just seems it would be tough to verify RMT with this kind of set up.

I guess the best way to give an example would be like this. Let's say a popular streamer or even a new guild member of a large guild decides they wants to start playing Ashes of Creation. They have a few thousand followers or a few hundred fellow guild members playing also or they join during this "free trial" period. They create their character and immediately obtain best in slot gear, and all the materials they needs to either max out, or get a high level in most of the life skills because everyone just drops it on the ground or trades it with them as needed so they can level up. End game content is available as soon as they level up their character which could be power leveled quickly with group content. Also, imagine these guilds declare war on another guild for a grind or resource spot. People are ok with this?

The original post was to cover Gear and silver, not all types of trading. But again, I am probably missing something.

I searched for a bit in the forums and couldn't find a post discussing this, so if it is old news and I am beating a dead horse, sorry. I just wanted to know how other players feel about Player to Player Trading.

From what I found, this is the game's stance on player to player trading.
There will be player to player trading in Ashes of Creation.[3]

Q: Will Ashes of Creation have player-to-player trading? Will there be anything stopping me from gifting a friend that's fresh to the game a bunch of in-game money to help them get on their feet quickly?
A: There won't be anything to stop you from doing that. – Steven Sharif

Source: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_to_player_trading

My Personal Stance:

1. It should not be allowed
2. Gear should be account, character or bound on equip once it is obtained either by drop, crafting, or purchase from crafter.
3. Game Currency should not be traded between players outside of their own account.
4. If gear/currency are going to be traded, there needs to be a set minimum character level for both players to do so unless it is your own account.

My Rationale:

1. Real Money Trading will become a huge issue with the game and the bane of World Chat :)
2. PVP at lower levels will be discouraging for players with new accounts as they will be fighting current players with top level gear. (Twinks)
3. Encourages players to quickly bypass the beginning game content and areas.
4. Catch Up mechanics will arrive over time. They do in every game.

These are problems I have seen coming. I played World of Warcraft from Burning Crusade until the middle of Battle for Azeroth. During that time I started playing Black Desert Online in Korea and when it was released in NA I switched over and participated in the Alpha and Beta testing and currently still play Black Desert Online daily. The games are night and day different, but both are enjoyable. I mention this because I have seen both sides of the spectrum and it seems Black Desert Online did it right with the player to player trading.
Vivere vici cogita mori
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Comments

  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Unfortunately I'm not sure AoC would work without Player to Player trading.
    You're basically saying "remove the economy"

    Also Steven has already said he wants almost all gear to be tradeable, with few exceptions.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • maouw wrote: »
    Unfortunately I'm not sure AoC would work without Player to Player trading.
    You're basically saying "remove the economy"

    Also Steven has already said he wants almost all gear to be tradeable, with few exceptions.

    Yeah completely agreed. This wouldn't be healthy for the game.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited September 2020
    What? Where do you people come up with these ideas?

    Your restrictions completely go against the game’s core design. Being able to trade and interact with other players in all these ways is what the game is built upon.

    You must have stumbled across this game 5 minutes ago because you clearly don’t understand what AoC is trying to build. This is a PvX sandbox (sandpark) MMORPG... your restrictions make no sense.

    I’m sorry man. It’s a big ‘Nay’.

    Edit: word
  • I don't think that you will see traditional twinking in this game, the reason is that the world will not be divided only to leveling areas and endgame areas. This alone kinda makes twinking useless, because max lvl players are going to be able to interact in the world with lower level ones on regular basis. Not to mention that PvP is discouraged automatically by the corruption system.

    Also catch up mechanics are introduced in games that they dispose of old content like lvling zones etc - which is on contrast to the systems that are planned

    Also I heavily encourage you to read on wiki about Nodes, because after you read that you will realise that a portion of your post is just invalid to the game that ashes is shaping up to be.

    Also this quote from Steven might shed some light
    We don’t have a strictly level 25 zone. Instead, that zone might have some level 10 creatures near the road, some level 20 creatures deep in the forest, and some level 30 creatures up the mountain. These ratios will change based on the Nodes that inform them, becoming generally more dangerous as the Node grows. All this civilization attracts the attention of Things-That-Should-Not-Be. This does not mean that wilderness areas are safe, by any means. Some may be safe-er, but all will have dangers that even the most experienced traveler needs to watch out for.[35] – Steven Sharif
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Eques3n
    I understand RMT ruins a game, but the Intrepid team is aware of this.
    Let's see how they plan to deal with it.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • ShazeShaze Member, Phoenix Initiative, Explorer, Alpha One
    Hi there!
    I understand your concerns. However you are suggesting extreme solutions to an issue which can never be contained in its entirety. Player trading is a key aspect of the game, from caravans, to bribes, to guild-politics, purchasing siege claims, the tax system, gear progression and so much more.

    Fact is, no matter what restrictions you place, RMT will always exist in some way or form. Ranging from AH deals to direct account selling or offering services in game for $$$. Your solution would barely hinder the RMT market but would completely destroy the economical and player interaction aspect of AoC, especially since the kickstarter stretch goal included a working in-game stock market etc.
  • This game is supposed to emulate the way real world economies work, at least on some level and bartering is an integral a part of that. If I'm not allowed to trade my cord of wood for your pig then that flies in the face of one of the game's base concepts of a player driven economy.

    I know you are worried about something slightly different BUT you can't prohibit possibly 'abusive' trading without completely ruining an entire aspect of the game in the process.
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  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
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  • Cant believe theres even a question like that...big big nay for me. Once i realised that you vant trade with people in bdo that was it for me...
  • Eques3n wrote: »
    There will be player to player trading in Ashes of Creation.

    Q: Will Ashes of Creation have player-to-player trading? Will there be anything stopping me from gifting a friend that's fresh to the game a bunch of in-game money to help them get on their feet quickly?
    A: There won't be anything to stop you from doing that. – Steven Sharif


    My Personal Stance:

    1. It should not be allowed

    HOL UP

  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Marcet wrote: »
    Eques3n wrote: »
    There will be player to player trading in Ashes of Creation.

    Q: Will Ashes of Creation have player-to-player trading? Will there be anything stopping me from gifting a friend that's fresh to the game a bunch of in-game money to help them get on their feet quickly?
    A: There won't be anything to stop you from doing that. – Steven Sharif


    My Personal Stance:

    1. It should not be allowed

    HOL UP

    Hahahaha I know right? I’m so confused where these people come from or what makes them think that they can just disregard the entire project’s core and vision and plant their ideas with such authority.

    They don’t even try to understand the game... they just have an isolated preconceived idea and issue and assume that it can just be plopped down with total disregard of the rest of the game and its design goals.
  • SoulsOnFireSoulsOnFire Member, Settler, Kickstarter
    I completely.... disagree. As others have said, that's not the way they want this game to be afaik. You might want to go look for something else because it's an extreme opposite.
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  • I will trade pies and ale
  • cyanideinsanitycyanideinsanity Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter
    edited September 2020
    Eques3n wrote: »
    1. Real Money Trading will become a huge issue with the game and the bane of World Chat :)
    3. Encourages players to quickly bypass the beginning game content and areas.

    And so too does this idea, by encouraging services in which players pay others, outside of the game, to do content for them. Old school Runescape has this both in the ironman mode, which is basically what you described, and for more challenging content such as the fight cave and its successor the inferno (both solo content). In fact jagex goes about banning players for leeching infernal capes, one of the game's best in slot back items.

    Also don't forget about bots.
  • The idea of removing player to player trading from an MMO is a bad one, but especially so for this game.
    From what we've been told, there will be no global auction house, only local markets and eventually there may be city-spanning auction houses. On top of that, this is going to be a game where most if not all gear is intended to be recycled back into the economy eventually, either sold to be reused by other players or broken down and reclaimed to create new gear.
  • RyufuRyufu Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I am more concerned about unflagged person trading a corrupted person. This would allow the unflagged to hold all the loot more safely. I would like to see Corruption disable trading.
  • If this is a big concern, don't sign up on a streamer server. If you still find yourself with a big streamer on your server, try and find a way to unite against them idk. I think the devs also said something about monitoring "out of the norm" transactions/amount of transactions, so that might be a solution as well. They seem pretty hands on about moderating so I'm not concerned.
  • Arcadia wrote: »
    If this is a big concern, don't sign up on a streamer server. If you still find yourself with a big streamer on your server, try and find a way to unite against them idk. I think the devs also said something about monitoring "out of the norm" transactions/amount of transactions, so that might be a solution as well. They seem pretty hands on about moderating so I'm not concerned.

    They will monitor to find gold sellers, but nothing will stop big streamers getting free gold n shit
  • Eques3nEques3n Member
    edited September 2020
    Tragnar wrote: »
    Also catch up mechanics are introduced in games that they dispose of old content like lvling zones etc - which is on contrast to the systems that are planned

    Actually that has not been my experience. My experience has been new players cannot compete against players who have been playing the game for any length of time. Most specifically if gear is the major determination on how fast a player levels and how well they perform on the PVP/PVE environment. 1 year after launch, new players will be screaming they can't compete for castles, nodes, etc. because they cannot catch up to the players who have been continually playing. New guilds stop forming except for lifeskill guilds because if they work as hard as the starting guilds, it will still take them a year to compete on an equal level, and that's only if the other guild stops progressing.
    Vivere vici cogita mori
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  • Isn't pretty much the crafting/selling/buying based on people able to trade with other players. Of what i have understood, you can't max out a crafting, gather and processing. So we have to interact with others. Maybe you should look into how the game is ment to work. You expect them to change the entire crafting system!
    Plus of what i know, there won't be a "free trial"
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Player to Player trading is... pretty much essential isnt it? xD

    Gear being not character bound is really awesome tbh. It keeps the older equipments relevant. YOu dont have to sell your old armor fpr cheap to npc merchants/disentchant it anymore. You can just go to the city and find some low leveled and geared noob to buy it from you for a good price.

    Additionally:
    You could make leveling gear yourself, by collecting really good armor sets for all the differrent level jumps.
    1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-50
    Just get a craftsman to make you epic gearsets for all of them and keep on switching them between characters.
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  • Fuppo HeadhunterFuppo Headhunter Moderator, Member, Alpha One
    Trades everyone in the thread some cookies
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  • UmataUmata Member
    edited September 2020
    Yea. Why is this even a question?
    Join our Pirate Crew : the Sharktooth Pirates! Let's have an adventure on the seas of Verra and kill our enemies!

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  • The fact that you can trade almost anything is one of the best parts about this game...who cares if people sell items for real money, and who cares if streamers get given shit. It's their loss of accomplishment. As long as you can't buy items directly from intrepid, then its whatever. If people want to hustle on the game and make a living, then power to them.
  • MakiiiMakiii Member, Phoenix Initiative, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Most are seeing this "Unfairness" in player-to-player trading as a downfall. Truthfully, I'm tired of "fair" gameplay. Everything must be balanced, we can't possibly let very few people in the world have flying mounts, we can't possibly let one person decide the entire fate of a metropolitan class city. The massive imbalance is baked into the design of the game. This sandpark MMO was never built to be "fair" and that is what I am most excited for.
  • MoidMoid Member
    edited September 2020
    I think people should be able to do what they please. If they want to give something to someone else so be it. If they want to drop something on the ground for someone else to be able to pick up, so be that too. If they want to put something up on an auction house, then so be that three.

    I also understand that there are people out there in the world who would love to cheapen the game by making money off of gold and gear farming. So I understand why developers might make certain design decisions to limit trade.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    The idea of not allowing player to player trading in order to combat RMT seems off to me.

    If it doesn't exist, players will just use the other forms of trading that will obviously have to exist in Ashes. Since this will happen, those other forms of trading will need some form of oversight to them, and if you simply add that oversight to player to player trading then there shouldn't be an issue.

    All this would do is restrict players.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Don't try to stop RMT by punishing the players like this. BDO for example, was a much worse game for it.
    An active GM team to ban the goldseller spammers on sight, coupled with their tracking systems for RMT, has to be enough.
  • I'm in agreement that player to player trading is a must for the design of the game, and hopeful that the active GM team and a trade monitoring flagging system will be enough to keep RMT's at a minimum, but if it's not and RMT becomes a big issue, what would y'all think about a trade deficit limit. I think Runescape used to have something like that, but it's been so long I can't remember. Basically every item would have some sort of approximate gold value so every trade would generate a deficit. Ie. If I trade an estimated 400 gold worth of goods for 700 gold, that's a 300 gold deficit. I would only be able to accumulate XXX amount of deficit every day. It would be complicated to implement given differing regional values of goods in AoC, but maybe it would help, idk??? Any other games have experience with such a system and if so how well did it work? Regardless active GM's would be so much better than having to deal with a limitation system like that, but since I currently play classic WoW and see firsthand the destruction of the economy via RMT's, it's hard to remain hopeful that GM's will be a magic fix.
  • Ryufu wrote: »
    I am more concerned about unflagged person trading a corrupted person. This would allow the unflagged to hold all the loot more safely. I would like to see Corruption disable trading.

    That's a good point, I think if you trade with corruped person, you should get flagged immediately or maybe even gain just a little bit of corruption.
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