PvX - is this really going to work?

AoC is one of these games I look forward to and check news frequently. However i do have some concerns about PvX (PvE - PvP) system that is suppose to be core part of the game.

Coming from various online games I have a feeling that there are not too much (proportionally) players that do enjoy both types of gameplay.
I was pretty excited when I heard about AoC because I do like both.

However, I gave it a bit more thought...

1. Since there won't be just one big server nothing will stop community to split up depending on type of content they prefer, I suspect a lot of questions on forum: "Guys I mainly do PvP, which server should I pick?"

2. For more PvE oriented players, getting ganked too frequently will either make them change servers or completely quit the game.

3. If community does end up splitting (making informed decisions on which server to chose) trying to PvP on server that has majority of non-combatants is going to end up really frustrating experience and vice versa.

4. Usually you don't pick randomly servers, you pick the servers where your friends are (or want to be). So for example, despite my preferences I will simply playe where my friends will go and most of them prefer PvE.

Just to be clear - I think on paper it is good idea (PvX) but it makes me think that it doesn't take into consideration human nature.

Just to be clear 2 - completely separating it would just make this game a clone of another mmo so that won't be a solution either.

I suspect some of you may think:
"No this won't be a problem" - maybe not at the beginning of game but in the longer run, it probably will, like it happened in lots of games.

So what are your thoughts? What would you do when community ends up splitting?

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Comments

Hellfar

The game just simply isn't being catered to PvE oriented players. The target audience is a group of people that enjoy PvP intertwined with PvE, hence PvX. In the end, PvE oriented players may realize that Ashes just isn't the game for them, and that is fine.

There are going to be a large amount of combatant players on every server. I don't see any servers having a majority-focused PvE community. If that ever happened, the server would just die in the end since the world will practically require you to PvP if you want to experience any of the PvE content other than just farming boars.

In the end, the game is being built for players who like BOTH types of content. In the long term, these players will make up the majority of the player base. Remember that Ashes isn't trying to be the biggest MMO by any means, but rather they are trying to be the best at what they know they can do.

VmanGman

You’re making a HUGE assumption that the community will end up splitting. It’s impossible to get 50,000 like minded players (all PvE or all PvP) to go to the same server and thus create an unofficial PvE or PvP server. Not to mention that there are a lot of players who enjoy both.

As to your points.
1. As explained above that kind of split will be almost impossible to do well and sustain. Servers will have a healthy mix of PvE and PvP focused players.

2. Then it means that AoC is not the game for them. Games don’t need to cater to everyone... that is often how you end up catering to no one.

3. See point 1. Also, there are many other ways to PvP aside from the combatant/non-combatant system. There will be caravans, node wars, guild wars etc.

4. Have fun with your friends and once again see point 1.

bigepeen

I don't think community splitting would happen, for the same reason that people are free to join any server. The more that there is a community effort to create a PvE server, the more hardcore griefers, or just people that want an easy server to control, will be attracted to that server.

It's best to throw away your preconceived notions of other MMOs as a PvE player or PvP player, and think of AoC as a new experience of a truly PvX game.

daveywavey

Yes, it will be fine.

daveywavey

I think you're assuming that there'll be the option of doing one or the other. I'm expecting to have to do both. So, it doesn't matter which server I'm on, cos I'll be doing both on any of them.

Warth

@Kaminaris

PvP enthusiasts have been forced into PvE for years. They really don't mind it at all.
The only crowd you really drive away with that concept is those on the far end of the "pve only" spectrum. Which are players you really don't need nor want in the game that Ashes is aspiring to be.

nanfoodle

I suggest you take some time getting to know the Flag System in this game. There will be gankers like any open world PvP game but the systems in play will make sure its not the norm. And with this Flag System we will as a community be able to deal with them. This is not a FFA PvP game. People who try and play it as such will be shut down easily.

nanfoodle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnVt0-K11-g&t=79s

BlackBrony

The thing is: are people listening?
Are they actually listening when the watch the streams or youtube videos?
Ashes' identity is extremely clear and everyone on the forums, youtube and elsewhere is extremely clear on what AoC is.
Many see nice graphics and they're thinking "yes, a wow with good graphics", or create issues out of nowhere.

nanfoodle

BlackBrony wrote: »

The thing is: are people listening?
Are they actually listening when the watch the streams or youtube videos?
Ashes' identity is extremely clear and everyone on the forums, youtube and elsewhere is extremely clear on what AoC is.
Many see nice graphics and they're thinking "yes, a wow with good graphics", or create issues out of nowhere.

I started MMOing with EQ1 back in 1999. Love the game but had never PvPed before. Dark Age of Camelot dropped and I bought it because of Norse Mythology. Been PvPing ever since. People may buy Ashes for what ever reason but why they stay or leave is what really matters.

tabanar

I think that you are forgetting that the systems in ashes should work like an economy and reach a balanced state (if created with proper incentives).

I agree with everyone saying that the only group that will really be turned off from ashes will be pve only-refuse to engage in pvp type players. So ignoring that group, let's run through your scenario.

Let's say you had an individual who wants to be primarily pve focused. They go to the forum to find out what server to join. One server has more pvp players than pve players, so all of the drops from the pve players running the dungeons are actually MORE valuable because there are firstly less pve players to run those dungeons and secondly more pvp players(who aren't running these dungeons themselves) buying those drops. (Less supply, More demand)

This means that someone who wants to primarily focus on pve will make more money on a server focused on pvp. So like I said in the beginning, the systems of ashes should create a natural balance. Rather than everyone wanting to split up it should encourage people to want to be on the same server as opposite type players.

Going the opposite way, if a server was dominated by pve players then gear would be super cheap for pvp players. (More supply, Less demand).

Ignoring price. If there are less pve players on a server that means there is less competition for dungeons and raids if I join. If there are less pvp players on a server that means I can have a larger impact if I am a pvp player.

So perhaps I'm wrong in my thoughts, but I'm hoping the systems of ashes create a balance just like an economy would have.

Leiloni

Lots of great comments here. I just wanted to add that PvX games have been done many times before so we all know what to expect and it'll be fine. Ashes is a new take on the PvX idea but certainly not the first so it's a tried and true formula. You're going to be doing both PvE and PvP together most of the time and you won't really be able to separate them even if you wanted to - think of it as a PvPvE game.

George_Black

If you had played a pvx mmo before you wouldnt have such concerns.

Nagash

Its worked before so why not again

Noaani

If there was a server that was mostly PvE, it wouldn't take long before a PvP priented guild recognized the opportunity.

Kaminaris

Ok so to address what people been speculating:

1. I know how PvX works however profit does not come before friends. People tend to play with their friends or with community that suits their interests the most.

I don't think this even can be debated. It is similar situation that WoW is facing right now with their faction "balance". When I first started playing I did not chose server, I did not chose faction. I simply went where my friend were playing.

This is mmo game that is suppose to make you play with others. As in other topic, you are not suppose to play solo so expecting that community will split evenly by itself is kinda naive.

2. Even if AoC puts focus on both PvE and PvP it is also naive to think that everyone playing the game will be equally interested in both. You can't prevent people to play it because they don't like to pvp.

For example my main focus is PvE (70%) but I do like good, larger scale pvp (30%). Maybe would like it even more if games i played had more engaging pvp. The thing is ganking is gigantic turn off (like winning a race against person on wheelchair), duels, small group arenas are boring for me.

Hellfar wrote: »

The game just simply isn't being catered to PvE oriented players. The target audience is a group of people that enjoy PvP intertwined with PvE, hence PvX. In the end, PvE oriented players may realize that Ashes just isn't the game for them, and that is fine.

This is what I was saying I think is wishful thinking. Everyone will try this game, not only people like me that are interested in both. And I fear that one group (probably PvE one) is going to be a much larger population than the other.

And that is not really the case if we look this https://pl.ashesofcreation.wiki/PvX
"Some servers may be more PvP focused than others.[3]"

This also means that some server may be more focused on PvE than others and ultimately it will be up to community to decide.

Just to be clear I am not saying it completely won't work, I am just concerned about community balance because of severe penalties upon death. To put it simply, if risk will far outweigh the reward (and that is the case for more PvE focused players) they will seek out "workarounds".

Vhaeyne

At the very worst. PvX is not for everyone. That is perfectly fine. There are plenty of games that separate them or focus on one or the other.

It will work for a well rounded player who wants everything to be both rewarding and challenging.

bigepeen

Kaminaris wrote: »

Ok so to address what people been speculating:
Just to be clear I am not saying it completely won't work, I am just concerned about community balance because of severe penalties upon death. To put it simply, if risk will far outweigh the reward (and that is the case for more PvE focused players) they will seek out "workarounds".

There are no penalties upon death for objective-based events (e.g. caravans, guild wars, node sieges). The penalties for dying otherwise are not too bad unless you're corrupted from killing non-combatants. The minor penalties can even be further mitigated by carrying less gatherables and processed goods.

Kaminaris

Vhaeyne wrote: »

At the very worst. PvX is not for everyone. That is perfectly fine. There are plenty of games that separate them or focus on one or the other.

It will work for a well rounded player who wants everything to be both rewarding and challenging.

I am getting a feeling that people dont really read my posts

So I am going to write simple list to feed your thought:

1. Everyone will try the game, PvE, PvP, PvX, Casual, Hardcore etc. type of players
2. Usual thought process is to play where friends are or to find yourself community/server that shares your interests
3. But you won't be seeking a place where the type of gameplay you prefer is not happening
4. It is in human nature to seek the path of least resistance
5. If the risk will far outweigh reward, you won't be participating or actively seek to avoid participation

bigepeen wrote: »

There are no penalties upon death for objective-based events (e.g. caravans, guild wars, node sieges). The penalties for dying otherwise are not too bad unless you're corrupted from killing non-combatants. The minor penalties can even be further mitigated by carrying less gatherables and processed goods.

But that literally disincentive gathering materials. And it really looks bad:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_death

Tacualeon

Kaminaris wrote: »

So what are your thoughts? What would you do when community ends up splitting?

The game is in alpha, I think it is unhealthy to start rushing judgements and pushing people out of the door.
Even the most hardcore people don't like being ganked multiple times by several overleveled indivudials.

I'm assure Intrepid will have plenty of ways to enjoy both pvp and pve in healthy ways.

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