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Blazing the Way - Mage Alpha One Preview

13

Comments

  • Honshu wrote: »
    The forums should have an auto-reply feature that reminds players the game is still in pre-Alpha 1. ;)

    All the more reason to voice criticism early, before things start getting cemented.
    Khronus wrote: »
    The forums should have an auto-reply feature that reminds players the game is still in pre-Alpha 1. ;)

    Nah, that wouldn't be productive. The original posters comments are true and Intrepid will reflect on the feedback (especially since this viewpoint is overwhelmingly consistent). Just because we are in Alpha 1, doesn't mean our feedback should be silenced.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't voice our opinions.

    I am saying that it's too early to have a meaningful discussion of animations that are a long way (maybe years) from being polished ... especially when Steven has pre-empted game footage clips by noting animations are placeholders not in their final form.

    I'd rather annoy the shit out of the developers by constantly reminding them these animations suck, so they don't get complacent. If nobody said anything, who knows what could happen? Maybe they'd think, "Well, guess we don't need to polish these up too much, nobody said anything!?", screw that.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Merek wrote: »
    I'd rather annoy the shit out of the developers by constantly reminding them these animations suck, so they don't get complacent.
    It isn't anoying them, only other posters here.

    Telling Intrepid that you think that the thing that they have no intention of keeping is not what you would consider to be good enough is fine.

    However, others coming along and telling people that Intrepid have no intention of keeping the animations the way they are is also fine.

    Another thing that is fine is posters pointing out how often these threads come up.

  • VolgaireVolgaire Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    The only people who really get annoying is those who act as if they know what everything should be and the devs are wrong, other than that it is all feeback and even if one point gets brought up many times it should not be viewed as something bad, rather it really shows how much the community wants/does not want something.
  • The forums should have an auto-reply feature that reminds players the game is still in pre-Alpha 1. ;)

    And biting your tongue is exactly how you don't operate in a pre-alpha, alpha, beta, or any state of the game. Address it early. This isn't a matter of incomplete animations that aren't fully developed yet, these are issues in creative design.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    bot wrote: »
    The forums should have an auto-reply feature that reminds players the game is still in pre-Alpha 1. ;)

    And biting your tongue is exactly how you don't operate in a pre-alpha, alpha, beta, or any state of the game. Address it early. This isn't a matter of incomplete animations that aren't fully developed yet, these are issues in creative design.

    No, these "issues"are in the work not being done yet.

    People seem to not realize that in development of a large project like this, everything gets finished off around the same time.

    We have at least 2 years to go of class development, which means we have at least 2 years to go of animation, particle effect development and such.

    If it were done now,or if it were so close that it would be done early, that is poor project management.
  • WhitneyHagasMatsumotoWhitneyHagasMatsumoto Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think @Noaani-san is right.
    But I think the reason why so many people are worried is because they are skeptical that the animators at Intrepid Studios have a different basic policy for animation than what we imagine.

    Because of this lack of clarity, we can't reassure ourselves that each animation is okay because it's still in alpha.

    It's nonsense to make too many detailed orders at this stage, but I'd like to hear what Intrepid Studios' basic policy is for animation.
    Otherwise, we'll end up with the same old controversy every time ......😣

    I'm sorry if this has already been said in an official video or something.
    I can't listen to English, so it's hard for me to get information from the videos.😅
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 2021
    But I think the reason why so many people are worried is because they are skeptical that the animators at Intrepid Studios have a different basic policy for animation than what we imagine.
    I think the reason so many people are worried is because we are looking at animations for this game at a point that is at least 18 months earlier in development than would be the case for seeing actual in game footage for almost all other games.

    People that are worried are really just people that don't understand the process of project development, at least at this stage.

  • WhitneyHagasMatsumotoWhitneyHagasMatsumoto Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 2021
    @Noaani -san.
    Hmmm, rather than saying that they don't understand the development process, I personally think it's more accurate to say that they don't know the quality of animation 18 months before release in normal game development.

    The only thing I can compare it to is the completed animations in other games, so I'm not sure if the current state is good enough.

    At least in Japanese game development, users are never involved from such an early stage, so for me, I am at a loss due to lack of experience.😅

    I hope that when the game is released, I will be able to laugh at myself for being worried about the animations. lol

    P.S
    If you think about it, you end up saying the same thing as Noaani-san ......
    Well, I hope you'll forgive me for pursuing a more detailed expression, lol.
    We seem to be similar after all.😉
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    The only thing I can compare it to is the completed animations in other games, so I'm not sure if the current state is good enough.
    That's the thing, you are not sure because you (and most other people posting here) have absolutely nothing at all to compare animations 2 years + before release.

    The issue then is - if you have nothing to compare those animations to, why is the assumption being made that they are not good enough?

    I mean, people have nothing to compare them to, so when deciding if they are good enough or not these people are either not taking in to account the actual and absolute fact that they have no body of work to accurately compare these animations to, or they are taking that absolute fact in to consideration and actively deciding that they are going to make the assumption that the animations are not good enough.

    If you are going to make an assumption with the developers of an MMO that you are interested in - if you are in a situation where you need to make an assumption - make the assumption that the developers know better than you do.

    If you then look at the situation from that perspective, what you have is the understanding that you do not know what the animations should look like at this point in development, but the assumption and trust that the development team know what they are doing.
  • WhitneyHagasMatsumotoWhitneyHagasMatsumoto Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Noaani -san
    Haha, that's a good one. :D
    You're right.

    You're right, my point is that I don't trust the skills and knowledge of the developers!😅

    At first I thought you were sarcastic, but you're still very rational and likeable!

    If you were a little less sarcastic, you'd be perfect LOL

    No, it's a joke!
    I don't know what you think of me, but at least I have a good feeling about you.
    I'm sorry to be so abrupt, but it's my policy to be upfront about positive things.😉
  • For what I've read from people more prepared than me, there are certain ways to sell the animation, a lot of time using body mechanics in the 3d models to sell the power of hits.

    I've seen some animations that are completely off when it comes to body mechanics and the stylistic choices doesn't pay off. That's my only concern.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 2021
    Tacualeon wrote: »
    For what I've read from people more prepared than me, there are certain ways to sell the animation, a lot of time using body mechanics in the 3d models to sell the power of hits.

    I've seen some animations that are completely off when it comes to body mechanics and the stylistic choices doesn't pay off. That's my only concern.

    I'm going to try and say the same thing I have been saying for a while now, but from a different perspective.

    Go off and google initial sketches of famous artworks. Most pieces of art (paintings, sculptures, buildings, everything) have some form of initial rough sketch. Often these sketches are little more than a general layout of the painting, with little to no resemblance to the final work. These sketches do serve a purpose though - they are placeholders while the final piece is being composed - they give the artist something to work with, something to look at to see what they want to change, to see what works and what doesn't.

    Right now, people are looking at a sketch of animations and complaining that they are not up to the standard of a finished piece of art.

    Of course they aren't.
  • TacualeonTacualeon Member
    edited February 2021
    Noaani wrote: »
    I'm going to try and say the same thing I have been saying for a while now, but from a different perspective.

    Go off and google initial sketches of famous artworks. Most pieces of art (paintings, sculptures, buildings, everything) have some form of initial rough sketch. Often these sketches are little more than a general layout of the painting, with little to no resemblance to the final work. These sketches do serve a purpose though - they are placeholders while the final piece is being composed - they give the artist something to work with, something to look at to see what they want to change, to see what works and what doesn't.

    Right now, people are looking at a sketch of animations and complaining that they are not up to the standard of a finished piece of art.

    Of course they aren't.

    I understand the point you are trying to make but comparing 2d artwork, sculpture and buildings to animated 3d animation is a bad example.

    2d art don't move, over time, in a 3d space, over different 3 axis
    sculptures don't have placeholders
    Construction of building doesn't work anything like you described

    Are you serious?
    Every reasoning and word you wrote is this particular post is horribly wrong, I don't even know how to respond.

    My landlord just called me, we need to evacuate because the building seems like it's falling apart and we might be in mortal danger. I guess the structure and the fundaments in which is was built upon just didn't work 🤷‍♂️

    But what do I know, I'm just a regular dude with logic and reasoning. Art is art.
    art1.png
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Open discussion about pre-alpha animations is really difficult, because I have no idea what extent of polish is possible, and what parts of the skill are core - the parts that polish won't fix.

    I think Steven has been very explicit that particle effects and their sizes are 100% placeholder and so I am ignoring them for the most part. (except that cleric skill where the particles were shooting out, when they should have been sucking in)

    I'm also struggling to gauge the feel of the combat from stationary demonstration of the ability - and without knowledge of the wider context of the spell's use. I can't tell if the mage spells are too fast for other people to respond to, or if they're so slow that anyone can just run at you and ignore spells you cast.
    This is something that needs hands-on experience to know.

    I feel similar to WhitneyHagasMatsumoto in that I don't have much experience in seeing prototype 3rd person combat abilities partially animated in 3D - except for keyframe demonstrations of skills (which were ~3 frames per second), or basic sketches of Tarzan 2 when it was in production.

    Finally, I'm not familiar enough with Intrepid's Concept Design process - which seems to be quite different to what I've seen in League of Legend's approach (from the few videos I've seen) - particularly because we are involved so early in the design process and Intrepid does a semi-polish on the things they show to us (it's not completely raw). For example: on LoL's PBE, when they occasionally haven't settled on a skill animation, they just use a single pose for the duration of the skill as a placeholder until they have an animation they're happy with. It's much more behind closed doors compared to Intrepid's approach.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    I mean, people have nothing to compare them to, so when deciding if they are good enough or not these people are either not taking in to account the actual and absolute fact that they have no body of work to accurately compare these animations to, or they are taking that absolute fact in to consideration and actively deciding that they are going to make the assumption that the animations are not good enough.

    There is nothing to compare them to because they suck. It is plain to see they suck. It is fine they suck at this point but if IS thinks they can simply polish these animations they are wrong. The animations suck and the animations need to be changed before they are polished.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Tacualeon wrote: »
    2d art don't move, over time, in a 3d space, over different 3 axis
    sculptures don't have placeholders
    Construction of building doesn't work anything like you described
    Every analogy is flawed if you look deep enough in to it - the point of an analogy is to provide people with something similar so they better understand what is being said, not to give them an exact model.

    And yes, some buildings are designed off of rough sketches first. Not the engineering aspects of the buildings design, but the aesthetics of it - which are often what is first conceived when designing (specifically) public buildings. Almost every purpose built art gallery in the world started it's life as a rough sketch.

    As to how the sketch notion works with animations - as with many paintings and sculptures, they are placeholders. They are there right now to ensure the over all thing (the entirety of the character, model, skins, animations, particle effects, movement etc) work together.

    Perhaps another analogy for you would be stand-ins for actors on movie sets. They are there to ensure the composition of the shot is correct - the lighting, the frame, the movement of the camera - yet there is no intention for the stand in to ever be on film.

  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited February 2021
    @Noaani it doesn't matter if the game have 10 years left in development. They decided to make a video (which is great and they should do more) showing off the animation of a lvl 1-10 mage. We then have the opportunity to both criticise and/or praise them.

    We are not here to say that everything they are doing is perfect. We are here because we want this game to be perfect, and if someone thinks something is off, like animations, then that should be brought up and discussed. It's then up to the developers to either take that criticism and make changes or ignore it and follow what they think its best.

    So please stop with the "the game is not done yet", we know that, and that is why we give this criticism now when the developers still have time to change things.
  • The only people who really get annoying is those who act as if they know what everything should be and the devs are wrong, other than that it is all feeback and even if one point gets brought up many times it should not be viewed as something bad, rather it really shows how much the community wants/does not want something.

    I feel that the fearless staff in the forum will not change for the sake of making the game better. I saw a staff member’s reply before and he said so. I have been in this industry for ten years, and I am also the former excellent one. In this way, I will not learn new things to look at in the future, I just feel that what I am learning at present is perfect and able to cope with the current situation, even if your idea is better than him, it is just useless to him. That’s it, they don’t want to learn and think about how to change in the future
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 2021
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    @Noaani it doesn't matter if the game have 10 years left in development. They decided to make a video (which is great and they should do more) showing off the animation of a lvl 1-10 mage. We then have the opportunity to both criticise and/or praise them.
    Two points.

    First, they weren't specifically showing off the animations.

    Second, I never said people cant criticize them.

    If you read what I have been saying, across a half dozen threads over the last few months, you would see that I am saying that sharing your opinion is fine, just be aware that the animations as we see them are not intended to make it to the final game.

    I'd you read what I am saying, you will also note that I have said several times across those same threads that the reason I am adding what I am to the threads in question is largely for people that are reading, but not posting. These people need to know that it is not all doom and gloom, and that the animations literally everyone is complaining about are simply not intended to make it to the final game.

    That is what I am saying. That is literally ALL I am saying.

    You telling me to stop saying "the game isn't done yet" is the same as me saying "stop complaining about the animations" - which is straight up not something I have said, nor something I would say.

    Now, you tell me which part of the above you take issue with.
  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited February 2021
    Two points

    First, yes they were showing off the mage abilities and it's animation.

    Two, you are saying that people should not comment on things just because they are not finished. (No feedback during development)

    "and that the animations literally everyone is complaining about are simply not intended to make it to the final game." @Noaani

    There, you said it again.

    If you were to write and essay, and you sent the first draft to an editor (or what to call them), and he or she said that everything is perfect and he or she have nothing to comment about. Then how would you know that something is bad or not? Nothing is perfect, and small things need to be addressed as well.

    And what most people is complaining about (from my understanding) is the direction of the animation direction, and not the animation it self.

    Finally, you don't need to remind people that the game is still in development, we know that. And if someone don't, then that's not your problem but the person its selfs problem.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 2021
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Two, you are saying that people should not comment on things just because they are not finished. (No feedback during development)
    I'm SPECIFICALLY not saying that.

    I am saying sure, share your opinions, just be aware that what we see now is a work in progress.

    More to the point, I seem to be defending the fact that passing on actual information is an ok thing to do, which is a situation I find to be both odd and infuriating.

    There is very rarely a time to criticize someone for saying something that is objectively true, and those rare times absolutely do not happen on a forum about an MMO.

    Literally my first post in this thread.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Telling Intrepid that you think that the thing that they have no intention of keeping is not what you would consider to be good enough is fine.
    Again, what the fuck is your problem?
  • ariatrasariatras Member, Founder
    edited February 2021
    Just curious, what exactly makes you think anyone is unaware that this is not what it will look like in the final product? @Noaani ?

    It didn't read like that to me. I have criticised the animations several times. In full knowledge that it is hardly the final product. But this -is- the time to give feedback. So they can adjust in a desirable direction.

    Repeating "It's just alpha, it's not the final product" doesn't help anyone, least of all Intrepid.
    l8im8pj8upjq.gif


  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 2021
    ariatras wrote: »
    Just curious, what exactly makes you think anyone is unaware that this is not what it will look like in the final product?

    Nothing.

    But as I have said, I am making sure these comments are here for people that are reading, not posting.

    Even if literally everyone knows this actual objective fact, there is still no harm in restating it. I mean, with how many of these threads are out there, people can't exactly complain about repeating the same thing to those of us saying the animations aren't in their final form unless they are also saying the same thing to the people starting up these threads.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Two, you are saying that people should not comment on things just because they are not finished. (No feedback during development)
    I'm SPECIFICALLY not saying that.

    I am saying sure, share your opinions, just be aware that what we see now is a work in progress.

    More to the point, I seem to be defending the fact that passing on actual information is an ok thing to do, which is a situation I find to be both odd and infuriating.

    There is very rarely a time to criticize someone for saying something that is objectively true, and those rare times absolutely do not happen on a forum about an MMO.

    Literally my first post in this thread.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Telling Intrepid that you think that the thing that they have no intention of keeping is not what you would consider to be good enough is fine.
    Again, what the fuck is your problem?

    My problem is that it seems you don't want people to criticise intrepid, even though it needs to be pointed out to them. If no one says it and we just let them blindly continue, then how would they know when something may be a little off?

    When you work on something everyday for several months and even years, it can be hard to spot things that is bad. That is why they have alphas and betas, so people can test and look at the game and comment, praise and give them valuable criticism.

    Yes it's a fact that the game is not done yet, but that is why we should give them the feedback now and not after the game is finished.

    Back to my essay example. First draft of an essay is sent to a person for reading, that person will then comment and give valuable feedback. Even on the small things that will to a 99% chance get changed. But the person want the essay to be as good as it can be, so he or she criticise it knowing it will be changed and hopefully better.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 2021
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    My problem is that it seems you don't want people to criticise intrepid, even though it needs to be pointed out to them. If no one says it and we just let them blindly continue, then how would they know when something may be a little off?
    Again, for the THIRD time in a row, I specifically said it is fine - good even - to say what you think about the animations.

    Quote me where I said otherwise.

    What I have been saying is that while it is fine to say you think the animations need work, do so knowing that Intrepid know this (there is a reason they are hiring animation staff), and also do so knowing that others like myself will follow those comments up with the objective fact that Intrepid have no intention of using the animations as they are now, so that others coming to the thread later on can see that this is the case as they may not be aware of it.

    I have also interspersed the above with the occasional analogy or other way to try and help people what is going on - though I probably could have said exactly what I think is going on - which is that the animations as we see them now were not made by the actual animation team, as they have not yet been hired. Rather, the animations as we see them were likely thrown together in order to test the character models (a situation that calls for a large range of movement), and were also likely made by someone familiar with character animation, but not fully proficient in it (likely Bacon, as he is a bit of a jack-of-all-trades).

    Assuming this is true, every aspect of the animations we have seen so far will be thrown out when the animation team gets up and running.

    Tying that to your essay analogy, you are commenting on the content of the essay when really all you have in front of you is a test page that was printed off while the printer was being set up, and the student hasn't even been enrolled in the paper yet. As I've said though, if you want to complain about that, have at it - just be aware of the parameters around the thing you are complaining about, and be aware that I will remind you of them.

  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited February 2021
    "The issue then is - if you have nothing to compare those animations to, why is the assumption being made that they are not good enough?"

    "Right now, people are looking at a sketch of animations and complaining that they are not up to the standard of a finished piece of art.

    Of course they aren't."

    "While I agree with your general sentiment, I do have to say that at this point in development, that is exactly how they should look."
    (From another post about animation).

    From what you have written, i get the impression that your only argument that the animations (the style and general direction of the animation) is not perfect is that it's still i alpha. Which is not an argument.

    We all know it's in alpha, but that doesn't mean that the general direction if the animation is already laid out on paper. Animators doesn't animate out of their ass, they have guidelines that they follow. And from what I have read, people are worried that these guidelines may be flawed.

    So, instead of saying, well animation is good enough and we shouldn't complain since the game is still in alpha, you should add your subjective opinions about the animations add what you would like to see changed or not changed. You should not be here to defend intrepid, but rather to criticise and praise them for what they are doing and showing us.
  • And what @maouw did was perfect. Instead of starting a new discussion, he linked a previous post and talked about topic in great detail.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    From what you have written, i get the impression that your only argument that the animations (the style and general direction of the animation) is not perfect is that it's still i alpha. Which is not an argument.
    If I were to make an argument, that argument would be that Intrepid don't have their animation team on staff yet, so literally nothing we are looking at in terms of animations have any chance of being in the finished game.

    I am specifically not pushing that point because that literally kills the possibility of discussion.

    While animators do indeed follow guidelines - as is the case for any developer on a project - they only follow those guidelines when they are hired. That step has not yet happened, so the guidelines are likely not even written up yet, let alone being followed.

    Also, all three of the quotes of mine above are me framing the point. Not one of them is saying that the person shouldn't share their opinions, just that they should be aware of some of the details about the thing they are sharing an opinion on.

    In order, the first quote was pointing out that it isn't fair to compare unfinished animations to finished animations (or unfinished anything to finished anything).

    The second was again pointing out that it isn't fair to compare unfinished to finished - this time in the context of an analogy.

    The third is again saying that the animations should not look finished at this point in development.

    ---

    What it seems to me is that you aren't actually reading full posts, just select excerpts from them - and are then deciding to form an opinion on them. You seem to think I am saying people shouldn't be sharing their opinion on the animations, despite me saying repeatedly that they should, they just need to be aware of where the game is in development.
  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited February 2021
    Noaani wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    From what you have written, i get the impression that your only argument that the animations (the style and general direction of the animation) is not perfect is that it's still i alpha. Which is not an argument.
    If I were to make an argument, that argument would be that Intrepid don't have their animation team on staff yet, so literally nothing we are looking at in terms of animations have any chance of being in the finished game.

    I am specifically not pushing that point because that literally kills the possibility of discussion.

    While animators do indeed follow guidelines - as is the case for any developer on a project - they only follow those guidelines when they are hired. That step has not yet happened, so the guidelines are likely not even written up yet, let alone being followed.

    Also, all three of the quotes of mine above are me framing the point. Not one of them is saying that the person shouldn't share their opinions, just that they should be aware of some of the details about the thing they are sharing an opinion on.

    In order, the first quote was pointing out that it isn't fair to compare unfinished animations to finished animations (or unfinished anything to finished anything).

    The second was again pointing out that it isn't fair to compare unfinished to finished - this time in the context of an analogy.

    The third is again saying that the animations should not look finished at this point in development.

    ---

    What it seems to me is that you aren't actually reading full posts, just select excerpts from them - and are then deciding to form an opinion on them. You seem to think I am saying people shouldn't be sharing their opinion on the animations, despite me saying repeatedly that they should, they just need to be aware of where the game is in development.

    I won't disagree with the fact that I sometimes read half of a post or read it "sloppy". But I also think that just saying that criticism is okay but then continue to say that everything is fine since it's in alpha just seems weird to me. It's in alpha since it's not fine/done, even though the developers know it's not done we should still in a respectful manner comment on it and give the feedback.

    "that argument would be that Intrepid don't have their animation team on staff yet, so literally nothing we are looking at in terms of animations have any chance of being in the finished game."

    This is not an subjective opinion about the animation, it's an objective opinion that everyone agree with.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    But I also think that just saying that criticism is okay but then continue to say that everything is fine since it's in alpha just seems weird to me.

    Not as odd as the "I know it's alpha, stop reminding me, I just want to complain about something" that is basically what a good number of posters in these threads want them to be.

    Fact is, the game is in alpha, the animations as we see them now are not going to end up in the game, give your feedback as to why you don't like them, know for a fact they will be changed and move on.
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