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Would it be good if downed state gets into Ashes?
RunningWild
Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
Hello everyone!
I thought I would start a topic about if it's a good idea to implement "downed state" into Ashes, when we are seriously injured. This is not a new thing in MMOs, Guild Wars 2 has it already. GW2 had a lot of new and great mechanics when it released, like awesome dodging, a great skill system and the downed state. I think downed state would fit Ashes with a few modifications.
My opinion about how to do it:
- if you're down, you have 10 seconds to get back to your feet with the help of an ally, and your HP gets lower and lower during this time like if you have a DOT, maybe represented in a different color than normally
- we wouldn't need skills attached to the downed state, like in GW2, it would mean more work for the devs and it's unnecessary, it doesn't give that much value to the gameplay
- downed state would work in PvE and PvP, giving an extra dimension to battles
- being brought back from downed state by an ally would give us 15% HP by default, but clerics would be able to "raise" from a distance and they would give more HP with that
- when downed we would be able to slowly crawl on the ground
- we wouldn't be able to "raise" ourselves, or only with a very unique and hard-to-get skill
- if we skip the process during raising someone, we would need to start it over and the victim would continue to bleed out
- raising someone would not be interruptable with normal skills, or most of them, only with CC skills, this would be logical
I think downed state would bring an extra dimension to gameplay, as dodge did long ago (and dodge is used almost everywhere nowadays). Downed state is also getting into more and more games and it gives extra fun in PvE and PvP everywhere.
What do you think? Would it be good if downed state gets into Ashes?
I thought I would start a topic about if it's a good idea to implement "downed state" into Ashes, when we are seriously injured. This is not a new thing in MMOs, Guild Wars 2 has it already. GW2 had a lot of new and great mechanics when it released, like awesome dodging, a great skill system and the downed state. I think downed state would fit Ashes with a few modifications.
My opinion about how to do it:
- if you're down, you have 10 seconds to get back to your feet with the help of an ally, and your HP gets lower and lower during this time like if you have a DOT, maybe represented in a different color than normally
- we wouldn't need skills attached to the downed state, like in GW2, it would mean more work for the devs and it's unnecessary, it doesn't give that much value to the gameplay
- downed state would work in PvE and PvP, giving an extra dimension to battles
- being brought back from downed state by an ally would give us 15% HP by default, but clerics would be able to "raise" from a distance and they would give more HP with that
- when downed we would be able to slowly crawl on the ground
- we wouldn't be able to "raise" ourselves, or only with a very unique and hard-to-get skill
- if we skip the process during raising someone, we would need to start it over and the victim would continue to bleed out
- raising someone would not be interruptable with normal skills, or most of them, only with CC skills, this would be logical
I think downed state would bring an extra dimension to gameplay, as dodge did long ago (and dodge is used almost everywhere nowadays). Downed state is also getting into more and more games and it gives extra fun in PvE and PvP everywhere.
What do you think? Would it be good if downed state gets into Ashes?
3
Comments
No, it makes it too easy to get people back into the fight.
One thing that I hate is when games make it so that it is possible to raise dead during combat. The difference in difficulty is always lower if people can be raised in combat.
When someone falls in combat, I want them out of the fight until the dust settles. No second chances. No dumb GW2 downed states. Clear and simple death.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
In AoC there will be clear-cut roles: tank, cleric, and DDs guessing with lots of heal spells rez, and probably combat rezzes. I dont think the "downed state" fits into such combat and probably will make fights endlessly long.
Everyone involved with the system from base idea to implemention should be ashamed of themselves for this horrible idea. It is not of the biggest reasns I hate GW2.
A hard CC by the dev team is simply a bad idea!
I have high hopes for this game and hope they don't make bad choices like having this kind of stuff.
Personally, I would like a downed system where the player survived with the suggested conditions in the OP post only about 10-20% of the time when downed. While this would help to keep dying interesting, it wouldn't be enough to cause the situation where a decently large group of players is able to always revive any downed players in a very short time that makes it impossible to whittle the large group down.
Also, the GW2 downed skills were too strong. I had plenty of matches that came down to the person who was downed first would win due to how the health bar changed when downed and the fact that the player would stand back up if downing the other. In fact, if already downed Player A can do DPS to down Player B, then downing Player B should not self revive Player A. It is just a frustrating and overpowered mechanic to deal with.
Less then 1HP is not surviving. Back to respawn for you.
GW2 handles the downed state quite well, although I'm coming from the PvE side of things. But it suites the game well due to lack of holy trinity.
Good thoughts though. I do hope AoC takes away other great elements from GW2 but with their own twist.
Now I would not mind if you could do finishers to force a downed player back to the re spawn point. Also allowing friendly players to cast a revive spell to bring you back to life, before your cool down timer pops and forces you back to the re spawn. This would be ok. But I don't want to see lop sided down state abilities like in GW2.
In PvE, I believe that the downed state is great for the game. It gives you that last chance to pick yourself back up by killing an enemy or it allows for another player to pick you back up during the fight. For casual PvE it works.
For PvP arenas, it's straight up annoying.
Every class in GW2 has a different set of downed skills and it makes certain classes naturally stronger than others. The necromancer is hands down the best downed state in the game. If the battle is close where the necro is downed first and his opponent has a little bit of health yet, the necro just wins. His auto attack ability heals the necro and can even pull himself out of downed state. The warrior, on the other hand, throws rocks and hammers.
Every class also has a way to interrupt finisher moves. A finisher move is channeled move that will finish off a player if it is completed. Since every class can cancel that finisher move, it becomes highly annoying to use said finisher move unless the downed person wastes their interrupt. This usually results in the standing player mashing their dps rotation to finish you off instead.
That's still not all. When you're trying to finish off a downed person and his teammate comes to his rescue and starts to revive him, you better hope you don't have any cooldowns. It's comedic how sometimes the standing enemy can tank your hits and outheal his teammate at the same time while you struggle in futility to make him stop. If the standing player has the stability boon and has built a tankier build, you can just forget getting any kills.
My point here is that GW2's downed state mechanic works for PvE and really sucks for PvP. I'm sure you could balance a downed state for AoC with the removal of downed state skills and being able to interrupt revivals more easily but I'm still opposed to it. If I take someone to 0hp, I want to be rewarded with a kill and it's as simple as that. Downed states just unnecessarily prolong fights.
And I've heard that Intrepid plans on making death punishing so I would think that implementing downed states wouldn't be on their radar whatsoever but who's to say?
TL;DR I don't like downed states. GW2 did downed states for PvP and I hate it.
Can you imagine how hard it'd be to win a siege if all the ranged enemies would just get downed behind a wall and back in the fight 10 seconds later?
Another thing is "silence", "frozen" etc.
It is a cop out for balancing content for programmers.Programmers can make bosses that are incredibly difficult to take down without dying and not have to balance it if a Down State exists. I hated that I would take bosses on that would insta stun and then kill me, but it was ok cause I just got ressed back up. All the fight became was, how long could I stay up and do DPS for, before getting knocked back down. It is one of the annoying parts of Guildwars 2. A fight should have serious consequences that does not require me to stop fighting just to get to a player and res them.....when I am DPS.
Please do not consider implementing that kind of system. If I die....I lost the fight.
Aren't we all sinners?
The potential issues with downed states are:
I think those potential issues can be addressed, but it's not worth it for most games. I think GW2 does it well, and it was needed because they didn't have dedicated healers with rezzes. GW2 was fun. Fight me.
Having downed states is probably not necessary in AoC though. (I know, I know, why did I waste all that time talking about it if I don't think it's worth putting in AoC? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
The thing I'm most worried about for AoC, is if Clerics are the only archetype that can rezz, and there's only going to be 1 of them in an 8-player party, and the Cleric dies.... it's an instant wipe. If the Cleric can erase other people's mistakes, there should be a way to resurrect the Cleric as well (albeit more scarce/expensive?)
In my opinion, of course. Maybe there's some healer mains out there who like taking on all that responsibility and personal risk.
Target: Downs, starts crawling around: "help, someone raise me plz"
Nope.
An enemy is only dead when they are dead. Downing them is not "killing them". Any complaints you're having about "killing them and them not being dead" is just not true nor is it a good argument.
For one, sure it means second chance but so do you. It's not actually unfair. (Edit: Class balance notwithstanding)
It's the opposite thinking of how people used to think Nobushi in For Honor was overpowered because the bleed would kill you after you thought you were safe, and people thought that was crazy unfair and would get unjustly mad and tilted. The reality was that once they let the bleed get applied to a certain point they were already dead and should have realized that from the beginning. If they had adjusted their mindset and kept the bleed in mind, and making sure they didn't get hit by bleed attacks they wouldn't have had so much trouble.
Instead they just let the the low-damage-but-high-bleed attacks hit them because they don't seem strong in the moment and whined because they died to the bleed.
It's the same with your downed state complaints. Instead of thinking you should be alive like in For Honor, you're thinking they should be dead, but you're setting yourself up for anger by not adjusting your mindset to the game you're playing.
Personally I don't think downed states will fit with AoC, but I had to point that out because half of you complaining aren't making a good argument.
Edit: It reminds me of when Summit1G was trying to get good at GW2 pvp but would get crazy tilted because he kept forgetting downed state exists. He wouldn't even utilize his own downed state because he would forget or just didn't like it instead of learning to play the systems he was playing. He went in with the mindset of a different game and got upset because he was losing (the reason being he wasn't playing like it was GW2)
Edit2: Nobody complains about downed states in BR games like Apex. It's because MMO's don't traditionally have downed state that people aren't used to it and aren't adjusting their mindset.
Sea of thieves is a good example, my party of two would take down a ship with a party of four. But they'd keep respawning which was very tedious, when we already won the fight and are trying to take the spoils of war. Luckily there was ways to work around it if you were good enough, but i didnt like the system.
See my post directly above yours, it's exactly what I was talking about. If you want them to be dead, finish them off, don't make the mistake of thinking they're dead and having shockedpikachuface.jpg when they actually aren't. Adapt to the game you're playing.
This right here is where you are wrong. They aren't "killed" if they are downed.
If you didn't finish them off and they had time to rez, heal and come back to kill you that's your fault.
This is a different scenario and I've actually also argued that SoT respawn system was very flawed on their subreddit many times. It's not the same thing as a downed state though and not a good analogy.
In the SoT example, they ARE actually dead, but just respawning quickly. That's NOT what a downed state is.
Edit: (Pre-emptive disclaimer again) I'm not advocating for downed states in AoC, I'm just saying that argument (because so many of you are using it) is not a good or accurate one. If we're not using legit arguments, how can we expect a legit system.
@Dreoh I didnt read all comments, i just gave my take on the main post. When will you be downed? When your hp bar hits 0 or close to it? I do think it could add something extra in pvp but make at the same time, it would make pve a breeze would it not?
You said ''Any complaints you're having about "killing them and them not being dead" is just not true nor is it a good argument.'' - I think a complaint in terms of a game, is always a good argument. If players don't like something, they complain, and that shows that something may not be good about the system. One player isn't credible, a bunch of them definitely is.
You're telling people to just ''adjust'' their mindset'' if it were to get added, but if that's not what people want, it would be a stupid thing to add. I personally just believe it could cause frustrating gameplay, i understand that if i dont finish the downed player off, its my fault! BUT it'd still be frustrating and annoying gameplay, when a health bar hits 0, i want it to be 0. How summit1g reacted is completely justified, because its a frustrating feature to some. If it isn't for others, good for you but for many it probably will be.
GW2 has challenging PvE content and it has downed states.
For one, it's wrong because they aren't dead. You never killed them. Your statement and argument isn't accurate from the get go.
And sure sometimes people complain about things that are actually bad. But just because a lot of people have an opinion on something doesn't make that opinion correct. Don't fall into that logical fallacy.
There's whole populations of racists, doesn't mean racism is a valid opinion.
A huge population of SoT thinks there should be a PvE only mode and the game would be better for it and complain incessantly about it. Doesn't mean they are right about that opinion.
It's only frustrating to you, like I said, because you're playing it like it's WoW or any other game without downed states and you THINK they should be dead. You don't go into Apex and complain that the enemy isn't dead when you downed them because you know they are downed and that's part of the games mechanics. So why aren't you doing the same for downed state MMO's?
Edit: (Pre-emptive disclaimer again) I'm not advocating for downed states in AoC, I'm just saying that argument (because so many of you are using it) is not a good or accurate one. If we're not using legit arguments, how can we expect a legit conclusion.