I don't really want to start any arguements or anything, but would you at least be open to the idea that "artistic meaningful substance" means different things to different individuals? For me, beautiful dresses and elegant armour designs classes as the above, for others that is too much, clearly.
As such, is it not better to try finding a good balance between both while keeping as much as possible to the vision of the game, instead of trying to please only one or the other side? So far I can't say that many of the cosmetics have been too radical in either way (other than maybe that Bear mount, but that's again just my personal opinion).
I just never understand how some individuals kick up a fuss as soon as something doesn't meet their taste 100%.
I'd be more than happy if there's an option to turn this off, and give the option to those of us that don't like to be surrounded by the local circus 24/7.
Now this I can absolutely agree with. Like I have been saying, people have different tastes and that is perfectly fine. Some sort of an option for what we choose to see and not would be great, if possible.
I don't see this as an arguement more so than a discussion that needs to be had. The community is clearly quite split on the matter. It might be nice to hear from the devs if they are concerned about this. Ideally, having cash shop content servers, and a minority of non-cash shop content servers'd be ideal for me. And not something I think that'd be too far of a stretch for a subscription based game that has a potential player base of this size. I'd immediately shut up about it if this'd be an option.
Yea I'm definitely not trying to argue, just trying to bring what I'm calling "theme creep" to attention.
And maybe someone in the dev team will read through this and see that we are worried and have valid concerns about it.
Yeah, "theme creep" is a really good term.
I have noticed that even when working with small groups. Everyone has cool ideas they want to bring to the table. Some of them may go against any the original vision for the project, but are too good to leave out. Overtime the original art direction is eroded, and the production is its own new thing. Which is fine to me personally.
Now that I have seen more of the things like the Angel racial skin, I am more accepting of the "fantastical" art direction. The art direction of Tera and Aion was never my favorite, but it also never upset me. I used the word "Whimsical" a lot to describe those games, because to me that was the best word for the style. Ashes leans a little in that direction now, but not as far. Tera takes place in a dream on a turtles back or something silly like that. Some people like it, I prefer a little more verisimilitude, but it never stopped me from playing tera.
I would be lying if I said my favorite asset in ashes "Snail-boi" was not completely whimsical. So maybe I do like whimsical more than I think I do. I guess as long as we don't get beach attire we should count our blessings.
I guess as long as we don't get beach attire we should count our blessings.
Fitting to theme of people's varying preferences, I'd take beach attire every day over most of the costume-y or flashy and gaudy stuff, especially mounts. If it is worn in equipment slots, then it stays where you can safely not have armor equipped. Apparel at that, who's to say what fashion could exist in a fake universe with various races?
But getting ganked by a guy with a snowman head riding a plushie pink pony is where I'm likely to rethink the value of my subscription...
The skins do have the potential to get a little out of hand. When FutureCultLeader mentioned a demon skin player riding around on a fluffy teddy bear mount, it really hit home. I dunno, I don't normally care too much about stuff like this. But hope they can keep it under control somehow.
I think the teddy bear mount is the bigger problem than the demon. Is that a real mount skin?
Edit: It's a real skin.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We have seen less then 1% of what they are making and people have already lost perspective.
Some place it is quoted that they want people to show off their gear and you will NOT be able to turn it off on your end. Except for large PvP battles where it might need to be done for performance concerns.
We offer cosmetics for players who wish to support the project early. The exclusive nature of the limited availability is something I think collectors value. If you buy cosmetics as an MMO player, I know I enjoyed if the cosmetic is rare and not every girl at the party is wearing the same dress. In addition, these cosmetics are used to populate the world through NPC variants and color/texture changes so their offering aligns with our production schedule. The good thing about these packs is they contain no P2W advantages and there is no box cost, so from a mechanics standpoint you do not need to buy them to excel in the game on launch. And also, there are comparable and subjectively more grand cosmetics achievable in game as well.[10] – Steven Sharif
Is there an answer that satisfies everyone? Nope. And that's ok. We are open and transparent with our philosophies and business model. You know what you are getting with Ashes and to me, given my experiences in other games, it is a nice breath of fresh air.[34] – Steven Sharif
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
I guess as long as we don't get beach attire we should count our blessings.
Fitting to theme of people's varying preferences, I'd take beach attire every day over most of the costume-y or flashy and gaudy stuff, especially mounts. If it is worn in equipment slots, then it stays where you can safely not have armor equipped. Apparel at that, who's to say what fashion could exist in a fake universe with various races?
But getting ganked by a guy with a snowman head riding a plushie pink pony is where I'm likely to rethink the value of my subscription...
What I was saying is that's a slippery slope that is very easy for developers to slip off into
All of that is true and makes sense, however in practice we've seen a teddy bear mount and overly flashy skins that completely change your race, corgi with a red cloak pet skin, and we're only 1% in.
Edit: Steven said you can't satisfy everyone, so his plan seems to be to cater to the cash shop answer with flashy skins that don't seem to make any sense with the theme of the rest of the game (based off what we've seen so far), instead of keeping sure the integrity of the aesthetics of the game.
Essentially, "He can't satisfy everyone, so he's going to satisfy the people who want teddy bear mounts instead of people who want immersion and the original theme of the game"
Hence the worries.
We don't know enough yet to be sure of anything, but what little we've seen causes worry. Though it could be worry brought upon BY lack of info of course.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
All of that is true and makes sense, however in practice we've seen a teddy bear mount and overly flashy skins that completely change your race, corgi with a red cloak pet skin, and we're only 1% in.
Edit: Steven said you can't satisfy everyone, so his plan seems to be to cater to the cash shop answer with flashy skins that don't seem to make any sense with the theme of the rest of the game (based off what we've seen so far), instead of keeping sure the integrity of the aesthetics of the game.
Essentially, "He can't satisfy everyone, so he's going to satisfy the people who want teddy bear mounts instead of people who want immersion and the original theme of the game"
Hence the worries.
We don't know enough yet to be sure of anything, but what little we've seen causes worry. Though it could be worry brought upon BY lack of info of course.
They said Teddy was a one off mistake. Your last two lines are the point of my post. Lack of information on our part. We know they are working hard and want us to discover stuff IN game. I am willing to bet we have seen less then 1% of what they have done so far not what will be in at launch and added after.
If I want realism and immersion I'll go out side. We are all here for short term escapism. I happen to like a lot of the cosmetic stuff(including the death animation) except for the bear. I respect the cosmetics they have shown I don't care for as it is all subjective. People need to take a breath and relax. We have 18-24 months maybe longer to go. Lots more to learn and see.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
... If I want realism and immersion I'll go out side. We are all here for short term escapism. ...
I will say that this is a bad faith statement and a terrible one to make. It's very similar to what someone said recently in a thread about balancing hardcore and casual gamers where they said, "They can find other things to do with the rest of their time in the game (hey, maybe they can spend some of that time playing another game or... getting a job?)"
It's entirely counterproductive. We're all here discussing and sometimes arguing about a game that we are all passionate about, it's a little disheartening to see people trivialize that passion by using the "it's just a game" argument. There is obviously a vast community that cares deeply about immersion and artistic integridy.
"It's just a game" is the mindset that leads to people not getting immersed, as the theme, lore and aesthetic just slowly gets "gameified".
Edit: A lot of people want AoC to be successful, and part of it being successful is it being a good game. A crucial component of a good game for many is how immersive it is.
If I want realism and immersion I'll go out side. We are all here for short term escapism. I happen to like a lot of the cosmetic stuff(including the death animation) except for the bear. I respect the cosmetics they have shown I don't care for as it is all subjective. People need to take a breath and relax. We have 18-24 months maybe longer to go. Lots more to learn and see.
This is all true, but there is a level disappointment when I sign up for a specific type of escapism only to see it that I was wrong about the world based on my initial assessment of the aesthetic. In interviews Steven basically describes a game that is very close to the game of my dreams, from a systems prospective. It is likely my own bias, and the fact that the game is based off a table top world that made me falsely imagine the setting of the game was going to be closer to something similar to a D&D setting of my dreams too. I have accepted that I was wrong about the aesthetic of the game, but that aesthetic is not so far it is not that far from what I like that I won't learn to love it.
Eberron is a D&D campaign setting that took me years to learn to love. I was instantly in love with settings like Forgotten realms and Darksun as a kid, but Eberron really bugged me when it first came out. When DDO launched decades ago I remember being upset that they choose Ebberon over so many other classic D&D settings. It took a while for me to get into the lore and learn to love the world. I thought having airships everywhere was stupid until I learned that the ring around the airship is a bound elemental that is being used to power the airship (Which is brutal AF for the elemental IMO). I thought having Warforged (robots in D&D) was way off brand until I learned their lore.
I say all of this to illustrate that while I am a little disappointed now because of my own misconceptions about the setting, that does not mean I will not learn to love it. I am sure in 18-24 months I will like the lore more than WOW of FFXIVs lore.
The honest truth, is that this shouldn't be an issue given the trailers we have watched, the intentions aspoused and the design of the game...
The reality however is that game hasnt even reached Alpha no NDA stage yet and this is already a MAJOR concern, from we have seen. put all of this into perspective, the game hasnt launched, Monetised Aesthetic augmenting content is being released quite literally monthly, the game has been in development for years... and will in reality be in development for years to come; the implication being that aside what ever has already been released there is yet much more to be released in terms of aesthetic augmentations... and again to bring this to focus, it hasnt even launched yet.
I for one am hoping this is a game I will be investing in long term e.g 10-15 years+, even in WoW my current mmorpg... if you could call it that. They hadn't released even one piece of gear loot or even transmog which was thematically divergent content until what like 6-8 years following the games release?
and yet in this situation we have bunnys, bears, angels, demons and corgis running around Pre-Alpha....
People may sweep this under the rug, and say its just aesthetics, peoples tastes are different, this game isnt meant to cater to everyone... but the reality is this is the one mmorpg which was meant to bring us back to our roots, the one which we could recapture that feeling of immersion and actual existence in this high-fantasy universe...
Im sorry if im rambling, however when I hear I will be leveling next to a; corgi-riding demon wearing mushroom armour as a dwarf fighting off bandits in the snowy tundra I just want to throw down my axe head to the local inn and sink 5-6 beers.
As another user posted, the fact alone that race literally no longer matters in this mmorpg when you can change it with a cosmetic is thoroughly depressing... and this is as I point out again Pre-Alpha, we have years of development and gameplay to come all of which will ride tandem with; cosmetic augmentations which will be released monthly and push the envelope further and further as they already have... if we are pre-alpha and race already means nothing, you can bet 2 years post-launch I dont think its ridiculous to hypothesize that players will be asking for a skip-button for the character creation pannel as its taking up too much of their time... bring on the load-outs!
All of this in a universe which is meant to be built on immersion, where people care about their characters, their guilds, their nodes, their cities, their universe. When in reality it is starting to sound like any other mmorpg with corgi-riding demon wearing mushroom armoured dwarves.
Long story short, and the TL/DR from one drunken dwarf, please let immersion be an actually relevant element within this game... hell, its damn near vital to its success, without immersion noone will care about their characters cities or nodes. The reality is immersion has become irrelevant in other mmorpgs, and thats why players jump ship at the next new hyped game, This game is meant to be our new home, one we dont want to leave, one we feel tied to and immersed within. At a minimum what is needed is the implementation of a "Hide Cash Shop Transmogs" button and set that setting to default.
I for one am hoping this is a game I will be investing in long term e.g 10-15 years+, even in WoW my current mmorpg... if you could call it that. They hadn't released even one piece of gear loot or even transmog which was thematically divergent content until what like 6-8 years following the games release?
You don't have the problem I do with the: "Love rocket", "Tyraels Charger", "Random x-mans outfits", just to name a few problem assets off the top of my head, or the fact that after 15 years they refuse to fix their gross ass textures so that they match the games current aesthetic? (Which would be dirt cheap for them to do) WOW has next to zero immersive qualities to it. It might very well be one of the least immersive MMOs on the current market. I agree with all of your concerns about Ashes. They are perfectly valid, but give the devil its due here... WOW is a hot mess with murlocks running around in space marine outfits, and awful slapstick humor at every turn.
I for one am hoping this is a game I will be investing in long term e.g 10-15 years+, even in WoW my current mmorpg... if you could call it that. They hadn't released even one piece of gear loot or even transmog which was thematically divergent content until what like 6-8 years following the games release?
You don't have the problem I do with the: "Love rocket", "Tyraels Charger", "Random x-mans outfits", just to name a few problem assets off the top of my head, or the fact that after 15 years they refuse to fix their gross ass textures so that they match the games current aesthetic? (Which would be dirt cheap for them to do) WOW has next to zero immersive qualities to it. It might very well be one of the least immersive MMOs on the current market. I agree with all of your concerns about Ashes. They are perfectly valid, but give the devil its due here... WOW is a hot mess with murlocks running around in space marine outfits, and awful slapstick humor at every turn.
I think you might have misread him, he was saying WoW didn't have "theme creep" until like 6 years after release and that now it's a hot mess, which is pretty accurate.
I agree with his whole post, it's such a bad look that we already have monthly cosmetics in the earliest stages of alpha, and that some have been outright anti-theme (like the teddy bear skin, which even if they've recognized it after the fact, why did they think it was acceptable in the first place) and some close to it.
I for one am hoping this is a game I will be investing in long term e.g 10-15 years+, even in WoW my current mmorpg... if you could call it that. They hadn't released even one piece of gear loot or even transmog which was thematically divergent content until what like 6-8 years following the games release?
You don't have the problem I do with the: "Love rocket", "Tyraels Charger", "Random x-mans outfits", just to name a few problem assets off the top of my head, or the fact that after 15 years they refuse to fix their gross ass textures so that they match the games current aesthetic? (Which would be dirt cheap for them to do) WOW has next to zero immersive qualities to it. It might very well be one of the least immersive MMOs on the current market. I agree with all of your concerns about Ashes. They are perfectly valid, but give the devil its due here... WOW is a hot mess with murlocks running around in space marine outfits, and awful slapstick humor at every turn.
It's a hot mess post cash shop. But Vanilla up through the first tier sets into TBC all fit fine, some zany costumes but that's all they were, an in combat everyone looked decent. I'd agree that first 4-6 years had no problems until this cespool of a trend started to bleed over.
T'was an attempt at humor, by stating exaggerated half truths. I did say I agree with @Archeon.
Just trying to point out that WOW does have its silliness, but y'all are right. It was not always that way.
WOW is not as silly as lets say... a flying bat mobile that seats 4 weebs at a time...
I think the argument needs to be considered that yes some people do like all of these aesthetic transmogs and argumentations, however many, and I would argue substantially more do not. On a holistic level the majority of them do not resonate with the actual intent of the game, how do we know this?
Because they literally arent featured in any of the imagery which is being released which captures the spirit of the world we are meant to be entering. Half of the youtube comments on the cinematic videos and trailers talk about how immersive and beautiful this all looks, I wonder how many comments will follow if the next trailer releases with half of the cash-shop mounts being shown... setting the bear aside.
Or if the next round of gameplay footage shows players running around as Victorian Kings and Queens or demons and angels; while they are still thematically meant to be orcs or wood-elves.
The reality is that the game is intentionally not being shown with these aesthetic distortions because its fairly obvious that the vast majority of people dont want these in the game, and their inclusion will instantly shatter any semblance of immersion or aesthetic continuity within the game; just as it has with other mmorpg's such as wow.
Again, yes I accept that some players want them, and yes I accept that some people like them... and I aboslutely recognize their significance in funding the upkeep and development of the game... however I absolutely reject that other sub-paying players should be forced to endure them when the game is not being portrayed with them, and that the decsion to not depic them in promotional content is absolutely intentional.
Players should be able to log into the game and experience the world which is literally shown in the advertised material, could you imagine if you for example bought a pair of white sneakers, opened the box; which clearly displayed them as white sneakers, and discovered what was inside are fluro orange sneakers... then asked the retailer why the end product doesnt match the advertised product in the slightest and their reply was, "well hey they are still sneakers right?"
Players should be able to log in to the immersive, exciting and awesome world which we have all been clammering for and hoping to call our new home and see exactly the pictures videos and promotional content have all shown us. If new players saw armies of rampant Victorian Kings and Queens riding Corgis across Verra I guarantee they would run in the other direction...
The decision on whether people want to view their own or other people's cash-shop purchases should be intentional and decisive, if players want to see them or use them they should definitely have the option to activate them within a graphical display setting in options, however I dont feel that the entire player base should be subject to other players aesthetic tastes especially when they are tangibly immersion breaking. I dont know about you but Im here to fight the corruption taking hold of vera and starting an actually immersive experience which I hope will last for years... not play "Tropical Island Dress Up" simulator... and I dont want to have to group with a Dwarf masquerading as a demon in level 5 starting zones, please ensure immersion stays relevant.
The game needs to have cash-shop purchases being visible be a toggle-able option and the default of this option absolutely needs to be off.
Cheers
Yet another long-winded and annoying rant from
Your friendly Drunken Dwarf.
The reality is that the game is intentionally not being shown with these aesthetic distortions because its fairly obvious that the vast majority of people dont want these in the game, and their inclusion will instantly shatter any semblance of immersion or aesthetic continuity within the game; just as it has with other mmorpg's such as wow.
insaneloliMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2021
That is one of my greatest fears as someone that has invested a reasonable amount of money. I want to game to be even only half of what i hope it is so the insane amount of cosmetics already out feels like they have turned their attention the wrong way to some extent and makes me fear a little that on that first official release day when everyone logs in it will look like logging onto your average crowded PSO2 lobby with an overkill otherworldly looking people everywhere.
I love all kinds of strange cosmetics so i would be less bothered than a lot of other people but as a i want the game to succeed and surpass current popular mmo's like world of warcraft and final fantasy 14 i am very way of anything that could scare off other players.
I think they Angel/demon Ice/fire skins'd make really badass looking boss's for quests too. It's not as if the artists don't have talent, just that the creative direction of making players, if only a minority of them, look like this from day 1 is really painful to think about. I super hope they reconsider their model and resource direction.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think they Angel/demon Ice/fire skins'd make really badass looking boss's for quests too. It's not as if the artists don't have talent, just that the creative direction of making players, if only a minority of them, look like this from day 1 is really painful to think about. I super hope they reconsider their model and resource direction.
I know back when the backlash of stuffington happened steven did say he would make those items less over the top so who knows.
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
...
I know back when the backlash of stuffington happened steven did say he would make those items less over the top so who knows.
Yea but as we all are or should be aware, people lose their resolve over time. We've seen it happen already, we will see it happen again.
And when you start off on that slippery slope, you can only go down.
Agreed that's why when they release skins that people don't like we should tell them
But on top of that, they have to be willing to listen to that feedback, recognize why it had negative feedback, and keep that in mind in future endeavors.
Edit: Not that I don't think IS will do that, but even the most celebrated studios have fallen to bad practices.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
...
I know back when the backlash of stuffington happened steven did say he would make those items less over the top so who knows.
Yea but as we all are or should be aware, people lose their resolve over time. We've seen it happen already, we will see it happen again.
And when you start off on that slippery slope, you can only go down.
Agreed that's why when they release skins that people don't like we should tell them
But on top of that, they have to be willing to listen to that feedback, recognize why it had negative feedback, and keep that in mind in future endeavors.
Very true. I still have faith that they have taken what the community have said to heart and carry it
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
There has not been any mention or indication of things like Cars or god damn motorcycles has there? I can ignore a costume to some degree if there's a group of people.. But when half of a massive pile of people in a city are on huge, obnoxious, steaming or flashing mounts my visual diarrhea limit is exceeded.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There has not been any mention or indication of things like Cars or god damn motorcycles has there? I can ignore a costume to some degree if there's a group of people.. But when half of a massive pile of people in a city are on huge, obnoxious, steaming or flashing mounts my visual diarrhea limit is exceeded.
No, steven has said this is fantasy and not steampunk or sci-fi, that's the same reason there is now black powerder weapons
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
agree with most of these comments but i will point out, there were only 275 ish leader of men packages sold? id guess there will be about 30 servers or so? and most of these guys will play on the same server so most likely you will have less than a 1% chance to run into one of these angels/demons, id love this to be at least level locked till max level but i really don't think it will be as bad as people think, also the voyager + packages/skins are popular but lets be honest how many people have 400$ to throw at some cosmetics, a vast majority of the game will not be using these from launch
Comments
Now this I can absolutely agree with. Like I have been saying, people have different tastes and that is perfectly fine. Some sort of an option for what we choose to see and not would be great, if possible.
And maybe someone in the dev team will read through this and see that we are worried and have valid concerns about it.
Yeah, "theme creep" is a really good term.
I have noticed that even when working with small groups. Everyone has cool ideas they want to bring to the table. Some of them may go against any the original vision for the project, but are too good to leave out. Overtime the original art direction is eroded, and the production is its own new thing. Which is fine to me personally.
Now that I have seen more of the things like the Angel racial skin, I am more accepting of the "fantastical" art direction. The art direction of Tera and Aion was never my favorite, but it also never upset me. I used the word "Whimsical" a lot to describe those games, because to me that was the best word for the style. Ashes leans a little in that direction now, but not as far. Tera takes place in a dream on a turtles back or something silly like that. Some people like it, I prefer a little more verisimilitude, but it never stopped me from playing tera.
I would be lying if I said my favorite asset in ashes "Snail-boi" was not completely whimsical. So maybe I do like whimsical more than I think I do. I guess as long as we don't get beach attire we should count our blessings.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
But getting ganked by a guy with a snowman head riding a plushie pink pony is where I'm likely to rethink the value of my subscription...
I think the teddy bear mount is the bigger problem than the demon. Is that a real mount skin?
Edit: It's a real skin.
Some place it is quoted that they want people to show off their gear and you will NOT be able to turn it off on your end. Except for large PvP battles where it might need to be done for performance concerns.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Appearance_slots
A "default player appearance" may be automatically applied during sieges or other large scale battles to improve client-side performance.[5][6]
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cosmetics
We offer cosmetics for players who wish to support the project early. The exclusive nature of the limited availability is something I think collectors value. If you buy cosmetics as an MMO player, I know I enjoyed if the cosmetic is rare and not every girl at the party is wearing the same dress. In addition, these cosmetics are used to populate the world through NPC variants and color/texture changes so their offering aligns with our production schedule. The good thing about these packs is they contain no P2W advantages and there is no box cost, so from a mechanics standpoint you do not need to buy them to excel in the game on launch. And also, there are comparable and subjectively more grand cosmetics achievable in game as well.[10] – Steven Sharif
Is there an answer that satisfies everyone? Nope. And that's ok. We are open and transparent with our philosophies and business model. You know what you are getting with Ashes and to me, given my experiences in other games, it is a nice breath of fresh air.[34] – Steven Sharif
What I was saying is that's a slippery slope that is very easy for developers to slip off into
All of that is true and makes sense, however in practice we've seen a teddy bear mount and overly flashy skins that completely change your race, corgi with a red cloak pet skin, and we're only 1% in.
Edit: Steven said you can't satisfy everyone, so his plan seems to be to cater to the cash shop answer with flashy skins that don't seem to make any sense with the theme of the rest of the game (based off what we've seen so far), instead of keeping sure the integrity of the aesthetics of the game.
Essentially, "He can't satisfy everyone, so he's going to satisfy the people who want teddy bear mounts instead of people who want immersion and the original theme of the game"
Hence the worries.
We don't know enough yet to be sure of anything, but what little we've seen causes worry. Though it could be worry brought upon BY lack of info of course.
They said Teddy was a one off mistake. Your last two lines are the point of my post. Lack of information on our part. We know they are working hard and want us to discover stuff IN game. I am willing to bet we have seen less then 1% of what they have done so far not what will be in at launch and added after.
If I want realism and immersion I'll go out side. We are all here for short term escapism. I happen to like a lot of the cosmetic stuff(including the death animation) except for the bear. I respect the cosmetics they have shown I don't care for as it is all subjective. People need to take a breath and relax. We have 18-24 months maybe longer to go. Lots more to learn and see.
I will say that this is a bad faith statement and a terrible one to make. It's very similar to what someone said recently in a thread about balancing hardcore and casual gamers where they said, "They can find other things to do with the rest of their time in the game (hey, maybe they can spend some of that time playing another game or... getting a job?)"
It's entirely counterproductive. We're all here discussing and sometimes arguing about a game that we are all passionate about, it's a little disheartening to see people trivialize that passion by using the "it's just a game" argument. There is obviously a vast community that cares deeply about immersion and artistic integridy.
"It's just a game" is the mindset that leads to people not getting immersed, as the theme, lore and aesthetic just slowly gets "gameified".
Edit: A lot of people want AoC to be successful, and part of it being successful is it being a good game. A crucial component of a good game for many is how immersive it is.
This is all true, but there is a level disappointment when I sign up for a specific type of escapism only to see it that I was wrong about the world based on my initial assessment of the aesthetic. In interviews Steven basically describes a game that is very close to the game of my dreams, from a systems prospective. It is likely my own bias, and the fact that the game is based off a table top world that made me falsely imagine the setting of the game was going to be closer to something similar to a D&D setting of my dreams too. I have accepted that I was wrong about the aesthetic of the game, but that aesthetic is not so far it is not that far from what I like that I won't learn to love it.
Eberron is a D&D campaign setting that took me years to learn to love. I was instantly in love with settings like Forgotten realms and Darksun as a kid, but Eberron really bugged me when it first came out. When DDO launched decades ago I remember being upset that they choose Ebberon over so many other classic D&D settings. It took a while for me to get into the lore and learn to love the world. I thought having airships everywhere was stupid until I learned that the ring around the airship is a bound elemental that is being used to power the airship (Which is brutal AF for the elemental IMO). I thought having Warforged (robots in D&D) was way off brand until I learned their lore.
I say all of this to illustrate that while I am a little disappointed now because of my own misconceptions about the setting, that does not mean I will not learn to love it. I am sure in 18-24 months I will like the lore more than WOW of FFXIVs lore.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
The reality however is that game hasnt even reached Alpha no NDA stage yet and this is already a MAJOR concern, from we have seen. put all of this into perspective, the game hasnt launched, Monetised Aesthetic augmenting content is being released quite literally monthly, the game has been in development for years... and will in reality be in development for years to come; the implication being that aside what ever has already been released there is yet much more to be released in terms of aesthetic augmentations... and again to bring this to focus, it hasnt even launched yet.
I for one am hoping this is a game I will be investing in long term e.g 10-15 years+, even in WoW my current mmorpg... if you could call it that. They hadn't released even one piece of gear loot or even transmog which was thematically divergent content until what like 6-8 years following the games release?
and yet in this situation we have bunnys, bears, angels, demons and corgis running around Pre-Alpha....
People may sweep this under the rug, and say its just aesthetics, peoples tastes are different, this game isnt meant to cater to everyone... but the reality is this is the one mmorpg which was meant to bring us back to our roots, the one which we could recapture that feeling of immersion and actual existence in this high-fantasy universe...
Im sorry if im rambling, however when I hear I will be leveling next to a; corgi-riding demon wearing mushroom armour as a dwarf fighting off bandits in the snowy tundra I just want to throw down my axe head to the local inn and sink 5-6 beers.
As another user posted, the fact alone that race literally no longer matters in this mmorpg when you can change it with a cosmetic is thoroughly depressing... and this is as I point out again Pre-Alpha, we have years of development and gameplay to come all of which will ride tandem with; cosmetic augmentations which will be released monthly and push the envelope further and further as they already have... if we are pre-alpha and race already means nothing, you can bet 2 years post-launch I dont think its ridiculous to hypothesize that players will be asking for a skip-button for the character creation pannel as its taking up too much of their time... bring on the load-outs!
All of this in a universe which is meant to be built on immersion, where people care about their characters, their guilds, their nodes, their cities, their universe. When in reality it is starting to sound like any other mmorpg with corgi-riding demon wearing mushroom armoured dwarves.
Long story short, and the TL/DR from one drunken dwarf, please let immersion be an actually relevant element within this game... hell, its damn near vital to its success, without immersion noone will care about their characters cities or nodes. The reality is immersion has become irrelevant in other mmorpgs, and thats why players jump ship at the next new hyped game, This game is meant to be our new home, one we dont want to leave, one we feel tied to and immersed within. At a minimum what is needed is the implementation of a "Hide Cash Shop Transmogs" button and set that setting to default.
Cheers,
Your friendly Drunken Dwarf.
You don't have the problem I do with the: "Love rocket", "Tyraels Charger", "Random x-mans outfits", just to name a few problem assets off the top of my head, or the fact that after 15 years they refuse to fix their gross ass textures so that they match the games current aesthetic? (Which would be dirt cheap for them to do) WOW has next to zero immersive qualities to it. It might very well be one of the least immersive MMOs on the current market. I agree with all of your concerns about Ashes. They are perfectly valid, but give the devil its due here... WOW is a hot mess with murlocks running around in space marine outfits, and awful slapstick humor at every turn.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I think you might have misread him, he was saying WoW didn't have "theme creep" until like 6 years after release and that now it's a hot mess, which is pretty accurate.
I agree with his whole post, it's such a bad look that we already have monthly cosmetics in the earliest stages of alpha, and that some have been outright anti-theme (like the teddy bear skin, which even if they've recognized it after the fact, why did they think it was acceptable in the first place) and some close to it.
It's a hot mess post cash shop. But Vanilla up through the first tier sets into TBC all fit fine, some zany costumes but that's all they were, an in combat everyone looked decent. I'd agree that first 4-6 years had no problems until this cespool of a trend started to bleed over.
T'was an attempt at humor, by stating exaggerated half truths. I did say I agree with @Archeon.
Just trying to point out that WOW does have its silliness, but y'all are right. It was not always that way.
WOW is not as silly as lets say... a flying bat mobile that seats 4 weebs at a time...
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Because they literally arent featured in any of the imagery which is being released which captures the spirit of the world we are meant to be entering. Half of the youtube comments on the cinematic videos and trailers talk about how immersive and beautiful this all looks, I wonder how many comments will follow if the next trailer releases with half of the cash-shop mounts being shown... setting the bear aside.
Or if the next round of gameplay footage shows players running around as Victorian Kings and Queens or demons and angels; while they are still thematically meant to be orcs or wood-elves.
The reality is that the game is intentionally not being shown with these aesthetic distortions because its fairly obvious that the vast majority of people dont want these in the game, and their inclusion will instantly shatter any semblance of immersion or aesthetic continuity within the game; just as it has with other mmorpg's such as wow.
Again, yes I accept that some players want them, and yes I accept that some people like them... and I aboslutely recognize their significance in funding the upkeep and development of the game... however I absolutely reject that other sub-paying players should be forced to endure them when the game is not being portrayed with them, and that the decsion to not depic them in promotional content is absolutely intentional.
Players should be able to log into the game and experience the world which is literally shown in the advertised material, could you imagine if you for example bought a pair of white sneakers, opened the box; which clearly displayed them as white sneakers, and discovered what was inside are fluro orange sneakers... then asked the retailer why the end product doesnt match the advertised product in the slightest and their reply was, "well hey they are still sneakers right?"
Players should be able to log in to the immersive, exciting and awesome world which we have all been clammering for and hoping to call our new home and see exactly the pictures videos and promotional content have all shown us. If new players saw armies of rampant Victorian Kings and Queens riding Corgis across Verra I guarantee they would run in the other direction...
The decision on whether people want to view their own or other people's cash-shop purchases should be intentional and decisive, if players want to see them or use them they should definitely have the option to activate them within a graphical display setting in options, however I dont feel that the entire player base should be subject to other players aesthetic tastes especially when they are tangibly immersion breaking. I dont know about you but Im here to fight the corruption taking hold of vera and starting an actually immersive experience which I hope will last for years... not play "Tropical Island Dress Up" simulator... and I dont want to have to group with a Dwarf masquerading as a demon in level 5 starting zones, please ensure immersion stays relevant.
The game needs to have cash-shop purchases being visible be a toggle-able option and the default of this option absolutely needs to be off.
Cheers
Yet another long-winded and annoying rant from
Your friendly Drunken Dwarf.
Once again, you hit the crux of it.
I love all kinds of strange cosmetics so i would be less bothered than a lot of other people but as a i want the game to succeed and surpass current popular mmo's like world of warcraft and final fantasy 14 i am very way of anything that could scare off other players.
I know back when the backlash of stuffington happened steven did say he would make those items less over the top so who knows.
Yea but as we all are or should be aware, people lose their resolve over time. We've seen it happen already, we will see it happen again.
And when you start off on that slippery slope, you can only go down.
Agreed that's why when they release skins that people don't like we should tell them
But on top of that, they have to be willing to listen to that feedback, recognize why it had negative feedback, and keep that in mind in future endeavors.
Edit: Not that I don't think IS will do that, but even the most celebrated studios have fallen to bad practices.
Very true. I still have faith that they have taken what the community have said to heart and carry it
No, steven has said this is fantasy and not steampunk or sci-fi, that's the same reason there is now black powerder weapons