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Combatant Opt-In

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Comments

  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Sathrago wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    I’m not following the argument against the combatant flag. I see this flag as having two states:

    A. flag is on, and I’m always a combatant
    B. flag is off, normal rules apply

    What’s the downside?

    Why would anyone ever turn it off?

    Why does it matter if they don't turn it off ever? They still get corruption for killing unflagged people.
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    edited my previous post.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    edited my previous post.

    Do you not understand how the flagging system works? I'm really beginning to suspect you just don't. If people have an opt in flag on at all times they would still go corrupted against unflagged players.
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    edited my previous post.

    Do you not understand how the flagging system works? I'm really beginning to suspect you just don't. If people have an opt in flag on at all times they would still go corrupted against unflagged players.

    YEP! but why would anyone not be flagged? You can be attacked still if you are not flagged so just flag and not worry about them stunlocking you to death so you only take half the losses when you die.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    edited my previous post.

    Do you not understand how the flagging system works? I'm really beginning to suspect you just don't. If people have an opt in flag on at all times they would still go corrupted against unflagged players.

    YEP! but why would anyone not be flagged? You can be attacked still if you are not flagged so just flag and not worry about them stunlocking you to death so you only take half the losses when you die.

    This argument makes zero sense and I'm done trying to understand what you are trying to convey. There's no problem at all If everybody wants to flag up. PvP is encouraged and the only reason for the corruption system is to protect lowbies from being ganked for the most part.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Tyrantor wrote: »

    Noaani Would you care how to explain how this would change the game for you? What exactly do you think this changes in the flagging system other than people walk around purple instead of green?
    It isn't how this changes the game for me, it is how it changes the game.

    This change would make it so people think this is a game where roaming around in groups looking for PvP is encouraged by the game developers.

    This is not currently something they support, as they want PvP to always be meaningful. Roaming around in a mob actively looking for others to attack is not meaningful PvP.

    This change would alter the feel of the game more than instancing 50% of the games content would. It would mean the game needs to drop the notion of being PvX and label itself full PvP - as the difference between these two is that PvP in a PvX game is done for specific reasons, while PvP in a PvP game is just done for fun.

    If you want a game where you can roam around the open world PvP'ing for fun, Ashes is about as suited to you as it is to a player that wants fully instanced raid progression.
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Noaani wrote: »
    Tyrantor wrote: »

    Noaani Would you care how to explain how this would change the game for you? What exactly do you think this changes in the flagging system other than people walk around purple instead of green?
    It isn't how this changes the game for me, it is how it changes the game.

    This change would make it so people think this is a game where roaming around in groups looking for PvP is encouraged by the game developers.

    This is not currently something they support, as they want PvP to always be meaningful. Roaming around in a mob actively looking for others to attack is not meaningful PvP.

    This change would alter the feel of the game more than instancing 50% of the games content would. It would mean the game needs to drop the notion of being PvX and label itself full PvP - as the difference between these two is that PvP in a PvX game is done for specific reasons, while PvP in a PvP game is just done for fun.

    If you want a game where you can roam around the open world PvP'ing for fun, Ashes is about as suited to you as it is to a player that wants fully instanced raid progression.

    It's absolutely hilarious you put roaming groups looking for PvP fights on the same level as instancing half the game. You understand that's completely delusional right?
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    It isnt.
    This feature provides a "plane" of combatant players in the world which changes the dynamic of interactions

    But since you can't understand that, let's stick to fact that it isnt worth adding lines and lines of code, which need to be examined anytime something breaks in the game (look at ESO), just because you dont want to be purple without laying a hand on your targets.
    Just do that.
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    And I feel like you are missing my point that this would create a system where everyone flags as soon as they hear the benefits and rampant ganking of players will happen defeating the purpose of the original corruption system. The benefits of being a combatant vs the benefits of being non-combatant are just too skewed for the game to allow anyone to turn it on whenever they feel like it.

    The current system where you have to actually participate in pvp to become flagged for it makes much more sense to me. This is ALLLLL before we introduce the many other pvp types and going to war with guilds/alliances. There is no need to add in this option with so many options available already.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »

    This is not currently something they support, as they want PvP to always be meaningful. Roaming around in a mob actively looking for others to attack is not meaningful PvP.

    If you want a game where you can roam around the open world PvP'ing for fun, Ashes is about as suited to you as it is to a player that wants fully instanced raid progression.

    Meaningful PvP is Siege, Caravan and Node/guild wars. There is currently nothing stopping anyone from running around PvPing solo or in groups. Not all of that will be "meaningful" as there is nothing stopping me currently from RPK some noob leaving a city - this would make me go corrupt just the same as it would if I was toggled for combat when I did this.

    You guys are hilarious. We already flag for combat when we attack people - the only difference my suggestion makes is that we no longer have to attack someone to flag, it seems like a win-win scenario to me.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    And I feel like you are missing my point that this would create a system where everyone flags as soon as they hear the benefits and rampant ganking of players will happen defeating the purpose of the original corruption system. The benefits of being a combatant vs the benefits of being non-combatant are just too skewed for the game to allow anyone to turn it on whenever they feel like it.

    The current system where you have to actually participate in pvp to become flagged for it makes much more sense to me. This is ALLLLL before we introduce the many other pvp types and going to war with guilds/alliances. There is no need to add in this option with so many options available already.

    Lol I really truly am missing your point.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    I for one would love to see you unknowingly hitting a extremely low hp target and gain corruption.
    Free loot for me.

    Your feature protects you from this action, but still provides you with a chance for a fight to happen.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    You’d turn it off so you could be a non-combatant and deter others from attacking you unless they want the corruption. The more folks that leave their flag on, the more non-combatant state will matter.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Not to mention intentional exploitation of the feature to avoid the risks of dying to mobs, by activating the pvp status just before you die.
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    I for one would love to see you unknowingly hitting a extremely low hp target and gain corruption.
    Free loot for me.

    Your feature protects you from this action, but still provides you with a chance for a fight to happen.

    Please elaborate how you being flagged (Purple) 100% of the time prevents you from killing a very low HP green (Unflagged) target and gaining corruption. This is another case of not understanding how the corruption or flagging system works at all. Please go look at any old L2 PvP video to see how it works.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Bricktop wrote: »
    I for one would love to see you unknowingly hitting a extremely low hp target and gain corruption.
    Free loot for me.

    Your feature protects you from this action, but still provides you with a chance for a fight to happen.

    Please elaborate how you being flagged (Purple) 100% of the time prevents you from killing a very low HP green (Unflagged) target and gaining corruption. This is another case of not understanding how the corruption or flagging system works at all. Please go look at any old L2 PvP video to see how it works.

    Ill explain. Pay close attention.

    As the game currently is, our friend the OP here will be green. He wants some PvP action, but nobody in their right mind attack him.

    So he has to innitiate the fight by laying hands on a target and becoming purple. His target then MIGHT fight back.

    If the feature gets implemented, our friend and his 16 mates roam flagged, looking to be attacked, WITHOUT having to lay hands on a (potentially low HP) target.

    This reduces PK events to some extend.


    I have given you many examples of how things like that change the social dynamic. You keep discrediting them, but they add up.
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Not to mention intentional exploitation of the feature to avoid the risks of dying to mobs, by activating the pvp status just before you die.

    Can only toggle on or off in town. Crisis averted.

    Edit: I completely forgot to mention that dying to mobs has nothing to do with corruption or flagging. Experience debt is different and can be applied evenly still.
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    You’d turn it off so you could be a non-combatant and deter others from attacking you unless they want the corruption. The more folks that leave their flag on, the more non-combatant state will matter.

    It really is a simple concept I can't believe these other guys are so lost, it seems they are concerned that PvE death as "non combatant' would be reduced if the player was flagged as combatant. I can't confirm or deny how that works but it seems like it could be an easily exploitable system if group members could just leave group and attack each other then re-group before making risky pulls. Of course they could also just bring a +1 to attack their group every now and again to flag them.

    Let me ask this @George Black and @Sathrago if PvE death is not changed do you agree with the concept? (to spell this out - being flagged for combat = same death penalty as non-combatant).

    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    You’d turn it off so you could be a non-combatant and deter others from attacking you unless they want the corruption. The more folks that leave their flag on, the more non-combatant state will matter.

    It really is a simple concept I can't believe these other guys are so lost, it seems they are concerned that PvE death as "non combatant' would be reduced if the player was flagged as combatant. I can't confirm or deny how that works but it seems like it could be an easily exploitable system if group members could just leave group and attack each other then re-group before making risky pulls. Of course they could also just bring a +1 to attack their group every now and again to flag them.

    Let me ask this @George Black and @Sathrago if PvE death is not changed do you agree with the concept? (to spell this out - being flagged for combat = same death penalty as non-combatant).

    I don't think i'd care at that point. My initial point of it being a waste of time and distorting how the current system will function still stands. Go for it if they want to but im not going to riot if it comes into the game.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Bricktop wrote: »
    I for one would love to see you unknowingly hitting a extremely low hp target and gain corruption.
    Free loot for me.

    Your feature protects you from this action, but still provides you with a chance for a fight to happen.

    Please elaborate how you being flagged (Purple) 100% of the time prevents you from killing a very low HP green (Unflagged) target and gaining corruption. This is another case of not understanding how the corruption or flagging system works at all. Please go look at any old L2 PvP video to see how it works.

    Ill explain. Pay close attention.

    As the game currently is, our friend the OP here will be green. He wants some PvP action, but nobody in their right mind attack him.

    So he has to innitiate the fight by laying hands on a target and becoming purple. His target then MIGHT fight back.

    If the feature gets implemented, our friend and his 16 mates roam flagged, looking to be attacked, WITHOUT having to lay hands on a (potentially low HP) target.

    This reduces PK events to some extend.


    I have given you many examples of how things like that change the social dynamic. You keep discrediting them, but they add up.

    No they make zero sense is the problem I really am approaching this with an open mind. 16 people roaming around with flags on are looking for other flagged or larger groups to fight, not to harrass lone randoms 99% of the time.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Ah you are right about PvE death. Address the rest of my concerns next.
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Bricktop wrote: »
    I for one would love to see you unknowingly hitting a extremely low hp target and gain corruption.
    Free loot for me.

    Your feature protects you from this action, but still provides you with a chance for a fight to happen.

    Please elaborate how you being flagged (Purple) 100% of the time prevents you from killing a very low HP green (Unflagged) target and gaining corruption. This is another case of not understanding how the corruption or flagging system works at all. Please go look at any old L2 PvP video to see how it works.

    Ill explain. Pay close attention.

    As the game currently is, our friend the OP here will be green. He wants some PvP action, but nobody in their right mind attack him.

    So he has to innitiate the fight by laying hands on a target and becoming purple. His target then MIGHT fight back.

    If the feature gets implemented, our friend and his 16 mates roam flagged, looking to be attacked, WITHOUT having to lay hands on a (potentially low HP) target.

    This reduces PK events to some extend.


    I have given you many examples of how things like that change the social dynamic. You keep discrediting them, but they add up.

    I'm not following the concern here is it that i'm avoiding a fight by flagging as combatant? That sounds ass backwards to me. In this example you gave - I suppose yes I would no longer need to flag as combatant by attacking the random low level green, but doesn't this make the game better for everyone?

    If you think I'm concerned about that person fighting back why would I be if my intention is to go combatant, they fight back it does nothing but give me an immediate fight without corruption risk. Secondly if I"m in a group of 16 we would have very little risk of attacking a lone player so we can flag, which then makes the risk for the lone player much higher. Instead our group just flags and leaves the lone player alone? lol
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Ah you are right about PvE death. Address the rest of my concerns next.

    There's no problem with your 16 man scenario. As I said there is a 99% chance that a 16 man group roaming around is looking for group PvP, not to bully or harrass random players. All this does is tell everybody around "Hey im down to PvP, you can even attack me first". Some random lone person won't attack the 16 man group if they are smart and the 16 man group most likely wouldn't go red on them.

    And the argument "This isn't a roaming PVP game" is the silliest thing I've ever seen. People roam in every single game that has any kinds of open world or large scale PvP like RvR. People will be roaming anyway. This does nothing to change anything about roaming. PvPers like to PvP and we are gonna roam around looking for fights one way or the other.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    My concern is that if you dont have to lay hands (which right now is needed for you to be combatant[purple]) on a target, that reduces the risk that you might PK if that target happens to be low HP.
    I want you, and the rest of the population, to risk getting accidental corruption, so that I can loot you.

    Your feature eliminates that risk.
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    My concern is that if you dont have to lay hands (which right now is needed for you to be combatant[purple]) on a target, that reduces the risk that you might PK if that target happens to be low HP.
    I want you, and the rest of the population, to risk getting accidental corruption, so that I can loot you.

    Your feature eliminates that risk.

    Corruption isn't designed for "accidental" PK. Furthermore by your own words "extremely small" portion of the server population would willingly choose to flag as combatants so how many people are you really missing out on killing to raise such a big stink over it especially if the point is willing pvp not corruption pvp.

    Lastly it really sounds like you just want to be a BH and my suggestion will limit your targets.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    That's how I see it (including the rest points).
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    That's how I see it (including the rest points).

    So you would prefer the game allow for accidental PK against a low level noob or some other non-combatant so you have a handful more BH targets over the course of your tenure in the game? lol real team player here.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2020
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    That's how I see it (including the rest points).

    So you would prefer the game allow for accidental PK against a low level noob or some other non-combatant so you have a handful of more BH targets over the course of your tenure in the game? lol real team player here.

    It's more about a matter of "quantity of optionals vs quality of design".

    In addition I see your feature as meaningless PvP. "Oh there are some purples over there, let's kill em".
    It affects the community dynamic.

    I had my fill of meaningless PvP environments. I want a clean design.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    It's more about a matter of "quantity of optionals vs quality of design".

    In addition I see your feature as meaningless PvP. "Oh there are some purples over there, let's kill em".
    It affects the community dynamic.

    I had my fill of meaningless PvP environments. I want a clean design.

    Sorry, I’m really not following...

    Help me understand how disabling my combatant timer (which is basically what this flag does), creates meaningless PvP?

    - As a combatant I’ll have a broader set of players to fight
    - As a non-combatant I’m statistically safer. As a griefer I’m still able to take the same risk in target selection
    - As a roving pack of guild pvp’ers, there will be more targets to attack and less chance of corruption





    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    I've been really thinking about how the Corruption system is going to play out and it just seems like an annoyance from a group/guild pvp perspective. What I mean by this is, in the event there are mutual parties roaming for PvP it seems unfair or simply just out of place that the corruption system may play a part in this combat in a negative way. For example if two groups of 16 players are looking for combat and the first group stun locks a target or multiple and they die before they can "fight back" to initiate combatant mode this will cause corruption for 1 (or multiple) players in addition to added death penalties for the dead player(s) - all while it was the intention of all parties involved to engage in combat.

    I would like to propose the option to OPT IN to combatant mode at any time to welcome PvP and avoid non-combatant death penalties due to stun lock, low health or other circumstances when being killed by another player.

    I really can't see a downside to allowing players to opt-in at will for PvP content. I know for a fact I would likely prefer to be in combatant mode for almost all game play, though if for some reason I didn't want to be I could toggle it just like the heal mechanic to avoid the corruption thing.

    Can anyone see a reason not to allow players to opt in to be flagged combatant at will? I would suggest it has the same "cool down" when toggling it as stepping out of normal combat would, what ever that ends up being (2 minutes, 5 minutes 1 hour etc).

    This is already in the game. Turning PvP flag on and off is already there.
    At 1:16:00 they summon people to the dungeon and talk about people being flagged for PvP. The start telling people to turn the flag off.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkwaYLOuw2s
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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