Critical lack of lore + overwhelming amount of systems

Onahiri

You guys really need to release anything that engages the public with the lore BEFORE the launching of the game: a comic, a book, a video, anything, and it needs to happen by yesterday. One of the things that glue people to WoW, for example, is how much contact you can have with the lore even before you play the game. We have dozens of animations, a series of books, and we already had 3 Warcraft games even before WoW was released. It is a big thing. The lore is what makes these 3D models shooting magic and wielding swords become actual people that you care about, starting by your own character, because you at least have some kind of idea of the universe, the context he or she is in. Also, one extremely important element of the game is how it's going to be presented to the players as they progress in the leveling. Steven has already mentioned about a dozen of systems, mechanics, differentials that are included in everything we interact with in the game. Everything has a system, a tier, a use, a variable and that needs to be introduced in VERY SMALL bits, otherwise people will be overwhelmed. Following the popularity of instant-gratification based genres of games like mobas, fps and battle royales, it is very easy to scare the gaming Andies away. If they are presented more than one aspect that denies that instant gratification at a time, it's almost surely one less player. I apologize if these ideas are saturated.

Sathrago

Onahiri wrote: »

You guys really need to release anything that engages the public with the lore BEFORE the launching of the game: a comic, a book, a video, anything, and it needs to happen by yesterday. One of the things that glue people to WoW, for example, is how much contact you can have with the lore even before you play the game. We have dozens of animations, a series of books, and we already had 3 Warcraft games even before WoW was released. It is a big thing. The lore is what makes these 3D models shooting magic and wielding swords become actual people that you care about, starting by your own character, because you at least have some kind of idea of the universe, the context he or she is in. Also, one extremely important element of the game is how it's going to be presented to the players as they progress in the leveling. Steven has already mentioned about a dozen of systems, mechanics, differentials that are included in everything we interact with in the game. Everything has a system, a tier, a use, a variable and that needs to be introduced in VERY SMALL bits, otherwise people will be overwhelmed. Following the popularity of instant-gratification based genres of games like mobas, fps and battle royales, it is very easy to scare the gaming Andies away. If they are presented more than one aspect that denies that instant gratification at a time, it's almost surely one less player. I apologize if these ideas are saturated.

One of the biggest issues wow has had with lore is that its spread out across way too much media imo. The better idea would be to build the game similarly to dark souls, weave in the lore naturally but don't completely shove it in the players faces like it is more important than good gameplay.

Onahiri

"One of the biggest issues wow has had with lore is that its spread out across way too much media imo. The better idea would be to build the game similarly to dark souls, weave in the lore naturally but don't completely shove it in the players faces like it is more important than good gameplay."

How is that an issue? I've known many people who still buy WoW products long after they've stopped playing and always relapse whenever something exciting is released in the game. Inserting the lore in other kinds of media grasps people very firmly. Thing with AoC is that, as of now, the game is being released with no notion of the lore for the players, and I think that's a bad idea.

MrSphinx93

Onahiri wrote: »

You guys really need to release anything that engages the public with the lore BEFORE the launching of the game: a comic, a book, a video, anything, and it needs to happen by yesterday. One of the things that glue people to WoW, for example, is how much contact you can have with the lore even before you play the game. We have dozens of animations, a series of books, and we already had 3 Warcraft games even before WoW was released. It is a big thing. The lore is what makes these 3D models shooting magic and wielding swords become actual people that you care about, starting by your own character, because you at least have some kind of idea of the universe, the context he or she is in. Also, one extremely important element of the game is how it's going to be presented to the players as they progress in the leveling. Steven has already mentioned about a dozen of systems, mechanics, differentials that are included in everything we interact with in the game. Everything has a system, a tier, a use, a variable and that needs to be introduced in VERY SMALL bits, otherwise people will be overwhelmed. Following the popularity of instant-gratification based genres of games like mobas, fps and battle royales, it is very easy to scare the gaming Andies away. If they are presented more than one aspect that denies that instant gratification at a time, it's almost surely one less player. I apologize if these ideas are saturated.

You're comparing two games against each other that only share a genre, if AoC had been out the same length of time as WoW then sure this would be a valid critique however WoW was initially an RTS which then had its lore expanded upon with the MMO, books, comics etc etc.
I like the idea Sathrago proposed of organic storytelling through the environment seeing as the world we'll be playing in is being colonised by us so the only real lore that can be given to us now is racial interactions beforehand and religion if I'm remembering correctly. Other than that I assume we'll uncover more lore as the world is explored and nodes are developed. Plus depending on how nodes develop on each server there might be gaps or discrepancies between servers about the lore.

George_Black

They said the dont want to reveal the lore.

Sathrago

Onahiri wrote: »

"One of the biggest issues wow has had with lore is that its spread out across way too much media imo. The better idea would be to build the game similarly to dark souls, weave in the lore naturally but don't completely shove it in the players faces like it is more important than good gameplay."

How is that an issue? I've known many people who still buy WoW products long after they've stopped playing and always relapse whenever something exciting is released in the game. Inserting the lore in other kinds of media grasps people very firmly. Thing with AoC is that, as of now, the game is being released with no notion of the lore for the players, and I think that's a bad idea.

because it draws people out of the game to go buy alternative media instead of gaining it all from the game while playing. I am all for media that takes lore from the game and idk makes a movie or something but having it portray lore that has not been discovered feels like lost potential for a quest line, boss fight, hidden secrets, etc.

mrwaffles

I'd encourage you go read the latest directors letter and focus on the part where they describe what an alpha is. they are at the portion of development where they are still working on key systems. Do they have lore, yeah they've said they have a bunch, but right now they are making their their game actually runs first. Also, look at all the vidoes in the beginning because the lore is all they ever gave us.

Maybe instead of asking for a TLDR comic book you start reading about Verra. For a game that is not even in public Alpha there's a bunch of info in related to lore.

The lore is what i love about this game. A people driven away from their home due to some Calamity and then they come back (more to it then that lol) and you are one of the returning. On top of that there is a group of people that didn't make it off the planet and survived all those years (tulnar).

What's I'm getting at is WoW, ESO, FF, and others had lore from their predecessors and AoC can't even compete with that.

Either way you seem like you're pumped for the game, so much so that your first post is talking about lore lol. So glad to have you here with us and pull up a chair because it's going to be a fun ride till release day!

Talents

No.

Hellfar

I disagree with the idea of putting certain lore into external media. One thing I really despised about the WoW storytelling was that you had to purchase the books that explain the "between expansion" lore that takes place, such as the pre-MoP events that resulted in Theramore blowing up, and the pre-WoD Garrosh trials. All of this lore should have taken place in game during the pre-patches for those expansions imo.

Something to summarize the lore, such as the WoW Chronicles series, could possibly be useful and a fun read, but everything lore wise should really take place in game to experience.

Wandering Mist

It's rather unfair to compare WoW to Ashes when it comes to lore as, like you said, there were 3 Warcraft games that covered a lot of the lore before WoW was even conceived.

I personally agree with Steven on this, I would much rather discover the lore for myself in game than have it spoiled to me before the game is released. If we take WoW as an example, do you think people would have enjoyed Warcraft 3 as much if they knew how it all ended before the game was released?

The trick with any game is to give just enough information to get the player interested, but leave enough stuff hidden to give players a reason to go out and find it. So far I believe Intrepid have achieved this goal with Dillia's Diary and the other lore titbits they have given us so far. We know that we had to leave the world of Verra because of the Apocalyse brought on by Corruption, and that the gods helped us escape through the portals to Sanctus. What we don't know is where the Corruption came from and what happened to Verra in our absence, which gives us a reason to go explore the world at the beginning of the mmo.

Lore Dynamic

I like lore.

I like to digest the lore within the environment itself. In real time. Have the story/history revealed to me as I explore and go seeking for it. It connects me to the reality that I exist in, in that moment. Knowing that; "If I want more mysteries resolved" - I need to BE in Verra to discover it...

It builds anticipation for the next opportunity that I get to dive back in. That anticipation is exciting.

I like the way the developers have addressed lore thus far; just giving us a taste of it. Bit by bit, to wet our pallets. Not satiate us. Just enough to peak our curiosity and dazzle our imaginations.

Maezriel

There's plenty of very successful games that have deep interesting lore that no one knew anything about until after their launch.

Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect, Fallout, The Elder Scrolls, even Warcraft 1-3 launched w/ little more than a cinematic trailer.

I literally host a podcast on Warcraft's lore and still hate that I have to read three pdf short stories, watch several different YouTube animations, and buy a book just to start understanding what is happening in the game.

Blrrgh

Here is a wild idea: Adventure across the giant world and arrive at your own interpretation of what is going on. While doing so, participate in the actual stories that take place across the open world over days, months, years. Write your own lore. Become a legend on your server. Blah blah blah etc etc.

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I personally agree with Steven on this, I would much rather discover the lore for myself in game than have it spoiled to me before the game is released.

Same.

I'm actually trying to work out how out of game lore could actually work.

If there were stories written to supplement the in game lore for Ashes, would those stories simply assume node state? If they do, wouldn't that make the stories completely irrelevent to many servers?

Lore from before The Fall, and from Sanctus would be great - as a supplement post launch, but I am not sure I would want to see any attempt to write lore for the game in any way other than as server specific stories.

Nagash

Warhammer fantasy would like a word

Warth

disagreed with op

Ravudha

So far I get the impression that what engages players the most is the general theme and mechanics of the game - they want to know who they can be and what they can do.

I kind of figure that having tons of information on systems is good because it means there's a higher chance that a player will get hooked by some part of it, based on what's relevant to their in game goals, without having to consume or learn all of it.

Onahiri

Thank you everybody for you input on this. I have come to agree with most of your points, and will certainly keep making posts but only as the game progresses to avoid unnecessary repetition. Quite hyped for this

MrScrewtape

I really like lore inside the game, I don't want to watch movies, read books and websites simply to figure out what is going on inside the game.

Guild Wars 2 has to be my favorite story telling / lore experience yet. Was easy enough to follow, pretty engaging and you actually were able to have some impact and choose from multiple story lines in some situations.

Umata

Onahiri wrote: »

Also, one extremely important element of the game is how it's going to be presented to the players as they progress in the leveling. Steven has already mentioned about a dozen of systems, mechanics, differentials that are included in everything we interact with in the game. Everything has a system, a tier, a use, a variable and that needs to be introduced in VERY SMALL bits, otherwise people will be overwhelmed. Following the popularity of instant-gratification based genres of games like mobas, fps and battle royales, it is very easy to scare the gaming Andies away. If they are presented more than one aspect that denies that instant gratification at a time, it's almost surely one less player. I apologize if these ideas are saturated.

I 100% understand this sentiment however the MMO player base is very diferent from the ones you mentioned. The MMO player base LOVES complex systems so I don't really think you need to worry about that especially about a new game with non NDA Alphas and Betas. Players will have all of these systems figured out ever before launch.

PhyleX

I want the GAME to tell me all the lore there is for the world. Getting the lore form other media is a dogsheeit excuse to avoid the work of storytelling in the game.

I get op´s love for a good book or smth like that, its not bad at all. But the game needs to be a masterpiece, that tells the amazing stoy on its own. Not some book that 93% of the Players have no clue about because they do not buy it or simply do not knnow about it.

Amma

Warcraft I = 1994
Warcraft II = 1995
Warcraft III = 2002
WoW = 2004

So......we should postpone AoC 10 Years and make 3 other smaller offline games to have the same lore? :-)

Marcet

Lore is very important and should be the BASE where the game is created, the world and all its history should make sense to then build a game on top of it. Not the other way around.

Everybody likes good lore in their game, If it's told in-game and not by external means it's awesome, I love it in dark souls (one of the best lores ever) and they can do a great job at it.

But just remember lore is the first thing, the base of the game, not a lore created after the game. And we want an expansive lore that explains how that universe works.

mrwaffles

Marcet wrote: »

Lore is very important and should be the BASE where the game is created, the world and all its history should make sense to then build a game on top of it. Not the other way around.

Everybody likes good lore in their game, If it's told in-game and not by external means it's awesome, I love it in dark souls (one of the best lores ever) and they can do a great job at it.

But just remember lore is the first thing, the base of the game, not a lore created after the game. And we want an expansive lore that explains how that universe works.

I agree, and a lot of the IS are big roll players. They've streamed a few sessions too and suggest people go check em out. I've watch a bunch of live streams for games in the past and they've never played a single roll playing session (table top that is). Thats not the end of the world because they still have great stories. I just think if a lot of the staff has actually roll played then the culture in the studio is different. Everyone is involved in the story and can contribute. Not just a small team of story writers.

JoelTGM

I played WoW for the first time with no knowledge of the lore. It was just a fun experience to explore the world. I learned as I went along. The game should tell the story. You can't expect everyone to read books before they play the game. Also I think the worst way to make lore is to force it out. You're telling them to write books yesterday. That's a horrible way to approach art and creativity. Just relax.

winner909098

Onahiri wrote: »

Thank you everybody for you input on this. I have come to agree with most of your points, and will certainly keep making posts but only as the game progresses to avoid unnecessary repetition. Quite hyped for this

I will just copy and paste this in every PVE thread that pops up, we have to many unnecessary threads.

Nagash

Amma wrote: »

Warcraft I = 1994
Warcraft II = 1995
Warcraft III = 2002
WoW = 2004

So......we should postpone AoC 10 Years and make 3 other smaller offline games to have the same lore? :-)

Or just "borrow" lore from another franchise and make the smallest of changes and pass it as your own

Voidwalkers

No, please don't. When you cross media, different factors that influence quality comes into play.

What makes a great game is different from what makes a great film, comic, novel. We've allllll seen wonderful games that have a terrible film adaptation (and vice versa).

I'd rather have Intrepid focus entirely on delivering a great game, and not diverting resources on releasing mediocre media just for the sake of communing the lore.

And on top of that, I think that's what an OPEN WORLD mmo should be about - you're not supposed to know everything (through out of game media), but instead you experience and find out about the world around you, in game.

btw, have been a wow player for years, but never bought any out-of-game media.

Atama

Amma wrote: »

Warcraft I = 1994
Warcraft II = 1995
Warcraft III = 2002
WoW = 2004

So......we should postpone AoC 10 Years and make 3 other smaller offline games to have the same lore? :-)

It’s already been postponed a couple of years and we’ve had Apocalypse released as a game (in the loosest sense), so they’re 1/3 of the way there already if that’s the route they wanna go.

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

Amma wrote: »

Warcraft I = 1994
Warcraft II = 1995
Warcraft III = 2002
WoW = 2004

So......we should postpone AoC 10 Years and make 3 other smaller offline games to have the same lore? :-)

It’s already been postponed a couple of years and we’ve had Apocalypse released as a game (in the loosest sense), so they’re 1/3 of the way there already if that’s the route they wanna go.

I don't personally think that counts.

Not because Apoc was a test or what ever, but because if we are talking about the games lore, then people need to be able to go back to the previous games again.

We can go back to earlier Warcraft games, but not to Apoc.

Atama

Noaani wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Amma wrote: »

Warcraft I = 1994
Warcraft II = 1995
Warcraft III = 2002
WoW = 2004

So......we should postpone AoC 10 Years and make 3 other smaller offline games to have the same lore? :-)

It’s already been postponed a couple of years and we’ve had Apocalypse released as a game (in the loosest sense), so they’re 1/3 of the way there already if that’s the route they wanna go.

I don't personally think that counts.

Not because Apoc was a test or what ever, but because if we are talking about the games lore, then people need to be able to go back to the previous games again.

We can go back to earlier Warcraft games, but not to Apoc.

I say, I say, that was a joke son.