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Death Penalty - What do we want?
Marzzo
Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you die, should you lose experience? Gathering Materials? Lose your subscription?!
What is your opinion on death penalties? If no, why? If yes, in what way shape or form?
In my opinion, if the death Penalty Is too high, it promotes safe gameplay, which leads to boring gameplay. Risk taking is fun, it makes our heart race, it creates memories and experiences.
I think the death penalty should exist, but not cost more than a couple I'd minutes in drawback.
What do you think?
What is your opinion on death penalties? If no, why? If yes, in what way shape or form?
In my opinion, if the death Penalty Is too high, it promotes safe gameplay, which leads to boring gameplay. Risk taking is fun, it makes our heart race, it creates memories and experiences.
I think the death penalty should exist, but not cost more than a couple I'd minutes in drawback.
What do you think?
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Comments
That way, if you have a class you enjoy playing, the death penalty is only resolved by dedicating time specifically to that task, but doing so is at least somewhat enjoyable.
Loss of sub is obviously too much.
I feel like extreme death penalty's only make risks that much more exciting. I have played a few "Perma Death" characters in the past, and the there is a thrill of making it out of a sticky situation that would otherwise feel mundane.
It might make you play safer more often, but some times you "gotta roll the hard six". In that moment is is thrilling.
A few times a year DDO does the perma death league with a leader board. Getting to the top of that leader board requires you to take risks like running whole raids on a perma death character because the leader board is based on the percentage of the games content you have completed on a single life and the difficulty you are doing that content on. All I can say is that it is great fun. Around ever corner is possible death.
I would not want perma death for Ashes, but I at least want to feel the cold heartless embrace of death.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I'm not reward motivated. Positive or negative. I'm thrilled by the doing with little thoughts of what comes after the success, or failure. If I found it fun enough, I'll do it again. If the price of failure outweigh the pleasure, if paying back the dept isn't fun enough to incur it in the first place, I'll simply avoid it.
You don't take the flagged death penalty when you die in meaningful PvP themes.
Which means duels, caravans, node wars, and node sieges do not come with the death penalty since you are not flagged, and they are events where death is expected.
This is confirmed? Sorry but i think even this type of pvp will need penalties or defensive team will always win, you need something that when you die you think two times if you want to comeback... If there is no penalties in this type of fight, tactic in fighs will be inexistent, because you can always die and comeback, and who will have the vantage is people with the spawn near to the event
I guess they do have the item durability hit for pve deaths, but that gold loss is so inconsequential. The penalty is more about the knowledge that you didn't succeed in what you were trying to do than in anything else.
I think any sort of XP/gear loss would be terrible. I never want to go back and have to grind up XP again.
I want to get to max level ASAP, and then get into the real game (I'm also a firm believer that the shorter the leveling process and the more the end game experience the better the game). XP loss is one of the big reasons I never even tried the original EQ (and one of my hesitancy in considering this game).
If I died to a high risk mob(s) that I thought I could take and there was a XP loss, I wouldn't even both trying again (where's the fun in that?). If there isn't a major penalty though, then I'd totally be up for a second shot at it even though I know its going to stretch my abilities/skills to get the kill.
It shouldn't be about being penalized when you die... It should be about being motivated to try out hard content that will stretch you, and then rewarded when you succeed against the hard content.
Without death penalties why not just eat a bowl of cereal and watch cartoons!?
I murdered my way through dark souls 2 finally feeling the sting of death!
Anyone who gets what I'm saying will get what I'm saying!
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with this means that: you can kill other players if for example they are also farming and grinding what you, the risk would be to kill them and with it a death penalty and they can come looking for you, the reward is that you will grow materials and many players will stay away from you to not die
but all the pvp established for it will not put it as for example already said the caravans, nobody will put corruption, and will not always win the defender because if the materials are rare or valuable, but players will ally to plunder you, and defenders are likely to be friends, guild partners, mercenaries or people who directly benefit from the caravan
To me the drop penaly should be bassed on coruption sistems. so:
A non-combatant should drop 20% of his inventory (ony things that you can sell), on that drop should be a chance of a 10% for items to get destroyed (lets say a gatherer has only 100 wood, so he dies and drop 20 wood and there is a chacne 2 wood can get destroyed, but he also has a sword on inventory, there is a 20% chance to drop it and if it drops there is a 10% chacne to get destroyed). The same for equiped gear but with lower rates since its not a combatant there should be only a 5% drop chance.
A combatant shoud be the same way but with a 50% drop rate on inventory (lets say again gatherer has only 100 wood, so he dies and drop 50 wood and there is a chacne 5 wood can get destroyed, but he also has a sword on inventory, there is a 50% chance to drop it and if it drops there is a 10% chacne to get destroyed). The same for equiped gear but since its combatant the drop rate should rise to 15-20% drop chance.
_____So this is for normal people, i will put a limit of 1 drop on equiped items for NC and 2 equipoed items for Combatants, so lets say the sistems randomly picks an equiped item and the 5% chance is positive and you drop your weapon , it stops there so there is not a chance of loosing your armor too. On this side i will exclude tools from the drop and also recipes and cosmetics of raids.
Now the corrupted, i think there should be a great incentive for corrupted players that is getting items from other players when killed thats why you need a death penalty that drop items and not just loosing your time, but also you need apunisment for that. So a base drop rate of 50% up to 100% bassed on your corruption level, that including your equiped gear and tools. And each time you die you get a reduction on your corruption level (only once a day and the one who kills you should be a combatant, and your death should geta minimum value so you just dong die naked).
That said i will put a chacne of items to get drestroyed (not droped) on node sieges of 10% too and a 100% item destruction rate for castle siege.
I think that the destruction of objects is something basic for the economy of the game to remain stable, because in a game where the generation of resources is infinite if those resources do not disappear at a high rate the value of the objects decays making the experience of being a gatherer, precesser or crafter a waste of time and a very unsatisfying experience, it is good that people want PVP and say to themselves "I do not want to lose anything so I can have a more aggressive style of play in pvp" , but in the end pvp is something that has to come with risk, if there is no risk it is meaningless, if there is no penalty when you are fighting with someone and he sees that he is going to lose he will just stand still for you to kill him, or when you are hunting someone he won't really care about dying and it will be meaningless, if the player has something to lose he will keep trying until the end giving situations of chases or fights that can last more than 10 minutes.
As for the sieges it is obvious that if there is no loss of equipment when a guild gets the best items in the game will make no sense, there will be a figth where everyone use the top tier gear, dominating a castle should be a demonstration not only of skill in combat but also in resource management, politics and especially in devising plans for combat to minimize losses and not end up being a battlefield where people get to throw areas randomly. If you enter the defense or attack a node it should be because you really want to participate in the event as such ,and not just get in to see how long you last, avoiding that players who have no intention of competing for the node , to get in to troll , as they will lose part of their equipment. Which brings me to another question, ¿how to prevent players from entering the defense of a node with extremely low equipment just to troll?
There are a lot of doubts and questions that I would like to discuss but since English is not my native language I don't feel comfortable making a post about it. I would like the game to have a more hardcore approach to pvp but not so much that hardcore players can abuse the system to dominate, you have to give tools to players who do not spend so many hours in the game to deal with alliances or guilds that are fully dedicated to the game, and I think the drop rate is the perfect sistem for that. Keeping the players of using his top tier gear 24/7 even when they are just going to gather.
PvP players would likely want a harsher system with more loot dropping, but with the current system it might actually be worth pking and fighting for resources which is a good compromise for them
PvE players would likely want less penalties so they could enjoy everything outside PvP more, but the current penalty system is not so harsh that it puts you behind significantly. It also promotes teamwork!
Personally I'd like it to be even harsher because penalties need to exist so you don't just turn your brain off and stop being engaged. But if I could change something with the system it would probably be the amount of loot dropped on death and maybe some slight modifications to the corruption system. It's hard at this point to criticize it when we can neither see it in action nor test it, but I am afraid of it being exploitable or abuseable.
Now, being in a game, where you cannot move freely, because at any moment a group of enemies appears to you and makes you kiss the ground, without being able to farm, without being able to level, without being able to do anything, and on top of that you lose exp .. honestly, it's not going to be my game. I will play outside "the system", I will dedicate myself to have adventures, to explore new areas, to change nodes, to create my team, to have my closed group of friends and have fun while the rest of you get stressed out by wanting to dominate the server. I do not criticize it, it can be played in many ways and each of them valid. But of course, I will not be within the competitive.
All the best.
Totally against.
This type of game is only used for those who have 10 hours a day TO PLAY, they get together with a single purpose, which is to dominate the server, (regardless of the rest of experiences,) not let the rest play game turns into SHIT.
I have seen how troops of players changed servers, just to dominate it, leave it as a desert and continue their way to another server.
Wonderful game huh ???? Pay so that they do not let you play, so that you lose everything you get with your TIME, time that is not returned or recovered. Anyway...
I say this because if you have your own gear droppable too then the risk of focusing on gathering far outweighs the rewards. Not only do you have to risk dying while you gather but then you have to risk the caravan while moving everything you’ve gathered.
You must be careful with severe death penalties. As soon as players believe they’ve totally wasted their time because they lose too much, they won’t bother trying anymore.
There is no way a group of players can dominate 103 nodes . The full loot pvp has taught me that knowledge overcomes everything. I dont want to play a game that just take my exp off when i die so i have to kill 78173216 mobs again to level up. That way i wont learn anything but grinding .I want a game that makes me worry about whether or not it's worth the risk to go into enemy territory and not just go in because YOLO! i want a true MMO and not a multiplayer RPG
If there is no way of loosing your gear and everyone ends up using legendary items ¿why do you even call them legendary?
Wonderfull game huh??? i will just colect every item and wait for a 5 max level increase DLC called expansion that makes my legendary items looks like garbage so i need to grind again to get the new drops. Interaction between players is not necessary unless I am the one looking for it.
I agree with most of this.
Spending your time without achieving success (and missing out on the reward) is enough of a penalty.
Players doing stupid shit SHOULD be penalized extra, so they learn to stop doing stupid shit. But trial and error, exploration, and honest mistakes are terrible reasons to punish players.
"Here hold this beer a moment for me."
Now, on the one hand, if Intrepid designs the penalty to be too severe, they are favoring the hardcore no-life segment of the player-base to the detriment of the more casual players or the PVE-focused players. On the other hand, if they design the penalty to be insufficiently severe, then you will lose the incentive to play more intelligently, to plan your moves across the landscape, and the thrill of winning an evening-defining moment.
I've seen some folks, elsewhere, ask for a full-loot PVP zone. I think this is too harsh because you have to decide where to put these zones that is unimportant enough such that players passing by or traveling from A-B aren't forced to enter it. I think that you could create such a zone for dropping full-inventory but not including equipped gear, but the same problem persists.
Finding balance on this aspect of the game is certainly not easy because it requires either a compromise (what we currently have) or else it requires that Intrepid favor one portion of the player-base over another. Each of the people arguing for a more severe penalty or a minimally-severe penalty seem to be transparently advocating for a system that favors their style of gaming rather than what is best for the game and the community as a whole. I'd like to see more suggestions on what might improve the death-penalty system for all players without sacrificing one aspect of the player-base.
I don't need a harsh penalty to try to avoid death. Harsh penalties will just cause people to not want to take risks (big pulls, hard bosses, pvp, etc) and that will just make things more boring. I'd much rather have fun trying to see how much I could pull and aoe down, than go one pack at a time to play it safe.
I like to try to do the hardest content I can. I find that more enjoyable than just playing it safe all the time.
This is one reason why no MMO is able to suit every MMO player.
My position is that you shouldn't lose any long-term progress from death (no XP/gear loss) by default. Certainly not for standard open world grinding/questing/exploration. But I think more punishing game-modes that deviate from the norm are possible in AoC, in specific circumstances. That's my compromise to appease both ends of the player spectrum.
Like contested zones or wilderness areas that have higher death penalties are an easy (but uninspired) example. Or putting rogue-like dungeon-delving side content in the game can scratch that high-risk itch for people too. As long as it has it's own progression systems that you can advance, risk, and lose, independent of the open world. Or of course, becoming corrupted and playing as an outlaw is already an option.
But i believe that in an MMO there should be room for both some casual stuff and hardcore/high difficulty things. So maybe it should be no more than just losing a % of durability, a set amount of resources (Like, you lose 20 resources and it randomly gambles if you lose 20 ore or 20 wood for example) and some experience.
Could also make it punishing by having to do a little task, for example, you spawn at a respawn point and before you can do anything, you need to visit a healer in town to make you battle-ready again which takes a minute or two.
OR There can be a mode like the ironman mode in RS (But different) where you toggle the more hardcore mode, where you risk more and lose more when you die. This isn't my favourite idea, but its an option they can consider or give their own twist to.
All in all, my personal preference would be something that isn't frustrating, i understand that many people enjoy more difficult things, but it could cause the gameplay to be extremely frustrating for others. A big setback would not be enjoyable for me personally. Losing some durability and having to repair it and lose some gold is already good enough for me.
Also just losing the fight isn't big enough penalty at all. Specially when you talking about more PvP centric players. We are not playing for some kind of ELO after all
⇻ theNILV ⇺
An upfront currency payment before going into an arena/battleground, winner takes the spoils.
Perhaps the losses from death should start small and ramp up? (Just durability for first death, but drop some materials if you die a second time in the next 5 mins) So people can take some risks and not play super safe mode all the time, but back out and go safe if they are dieing.
I wonder with all the risks if anyone's ever going to go out solo or just 2 player to the world. I'm all for having groups in world content, but if everything requires a group then that's a bit too much. It seems like the risk/reward isn't worth it for solo world play. A better solution might be having varying levels of difficulty in the mobs (It was a mistake when WoW removed a lot of the elite mob questing areas so players could just solo all quests). Areas with more challenging mobs could have better resource spawns as well.
I'd be for full loot at death. People should lose "Karma points" so after that they go "Red" and even loose some xp/skill points by dieing. I hope Devs dont listen to the carebears and make it another wow clone or New world desaster where pvp will be pointless or just capture the flag style. Make fighting and dying in game mean something and additionally its good for the economy in game too. Crafters wont go out of orders.
Add some safezones for new players but make top tier ressource zones free for all pvp so clans have something to fight over. Albions system is pretty good in that regard too. So please dont make this mmo the next boring game. Thx