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No jumping puzzles. I am serious.

MahesMahes Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
I play Guildwars 2. There is a lot that they did right with that game. However having played enough of the game, there is one idea I do not want in this game.

I do not like the jumping puzzles that permeate throughout the game. I play games like these to compete either against computer or human opponents. I hate exact precision jumping just to get to an area for a chest or mount. Jumping is fine if the jumping is easy to do. Having to scale something only then to fall off because the mouse did not stay in that little pixel area is frustrating and not fun.

Please do not put jumping puzzles into this game. Concentrate on balancing encounters not terrain.
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Comments

  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I'm also not a fan of precision platforming in mmorpgs, mostly because the animations and timing you typically see in mmorpgs are so different to platformers. The result is that jumping in say GW2 feels so clunky and awkward compared to jumping in Super Mario.
    Wandering Mist

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  • StretchStretch Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'm looking forward to them myself.

    I get what you were saying about GW2. I personally liked most of them but there were a few where by the end I didn't think "yay! I completed it!" and instead thought "I'm never coming back here again". A lot of that came down to mechanics and it felt like they were designed for a Human / Sylvari body type and if you played a Norn or Asura, you were screwed.

    An example of this would be the "Not So Secret" jumping puzzle. It had everything wrong with it. Disc's that were supposed to push you to the next platform but instead would randomly push you further or shorter causing you to die or terrain collision not matching up with ledges which would make you fall to your death.

    It's really just about how its implemented. I just like the idea of stumbling across a Landmark from a civilization gone by and it being some sort of jumping puzzle that I have to figure out how to traverse through.

    I can see it being a problem in dungeons if a person isn't a big fan of them and I wouldn't want someone in my group to feel they are holding others back if they can't make a jump. So maybe it could be a case that 2 people would have to make it across to let down a bridge / ladder for others to cross or have some way to help others cross a jump.

    but overall I think they can be fun!
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I love jumping puzzles! But they shouldn't be for content players have to do to be competitive. It should just be for fun and perhaps a small reward at most.
  • There's got to be others out there, but the only game I've personally seen this work in was SWTOR.

    To use SWG by comparison, it was often the case that your character could (and often would, as yours truly learned by looking at other players' screenshots of my player-events) show up in a slightly different physical location than what your own game was reporting you at - even if just by a couple of feet. To remedy this, whenever hosting guild meetings, I'd usually run into a wall for 5 seconds straight, then walk to where I would be standing - producing a MUCH more universally-reported position, for my character.

    Yours truly doesn't mind jumping puzzles, though. As frustrating as they can be, it *feels* like an accomplishment, having gotten to the end!




  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2021
    If we approach this from a general design perspective, jump quests have a primary purpose:
    To train the population's jump skills to a higher level - so it can be used as a mechanic elsewhere in the game.

    If certain bosses are going to have abilities that challenge our jumping skills - I'm all for jump quests. (And I like this idea)

    If jump quests exist in and of themselves, I agree with Wandering Mist that they are way clunky in 3D 3rd person games. (Whereas jump quests work really well in Maplestory not just because it's a 2D platformer, but also because there are inertial systems in place, which adds a whole layer of technical skill to jumping - somewhat similar to super mario's inertia system. I LOVE INERTIA.)
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I could just play "n+" or "Bloody Trap Land" if I was in the mood for some precision jumping. I don't play MMOs expecting or wanting to deal with jump puzzles.

    Unfortunately they seem to pop up in MMOs for no reason. I think they already showed that they had jump puzzles in the alpha.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I could just play "n+" or "Bloody Trap Land" if I was in the mood for some precision jumping. I don't play MMOs expecting or wanting to deal with jump puzzles.

    Unfortunately they seem to pop up in MMOs for no reason. I think they already showed that they had jump puzzles in the alpha.

    Yours truly also seems to recall a video wherein the party had just navigated through the rest of the dungeon, and were moving up into position to attack the final boss. This required jumping over lava-filled crags in the dungeon's floor - what MMO players fondly refer to as the "floor boss", or a "bridge boss", if a bridge has gaps in it.

    Heheh - again, I enjoy jumping puzzles and mechanics, so you'll get no complaints out of me!



  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    At 6:00


    12:00


    26:00
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I'm not the biggest fan of jumping puzzles, but I am all for them as long as they either aren't mandatory, or are used as a training device for a specific mechanic that is used on several encounters.

    If they are not mandatory (which is a status that is decided by the players, not the developers), then they serve as a distraction/break in doing the same thing over and over again. It is never a bad thing for there to be a number of things in the game that players can do when they have some down time if they decide, but don't feel a specific need to do.

    Even though I am not a fan myself, I am hoping to see a few in Ashes for exactly this reason, as well as other activities that players can just go and "do" if they want.

    As to the ones in GW2, I never felt that movement in general in that game was very good. When I played at launch, I would look for a specific spot on the ground and attempt to have my character stop right on it (I do this in the first play session of all MMO's I play). I was never able to get the exact spot in GW2. I would get next to it, I would stop just short or go to long, but never quite where I was actually stopping the character.

    No idea if it's better or worse now, but character movement at release in that game was shockingly inaccurate. If you are implementing jumping puzzles, this is something you need to get right
  • MoGodMoGod Member
    edited January 2021
    I am not a fan of them but I have been playing Immortals Fenyx Rising and it has a lot of jumping puzzles in it so I have been getting a lot of practice so bring them on I'm ready. GW2 was actually pretty easy as far as jumping puzzles go.

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  • I love jump puzzles. Yeah if done poorly or without regard for potential location desyncs (which should be addressed throughout the entire game), they can be frustrating, but it the kind of thing that leaves you elated and relieved to have done it successfully.
  • Perhaps there will not be jumping puzzles per see, but we already have confirmation on terrain being scalable for ambushes and stuff like that. The example given by Steven was a massive stone arch over a sea cove where you jump down onto an unsuspecting enemy ship to pirate.

    Would you consider this sort of thing a "jumping puzzle" if you have to figure out ways to scale it for an advantage like the above example?
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    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    There will be jumping puzzles. I am serious.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Template:Jumping_puzzles
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  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Perhaps there will not be jumping puzzles per see, but we already have confirmation on terrain being scalable for ambushes and stuff like that. The example given by Steven was a massive stone arch over a sea cove where you jump down onto an unsuspecting enemy ship to pirate.

    Would you consider this sort of thing a "jumping puzzle" if you have to figure out ways to scale it for an advantage like the above example?
    I don't consider having terrain that is traversable to be a jump puzzle. I consider putting a trinket atop a massive tower with a bunch of jumps to figure out and execute a jump puzzle. It only serves the purpose of doing it once, and it is the "La Croix" of fun the first time you do it. Which is the peak fun it has.

    I like being able to get up and down ledges, but jumping from rock to rock to save time. It is natural and useful.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Don't make jumping puzzles mandatory to get into content:
    So I just recently got back into playing GW2 and have been joining my guild for fractal runs (they are like small short dungeons). The first time I did one, about halfway through, a mandatory jumping puzzle was implemented in order to get to the next level. We cleared every mob and it was just a matter of jumping. I did not finish it. I have run weekly fractals with them. I think I've only ever finished one jumping puzzle in all those runs. Luckily they have a self-kill system which will teleport you to a checkpoint for when someone does make it to the top, so /gg from me cause ya boy aint making it.

    But jumping puzzles were a fun distraction for vistas and such:

    On the other hand I didn't mind doing jumping puzzles when it was on my own time and pace and I was in the mood for it. I've always seen stuff like this as side functions, not main functions. When they are turned into a main function it feels like those games that start adding in mandatory skating/wall jumping/gun shooting/ship flying when all I want to do is kill some heartless.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Perhaps there will not be jumping puzzles per see, but we already have confirmation on terrain being scalable for ambushes and stuff like that. The example given by Steven was a massive stone arch over a sea cove where you jump down onto an unsuspecting enemy ship to pirate.

    Would you consider this sort of thing a "jumping puzzle" if you have to figure out ways to scale it for an advantage like the above example?
    I don't consider having terrain that is traversable to be a jump puzzle. I consider putting a trinket atop a massive tower with a bunch of jumps to figure out and execute a jump puzzle. It only serves the purpose of doing it once, and it is the "La Croix" of fun the first time you do it. Which is the peak fun it has.

    I like being able to get up and down ledges, but jumping from rock to rock to save time. It is natural and useful.

    Fair enough I just thought I would ask lol.
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    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • Love them. Holocrons hunting in SWTOR was lot of fun for me. So were the collectibles in Rift. Heck, one thing I remember the most of my short time in Lineage 2 was trying to get to the highest point on the map with the click to move mechanic. I still have a log of the coordinates taken on the place I climbed.

    Even if there are not any put in the game, I'll try to access lots of places by jumping anyway. A cool screenshot is enough of a reward for me.
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  • ChimeChime Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I love jumping puzzles, I played GW2 for years and it was always fun and (frustrating) to complete each one. Some I never went back to but it's so satisfying when you do finish it. Not all JP's aren't meant to be mind numbingly easy. Tip: Always take a Mesmer (portal jumper) to JP's in Guild Wars 2 lol
    "Bravery only means something to those who are afraid of death."
  • HellfarHellfar Member
    edited January 2021
    I absolutely love jumping puzzles. Arenanet has done an amazing job on them in GW2 in my opinion. The whole idea behind it was genius.

    Anyone that has played WoW has most likely tried to wall jump up a mountainside, make the trek to the summit of Ironforge via Loch Modan or tried to enter Mount Hyjal's "no man's land" prior to Cataclysm via Winterspring. This was the stone age of jumping puzzles, created by the player base, and later games let it evolve.

    I think the concept itself works well in MMO's, and it's really just the learning curve to get used to. And yeah, I agree that maybe certain rewards shouldn't be gated by puzzles (such as PvP or PvE rewards), and maybe have it geared more towards raw goods or QoL items such as dyes, optional currencies, achievements etc.

    I think minor puzzles are totally fine in dungeons, such as pitfalls, elevator bosses, boobie traps etc. I've always enjoyed the added entertainment it brings to dungeon runs.

    Lastly, I like to think they are just another aspect of the game that is a win-win for both parties (more fun content for players, and another lane of creativity for designers).
  • There will be jumping puzzles. I am serious.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Template:Jumping_puzzles

    Hadn't seen this before, as for some reason, it kind of feels like a lot of the Wiki doesn't link to other parts of the Wiki in the way it should. When looking for something specific there, however, the search option's been performing quite good!


  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Guild wars 2 flash backs
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • To be honest... if I wanted jumping puzzles, I would play a platformer. GW2 went way over the top with jumping puzzles in my opinion.
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  • ChimeChime Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2021
    @Samson My guess they went 'overboard' is because in GW1 you couldn't jump -at all- and people constantly complained about it. So I feel like it was an ...okay you want to jump? HERE. lol
    "Bravery only means something to those who are afraid of death."
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Samson wrote: »
    To be honest... if I wanted jumping puzzles, I would play a platformer. GW2 went way over the top with jumping puzzles in my opinion.

    Over the top is an understatement some of the items you had to level up where locked behind jumping puzzles and I hatted it
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    What a silly thing to have a conversation about. I think we are all so bored with waiting for this game that we really have people discussing if we should or should not have jumping puzzles. If you have a game and are able to jump, why not add in some lame jumping puzzles for people to entertain themselves with? I'm not even a fan of them but wouldn't mind trying them out just to see the land from new heights (or even in a freehold). Don't give achievements, don't make them extremely hard....just allow people to jump onto a platform and keep going. Walk passed it if you don't want to participate.

    Platforming is one of the original gaming concepts and is some amazing content for minimal work.
  • MarcetMarcet Member
    edited January 2021
    I love jumping puzzles, I am serious.

    If you can't do them, then you don't get the reward, and someone skilled enough will get it. That's how it works.
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Khronus wrote: »
    What a silly thing to have a conversation about. I think we are all so bored with waiting for this game that we really have people discussing if we should or should not have jumping puzzles.

    I mean, it's as valid a conversation to have compared to any other implemented system. It's been in the back of my mind since Margaret kept falling to her doom during the livestream
    Marcet wrote: »
    If you can't do them, then you don't get the reward, and someone skilled enough will get it. That's how it works.

    This might work for a single player reward, but not really in a party setting. For example, if you need to jump to enter a dungeon and your priest falls to their doom, woosh, there goes your reward too.

  • cyanideinsanitycyanideinsanity Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter
    edited January 2021
    While I do love them, I won't disagree about GW2 and an overabundance of puzzles. In particular I love that some of GW2's vista Points of interest were jumping puzzles.

    I can also see a use as an optional route in a dungeon. One that forgoes some encounters but perhaps makes the boss more challenging? Just a quick thought. Jumping puzzles definitely need care put into their location and not just copy paste.
  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited January 2021
    Uhh, I personally love jumping puzzles and your using of GW2 as some kind of example against them is baffling to me.

    Especially because they are optional outside a few things like some fractals having platforming.
    Jamation wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    If you can't do them, then you don't get the reward, and someone skilled enough will get it. That's how it works.

    This might work for a single player reward, but not really in a party setting. For example, if you need to jump to enter a dungeon and your priest falls to their doom, woosh, there goes your reward too.

    How is that any different than your priest failing to move out of the fire before he dies in a raid boss, or your priest not dodging the lava tidal wave by not moving to the right spot in time to avoid it, or not jumping over the flame blast correctly.

    This whole conversation just seems silly. Are we really arguing for a game without a jump? Because that's essentially what's happening here.
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Uhh, I personally love jumping puzzles and your using of GW2 as some kind of example against them is baffling to me.

    Especially because they are optional outside a few things like some fractals having platforming.
    Jamation wrote: »
    Marcet wrote: »
    If you can't do them, then you don't get the reward, and someone skilled enough will get it. That's how it works.

    This might work for a single player reward, but not really in a party setting. For example, if you need to jump to enter a dungeon and your priest falls to their doom, woosh, there goes your reward too.

    How is that any different than your priest failing to move out of the fire before he dies in a raid boss, or your priest not dodging the lava tidal wave by not moving to the right spot in time to avoid it, or not jumping over the flame blast correctly.

    This whole conversation just seems silly. Are we really arguing for a game without a jump? Because that's essentially what's happening here.


    I'm not the OP, I never said I wanted there to be no jumping puzzles, my original post actually said I like them when they are done well and in the right scenario.

    The difference between a person not dodging boss mechanics vs not jumping is a matter of situation. If the player is fighting a boss it is expected they might die and they can learn from their mistakes and can avoid the lava wave when they see the markers/boss movements that it's coming. For jumping puzzles there isn't much you can do except just keep trying due to the mechanical limitations of how we can control our character.

    And my post literally mentions that I don't think they were appropriate in fractals, but I liked them when clearing vistas. Again, they have a time and place.

    If jumping puzzles are to be a thing I'd rather them be something fun rather than a gatekeeping mechanic. Like I said before, when you start adding in more and more things to prevent the player from even starting content it starts to get silly. Unless the dungeon gave up a lot of other mechanics and focused solely on jumping puzzles throughout, such as a wind guardian temple or something where it would make sense, it just seems unnecessary.
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