Angel and demon racial skin

insaneloliinsaneloli Member, Leader of Men
Hey

I hope i placed this in the right place. Personally i am curious if there is at any point going to be a preview of what that angel and demon racial skin some of the kickstart packs mention looks like.

Is there any info on those so far?
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Comments

  • maouwmaouw Member
    Voila:
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Racial_skins

    Concept art is there.
    Most models have been true to their concept art.
    (Props to the modellers!!)
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • KhronusKhronus Member
    Unfortunately I joined last July. Those skins are making me jealous AF.
  • crownofthornscrownofthorns Member, Settler
    I worry about the flashiness and immersion on some of this stuff. I think a lot of it looks great just worry about how its going to actually look when we're out traveling the world and your buddy named Stonecoldsteve shows up with a demon skin. Fornite vibes.
    OhCHgZZ.png
    CROWN- MMORPG player & fan since 1995.
  • ArcheonArcheon Member
    I worry about the flashiness and immersion on some of this stuff. I think a lot of it looks great just worry about how its going to actually look when we're out traveling the world and your buddy named Stonecoldsteve shows up with a demon skin. Fornite vibes.

    This is quite literally the most worrying aspect of development for me atm, the game looks incredible in all other aspects, and I am so excited for it.... but what happened to the realism?

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Gear_appearance
    "We're going for kind of a more realistic look; not necessarily realistic setting, but we want our characters to have weight and kind of feel like they're there.[4] – Jeffrey Bard"

    How is this game going to feel even slightly immersive leveling in the starting zones next to an angel or demon...
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men
    Archeon wrote: »
    I worry about the flashiness and immersion on some of this stuff. I think a lot of it looks great just worry about how its going to actually look when we're out traveling the world and your buddy named Stonecoldsteve shows up with a demon skin. Fornite vibes.

    This is quite literally the most worrying aspect of development for me atm, the game looks incredible in all other aspects, and I am so excited for it.... but what happened to the realism?

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Gear_appearance
    "We're going for kind of a more realistic look; not necessarily realistic setting, but we want our characters to have weight and kind of feel like they're there.[4] – Jeffrey Bard"

    How is this game going to feel even slightly immersive leveling in the starting zones next to an angel or demon...

    the same could be said about any cosmetic item
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • ArcheonArcheon Member
    edited April 8
    Nagash wrote: »
    the same could be said about any cosmetic item

    Actually... It absolutely could not... at all,

    it is fairly easy to create cosmetics which in some way look authentic to the world or realistic especially given the visual flavour they have already introduced to the world.

    Trying to establish a false equivalency between what could be some cool looking; realistic Pyrian or Dünirn armour which speaks to the lore and universe around it, to quite literally looking like an angel or demon is beyond ridiculous...
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member
    Archeon wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    the same could be said about any cosmetic item

    Actually... It absolutely could not... at all,

    it is fairly easy to create cosmetics which in some way look authentic to the world or realistic especially given the visual flavour they have already introduced to the world.

    Trying to establish a false equivalency between what could be some cool looking; realistic Pyrian or Dünirn armour which speaks to the lore and universe around it, to quite literally looking like an angel or demon is beyond ridiculous...

    Immersion exists on a scale ranging from pong to "Are we living in a simulation?" Ashes is a world where I can ride my snail-boi horse into battle and slap someone with a sword and turn them into a pile of ashes. A handful of people looking like an angel or deamon is par for the course. It may be a little less realistic than I initially wanted myself, but it is not beyond "ridiculous".
    CctsKnC.png Verra-similitude
  • ArcheonArcheon Member
    edited April 8
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Immersion exists on a scale ranging from pong to "Are we living in a simulation?" Ashes is a world where I can ride my snail-boi horse into battle and slap someone with a sword and turn them into a pile of ashes. A handful of people looking like an angel or deamon is par for the course. It may be a little less realistic than I initially wanted myself, but it is not beyond "ridiculous".

    Well I mean given that new cosmetics are released monthly and have been for years, the prevalence of them within the player base is fairly clear, they are obviously profitable and consistently purchased or why would they be produced? The reality is cosmetics won’t be the exception they will be the norm, and yet the universe is slated as medieval high fantasy, in none of the promotional videos do they show the players using them so the quasi-realism is the intent however cosmetic abundance will be the reality. If the intention is that we will see players running around as angels and demons then why don’t the promotional videos show it...

    The reality is simply that the monetisation of skins has caused a scope creep in artistic intent, it happens in games all the time when profit is there... I mean compare wow classic to wow retail.

    My point is this needs to be addressed and redressed through a button to disable store bought aesthetics with them being disabled being the default.

    Either that or the promotional videos need to start reflecting the reality and showing every second character using immersion breaking unrealistic cosmetics...

  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men
    Archeon wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    the same could be said about any cosmetic item

    Actually... It absolutely could not... at all,

    it is fairly easy to create cosmetics which in some way look authentic to the world or realistic especially given the visual flavour they have already introduced to the world.

    Trying to establish a false equivalency between what could be some cool looking; realistic Pyrian or Dünirn armour which speaks to the lore and universe around it, to quite literally looking like an angel or demon is beyond ridiculous...

    And what is to say the angel and demon skins are not authentic to the world?

    Also, you have seen some of the items realised so far? some o these fit the theme

    Stuffertons.png
    Bonestrider.png
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    675px-Face_of_Sorrow.png
    675px-Timely_Deliverance.png
    675px-Flawless_Finery.png
    Royalty_costume.png



    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member
    Archeon wrote: »
    The reality is simply that the monetisation of skins has caused a scope creep in artistic intent, it happens in games all the time when profit is there... I mean compare wow classic to wow retail.
    I would say be grateful for the monetization system Ashes has chosen. Even WOW a titan of the industry allowed itself to get bought by activation. The success of the monthly cosmetics allows them to stay financially independent in a cut throat industry. It is about more than profit, it is about them being able to afford to make the game we all want. Without the monthly cosmetics they might have to turn to outside interests to fund the game or allow themselves to get bought out. Which would lead to a worst cash shop and give the DEVs less creative freedom of their game.

    The immersion is still going to be greater than pong but less than the simulation we may be living it. I know the cosmetics are not ideal, but it is better to me than the alternative. See ArcheAge... ArcheAge Unchained, Lineage 2 classic...
    CctsKnC.png Verra-similitude
  • RhuellRhuell Member
    Is there a way to determine how many individual users have purchased cosmetic items?

    If so, great, we can get an accurate understanding of how many people are going to have cosmetics.

    If not, i'ma guesstimate now. In the grand scheme of potential player base, fewer than you think. Most people who end up playing this game are going to be those who did not purchase the monthly cosmetics.

    On top of that, there are going to be head start exclusive servers which will include any of the founders (for now) who want to get in the game a few days early to test the game's launch. (From what I understand, these head start servers will not be available for players who do not have founder status). These founders will all have cosmetics and probably include a solid chunk of the cosmetic purchasing population.

    So, I don't think this is going to be quite as noticeable as some people are making it out to be.

    And even if it is, I guess you can always consider some of these sets to be pre Verra. Our characters did have lives before coming here, after all.
  • insaneloliinsaneloli Member, Leader of Men
    All i know is that i plan on making an skeleton summoning necromancer but use the angel racial skin for the perfect contrast.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men
    insaneloli wrote: »
    All i know is that i plan on making an skeleton summoning necromancer but use the angel racial skin for the perfect contrast.

    That sounds amazing :D
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Yeh so logging in and immediately seeing a demon ride a big fluffy teddy bear is about as trash korean MMO as you can probably get.

    The most concerning thing is, it's still early on in devlopment, so plenty more opportunities to make the game feel like a childs toy pit.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men
    Yeh so logging in and immediately seeing a demon ride a big fluffy teddy bear is about as trash korean MMO as you can probably get.

    The most concerning thing is, it's still early on in devlopment, so plenty more opportunities to make the game feel like a childs toy pit.

    Just blame it on magic

    its-magic-i-aint-gotta-explain-shit2.jpg
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men
    edited April 9
    Nagash wrote: »
    Yeh so logging in and immediately seeing a demon ride a big fluffy teddy bear is about as trash korean MMO as you can probably get.

    The most concerning thing is, it's still early on in devlopment, so plenty more opportunities to make the game feel like a childs toy pit.

    Just blame it on magic

    its-magic-i-aint-gotta-explain-shit2.jpg

    Magic is always the answer.
    k2U15J3.png
  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited April 9
    Yeh so logging in and immediately seeing a demon ride a big fluffy teddy bear is about as trash korean MMO as you can probably get.

    The most concerning thing is, it's still early on in devlopment, so plenty more opportunities to make the game feel like a childs toy pit.

    I'm with you on this.

    Adding these kinds of cosmetics is always the start of a slippery slope, and it seems AoC is starting on the slope from the get go.

    We'll just have to wait and see how prominent it is.

    Edit: To top it off, the mere existence of these kind of "racial skins" makes racial identity much less of a factor.
    "I chose elf but really I'm angel because skin"

    It's such a terrible look on IS and AoC and is really the only thing so far that actually worries me, because if they are being this nonchalant about racial and mount (via mount skins) immersion then where else are they going to slowly push that envelope?

    I'd like to say they're smart and are going to limit themselves, but I asked in the last Q and A about how strict to the Art Bible the artists have to be and my answer was "they have lots of personal leeway".
    So essentially at each step of the creation process, a team member has the chance to add in some kind of personal flavour that could further expand what is considered "right" for the world until we have a jumbled mess. A bit hyperbolic maybe, but still a valid concern.
  • insaneloliinsaneloli Member, Leader of Men
    Well to be fair overall the amount of people with that skin is going to be a minority in the game and i am not aware of any other racial skins existing.
  • DreohDreoh Member
    That's very true, but even the monthly cosmetics seem to expand what could be considered native to Verra every month.

    We just recently had "British formal attire" and "Corgi" as a cosmetic.
  • NeliryaNelirya Member, Founder
    edited April 9
    Dreoh wrote: »
    That's very true, but even the monthly cosmetics seem to expand what could be considered native to Verra every month.

    We just recently had "British formal attire" and "Corgi" as a cosmetic.

    I thought that the dress in that months cosmetic was absolutely beautiful! So yeah, people clearly do have different opinions and tastes. I personally am very happy that IS has decided not to cater to only one set style, either very realistic or completely over-the-top bikini style. I appreciate variety.

    As to whether or not a specific style can be considered "native to Verra" I think Steven and the IS team are better judges of this than we are.
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  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited April 9
    Nelirya wrote: »
    I thought that the dress in that months cosmetic was absolutely beautiful! So yeah, people clearly do have different opinions and tastes. I personally am very happy that IS has decided not to cater to only one set style, either very realistic or completely over-the-top bikini style.

    Sure, I agree that people find different things appealing. But does Sanctum/Verra use "British attire", or will it literally just be players who wear the skin who you'll see in it? Does it have corgis, or is it players that have the corgis?
    Nelirya wrote: »
    As to whether or not a specific style can be considered "native to Verra" I think Steven and the IS team are better judges of this than we are.

    You're right of course, but sometimes in game development it's easy to slip in to the "This would be neat to add" mindset, and because artists are given a lot of leeway, they could slowly lose sight of the original vision until it's watered down with so many options and styles that it lacks flavour.

    All I'm saying is I hope they aren't adding things on whims and are staying true to the vision that was intended.

    Edit: Visions can change of course, which is also fine. The difference is, are the whims expanding the vision, or is the vision changing with purpose.
  • the fact that steven once said, games companies don't need more than their monthly subscription, berated archeage for their design choices that ruined the game and then proceeds to be guilty of both, this early, yikes.

    It's a shame because im really really rooting for the success of this game, but everytime they release cutesie cosmetics they are killing their player base a small number of people at a time. The lineage II ultima online lovers that initially backed this game are being left out to dry in favor of gamers that prefer to play dressup over playing a game that has artistic meaningful substance.
  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited April 9
    ... a game that has artistic meaningful substance.

    This is the crux of it.

    Edit:
    the fact that steven once said, games companies don't need more than their monthly subscription, berated archeage for their design choices that ruined the game and then proceeds to be guilty of both, this early, yikes.

    This is literally what I was talking about in my last comment. It's easy for developers to slip into easy bad practices.
  • Dreoh wrote: »
    ... a game that has artistic meaningful substance.

    This is the crux of it.

    Edit:
    the fact that steven once said, games companies don't need more than their monthly subscription, berated archeage for their design choices that ruined the game and then proceeds to be guilty of both, this early, yikes.

    This is literally what I was talking about in my last comment. It's easy for developers to slip into easy bad practices.

    It'd be really nice to hear from the team if it's going to be possible to turn this off.

    It's been mentioned that it'd be really rough if you're forced to level alongside unlored characters like demons and mushroom samurai from an immersion standpoint.

    This isn't mentioning that alot of resources from character designers are currently going into cash grab cosmetics instead of in game armor, clothing and enemy character models. One has to imagine it's quite a resource drain, one I'd be OK to forgive if the Kickstart wasnt 2.5 million dollars over goal.
  • NeliryaNelirya Member, Founder
    edited April 9
    I don't really want to start any arguements or anything, but would you at least be open to the idea that "artistic meaningful substance" means different things to different individuals? For me, beautiful dresses and elegant armour designs classes as the above, for others that is too much, clearly.

    As such, is it not better to try finding a good balance between both while keeping as much as possible to the vision of the game, instead of trying to please only one or the other side? So far I can't say that many of the cosmetics have been too radical in either way (other than maybe that Bear mount, but that's again just my personal opinion).

    I just never understand how some individuals kick up a fuss as soon as something doesn't meet their taste 100%.
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  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited April 9
    Nelirya wrote: »
    I don't really want to start any arguements or anything, but would you at least be open to the idea that "artistic meaningful substance" means different things to different individuals? For me, beautiful dresses and elegant armour designs classes as the above, for others that is too much, clearly.

    The difference is what does it mean to the world, not to the players.
    When you cater to the infinite variability of personal taste, you end up with watered down aesthetics and ridiculousness everywhere.
    Nelirya wrote: »
    As such, is it not better to try finding a good balance between both while keeping as much as possible to the vision of the game, instead of trying to please only one or the other side? So far I can't say that many of the cosmetics have been too radical in either way (other than maybe that Bear mount, but that's again just my personal opinion).

    I just never understand how some individuals kick up a fuss as soon as something doesn't meet their taste 100%.

    It's not that there can't be elegant dresses or anything like that, it's the question of "does the style fit the rest of the game?"

    You wouldn't make a feudal Chinese "Romance of the three kingdoms" inspired game and then accept "Western Tuxedo" cosmetics because some players like tuxedos. They don't fit the feudal chinese theme.

    Likewise, does "British Dresses" and "corgi" fit the Sanctum/Verra theme?
  • Nelirya wrote: »
    I don't really want to start any arguements or anything, but would you at least be open to the idea that "artistic meaningful substance" means different things to different individuals? For me, beautiful dresses and elegant armour designs classes as the above, for others that is too much, clearly.

    As such, is it not better to try finding a good balance between both while keeping as much as possible to the vision of the game, instead of trying to please only one or the other side? So far I can't say that many of the cosmetics have been too radical in either way (other than maybe that Bear mount, but that's again just my personal opinion).

    I just never understand how some individuals kick up a fuss as soon as something doesn't meet their taste 100%.

    I'd be more than happy if there's an option to turn this off, and give the option to those of us that don't like to be surrounded by the local circus 24/7.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member
    Dreoh wrote: »
    It's not that there can't be elegant dresses or anything like that, it's the question of "does the style fit the rest of the game?"

    Did you not disagree with me a few days ago when I thought the ashes death was less realistic than I thought they were going for?

    I mean I agree with you here too, but it seems like the same thing to me. The DEV team decides to reduce realism in favor of a gain in creativity. Immersion takes a hit, but we get a cool death animation or... a dress.
    CctsKnC.png Verra-similitude
  • NeliryaNelirya Member, Founder
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Nelirya wrote: »
    I don't really want to start any arguements or anything, but would you at least be open to the idea that "artistic meaningful substance" means different things to different individuals? For me, beautiful dresses and elegant armour designs classes as the above, for others that is too much, clearly.

    The difference is what does it mean to the world, not to the players.
    When you cater to the infinite variability of personal taste, you end up with watered down aesthetics and ridiculousness everywhere.
    Nelirya wrote: »
    As such, is it not better to try finding a good balance between both while keeping as much as possible to the vision of the game, instead of trying to please only one or the other side? So far I can't say that many of the cosmetics have been too radical in either way (other than maybe that Bear mount, but that's again just my personal opinion).

    I just never understand how some individuals kick up a fuss as soon as something doesn't meet their taste 100%.

    It's not that there can't be elegant dresses or anything like that, it's the question of "does the style fit the rest of the game?"

    You wouldn't make a feudal Chinese "Romance of the three kingdoms" inspired game and then accept "Western Tuxedo" cosmetics because some players like tuxedos. They don't fit the feudal chinese theme.

    Likewise, does "British Dresses" and "corgi" fit the Sanctum/Verra theme?

    OK sure, makes sense. However, considering royalty is a thing in this game, I don't see why elegance/dresses would be out of place in this game.

    As to your question about "British Dresses" and "corgi" fitting the theme - I don't know. But, seeming as they decided to put it into their game, I can only assume they do believe it does.

    Anyway like I said, I'm not interested in getting into any arguements here. I have expressed my opinion on the matter, so I am happy to leave it at that :smile:
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  • DreohDreoh Member
    edited April 10
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Dreoh wrote: »
    It's not that there can't be elegant dresses or anything like that, it's the question of "does the style fit the rest of the game?"

    Did you not disagree with me a few days ago when I thought the ashes death was less realistic than I thought they were going for?

    I mean I agree with you here too, but it seems like the same thing to me. The DEV team decides to reduce realism in favor of a gain in creativity. Immersion takes a hit, but we get a cool death animation or... a dress.

    Well, the difference here is that the death animation had a lore reason that fit, or seemed to fit, pre-established lore and might have been an intention from the start. That was also more of an argument on "level of fantastical elements" than of style.
    It very well might have been something of what I will call "Theme creep" (an alternative to "feature creep"), but the reason for adding it fit very well with what we know of the lore already. I do agree with you that it can be subjective.

    Some of the cosmetics (in our limited knowledge of the game and lore) seem to be all over the place. Though it's very possible they were always an intention and part of the original Art Bible.

    I'm not saying they are falling to "Theme creep", just that I'm worried they are. My point is that we don't know and just that I am hoping they aren't.

    Edit: If the death animation had been "They turn to stone and crumble because it looks cool" then I would have been completely against it, because how does that fit into anything we've seen so far?

    Edit2:
    Nelirya wrote: »
    As to your question about "British Dresses" and "corgi" fitting the theme - I don't know. But, seeming as they decided to put it into their game, I can only assume they do believe it does.

    Just to be clear, I don't really mind the corgi cosmetic pack too much and it's not as extreme as I'm making it out to be, I'm just using it as an example since it's the cosmetic pack that seems to be pushing at the seams the most. It could very well have always been a part of Sanctum culture and we just aren't aware of that lore yet.
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