Which loot system do you prefer for group content?

Alpha 1 is right around the corner so i would like to discuss one of the most game defining systems in a MMORPG - the loot system. For people new to the genre here is a small explanation of all possible looting rules that i know. I will add some pros and cons to each system if i have some time or if someone has good arguments for/against each system.

Master Loot: The party/raid lead is in charge of all loot and can decide which items go to whom.

Pros:
No random distribution
Enables discussion
Cons:
Exploitable if wrong person is the leader
Personal favors play a big roll

Dice Roll: This is often coupled with the Master Loot system: Each person who wants to have a specific item rolls a dice from 1 to 100. The highest roll wins the item.

Pros:
No tension between party members
Cons:
Not everyone should roll at every item (greed/need)
If unlucky, you dont get any items for a long time

Highest Bid: Each dropped item has its own auction between all party members. The item goes to the person who bids the most gold on it, the gold is automatically distributed to all other party members.

Pros:
Greedy people need a lot of money
If a rare item drops, everyone gets gold
Itemvalue is relevant
Cons:
The rich get most items
People who dont need the item might bid so you have to pay more

Free Loot: The items is not protected by any system and can be looted by every party member.

Pros:
Builds a lot of trust if done correctly
Cons:
Possibel to create a lot of tension between party members
Ninja looter

Personal Loot: Items will be automatically distributed to every party member, without any social interaction.

Pros:
No tension between party members
Cons:
No social interaction between party members
Luck plays a big role

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bloodprophet

daveywavey wrote: »

So, of your 8-player group, if two of them were offline, you'd just say: "Awww crap. Guess we can't raid, now." Or, would you go to your guild to find two players you know could fill in? Doesn't mean it's a pug, just cos you're not with the full set of your regular group.

I have in the past completed the raid and then the next night joined the other raid team knowing full well I would get nothing except a repair bill for my efforts the next night. I did it to help the guild. For the social credit in the guild so when I needed to do stuff later those same people would in turn help me.

In this game gear is gear there will be no PvP gear and PvE gear just gear. Helping your guildies get gear will in turn make your whole team get better. It will help you defend your nodes and caravans or take them from others depending on where your team ends up. It will also make it so your team can run dungeons and raids better so the next time you get stuff. I have run progression raids and gotten nothing one run cause others beat me on the rolls then the next week cleaned house cause they had the stuff already. It comes full circle.

ThePhilosophile

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

In every game I have played smaller raids have been more difficult.

The first main downside to it though, are that if you need to pull players from your second raid to your main raid, you would still need to have enough players online to allow that second raid to actually run raids. Since top end guilds would likely run with 48 - 52 players in the guild in a game with 40 player raids, if you are wanting to run a guild with 2 40 player raids, you would probably find that you need 110 - 120 players.

The second downside - though this one is specific to Ashes - is that recruiting all of those people mean your guild has to give something else up. We don't know what it is, but we know it is something.

the first main downside can be slightly alleviated if officers level multiple characters (and they should, they are dedicated enough to be an officer in a guild they should be dedicated enough to have a backup character to pick up slack in one area or the other)

the second problem "though this one isn't specific to Ashes" there we go, fixed. but in all seriousness, there's always some sort of trade off that comes with forming a large guild.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

The opposite has been true in every game I have played.

Everything that can be done in 8 player "raid" content can be done in the 8 player group content that Ashes will have.

What having more players than this in a raid allows for is straight up more flexibility in regards to encounter design. You could have an encounter that requires the raid of 40 to break itself up in to 5 "groups" of 8 (still formed in a single raid), and each of these groups is then given a different coordernated mechanic that they need to not only coordernate within their own small group, but coordernate that mechanic with the other 4 groups that are all doing a different mechanic.

While it may well suit some guilds to have two raid teams, a top end raid guild would have no real need for this. If a guild does find themselves short often though, this would be a good solution.

The first main downside to it though, are that if you need to pull players from your second raid to your main raid, you would still need to have enough players online to allow that second raid to actually run raids. Since top end guilds would likely run with 48 - 52 players in the guild in a game with 40 player raids, if you are wanting to run a guild with 2 40 player raids, you would probably find that you need 110 - 120 players.

The second downside - though this one is specific to Ashes - is that recruiting all of those people mean your guild has to give something else up. We don't know what it is, but we know it is something.

Yeah, some guilds have C-teams. I actually understand that some of the world first race teams do it the way I was suggesting. I agree that Ashes will be different. Securing the boss might be a challenge. You might need a few PvP teams to keep people from getting near the raid team in a dungeon.

I think 40+ man content could be tuned to be very hard, I just have never seen it. I always feel like I am on vacation raiding with more people. More reses, more interrupts, more everything that is helpful. The action economy is lower in smaller groups so if something gets messed up the mistake has more weight. I am used to content where if a single person makes a mistake. The raid wipes.

I might try EQ2 sometime before AOC comes out. Just to see it for myself.

Noaani

ThePhilosophile wrote: »

the second problem "though this one isn't specific to Ashes" there we go, fixed. but in all seriousness, there's always some sort of trade off that comes with forming a large guild.

I've not played any game where the size of your guild has an inverse function on an individual players combat efficacy. That is the situation in Ashes.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I think 40+ man content could be tuned to be very hard, I just have never seen it.

I haven't seen it with 40 either. To me, 24 is the optimal number - but that is only because that is what I am most familiar with.

I can't think of any game with 40 player raids other than Archeage and early WoW, and neither of them had overly difficult raids.

From a design perspective, the more players you design an encounter for, the more options you have as a designer. The issue with designing it for larger numbers is in the organization the guilds need.

I am used to content where if a single person makes a mistake. The raid wipes.

So am I, I am just used to that in a setting with 23 other players as opposed to 7 other players.

While not every raid encounter in games like EQ2 had such mechanics, all of the encounters that were worth remembering did.

If you do give EQ2 a go, I strongly suggest doing so on a fresh start server - if they release another round of them.

It would take you until Ashes releases to get to a point where you would be able to raid at the top end in that game if you started on a regular server today - although there is an expansion launching in the next few hours I believe, the games 16th full expansion.

ThePhilosophile

@Noaani

Noaani wrote: »

ThePhilosophile wrote: »

the second problem "though this one isn't specific to Ashes" there we go, fixed. but in all seriousness, there's always some sort of trade off that comes with forming a large guild.

I've not played any game where the size of your guild has an inverse function on an individual players combat efficacy. That is the situation in Ashes.

Oh I thought you were referring to the social infighting and potential factionalism, that isn't unique to any MMO. As far as combat efficacy is concerned, sometimes an efficient strike team is more effective than an unruly mob. Look at Planetside 2 as an example. now of course they can be grouped inside a large guild of course, but... eventually someone in the strike team is gonna be like "why the fuck are we wasting our time with these fools?" and they will break off. It happens all the time.

Noaani

ThePhilosophile wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ThePhilosophile wrote: »

the second problem "though this one isn't specific to Ashes" there we go, fixed. but in all seriousness, there's always some sort of trade off that comes with forming a large guild.

I've not played any game where the size of your guild has an inverse function on an individual players combat efficacy. That is the situation in Ashes.

Oh I thought you were referring to the social infighting and potential factionalism, that isn't unique to any MMO. As far as combat efficacy is concerned, sometimes an efficient strike team is more effective than an unruly mob. Look at Planetside 2 as an example. now of course they can be grouped inside a large guild of course, but... eventually someone in the strike team is gonna be like "why the fuck are we wasting our time with these fools?" and they will break off. It happens all the time.

That still isn't the same thing - I assume you are unfamiliar with the mechanic I am referring to.

In Ashes, guilds essentially have "talents" that they can spend on various things. Some of those things are combat boosters (likely to be in the form of passives), and some are in the form of max guild size increases.

Every time you take a guild size increase, you are forefeiting a passive ability for your guild.

daveywavey

Warth wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

So, of your 8-player group, if two of them were offline, you'd just say: "Awww crap. Guess we can't raid, now." Or, would you go to your guild to find two players you know could fill in? Doesn't mean it's a pug, just cos you're not with the full set of your regular group.

but what's the problem here?
Those 2 people can gladly join, but in cases like these it's important to talk through loot distribution beforehand.

Master Loot just ensures, that the previously discussed loot distribution is adhered to. No Ninja Loot Shenanigans.

If people are too socially inept, to figure out the loot distribution beforehand, then that's completely unrelated to the looting rights/system.

Master Loot isn't the only "social" loot type. Last game I played, before we started a raid, we'd talk to each other and assess each player's loot goals. If a certain player said they were there for a particular drop, and that drop came up, whoever was assigned that loot drop would give it to them. If a drop came up that no-one had wanted, then the player that was assigned it kept it.

Just cos you're not running Master Loot doesn't mean that you can't figure out loot distribution beforehand, or that you're socially inept. Grow up.

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

So, of your 8-player group, if two of them were offline, you'd just say: "Awww crap. Guess we can't raid, now." Or, would you go to your guild to find two players you know could fill in? Doesn't mean it's a pug, just cos you're not with the full set of your regular group.

but what's the problem here?
Those 2 people can gladly join, but in cases like these it's important to talk through loot distribution beforehand.

Master Loot just ensures, that the previously discussed loot distribution is adhered to. No Ninja Loot Shenanigans.

If people are too socially inept, to figure out the loot distribution beforehand, then that's completely unrelated to the looting rights/system.

Master Loot isn't the only "social" loot type. Last game I played, before we started a raid, we'd talk to each other and assess each player's loot goals. If a certain player said they were there for a particular drop, and that drop came up, whoever was assigned that loot drop would give it to them. If a drop came up that no-one had wanted, then the player that was assigned it kept it.

Just cos you're not running Master Loot doesn't mean that you can't figure out loot distribution beforehand, or that you're socially inept. Grow up.

While this is true, master looter makes this whole process smoother, easier and faster.

Again, master looter isn't suitable for groups unless everyone present trusts everyone else, but it is by far the fastest and easiest way to do loot if that is the case.

Kionashi

guys guys! what about a bidding system WITH dkp (dungeon kill points)?

when you form a party, or a new member is added to the party your dkp resets to 0 and your whole party gets points the more mobs they kill as a group (so the healer will get the same points as the dps). And anyone can pick the loot. At some point all the loot picked gets listed and a allow people to bid for items using those dkp.

With this system there wont be the problem of rich players outbidding everybody since all will have the same amount of points to bid so everybody will be able to push for something if they really want it.

Warth

daveywavey wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

So, of your 8-player group, if two of them were offline, you'd just say: "Awww crap. Guess we can't raid, now." Or, would you go to your guild to find two players you know could fill in? Doesn't mean it's a pug, just cos you're not with the full set of your regular group.

but what's the problem here?
Those 2 people can gladly join, but in cases like these it's important to talk through loot distribution beforehand.

Master Loot just ensures, that the previously discussed loot distribution is adhered to. No Ninja Loot Shenanigans.

If people are too socially inept, to figure out the loot distribution beforehand, then that's completely unrelated to the looting rights/system.

Master Loot isn't the only "social" loot type. Last game I played, before we started a raid, we'd talk to each other and assess each player's loot goals. If a certain player said they were there for a particular drop, and that drop came up, whoever was assigned that loot drop would give it to them. If a drop came up that no-one had wanted, then the player that was assigned it kept it.

Just cos you're not running Master Loot doesn't mean that you can't figure out loot distribution beforehand, or that you're socially inept. Grow up.

nobody has ever claimed that it's the only social system. Nobody has either said, that it should be the only one.

The 2 opinions brought forward by myself were specifically : "no personal loot, but a variety of social loot systems" and that master loot has earned a spot in the variety of social loot systems.

Social and personal loot systems are mutually exclusive.

Master loot, N/G, RR, FFA and biding systems are not. You and your group can utilize whatever you'd like.

Caeryl

Warth wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

So, of your 8-player group, if two of them were offline, you'd just say: "Awww crap. Guess we can't raid, now." Or, would you go to your guild to find two players you know could fill in? Doesn't mean it's a pug, just cos you're not with the full set of your regular group.

but what's the problem here?
Those 2 people can gladly join, but in cases like these it's important to talk through loot distribution beforehand.

Master Loot just ensures, that the previously discussed loot distribution is adhered to. No Ninja Loot Shenanigans.

If people are too socially inept, to figure out the loot distribution beforehand, then that's completely unrelated to the looting rights/system.

Master Loot isn't the only "social" loot type. Last game I played, before we started a raid, we'd talk to each other and assess each player's loot goals. If a certain player said they were there for a particular drop, and that drop came up, whoever was assigned that loot drop would give it to them. If a drop came up that no-one had wanted, then the player that was assigned it kept it.

Just cos you're not running Master Loot doesn't mean that you can't figure out loot distribution beforehand, or that you're socially inept. Grow up.

nobody has ever claimed that it's the only social system. Nobody has either said, that it should be the only one.

The 2 opinions brought forward by myself were specifically : "no personal loot, but a variety of social loot systems" and that master loot has earned a spot in the variety of social loot systems.

Social and personal loot systems are mutually exclusive.

Master loot, N/G, RR, FFA and biding systems are not. You and your group can utilize whatever you'd like.

The only way those two would be mutually exclusive is if all dropped loot was Bind on Pickup. We already know this won’t be the case for the vast majority of gear, so personal loot drops have no impact on any group’s ability to move loot around. It does however, mean people have a choice in what to do with their share of the loot.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

The only way those two would be mutually exclusive is if all dropped loot was Bind on Pickup. We already know this won’t be the case for the vast majority of gear, so personal loot drops have no impact on any group’s ability to move loot around. It does however, mean people have a choice in what to do with their share of the loot.

Personal loot isn't a great fit for Ashes.

It works in some games because when you enter an instance, you have a fairly good idea of how many boss mobs you are going to kill. The number of total drops from all boss encounters is significantly larger than the number of players present.

In Ashes, this isn't the case. A group may only get one or two boss kills in a play session - maybe even none.

This totally alters the dynamic of how loot needs to be dealt with. If the number of items of value a group got from their time together is less than the number of players present, no automated system can ever divide that in a way players are happy with.

If a game that will often see groups get less items of value drop than they have group memers leaves the distribution of those items of value up to chance, all that will do is discourage players from joining any pick up groups. On the other hand, if it is a single player that decides they want to take all the loot, that discourages players from grouping with just that one player.

Personal loot would work well for things like certificates - as groups can all but guarantee they will get exponentially more certificates than there are players in the group.

To me, Ashes needs to have a tiered system where things like certificates and other very common drops are done either as personal loot or as round robin, and individual items of actual value are treated differently.

Caeryl

Noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

The only way those two would be mutually exclusive is if all dropped loot was Bind on Pickup. We already know this won’t be the case for the vast majority of gear, so personal loot drops have no impact on any group’s ability to move loot around. It does however, mean people have a choice in what to do with their share of the loot.

Personal loot would work well for things like certificates - as groups can all but guarantee they will get exponentially more certificates than there are players in the group.

To me, Ashes needs to have a tiered system where things like certificates and other very common drops are done either as personal loot or as round robin, and individual items of actual value are treated differently.

This clipped portion is my main concern. And I agree with you. I don’t believe everyone should be getting full gear drops because in a game like Ashes, that skews the game toward farming gear over crafting gear. but I do believe materials should be generated per-player based on their gathering skill(s). Certificates (ie gold) should always be paid equally amongst players that qualify for looting rights. And full gear should have a separate system.

I still disagree that a singular loot master is the best system for distributing truly valuable full gear drops, simply because there is always inherent bias that comes from any player-led system, and people generally profess their agreement on that statement based on if they benefit from that bias or not. Personally I think every full item drop should be based on highest bid, so the benefit of that item is not limited exclusively to the player who gets it. At some point other players will have money to outbid, and guilds that want strict and total control over loot can simply not bid besides who they want to have the item.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

I still disagree that a singular loot master is the best system for distributing truly valuable full gear drops, simply because there is always inherent bias that comes from any player-led system, and people generally profess their agreement on that statement based on if they benefit from that bias or not.

I disagree that it should be a singular system as well. As I said earlier, it only works in situations where there is trust between all players present.

When there is that trust, it is by far the best system.

My personal preference for a system when there is not that same level of trust is an escrow type system.

Have all drops held in escrow inventory (basically, the game holds on to them), and then at the end of the group, allow players to bid on items that dropped.

Allow the setting of a bias towards players that are able to harvest specific materials if that is desired, and set up a system by which players that leave the group early (or are booted) are given a fair portion of what is in escrow, and you have what I consider the best system for when there isn't that trust.

My issue with personal loot will always be two fold. The first is that it straight up only works when there are more drops of any given value than there are group members (as we discussed above).

The second is that it removes the need for players to work together in relation to rewards. They can still work together, but as it is not required it will happen very infrequently (as is seens in any number of other games). I am of the opinion that players should need to work together in all aspects of grouping, from forming, to killing encounters, to distributing loot. A personal loot system does not allow for that, and so to me, it is almost as bad of a system to have in a game as an LFG system is.

Adaegus Wintermight

I'm surprised DKP didn't find it's way into your strawpoll. Though I suppose it would exist under Master Loot. In classic wow my guild is trying out an altered version of DKP called Epgdkp, where it's the basic fundamentals of DKP (the more often the raid the higher chance you have at getting loot) combined with effort points that are granted with helping the guild with tasks and sharing consumable items with guildies and showing up on time and prepared. What I described above would have to be my favorite loot system.

Noaani

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

I'm surprised DKP didn't find it's way into your strawpoll.

DKP should never be implemented in a game directly.

It should always be administered by each individual guild using it, as per how each guild wants it to be run.

VECNA

Loot Master should really be called NINJA MASTER, because it gives the person the POWER to ONLY give the LOOT to themselves and their friends. It's happen to me so many dam times in World of Warcraft.

Anyways, it seems the majority of people like the d100 Roll and I'm kinda OK with that but it should also be ROUND ROBIN. If you just WON an item you should have to wait until everyone else gets one before you can roll again. otherwise you will get a few lucky bastards that got all the items that you worked for and you get NOTHING.

Sathrago

VECNA wrote: »

Loot Master should really be called NINJA MASTER, because it gives the person the POWER to ONLY give the LOOT to themselves and their friends. It's happen to me so many dam times in World of Warcraft.

Anyways, it seems the majority of people like the d100 Roll and I'm kinda OK with that but it should also be ROUND ROBIN. If you just WON an item you should have to wait until everyone else gets one before you can roll again. otherwise you will get a few lucky bastards that got all the items that you worked for and you get NOTHING.

someone lost the hand of vecna to a pug group~

Judeth

I've already commented on the reddit post, but I'll comment here too.

I'll always feel personal loot is the best option, because from personal experience people are greedy. Rng loot distributed to everyone prevents someone from taking advantage of the system for their own gain.

I have more experience with the personal loot system than other systems, but I've even played with "friends" who will try and take advantage of other's kindness or naivety by running dungeons for drops and trying to get people to trade them the good loot, then acting like they deserve it more than others. I'd hate to play with people like that and have them be given all the power.

A bidding system will always favor the richest person in the group. Just because the other players who lose get the gold from the bet, it doesn't mean that they're actually earning as much as the item is worth. If everyone else in the party doesn't have a lot of gold to begin with, they'll be betting with chump change and the rich player won't be losing that much. Then he can just sell the item and get back more gold than he lost.

I wouldn't even trust a guild with a master loot system, unless you're in a guild that actually cares about all of their members you're not going to be earning anything by working with them. From my guild experience, they usually only care about the main group of players and all the newer members are left out. Reminds me of high school.

In a perfect world I'd choose master loot, but this world is far from perfect and the scum will make their way into AoC.

Edit: I'd prefer a personal loot system where you can choose what you want to earn from finishing the dungeon/raid/whatever. That way you don't have people mindlessly running dungeons to get the drops they want.

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