Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
See, I put the audiovisual spectacle at about 4th.
First and foremost, MMO's are about interactions with other players, then interactions with the game systems, followed by storytelling. MOBA's need spectacle because that is all they use to pull players in with - MMO's have the persistent world and player interaction, as well as the evolving lore of the game that all add together to be a much more compelling game before you look at the spectacle.
Again though, this game is at least 2 years away from release (I am working on the assumption that it is 3 years away now). Actual class design would happen in the last year, perhaps 18 months, and the design of individual abilities (finished abilities - with augments) shouldn't really happen until after each class's basic design has been completed.
Having ideas for abilities is all good, but again, don't go expecting them to show off any such abilities for a long while yet.
That's what I tell people who are amazed that I don't watch TV. I'd rather be a participant than a spectator.
I think you have a point.
I also want to make 2 points:
1) Player vs player interaction is like, what? 30-50% of the cool factor of MMORPG.
2) We are in the worst time in human history to undersell spectacle.
The roman coliseum was a thing in 2000 years ago for a reason.
Marvel Cinematic Universe and all the money they have made in the last 10 years.
Mobas made e-sports a thing.
2+2
Just my vision and my showman alter ego
I'm not saying spectacle isn't a thing, I am saying it isn't the main draw for an MMO.
Sure, the masses love Marvel movies, but that doesn't mean that same formula will work for every movie type. Look at what most people consider the top movies of all time, the discussion around that will always contain movies like Citizen Kane, Shawshank Redemption, Schindlers List, The Godfather (1 and 2), Goodfellas, Pulp Fiction, and so on. Sure, that discussion also features some movies like Endgame, LotR, Batman and some of the original Star Wars movies, which are obviously fairly heavy on spectacle, but that list over all should point out that spectacle is not in any way required for a movie to be at the peak of the art form.
What all of those movies do have in common though, is storytelling. Both in the writing and cinematography. They have character development, they have discovery in regards to that story they are telling. When you make a movie that has that spectacle but not the story telling, you end up with something like the current crop of DC movies.
It could even be argued that many of the Marvel movies put spectacle second place to story.
Games, however, are different. Since movies don't have the interactive aspect to them, they need the storytelling aspect. Because games obviously do have this, you absolutely can have games without that storytelling aspect to them and still be successful.
That is why MOBA's are as successful as they are. The storytelling aspect of them has been replaced with the interaction they offer.
MMORPG's however, are essentially the pinnacle of games (ask any game developer - there is more work in an MMO than in any other game genre).
As the pinnacle of the art form, MMORPG's do need storytelling, as well as that interaction. They need an amount of spectacle as well - I am not at all suggesting they don't - but it is not and should not be the focus.
If an MMO developer wanted to make a game where spectacle was the focus, and wanted to attract the type of gamer that puts spectacle as their primary consideration, the game they would make would essentially end out being a MOBA in all but name.
Another aspect of this to point out is in the heritage of each genre. MOBA's are essentially derived from FPS games (as I am sure you know). There is an amount of spectacle to FPS games (especially in the Warcraft 3 era).
MMORPG's on the other hand are derived from MUD's and tabletop games. These games literally have no spectacle at all to them, they literally have nothing at all to look at. That is why the focus of MMO's is in the interaction and storytelling - that is literally all the genre had at it's roots. Stray from that, and you don't have an MMO any more.
As to MOBA's literally making e-sports, yeah, they did - if you exclude Starcraft. But e-sports are the actual most rediculous thing to exist, so that isn't a pro for them as far as I am concerned.
The focus become distorted if you bring something like Shawshank Redemption.
If we are going to talk about peak art, Lord of the Ring and Marvel Cinematic Universe are closer to Ashes.
Something others genre should take note.
This is a fantasy game, and the post was about combat.
Fps is a whole different genre, almost completely the opposite, actually. As in real-time-mechanics.
Mobas are first strategy, and second mechanical.
Wow pvp is purely strategical cd management with little and simple mechanics.
Let's not get confused. Unless you have your friends, at your house, having a barbecue, while playing tabletop games, audiovisual computer games as a channel is the superior choice in every category.
Mobas have objetively dominated the scene for the last decade.
If you want a story, grab a book. I'm talking about combat in a fantasy setting and about taking it to the next era because that's the area I want to specialize.
I think we could learn from cinema how to deliver awesome fight scenes through audiovisual stimulus. The players are the first spectators and they deserve to feel powerful and look good while fighting.
LOTR is the culmination of historical fantasy trend Gladiator started in the 2000s.
MCU and Avengers is the culmination of superhero fantasy trend Iron Man started in 2010.
There is also a curious paralel between Wow/mmorpg trend dominating in the 2000s.
And Mobas trend dominating in the 2010s.
Studying history help us predict the future
I don't say this normally but that is HERSEY
Either way, the point I am making, that seems to have gone well over your head, is that the bulk of the MMO playerbase don't put spectacle high on the priority. They put things like storytelling, player interaction, and how combat feels well above how combat looks.
MOBA's put how combat looks higher because they need the game to look good - if people stopped watching MOBA's, those that play them would soon realize that they are not actually overly enjoyable games to play. Due to this, MOBA developers place a high value on spectacle.
Since Intrepid have zero e-sport intentions in relation to Ashes, there is no need to amp up the spectacle value. Everyone that is watching the game should also be playing the game, and so how combat feels should trump how it looks - but even that should fa behind other factors specific to MMO's (in regards to MOBA's, at least) like storytelling.
And again, if Intrepid were wanting to pull in the MOBA crowd, they would be making a MOBA.
If you want to talk about storytelling look for other post.
You are confusing concepts and the order I say things happened.
Mobas genre wasn't created for looks, and found a good pvp.
Mobas went for a good pvp, and it looked good.
Mobas have the abstract chess-like fights in your head againts your enemy, managing cd over time and putting in check each others cooldowns and disminishing returns.
And the mechanical, physical and highs of tension that makes for memorable combat moments by mechanically dodging something dangerous or using a mechanical/precision skill with the right timing and/or positioning, that ends up turning the tide of battle.
No they wouldn't.
There is more people playing than watching.
With over 80 million players world-wide today your argument streches logic.
No. No. No. No.
Your assume a lot of things about Mobas for someone who has no clue about them
I think this is a mediocre statement in 2020 where companies give videogame engines for free.
This is a counter-argument you just pulled out of your bass like most of them. You are the only one saying that.
If all pvp you have ever tasted was mmorpg and you want to stay in your little box with 20 years old combat system, good for you.
I've seen better, I have enjoyed and seen other enjoy memorable moments and I think mmorpg should evolve.
The big issue here seems to be that you are just grouping all games together in to one, totally ignoring the fact that different genres exist to provide different things to players. You seem to want to get the same thing out of all games you play, regardless of genre. As such, you are arguing in an attempt to make that a reality.
This is why I earlier pointed out the variation of movies that are considered widely to be the best ever (after you bought movies in to this discussion). Many of them are great movies without the spectacle - Schindlers List, for example, would have been a very strange movie if there was a Saving Private Ryan-esq combat scene in the middle of it. It is simply the wrong type of movie - the wrong genre - for that kind of spectacle.
Now, you may well not enjoy Schindlers List, or Citizen Kane, and may well be all about Marvel movies and such. That's great, you now know the genre of movie you like watching - so feel free to watch as many of those movies as you want. That doesn't mean you should ask for movies of other genres to include or enhance the aspects of Marvel movies that you enjoy though - as that would clearly and obviously be wrong.
With games, if you place that high of a priority on spectacle, then play games of a genre that also place that high of a priority on spectacle. Historically, that has not been MMO's. The focus there is on other things, with the spectacle being way down the list (though still on the list, to be fair). There is perhaps a need for MMO's to spawn a sub-genre in the same way that RTS (got the acronym right this time) did with MOBA's.
I am not going to argue that, and if/when that happens, MMO's may well go the way RTS games have gone now.
Thing is, that can't and won't happen when someone is trying to make a big budget MMO. You don't force sustainable change, it happens organically or not at all.
Yes, the best version of pvp available.
I love inertial mechanics in games too. And I definitely think MOBAs (League in particular) have shown that 3rd person games have amazing potential to play with positioning using tools like knockbacks/teleports/dashes/pulls/pushes/trips - I'd love to see them in AoC too! But the impact of LoL's innovation in 3rd person combat is hard to measure (but I can 100% relate to the staleness of MMORPG combat these days)
At this point, these mechanics definitely haven't been implemented in a similar way yet, but what we have is still pre-alpha and I think the engineers are currently focused on other more rudimentary issues right now.
To be very honest though, looking through the skills that have been designed so far - none of them look like skills that will have this depth. That pull seems to be the only hint of combat in this category and it's a pretty extreme version of it.
All of this is to say, I think it's unlikely that AoC will be heading in this direction for its combat because it's so foreign to the MMORPG concept as of 2020, and AoC is particularly focused on retrieving the best parts of past MMO's, rather than trying to invent something new (I know it's not new, but it's new to the genre). This is only my speculation though - I think alpha 1 or 2 is intending to gather data about the combat system - so it's hard to say anything for certain before we see combat in alpha 1.
I could be totally wrong in my guess, so it's probably worth asking about in the next Dev Questions.
I understand.
I just dislike traditionalism, mental lazyness and "thing has always been like that"
I'm sure it will eventually become the norm.
I will help Intrepid create an awesome combat system or I will create myself. You will hear of me again!
Yeah I forgot you already
Mods can close the post now.
Surely that is what FPS games offer. It is pure PvP, with nothing else.
The problem with attempting to outright replicate the amount of character manipulation seen in MOBA's in an MMO is that MOBA's only emply small maps - and these maps can easily be crafted to suit that style of game.
MMO's, on the other hand, need to create worlds, not maps. The entire world can not be created with that level of character manipulation in mind.
Rather, what MMO's are able to do is create a world, and then limit the amount of character manipulation that is available to players. This means unintended actions like pushing a player down a cliff are absolutely possible, but are not necessarily easy to pull off. As I have said in this thread, there will be at least 6000 abilities by the time augments are counted, and a number of them will include character manipulation - without a doubt. But it will be MMO levels of character manipulation, not MOBA levels.
If an MMO had MOBA levels of character manipulation, performing those unintended yet possible actions would be far too easy, and thus far too common.
This is as I said earlier, different genre offer different things. If that level of character manipulation is what you want, you absolutely have MOBA's for that. If you want that spectacle, you can have it. On the other hand, if you want a persistent world, if you want character development, if you want meaningful player interactions, then you have MMO's. You know you don't get to decide that, right?
For the 5th time, Mobas are not FPS.
You know level design, rigging, animation and physics are completely different things right?
No. This is incredible easy.
I do, actually.
I just need to stop responding.
Good talk!
While these things may all be different, the decisions made in one will affect the decisions made in all. You straight up can not design these systems independently of each other and expect to end up with a good game. I'm not watching that. If you have a point to make, make that point yourself. Literally the only thing you corrected me in was when I typed the wrong acronym. Thing is, since I followed that acronym up directly with the name of the specific game in question, if you were half as smart as you think you are, you would have realized that I knew what I was talking about, I just typed out the wrong acronym.
And no, you don't decide when the mods close threads, not even ones you started. If there is discussion still happening in the thread, and that discussion is not abusive or harmful in any way, then the thread stays open. If there is no discssion, the thread will fall off the front page.
Since I'm quite happy to continue discussion (with you or with others), then there is no reason for the mods to close the thread - despite you asking them to (because again, that is not your call).
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