Stealth in Ashes MegaThread

Tyrantor

Maezriel wrote: »

Why compare AoC, and Rogues in general, to how they were over a decade ago? We already know AoC's rogues will have the ability to find secret areas in dungeons so they'll already be valuable in groups and Intrepid could absolutely build them w/ a strong CC kit so that they're even more desirable.

I'm just saying that even w/o full invisibility stealth rogues can still be very strong, especially when paired up w/ a strong secondary.

Although if someone went Rogue/Rogue just for full invis I don't think I'd mind that.

What do rogues do in the other 99% of PvE grouping that do not involve secret dungeon doors?

I agree completely with the rogue/rogue getting an advanced version of stealth since they would give up a substantial amount of customization.

Tragnar wrote: »

Also giving value to the ability to find secret areas is premature, because we don't know the pro/con ratio of bringing rogues to dungeon groups. It very well may be the best tactic to rush bosses thus completely negating any group benefit that rogue might bring.

This is a valid point we've already seen in multiple AoC videos where the players and groups just ran / trained the dungeon until they reached the area they wanted. I will say that the description of dungeons in AoC sound very similar to how EQ played where you go in and fight to a specific area/room in that dungeon and camp it for xp/loot. We also do not know if the secret doors are going to respawn multiple times per day or only once per day, it could very well be mostly useless if once found it offers no benefit until the door resets. So now the only benefit to bring the rogue is constantly negated by the lack of reason to bring the rogue.

fathergoose

Where did everyone's imagination go? Every comment on Rogues as a class seems to suggest there's no way to design around stealth not being frustrating garbage to fight against. That's all you think the class is, or can be?

Why?

Why can't stealth be a utility? Make abilities from stealth just be utility things, either setting up traps, shadowstepping to other targets, incaps, stuns. The real frustration is just dying from some backstab-esque burst out of nowhere with no real opportunity to fight back.

That's bad design, I don't care how much you've enjoyed being a Thief in GW2 or a Rogue in WoW or an Assassin in Age of Conan.

There's no reason though why a Rogue class couldn't bring some sort of damage reduction, control, AoE blind mechanic to make mobs miss, etc. Someone interrupting/incapping/etc. doesn't need much damage to contribute to a fight, but if they WANT to do damage, make it an option that gives them stand and fight tools like parties and such.

This isn't a binary design paradigm, there's all kinds of flexibly you can give a class without tripping and falling into "they can kill someone from stealth without a fight but nothing else well, so I guess we can't make them fun to fight against without making them unplayable".

Tyrantor

Well in theory they could make the rogue super OP without stealth - completely agree we should just argue for that.

Give the rogue 10x warrior hps, 10x mage DPS i'm sold.

fathergoose

Tyrantor wrote: »

Well in theory they could make the rogue super OP without stealth - completely agree we should just argue for that.

Give the rogue 10x warrior hps, 10x mage DPS i'm sold.

Sarcasm doesn't help game design or conversation either.

Tyrantor

Well neither does attacking our imagination. Considering your imagination apparently is just nerfing the stealth ability to do PvE gameplay or copying other class abilities like the mage teleport(shadowstep) which ultimately may be exactly what the rogue/mage ability is and if that's the case then what about stealth for the rest of the subclass(es).

The stealth is traditionally a rogue's key feature not their utility which multiple posts including yours seem to suggest it should be.

There is a purpose to the class system and once you start stripping/nerfing key features from a class there is less reason to use them.

fathergoose

Stealth is a Rogue's key feature? Not poisons? High single target burst with daggers? Lockpicking? High evasion for defense?

Stealth is just another tool in the kit, and should be treated as such. Not some lofty untouchable ideal.

Tyrantor

If stealth isn't the key feature how come all of these rogue posts are pertaining to rogues/stealth and not those other topics you think are the key features instead?

Sathrago

Stealthing, disarming traps, spotting potential hazards, and scouting in general are the core of what a rogue is. A rogue that does a ton of damage after engaging on a target? Assassin. A rogue that fights you toe to toe with hit and run tactics at times? Swashbuckler. I could rattle off the rest but that should give you the gist of what i mean.

fathergoose

Because rogues love to kill people easily from stealth and are worried that's going to be taken away from them? I don't know, I gave ideas to turn stealth into a utility instead of a source of burst, which opens up their usefulness for pve pulls, gives them power to control in pvp, and forces the devs to balance their damage out of stealth for both.

But you thought I was just nerfing the class for some reason. I want a balanced, fun experience, what exactly do these rogues want?

Tyrantor

Sathrago wrote: »

Stealthing, disarming traps, spotting potential hazards, and scouting in general are the core of what a rogue is. A rogue that does a ton of damage after engaging on a target? Assassin. A rogue that fights you toe to toe with hit and run tactics at times? Swashbuckler. I could rattle off the rest but that should give you the gist of what i mean.

Is disarming traps and spotting hazards a key feature, would the key feature of the assassin be stealth or spotting traps? Would the key feature of the swashbuckler be stealth or having a archetype with their primary class just like everyone else can?

primagoosa wrote: »

Because rogues love to kill people easily from stealth and are worried that's going to be taken away from them? I don't know, I gave ideas to turn stealth into a utility instead of a source of burst, which opens up their usefulness for pve pulls, gives them power to control in pvp, and forces the devs to balance their damage out of stealth for both.

But you thought I was just nerfing the class for some reason. I want a balanced, fun experience, what exactly do these rogues want?

This thread was posted by someone who is claiming stealth is OP not rogues crying about something being taken away from them. I'm simply making the point that the feature in the OP being worried over is arguably the key feature to playing a rogue.

Sathrago

Is disarming traps and spotting hazards a key feature, would the key feature of the assassin be stealth or spotting traps? Would the key feature of the swashbuckler be stealth or having a archetype with their primary class just like everyone else can?

Its the primary toolkit they fall back on after using the bits and bobs that comes from being an assassin or swashbuckler. So an assassin is surely built for killing other players but they still have the essence and base skills of the rogue archetype, same is applied to the rest of the classes with rogue as the primary archetype.

That is at least how I would figure they build the classes.

fathergoose

Tyrantor wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

Stealthing, disarming traps, spotting potential hazards, and scouting in general are the core of what a rogue is. A rogue that does a ton of damage after engaging on a target? Assassin. A rogue that fights you toe to toe with hit and run tactics at times? Swashbuckler. I could rattle off the rest but that should give you the gist of what i mean.

Is disarming traps and spotting hazards a key feature, would the key feature of the assassin be stealth or spotting traps? Would the key feature of the swashbuckler be stealth or having a archetype with their primary class just like everyone else can?

primagoosa wrote: »

Because rogues love to kill people easily from stealth and are worried that's going to be taken away from them? I don't know, I gave ideas to turn stealth into a utility instead of a source of burst, which opens up their usefulness for pve pulls, gives them power to control in pvp, and forces the devs to balance their damage out of stealth for both.

But you thought I was just nerfing the class for some reason. I want a balanced, fun experience, what exactly do these rogues want?

This thread was posted by someone who is claiming stealth is OP not rogues crying about something being taken away from them. I'm simply making the point that the feature in the OP being worried over is arguably the key feature to playing a rogue.

And I'm arguing it should be balanced as a feature.

Tragnar

@Sathrago
When you look at the class chart then you can see rogue-rogue archetype is called assassin.

There should be plethora of choices about how a rogue would want to open from stealth. Also any PvP player can tell you that opening from stealth with ability that is not crowd control is basically trolling or oneshotting

So far you should be overjoyed, because ashes is going to provide you with the most useless iteration of stealth from any mmo you might have played. So far stealth is a cooldown you basically want to use inside a combat to break enemy tab target and make it harder for them to aim with skillshots. However if stealth is able to be used only outside of combat, then dont worry - nobody will use 30-45s cooldown stealth that you can see from distance if you are trying to find the rogue and you are not literally blind

Sathrago

Tragnar wrote: »

@Sathrago
When you look at the class chart then you can see rogue-rogue archetype is called assassin.

I don't get what you are trying to convey here by pointing that out.

There should be plethora of choices about how a rogue would want to open from stealth. Also any PvP player can tell you that opening from stealth with ability that is not crowd control is basically trolling or oneshotting

It doesn't have to be a one shot or a hard cc. It could be the start of a rotation that you combo abilities with. For example you sneak up on the target and bonk them on the head with a sap, knocking them off balance, reducing their speed for a few seconds and giving them the dizzy condition. While this debuff is on the target you can combo it with a few other abilities that either damage, cc, or might even put you back into stealth. We don't know too much and this is all guess work on my end so anyway, my point is that there are many ways to go about designing the rogue/stealth synergy with their abilities.

So far you should be overjoyed, because ashes is going to provide you with the most useless iteration of stealth from any mmo you might have played. So far stealth is a cooldown you basically want to use inside a combat to break enemy tab target and make it harder for them to aim with skillshots.

I don't remember ever wanting stealth to be bad. Why are you saying this?

However if stealth is able to be used only outside of combat, then dont worry - nobody will use 30-45s cooldown stealth that you can see from distance if you are trying to find the rogue and you are not literally blind

I guess ill take your word on it being bad? I don't get what you are trying to tell everyone with this. How about you say what it should do instead?

Tragnar

opening with soft cc (slow/silence) or hard cc(stun, incapacitate) is basically just cc in general.

What I would honestly want is to have the current stealth work only if you are within predetermined distance, but to be completely invisible outside of it. Also some iconic backstab/ambush abilities or stun for the opener. I see rogues as squishier classes than casters, because they have always some spells that enhance their defenses in either cc category or just raw defensive stats

I honestly cant wait to see the first iterations of the archetypes in alpha, because for example rogue has only this official description (if you dont count the class inclusion that rogues can find hidden doors and treasures in dungeons)

The rogue is master of opportunity, using skill, positioning, and the environment to dish out frightening amounts of damage. In their downtime, they provide solid utility, helping their friends navigate dangers otherwise unseen.

flameh0t

Stop trying to nerf my character before it's even made

mindghosts

So as much as I am hyped for this game, the big draw-in for me will be if the classes are fun to play. Specifically rogues, as they are always my go-to archetype. I read that stealth will not grant you complete invisibility, and that's quite a bummer to me. The ability will probably be rendered useless fast since
1. people have or will gain experience to spot it easily - give players more credit, lest I'm only to attack people who are afk
2. there's probably many ways to counter invisibility regardless, at least I assume so (AoE in general helps with that, and there's plenty of that from what I've seen)
3. since the rogues usually are built around this mechanic and strong openers, if the ability is useless so will the class itself be.

Perhaps this is very hyperbolic/cynical of me, obviously I have no way of knowing for sure I'm right until we get to see it play out. But I thought it would be good to mention at the very least as something to think about. If you're very set on this aspect, please think of other ways for the rogue to make up for it. Thanks

daveywavey

Is there a megathread for these, yet?

Let me point out the most important part of your post:

mindghosts wrote: »

obviously I have no way of knowing for sure I'm right until we get to see it play out.

Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and see how it plays!

SerChubulas

I cant help but agree with you. I played stealth smuggler in SWTOR and yes I know it was a completely different game with different mechanics than this one will have but I can't imagine an archetype like that that can't fully stealth. You nailed it on point 3 IMO with the strong openers. Especially in SWTOR if you were a stealth class and didn't open with your opener no way you were going to win that fight. Which comes back to stealth needing to actually be invisible. Sounds like the current system is like active camouflage. People are going to see it and it will render them useless in PvP.

HeronMarkedSword

Stealth is quite a handy skill. It works differently for rogues and for rangers though (both should be able to use it). Reason is because one dwells in cities the other in the wilderness. But, since the environment varies, as well as the lifeforms present, the skill must also adapt to the conditions. Down-to-earthly speaking, in the game itself (taking out the principality of the ability), if you could stealth-skin have an armor skin that can camouflage in the area, you could stealth according to how well and timed you press the key (depending on the ability) and the cool-down. Time it perfectly, and you can be quite deadly.

Warth

Set Chubulas wrote: »

I cant help but agree with you. I played stealth smuggler in SWTOR and yes I know it was a completely different game with different mechanics than this one will have but I can't imagine an archetype like that that can't fully stealth. You nailed it on point 3 IMO with the strong openers. Especially in SWTOR if you were a stealth class and didn't open with your opener no way you were going to win that fight. Which comes back to stealth needing to actually be invisible. Sounds like the current system is like active camouflage. People are going to see it and it will render them useless in PvP.

sounds like SWTOR had a piss poor Rogue class design. But there is a simple solution to that, if you don't give a rogue full invisibility, don't hide most of its power behind landing your stealth opener. Crazy idea i know. How else can the game be a wow copy?

Vashramire

There are a lot of games that have the rogue/thief archetype with little to no stealth and they aren't always about strong openers. Aside from flavor what is the thing that makes stealth mandatory to some people? If it's for strong openers then wouldn't giving them a good gap closer do the same? I'm guessing this is more for PvP because I know of 0 games that actually make constant use of stealth for PvE content. Strong openers don't matter in a 5-7 min fight. In PvP honestly stealth can be a toxic ability, baiting someone to fight a friend and sneaking in midfight to make it 2v1 and such. Doesn't leave much counter play for the opponent where that tactic with a non stealth class let's the opponent decide if it's worth it to go alone, run, or get help instead of straight up ganking them and camping the area in stealth so you always have the advantage. Making everyone equally vulnerable allows for balance to be made easier without having massive power swings based on trying to balance a class around 1 skill. I could see a full stealth with limited during and a long CD working because it isn't up all the time and you have to choose to use it as an engage, disengage, or mid fight to drop target. It creates choice and balance while not being oppressive.

Shoelid

millions of these threads and yet nobody has actually seen the stealth in play

Voidwalkers

+1 for rogue stealth megathread.

Disclaimer: I mained a rogue back in vanilla wow, and have switched to main mage, warlock, priest, demon hunter in the later expansions. So I understand the joy of being able to jump someone while stealthed and combo-chain them to death, and also the frustration of getting jumped by a stealthy rogue and get stun-locked to death, or watch him cloak-of-shadow + vanish away when I've managed to fight back.

That being said, since when are "rogues" masters of total invisibility??? Hell, even ninjas don't get to be invisible. Why should rogues be able to do it? Do they carry high-tech optical camouflage like Solid Snake after you've cleared the game? Are they masters of arcane and know how to magically bend light? Are they dark templars and have psionic abilities to bend light??

No, I don't think any of the above fits the "rogue" archetype. I can agree that rogues should be "sneaky", e.g. they make no noise when they move & have a 100% hit chance when attacking from behind, may be they can control their breathing and hide their "presence" (e.g. not show up on the radar of some ranger with "track humanoids" ability on), they're probably good at camouflaging and make themselves hard to spot - but giving a rogue total invisibility and allow him to sprint across an open field undetected just feels wrong.

The current implementation for stealth feels more reasonable - hard to spot, but possible to spot if you look close enough. And the rogue should not be balanced around reliance on stealth.

And as others said, we'll have to wait and see how things play out in testings

Sathrago

I mean, Idk about you guys but i played Hots back when the stealth mechanic was basically what they showed for AoC and that crap gets really hard to spot when you in the middle of face-paced fights or just not paying full attention to your surroundings. Perhaps the current AoC stealth needs a bit of quality work but overall I feel it is a refreshing and good take on stealth.

Some players will know how to spot it. Some will not. I think that's an acceptable skill gap.

Naturally this still needs to be released for full mechanical context but I dig the predator-esque look of the stealth.

Damokles

Okay, this is from the view of someone who played APOC and who actually got to experience the stealth mechanic:

1. Are you able to spot it? Yes, after some training. Higher grafics makes it easier to see the distortion.
2. Are you able to easily keep track of someone in stealth? No, you are not. Especially if you are in combat and effects are thrown around all over the place.
3. Is it fun to stealth? Yes, it is. It is really fun to stealth around.


Some tips if they keep it the way it is:
Dont run in a straight line, keep moving in a zig-zag pattern. Try to backtrack sometimes, because that throws off many people. Dont rely on the stealth.

I think that Ashes is on a good way right now. League of Legends is currently the only game though, where I absolutely love the implementation of Stealth. You are invisible until you get too close to a target, then get a silhouette and if they close in even more the stealth is then broken.

Sathrago wrote: »

I mean, Idk about you guys but i played Hots back when the stealth mechanic was basically what they showed for AoC and that crap gets really hard to spot when you in the middle of face-paced fights or just not paying full attention to your surroundings. Perhaps the current AoC stealth needs a bit of quality work but overall I feel it is a refreshing and good take on stealth.

Some players will know how to spot it. Some will not. I think that's an acceptable skill gap.

Naturally this still needs to be released for full mechanical context but I dig the predator-esque look of the stealth.

I really preferred the old mechanic more xD
(*cough* not because I mained Valeera or anything *cough*)

Sov54

Dude, this is not WoW.

In a game with death penalties you can't afford to give a class the massive advantage of always being the one who picks when and who to fight.

Warth

Sov54 wrote: »

Dude, this is not WoW.

In a game with death penalties you can't afford to give a class the massive advantage of always being the one who picks when and who to fight.

kinda depends on how much impact having the opener has in the game. With a TTK of 5-10 seconds like in certain mmos, having the opener is a huge advantage. With a TTK of 30-60 seconds, less so.

Nagash

Go look at apoc stealth and come back

Maezriel

I think the current stealth will be fine and we still don't know if there will be anyway of increasing it through skills or specializations down the road so all of this worry could be for naught.