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PvX - is this really going to work?
Kaminaris
Member
AoC is one of these games I look forward to and check news frequently. However i do have some concerns about PvX (PvE - PvP) system that is suppose to be core part of the game.
Coming from various online games I have a feeling that there are not too much (proportionally) players that do enjoy both types of gameplay.
I was pretty excited when I heard about AoC because I do like both.
However, I gave it a bit more thought...
1. Since there won't be just one big server nothing will stop community to split up depending on type of content they prefer, I suspect a lot of questions on forum: "Guys I mainly do PvP, which server should I pick?"
2. For more PvE oriented players, getting ganked too frequently will either make them change servers or completely quit the game.
3. If community does end up splitting (making informed decisions on which server to chose) trying to PvP on server that has majority of non-combatants is going to end up really frustrating experience and vice versa.
4. Usually you don't pick randomly servers, you pick the servers where your friends are (or want to be). So for example, despite my preferences I will simply playe where my friends will go and most of them prefer PvE.
Just to be clear - I think on paper it is good idea (PvX) but it makes me think that it doesn't take into consideration human nature.
Just to be clear 2 - completely separating it would just make this game a clone of another mmo so that won't be a solution either.
I suspect some of you may think:
"No this won't be a problem" - maybe not at the beginning of game but in the longer run, it probably will, like it happened in lots of games.
So what are your thoughts? What would you do when community ends up splitting?
Coming from various online games I have a feeling that there are not too much (proportionally) players that do enjoy both types of gameplay.
I was pretty excited when I heard about AoC because I do like both.
However, I gave it a bit more thought...
1. Since there won't be just one big server nothing will stop community to split up depending on type of content they prefer, I suspect a lot of questions on forum: "Guys I mainly do PvP, which server should I pick?"
2. For more PvE oriented players, getting ganked too frequently will either make them change servers or completely quit the game.
3. If community does end up splitting (making informed decisions on which server to chose) trying to PvP on server that has majority of non-combatants is going to end up really frustrating experience and vice versa.
4. Usually you don't pick randomly servers, you pick the servers where your friends are (or want to be). So for example, despite my preferences I will simply playe where my friends will go and most of them prefer PvE.
Just to be clear - I think on paper it is good idea (PvX) but it makes me think that it doesn't take into consideration human nature.
Just to be clear 2 - completely separating it would just make this game a clone of another mmo so that won't be a solution either.
I suspect some of you may think:
"No this won't be a problem" - maybe not at the beginning of game but in the longer run, it probably will, like it happened in lots of games.
So what are your thoughts? What would you do when community ends up splitting?
1
Comments
There are going to be a large amount of combatant players on every server. I don't see any servers having a majority-focused PvE community. If that ever happened, the server would just die in the end since the world will practically require you to PvP if you want to experience any of the PvE content other than just farming boars.
In the end, the game is being built for players who like BOTH types of content. In the long term, these players will make up the majority of the player base. Remember that Ashes isn't trying to be the biggest MMO by any means, but rather they are trying to be the best at what they know they can do.
As to your points.
1. As explained above that kind of split will be almost impossible to do well and sustain. Servers will have a healthy mix of PvE and PvP focused players.
2. Then it means that AoC is not the game for them. Games don’t need to cater to everyone... that is often how you end up catering to no one.
3. See point 1. Also, there are many other ways to PvP aside from the combatant/non-combatant system. There will be caravans, node wars, guild wars etc.
4. Have fun with your friends and once again see point 1.
It's best to throw away your preconceived notions of other MMOs as a PvE player or PvP player, and think of AoC as a new experience of a truly PvX game.
PvP enthusiasts have been forced into PvE for years. They really don't mind it at all.
The only crowd you really drive away with that concept is those on the far end of the "pve only" spectrum. Which are players you really don't need nor want in the game that Ashes is aspiring to be.
Are they actually listening when the watch the streams or youtube videos?
Ashes' identity is extremely clear and everyone on the forums, youtube and elsewhere is extremely clear on what AoC is.
Many see nice graphics and they're thinking "yes, a wow with good graphics", or create issues out of nowhere.
I started MMOing with EQ1 back in 1999. Love the game but had never PvPed before. Dark Age of Camelot dropped and I bought it because of Norse Mythology. Been PvPing ever since. People may buy Ashes for what ever reason but why they stay or leave is what really matters.
I agree with everyone saying that the only group that will really be turned off from ashes will be pve only-refuse to engage in pvp type players. So ignoring that group, let's run through your scenario.
Let's say you had an individual who wants to be primarily pve focused. They go to the forum to find out what server to join. One server has more pvp players than pve players, so all of the drops from the pve players running the dungeons are actually MORE valuable because there are firstly less pve players to run those dungeons and secondly more pvp players(who aren't running these dungeons themselves) buying those drops. (Less supply, More demand)
This means that someone who wants to primarily focus on pve will make more money on a server focused on pvp. So like I said in the beginning, the systems of ashes should create a natural balance. Rather than everyone wanting to split up it should encourage people to want to be on the same server as opposite type players.
Going the opposite way, if a server was dominated by pve players then gear would be super cheap for pvp players. (More supply, Less demand).
Ignoring price. If there are less pve players on a server that means there is less competition for dungeons and raids if I join. If there are less pvp players on a server that means I can have a larger impact if I am a pvp player.
So perhaps I'm wrong in my thoughts, but I'm hoping the systems of ashes create a balance just like an economy would have.
1. I know how PvX works however profit does not come before friends. People tend to play with their friends or with community that suits their interests the most.
I don't think this even can be debated. It is similar situation that WoW is facing right now with their faction "balance". When I first started playing I did not chose server, I did not chose faction. I simply went where my friend were playing.
This is mmo game that is suppose to make you play with others. As in other topic, you are not suppose to play solo so expecting that community will split evenly by itself is kinda naive.
2. Even if AoC puts focus on both PvE and PvP it is also naive to think that everyone playing the game will be equally interested in both. You can't prevent people to play it because they don't like to pvp.
For example my main focus is PvE (70%) but I do like good, larger scale pvp (30%). Maybe would like it even more if games i played had more engaging pvp. The thing is ganking is gigantic turn off (like winning a race against person on wheelchair), duels, small group arenas are boring for me.
This is what I was saying I think is wishful thinking. Everyone will try this game, not only people like me that are interested in both. And I fear that one group (probably PvE one) is going to be a much larger population than the other.
And that is not really the case if we look this https://pl.ashesofcreation.wiki/PvX
"Some servers may be more PvP focused than others.[3]"
This also means that some server may be more focused on PvE than others and ultimately it will be up to community to decide.
Just to be clear I am not saying it completely won't work, I am just concerned about community balance because of severe penalties upon death. To put it simply, if risk will far outweigh the reward (and that is the case for more PvE focused players) they will seek out "workarounds".
It will work for a well rounded player who wants everything to be both rewarding and challenging.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
There are no penalties upon death for objective-based events (e.g. caravans, guild wars, node sieges). The penalties for dying otherwise are not too bad unless you're corrupted from killing non-combatants. The minor penalties can even be further mitigated by carrying less gatherables and processed goods.
I am getting a feeling that people dont really read my posts
So I am going to write simple list to feed your thought:
1. Everyone will try the game, PvE, PvP, PvX, Casual, Hardcore etc. type of players
2. Usual thought process is to play where friends are or to find yourself community/server that shares your interests
3. But you won't be seeking a place where the type of gameplay you prefer is not happening
4. It is in human nature to seek the path of least resistance
5. If the risk will far outweigh reward, you won't be participating or actively seek to avoid participation
But that literally disincentive gathering materials. And it really looks bad:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_death
The game is in alpha, I think it is unhealthy to start rushing judgements and pushing people out of the door.
Even the most hardcore people don't like being ganked multiple times by several overleveled indivudials.
I'm assure Intrepid will have plenty of ways to enjoy both pvp and pve in healthy ways.
I did read your post, it is just that you are worrying for a class of player who is not going to stick around anyway. There are plenty of people who never have or never will play a single MMO for more than 2-3 months at a time. They jump from title to title endlessly trying not to miss out on the magic of a newly launched MMO/xpack.
These players generally don't know what they want out of a game. The see themselves as X(PvP,PvP,Crafter,RPer,Ect) type of player. They might think they don't like certain types of gameplay because they have never tried to learn them or had a bad experience trying to learn them.
Ashes is not going to be that different to these types of players. They are going to get in the game. Work towards building up a node for a little while. Then at the first sign of loss they are just going to leave. It just is not for everyone. Which is fine.
Like I said, at worst PvX is not for everyone. What can happen is some people that are into PvX can get some "Crafter" or "PvE" only types to come out of their shells and see the bigger picture. That takes social interactions that are not under the devs control to happen.
Some people that are worried about Ashes post as if you expect the game to have a population of 8-12million or something. WOW barely had those numbers for a short time. Realistically 10 servers at 50k players is half a million players. I am sure that ashes will put up numbers between 0.5-2million at its peak. Ashes is just not trying to crush all competing MMOs. It seems to be trying to offer a niche playstyle to a sub market within a niche market (The MMO market).
So yes, PvX is not for everyone at its worst, and a well rounded player will get the most out of Ashes.
Worrying about what people who are casual or exclude whole areas of the game think is a waste of time.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
There's a good reason for why you lose a percentage of your gatherables on death: it's to reward those who take care to deposit their gatherables periodically, rather than hoard them for a long period of time. The latter is more efficient, but also more risky.
I agree that it seems harsh in general for player death. It's not nearly as harsh as full loot pvp, but it still makes you value your life, unlike other MMORPGs. I prefer consequences for player death, unlike other MMOs where you simply just respawn a second later like nothing happened. I know it's personal preference, but I find it more rewarding when you survive when you know that death has consequences.
And I am saying it is a wishful thinking. Judging from my experience from similar older mmo games not only they sticked around, they made majority of community.
Name a mmo that wasn't solely focused on PvP where community didn't split and made disparity in content participation.
I haven't seen a game where it has "been done before", and I am talking about games that had engaging PvE as well, that is the big difference.
I don't expect Ashes to change this. I want it to, but I don't expect it.
Lineage 2,
ArcheAge,
Star Wars Galaxies,
Aion,
Tera.
Just a handful off the top of my head. Various reasons for failure, mostly a combination of adding too much "quality of life"/"catch up mechanics" and aggressive cash shops.
All of those games had cult followings and were loved by their community's. People left when they could not handle the constant changes that made the game something they did not like anymore.
If you don't think a MMO can live for long without a huge subscriber base we can look at these cult classics that are still releasing new content to this day.
FFXI,
EQ2,
DDO,
UO,
Lineage 1,
Rift,
Somehow over the years the fans of MMOs got this idea in their heads that having Millions of subs is the goal and required to be successful. All that is really required is a passionate Dev team, and a reasonable sized fanbase that can keep the game profitable. I think ashes could easily thrive for decades on just a hand full of servers per region. There may not be infinite money in the MMO market, but there is plenty of room for a game that is trying to provide what everyone else refuses to give us.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Played all of this except SWG. Unfortunately none of them fit. Tera/Aion was split, Lineage 2 didn't really had strong pve side. Not to mention, at least for me, pvp was really dull and boring.
By the way nobody is talking about milion subs, this is completely irrelevant. So please dont derail thread.
Relevant is however how the content type will interact with each other and how it ends up in practice.
Aren't we all sinners?
I can agree L2s combat is boring by todays standards, but fighting of over bosses is PvX.
Not trying to derail the thread. You are skeptical that PvX will work. What is your definition of working?
I brought the sub counts into the thread a little prematurely maybe, but these arguments tend to distill down to. "Not enough players the game will fail... PvX did not work...". Which is just not true. Every game fails on a case by case basis.
Each game is different. That is Why as much as you might not have liked L2 or Aion when you played them. I know people who would kill to play those games again in the glory days.
Like I said, a well rounded player will be able to enjoy the game to its fullest. This is kind of true in all games. The best you can hope for is for players who participate in everything to drag their friends into content they would normally ignore. Otherwise in practice, players who only want to focus on one thing will leave, looking for a game that focuses on that one thing. Which is fine, because Ashes can't be everything to everyone. No game can.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
If you don't like strawberry ice-cream. How can you ever expect to fully enjoy Neapolitan Ice-cream?
You just keep avoiding part of the dish every time it is served thinking someday it will be good.
Just order what you really want.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.