While level 1-49: 1 change allowed per day to help narrow down your choice
At level 50: 1 change allowed per month
Cost: a ton of gold and a lengthy class-based quest
I'm not a fan of hard limits like this.
There are likely to be many things that change once we hit the level cap. Item progression will change, we will dedicate more time to getting augments from non-class paths, not to mention that we don't have access to the full class until the level cap.
To me, if someone are ds hoursor even days working through all these avenues to get various augments, they should be able to swap out second dairy classes to try them out.
Not necessarily at will, but if a quest to change secondary class takes 2 hours, a player should then be able to go out and do that quest again right away - if they want to.
The limit should be in either how much time it takes to change, or how much it costs - not some arbitrary timer.
Fair enough. I'd probably just go with a lengthy quest then.
I genuinely don't see why people would want an extremely long cooldown put in place on something like this? I understand some people are afraid of meta builds and fotm kinds of trends that can sometimes destabilize the class/build variety of games. I just don't get how forcing someone who would like to try one of those specializations into keeping it for 4+ weeks is a good solution?
For those who wish there to be a lengthy quest involved each time you'd like to change a spec, what is the merit of punishing a players time? if I want to jump into a PvP build and do some arena for the next few days, what is the benefit of spending a few hours of doing the same quest over and over if I want to tweak/test different builds. Do you feel like players wouldn't spend the 2 or 4 hours needed to swap specs for before and after a raid or siege to be most effective in that combat? Does churning someone through the same time-sink content like that enrich the game?
I feel like it would be nice for there to be a total of 64 unique quests (8 for each primary class) to unlock your secondary classes ... but those would be more of a one time per character thing. I think this style of gameplay is a lot more immersive and can genuinely act as a semi-tutorial of how the subclass works and the lore behind it.
I also feel like the idea of a character being able to change their secondary class on the fly and anywhere is not good. I feel like I am not alone with wanting there to be gravity to the choices you make with your build/spec/secondary class. Being able to change it on the fly out in a dungeon or something along those lines just sounds like a recipe for exploitation or the trivialization of some PvE mechanics. Changing your secondary class should be something that needs to be done in a higher level node with an appropriate building, or -maybe- something crafted you could place in a freehold.
Why do I feel like the main sink for swapping your class should be a hefty sum of gold, or a crafted item requiring expensive materials? Because it allows you to create a weight to the choices of a player, without forcing them to do a kind of content they particularly don't like. You can get gold anywhere, and choose how you make it. If you like to PvP, maybe you get people to hire you on to defend their caravans, maybe you craft or gather or just simply flip the markets with a keen eye. It keeps the agency on the player, where it belongs. If you are in a guild, having access to respec potions or enchantments can be something greatly useful for recruiting. If YOU have the ability to make respec items it could give you great value in the eyes of guilds.
What do you believe are the merits and flaws of a system you'd like to see, or personally prefer?
1
Options
GrentonMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
1.Either a questline to change the class that takes you through relearning the new one (Can be super tedious.)
2. Maybe a more popular one, have an item made by a crafter that they can only make 1-2 times per week (not to inflate the market) that a player can then use to change their seconday.
mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited December 2020
I think the goal of the system should be to allow players to do it but not make swapping your secondary part of the game. What i mean by this is i don't think players should be thinking about swapping their secondary based off the content they are doing. I think the best way to prevent this is to put a long cooldown on it so you can't reliably switch secondary.
I like the idea of it being a time-gated quest that has a small time investment, like a few hours. I'd also like this quest to have a decent cooldown, at least a week, so it's something you can do but not something you are constantly changing based off the content you are doing.
To me, it would be nice if the quest has something to do with your secondary, like you do a quest for a group of mages that teaches you magic and gives you the mage secondary.
1
Options
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In Lord of the Rings Online you could change your spec by paying some gold to an NPC. It made it a money sink. I played a Guardian (tank class) and I was frequently swapping between a DPS-oriented build for soloing and questing, and a defense-heavy build when my guild needed me to tank for them in dungeons and raids. It worked well because it was available when I needed it, but I didn't do it casually because it was EXPENSIVE. Something like that might work in Ashes too.
2
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I still say we lock everyone to their class but that's just me
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
I like a few of the ideas here and here's what I'd suggest.
Everyone has do to a short introductory and lore-based quest to unlock the 8 secondary class choices. There would be a different quest for each secondary class so you only do a quest for the ones you're interested in unlocking. This is offered at whatever level you choose your secondary class (10? 20?). These are one time unlocks.
If you want to change your secondary class, you can do so freely with no cooldown up until level 30. This allows players to play around with playstyles and builds as they level up to decide what they want to stick with long term.
After level 30 if you wish to change secondary classes, you have to do a questline. I don't like the idea of requiring crafting classes because that seems unrelated to class choices. And it shouldn't require a ton of money simply because some people are great at earning money, so it wouldn't serve as the necessary barrier to entry for them that it needs to. I would merely suggest letting players choose either a solo or group questline. The solo questline would be longer and more involved because it's harder to find a group. You would do this same questline every time you wanted to change classes.
The questline should involve several steps at least so it's not a last minute, quick and easy choice to change classes. You need to set aside time and plan ahead. The idea is if you hate the secondary class you chose, you can change to another one so everyone can enjoy their character, but you're not going to be switching constantly so it should be a careful and long term decision.
After the secondary class is switched, I'd suggest a one month/30 day cooldown, to enforce the idea that this is a permanent choice. We don't want players trying to change their secondary class choice just so they can have the perfect group PvE build, and then switch to a perfect siege PvP build, etc. It's all about risk vs reward - pick what you want to go with knowing it won't be perfect for all situations. You need to choose what matters most to you and deal with the consequences. This also allows for build variety and limits metas.
Eh... what a true pvp forum warrior would suggest...
At lvl 25 (if I’m not wrong) you choose your secondary and get a token for it. Want to change? Kill someone with the secondary you want, with a level equal or higher than yours. Get his token, go to town, visit a trainer for that secondary and switch your secondary for the new one. Your old token is gone. Only two tokens can be held at one time by a single character (if you kill one with two, you get only the one of the active secondary, the other gets destroyed). Add any amount of quest/lore steps to the trainer part. The character who was killed and lost his token you may ask about... limit his available secondary augments for a time, before a new token appears or have him do some trainer duty too. Shake everything with some clever lore explanation as of why such tokens delirium is in place and there you go.
0
Options
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I still say we lock everyone to their class but that's just me
Nah, you can change your secondary, but if you do, you can never take that one back again (with that character). Scorned and disgraced by the sub-class quest giver!
I also feel like the idea of a character being able to change their secondary class on the fly and anywhere is not good. I feel like I am not alone with wanting there to be gravity to the choices you make with your build/spec/secondary class. Being able to change it on the fly out in a dungeon or something along those lines just sounds like a recipe for exploitation or the trivialization of some PvE mechanics. Changing your secondary class should be something that needs to be done in a higher level node with an appropriate building, or -maybe- something crafted you could place in a freehold.
Changing it by just going back to town or through gold/an item would also trivialise it; that's why I opted for a lengthy quest - it's much harder to reduce the time requirement for something than a gold requirement. If it's gold/items, players or guilds could just stock up resources to the point where they are able to facilitate class changes extremely quickly.
My opinion/preference is in line with what @mcstackerson said - players shouldn't be changing class based off the content they're doing, and, whether it's a lengthy quest or something else, I hope the mechanics are a deterrent to that kind of play style.
1
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I still say we lock everyone to their class but that's just me
Nah, you can change your secondary, but if you do, you can never take that one back again (with that character). Scorned and disgraced by the sub-class quest giver!
Now that would be funny to see
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
0
Options
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I still say we lock everyone to their class but that's just me
Nah, you can change your secondary, but if you do, you can never take that one back again (with that character). Scorned and disgraced by the sub-class quest giver!
Well ain’t it Mr. Hoity-Toity who thinks he’s too good to be a Templar! How is Apostle doing for you? Aww, not doing enough damage in combat? WELL TOO BAD! I guess you should have thought of that before spitting on the noble Order of Templars and becoming a “Possy”. Enjoy your wet golden noodle, boy!
I do think the idea of having to unlock a secondary class is pretty neat and using a player crafted item to make the change sounds great too.
However I feel requiring components from every crafting class is a bit much. I feel like you should have multiple avenues to get a kind of item that allows you to swap, but it's maybe from a few crafters that make sense (Alchemy, enchanting, cooking) where you have some kind of consumable.
Instead of a single token, there could be 8 different tokens, each one specific to one of the 8 classes, and then divide up all the ingredients/skills needed to create them among the best related gathering/processing/crafting professions. For instance a Mage Token might require skills related to gathering/processing/crafting of herbs, a Ranger Token skills related to harvesting animals, a Cleric Token wood (effigies), a Tank Token metal ores, etc.
This might be a way to involve all the professions, while at the same time spread out the load a bit so that only a few professions are needed to create each token. It would be great for an economy, and may even help limit meta's a bit, as Nodes struggle to meet supply of whatever the latest flavour of the month turns out to be, rather than only needing to supply a single token that covers everything.
We don't want players trying to change their secondary class choice just so they can have the perfect group PvE build, and then switch to a perfect siege PvP build, etc. It's all about risk vs reward - pick what you want to go with knowing it won't be perfect for all situations. You need to choose what matters most to you and deal with the consequences.
Well said.
I feel something else that's relevant here is uniqueness. Choosing a class contributes heavily to a the feeling of character uniqueness, and the ability for others to switch classes diminishes that similar to, but maybe not as much as, switching an artisan mastery would IMHO.
I feel that it would be more immersive to pay in experience/levels at a designated npc/location/node rather than paying in gold or doing a quest. It makes sense in game that you lose your experience if you suddenly lose the skills that your player had through hours of gameplay for completely new ones. It would let lower level players mess around with different subclasses at lower cost while progressively making it more taxing on higher leveled characters who get used to the gameplay of a specific subclass. It wouldn't be as hardcore as starting a new character or regressing to an extremely low level but it would require the player to grind back up to their old level and prevent them from constantly switching builds as they get later in the game.
Quest or item based class changes tend to favor the higher-leveled characters, which can amass gold, items, or dps much easier than the lower leveled ones can.
While level 1-49: 1 change allowed per day to help narrow down your choice
At level 50: 1 change allowed per month
Cost: a ton of gold and a lengthy class-based quest
WoW Shadowlands did something similar to this, and it was really cool. For those who aren't playing, there are four distinct factions that you quest through, and each has their own abilities. While you're leveling in their zone, you get to use their abilities. Once you finish the campaign, you have to make a more permanent decision for which faction you follow.
I found that the 'trial period' they implemented felt really cool while I was leveling, and it helped me make a more informed decision at max level.
Something similar could be cool in AoC! What if there were specific questlines that allowed you to try out different archetypes before you had to make a permanent decision? Some ideas:
I play as a rogue, and i'm offered a quest: Something has been murdering the peaceful citizens during the night, and they want me to investigate, hunt down, and kill whatever's behind it. As I play through the questline, I garner help from the local ranger's guild, and they give me some tips on how to track down this fiend. As a result, I have access to a few ranger augmentations during this quest, and I experience what it's like to be a Predator (Rogue/Ranger) before I have to make a real decision.
Alternatively, I could be offered a quest to sneak into a bandit group and... "deal" with their leader. This quest focused on sneakery and subtlety would give me a taste of what it's like to be a true Assassin, rather than a simple, everyday Rogue.
A mage on that same quest would have to learn and study ways to cast their fiery and extravagant magic without drawing any attention, making them a Shadow Caster. A Cleric however... doesn't have to do much learning. Instead, they ask the Greater Powers for aid, allowing them to temporarily channel their darker forces, without becoming a true Shadow Disciple.
You get my point. I think there's a lot of potential in RP/Lore driven quests that let you try out different secondary classes.
Even outside of just trying them out... A full questline to pick it/change it would work nicely. You could have the questline even require certain reagents to create the monetary cost of changing your secondary class. It would be a lot more interesting than a gamey "you must wait 28 more days to change your secondary class".
TLDR: RP/Lore driven questlines that allow you to try out, select, and change your secondary class would be friggen awesome.
People liked the skill system of diablo 3 a lot. Me too.
I would like any skills to be changeable immediately.
I like to test them easily without hustle.
People liked the skill system of diablo 3 a lot. Me too.
I would like any skills to be changeable immediately.
I like to test them easily without hustle.
This leaves a game where player choice is meaningless.
There should be ways to change up what skills you have, but it should not be effortless. The choice you make in relation to your secondary class, the specific class skills you pick and the augments you put on those skills should have some weight to it.
How do the secondary archetypes work to begin with lore wise? is it training you go through and you neglect certain skills in order to train others for to change secondary archetypes or is it possibly something like a magical artifact/amulet/token/sigil of some kind which is attuned to certain energies that given time and resources can be attuned to other energies of a sort to give the different secondary abilities? I personally think that the cost in resources/time/quests/etc. should be partially determined by the lore behind how secondary archetypes work. Also as others have pointed out is that there shouldn't be long month long cooldowns as that wouldn't be very fun (might as well make more characters at that point) and because people are going to want to try each of the secondary archetypes to find the one they enjoy more.
After the secondary class is switched, I'd suggest a one month/30 day cooldown, to enforce the idea that this is a permanent choice. We don't want players trying to change their secondary class choice just so they can have the perfect group PvE build, and then switch to a perfect siege PvP build, etc. It's all about risk vs reward - pick what you want to go with knowing it won't be perfect for all situations. You need to choose what matters most to you and deal with the consequences. This also allows for build variety and limits metas.
I do agree that having things more loose as you are leveling up will help, for sure, but MMOs change. Eventually, something in the game will change the value of the spec you choose. I know some people don't put as high of a value on trying to be as efficient as possible, but its a pretty strong motivating factor to me, and others. Every class will have a best build for X content, and there will be people who have characters just for that content. This notion that "Well, if you let them change it more often, then they'll just change it for the content at the time" only hurts people who don't have the time to level up and keep multiple characters relevant. People will level characters for X content. There is no such game in the history of online games that has avoided the meta.
I, by no means, want the ability to swap between classes to be without any kind of harsh drawbacks. If the source of the item required to respec, was from some rarer spawns that kept the availability of them in extremely high demand, I think that could help alleviate some concerns of of people doing it wildly. I don't think the system should make it smart to change your spec every week. It should be very costly. I would say a good benchmark would be something equal to about 10-15 hours of max level direct money-making tasks, or 20+ hours of passive play.
I personally find timegates as a sin of videogame design. Not all people play the same amount. If one player puts 40 hours each week and another puts in 8 ... 30 days is a much different ask for those players. I feel like you should get out what you put in. Timegates are the antithesis of this.
People are going to abuse or game any system you throw out there, you just need to have a right balance of effort versus exclusivity.
When it comes to swapping specs for Sieges ... yeah ... thats something I feel anyone should try to be at their absolute 100% for. You'd better bet the PvP hungry folks coming to take your junk and burn it down have the best build for it, and I'd not want anyone defending with me to have the optimal gatherer secondary class.
I personally find timegates as a sin of videogame design. Not all people play the same amount. If one player puts 40 hours each week and another puts in 8 ... 30 days is a much different ask for those players. I feel like you should get out what you put in. Timegates are the antithesis of this.
It's not a timegate. A timegate assumes it's something you're expected to do and thus the timegate is there to prevent you from doing it too quickly, or achieving a certain progression goal before the devs want you to. There's no expectation that players will or have to change their secondary class. The idea of the 30 day cooldown is to enforce the idea that it's a permanent change, and you're expected to not change your class. But should the need arise, you can occasionally do so if you discover your chosen class is not to your liking.
The idea of the 30 day cooldown is to enforce the idea that it's a permanent change, and you're expected to not change your class. But should the need arise, you can occasionally do so if you discover your chosen class is not to your liking.
They've given an estimation of 45 days to level up a character to maximum. 30 days just for a secondary archetype seems a little long.
The idea of the 30 day cooldown is to enforce the idea that it's a permanent change, and you're expected to not change your class. But should the need arise, you can occasionally do so if you discover your chosen class is not to your liking.
They've given an estimation of 45 days to level up a character to maximum. 30 days just for a secondary archetype seems a little long.
No, supposedly you gain your secondary archetype at level 25 or somewhere around there. I was just referring to the idea of changing it later on.
The idea of the 30 day cooldown is to enforce the idea that it's a permanent change, and you're expected to not change your class. But should the need arise, you can occasionally do so if you discover your chosen class is not to your liking.
They've given an estimation of 45 days to level up a character to maximum. 30 days just for a secondary archetype seems a little long.
No, supposedly you gain your secondary archetype at level 25 or somewhere around there. I was just referring to the idea of changing it later on.
I don't see the need for such a large barrier. Feels almost spiteful at that point. It gives me the "How DARE they try out another secondary class." kinda feel.
NPC vendor in-game selling a secondary class change. It could be expensive as a gold sink because changing secondary will be crucial for PvX endgame both for raiding/dungeons and pvp. Guild wars 1 had primary and secondary class system and people was changing secondaries all the time and it worked well with the NPC vendor.
0
Options
Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What about you, @Wandering Mist ? How would you like it done?
Oh yes, I forgot to give my own thoughts on this topic. I'm very torn. On the one hand, I get that big choices like this need to feel meaningful and impactful and therefore semi-permanent. The problem with this approach is that it works well in a single player RPG but not so much in an mmorpg.
Remember that in an mmorpg, the levelling process typically takes a lot longer, so remaking your character because you hit a wall is less of an option. On top of that, mmorpgs experience regular balance changes and if you're the type of person who is doing the hardest content and therefore wants the absolute best min-maxed character, permanent gameplay options are a big no-no. Imagine if you picked Mage/Mage because you were told it was the absolute best in terms of damage for the raids, and then 1 month later you get to max level and the game has been rebalanced, so now Mage/Summoner is the best.
You've just wasted so much time for nothing. That's why the top WoW guilds require their members to have at least 3 different classes levelled up and ready to go because they never know what will happen when the balance patches arrive.
As for how to change the secondary class, I'm personally in favour of a lore-centric quest, as long as it doesn't take too long. I'm not looking for an epic saga that requires days of work to complete, just something simple but meaningful in terms of the lore.
Comments
Fair enough. I'd probably just go with a lengthy quest then.
For those who wish there to be a lengthy quest involved each time you'd like to change a spec, what is the merit of punishing a players time? if I want to jump into a PvP build and do some arena for the next few days, what is the benefit of spending a few hours of doing the same quest over and over if I want to tweak/test different builds. Do you feel like players wouldn't spend the 2 or 4 hours needed to swap specs for before and after a raid or siege to be most effective in that combat? Does churning someone through the same time-sink content like that enrich the game?
I feel like it would be nice for there to be a total of 64 unique quests (8 for each primary class) to unlock your secondary classes ... but those would be more of a one time per character thing. I think this style of gameplay is a lot more immersive and can genuinely act as a semi-tutorial of how the subclass works and the lore behind it.
I also feel like the idea of a character being able to change their secondary class on the fly and anywhere is not good. I feel like I am not alone with wanting there to be gravity to the choices you make with your build/spec/secondary class. Being able to change it on the fly out in a dungeon or something along those lines just sounds like a recipe for exploitation or the trivialization of some PvE mechanics. Changing your secondary class should be something that needs to be done in a higher level node with an appropriate building, or -maybe- something crafted you could place in a freehold.
Why do I feel like the main sink for swapping your class should be a hefty sum of gold, or a crafted item requiring expensive materials? Because it allows you to create a weight to the choices of a player, without forcing them to do a kind of content they particularly don't like. You can get gold anywhere, and choose how you make it. If you like to PvP, maybe you get people to hire you on to defend their caravans, maybe you craft or gather or just simply flip the markets with a keen eye. It keeps the agency on the player, where it belongs. If you are in a guild, having access to respec potions or enchantments can be something greatly useful for recruiting. If YOU have the ability to make respec items it could give you great value in the eyes of guilds.
What do you believe are the merits and flaws of a system you'd like to see, or personally prefer?
2. Maybe a more popular one, have an item made by a crafter that they can only make 1-2 times per week (not to inflate the market) that a player can then use to change their seconday.
I like the idea of it being a time-gated quest that has a small time investment, like a few hours. I'd also like this quest to have a decent cooldown, at least a week, so it's something you can do but not something you are constantly changing based off the content you are doing.
To me, it would be nice if the quest has something to do with your secondary, like you do a quest for a group of mages that teaches you magic and gives you the mage secondary.
Everyone has do to a short introductory and lore-based quest to unlock the 8 secondary class choices. There would be a different quest for each secondary class so you only do a quest for the ones you're interested in unlocking. This is offered at whatever level you choose your secondary class (10? 20?). These are one time unlocks.
If you want to change your secondary class, you can do so freely with no cooldown up until level 30. This allows players to play around with playstyles and builds as they level up to decide what they want to stick with long term.
After level 30 if you wish to change secondary classes, you have to do a questline. I don't like the idea of requiring crafting classes because that seems unrelated to class choices. And it shouldn't require a ton of money simply because some people are great at earning money, so it wouldn't serve as the necessary barrier to entry for them that it needs to. I would merely suggest letting players choose either a solo or group questline. The solo questline would be longer and more involved because it's harder to find a group. You would do this same questline every time you wanted to change classes.
The questline should involve several steps at least so it's not a last minute, quick and easy choice to change classes. You need to set aside time and plan ahead. The idea is if you hate the secondary class you chose, you can change to another one so everyone can enjoy their character, but you're not going to be switching constantly so it should be a careful and long term decision.
After the secondary class is switched, I'd suggest a one month/30 day cooldown, to enforce the idea that this is a permanent choice. We don't want players trying to change their secondary class choice just so they can have the perfect group PvE build, and then switch to a perfect siege PvP build, etc. It's all about risk vs reward - pick what you want to go with knowing it won't be perfect for all situations. You need to choose what matters most to you and deal with the consequences. This also allows for build variety and limits metas.
But, you might find that you don't want to be a necr..... aaaaahahahahaha, couldn't keep my face straight!
At lvl 25 (if I’m not wrong) you choose your secondary and get a token for it. Want to change? Kill someone with the secondary you want, with a level equal or higher than yours. Get his token, go to town, visit a trainer for that secondary and switch your secondary for the new one. Your old token is gone. Only two tokens can be held at one time by a single character (if you kill one with two, you get only the one of the active secondary, the other gets destroyed). Add any amount of quest/lore steps to the trainer part. The character who was killed and lost his token you may ask about... limit his available secondary augments for a time, before a new token appears or have him do some trainer duty too. Shake everything with some clever lore explanation as of why such tokens delirium is in place and there you go.
Nah, you can change your secondary, but if you do, you can never take that one back again (with that character). Scorned and disgraced by the sub-class quest giver!
Changing it by just going back to town or through gold/an item would also trivialise it; that's why I opted for a lengthy quest - it's much harder to reduce the time requirement for something than a gold requirement. If it's gold/items, players or guilds could just stock up resources to the point where they are able to facilitate class changes extremely quickly.
My opinion/preference is in line with what @mcstackerson said - players shouldn't be changing class based off the content they're doing, and, whether it's a lengthy quest or something else, I hope the mechanics are a deterrent to that kind of play style.
Now that would be funny to see
Instead of a single token, there could be 8 different tokens, each one specific to one of the 8 classes, and then divide up all the ingredients/skills needed to create them among the best related gathering/processing/crafting professions. For instance a Mage Token might require skills related to gathering/processing/crafting of herbs, a Ranger Token skills related to harvesting animals, a Cleric Token wood (effigies), a Tank Token metal ores, etc.
This might be a way to involve all the professions, while at the same time spread out the load a bit so that only a few professions are needed to create each token. It would be great for an economy, and may even help limit meta's a bit, as Nodes struggle to meet supply of whatever the latest flavour of the month turns out to be, rather than only needing to supply a single token that covers everything.
Well said.
I feel something else that's relevant here is uniqueness. Choosing a class contributes heavily to a the feeling of character uniqueness, and the ability for others to switch classes diminishes that similar to, but maybe not as much as, switching an artisan mastery would IMHO.
Quest or item based class changes tend to favor the higher-leveled characters, which can amass gold, items, or dps much easier than the lower leveled ones can.
WoW Shadowlands did something similar to this, and it was really cool. For those who aren't playing, there are four distinct factions that you quest through, and each has their own abilities. While you're leveling in their zone, you get to use their abilities. Once you finish the campaign, you have to make a more permanent decision for which faction you follow.
I found that the 'trial period' they implemented felt really cool while I was leveling, and it helped me make a more informed decision at max level.
Something similar could be cool in AoC! What if there were specific questlines that allowed you to try out different archetypes before you had to make a permanent decision? Some ideas:
I play as a rogue, and i'm offered a quest: Something has been murdering the peaceful citizens during the night, and they want me to investigate, hunt down, and kill whatever's behind it. As I play through the questline, I garner help from the local ranger's guild, and they give me some tips on how to track down this fiend. As a result, I have access to a few ranger augmentations during this quest, and I experience what it's like to be a Predator (Rogue/Ranger) before I have to make a real decision.
Alternatively, I could be offered a quest to sneak into a bandit group and... "deal" with their leader. This quest focused on sneakery and subtlety would give me a taste of what it's like to be a true Assassin, rather than a simple, everyday Rogue.
A mage on that same quest would have to learn and study ways to cast their fiery and extravagant magic without drawing any attention, making them a Shadow Caster. A Cleric however... doesn't have to do much learning. Instead, they ask the Greater Powers for aid, allowing them to temporarily channel their darker forces, without becoming a true Shadow Disciple.
You get my point. I think there's a lot of potential in RP/Lore driven quests that let you try out different secondary classes.
Even outside of just trying them out... A full questline to pick it/change it would work nicely. You could have the questline even require certain reagents to create the monetary cost of changing your secondary class. It would be a lot more interesting than a gamey "you must wait 28 more days to change your secondary class".
TLDR: RP/Lore driven questlines that allow you to try out, select, and change your secondary class would be friggen awesome.
I would like any skills to be changeable immediately.
I like to test them easily without hustle.
This leaves a game where player choice is meaningless.
There should be ways to change up what skills you have, but it should not be effortless. The choice you make in relation to your secondary class, the specific class skills you pick and the augments you put on those skills should have some weight to it.
I do agree that having things more loose as you are leveling up will help, for sure, but MMOs change. Eventually, something in the game will change the value of the spec you choose. I know some people don't put as high of a value on trying to be as efficient as possible, but its a pretty strong motivating factor to me, and others. Every class will have a best build for X content, and there will be people who have characters just for that content. This notion that "Well, if you let them change it more often, then they'll just change it for the content at the time" only hurts people who don't have the time to level up and keep multiple characters relevant. People will level characters for X content. There is no such game in the history of online games that has avoided the meta.
I, by no means, want the ability to swap between classes to be without any kind of harsh drawbacks. If the source of the item required to respec, was from some rarer spawns that kept the availability of them in extremely high demand, I think that could help alleviate some concerns of of people doing it wildly. I don't think the system should make it smart to change your spec every week. It should be very costly. I would say a good benchmark would be something equal to about 10-15 hours of max level direct money-making tasks, or 20+ hours of passive play.
I personally find timegates as a sin of videogame design. Not all people play the same amount. If one player puts 40 hours each week and another puts in 8 ... 30 days is a much different ask for those players. I feel like you should get out what you put in. Timegates are the antithesis of this.
People are going to abuse or game any system you throw out there, you just need to have a right balance of effort versus exclusivity.
When it comes to swapping specs for Sieges ... yeah ... thats something I feel anyone should try to be at their absolute 100% for. You'd better bet the PvP hungry folks coming to take your junk and burn it down have the best build for it, and I'd not want anyone defending with me to have the optimal gatherer secondary class.
It's not a timegate. A timegate assumes it's something you're expected to do and thus the timegate is there to prevent you from doing it too quickly, or achieving a certain progression goal before the devs want you to. There's no expectation that players will or have to change their secondary class. The idea of the 30 day cooldown is to enforce the idea that it's a permanent change, and you're expected to not change your class. But should the need arise, you can occasionally do so if you discover your chosen class is not to your liking.
They've given an estimation of 45 days to level up a character to maximum. 30 days just for a secondary archetype seems a little long.
No, supposedly you gain your secondary archetype at level 25 or somewhere around there. I was just referring to the idea of changing it later on.
I don't see the need for such a large barrier. Feels almost spiteful at that point. It gives me the "How DARE they try out another secondary class." kinda feel.
Oh yes, I forgot to give my own thoughts on this topic. I'm very torn. On the one hand, I get that big choices like this need to feel meaningful and impactful and therefore semi-permanent. The problem with this approach is that it works well in a single player RPG but not so much in an mmorpg.
Remember that in an mmorpg, the levelling process typically takes a lot longer, so remaking your character because you hit a wall is less of an option. On top of that, mmorpgs experience regular balance changes and if you're the type of person who is doing the hardest content and therefore wants the absolute best min-maxed character, permanent gameplay options are a big no-no. Imagine if you picked Mage/Mage because you were told it was the absolute best in terms of damage for the raids, and then 1 month later you get to max level and the game has been rebalanced, so now Mage/Summoner is the best.
You've just wasted so much time for nothing. That's why the top WoW guilds require their members to have at least 3 different classes levelled up and ready to go because they never know what will happen when the balance patches arrive.
As for how to change the secondary class, I'm personally in favour of a lore-centric quest, as long as it doesn't take too long. I'm not looking for an epic saga that requires days of work to complete, just something simple but meaningful in terms of the lore.